Upcoming Xaku Changes: Round 2!

[Ying-Ko]

В 29.09.2020 в 18:00, [DE]Danielle сказал:

The Vast Untime: 

The changes we made to The Vast Untime in Round 1 have been very well received and we echo your sentiment that it is in a good spot in its current state. With that said, no further changes are planned for this round. Go forth and Untime Vastly!

Why Xaku need s/his armor if s/he better without it...?

Maybe increase the armor?
Maybe "The Vast Untime" will reduce the armor by 50%?
Maybe change the passive ability to a light version of "Rolling Guard"?

[quxier]

14 minutes ago, Ying-Ko said:

Maybe change the passive ability to a light version of "Rolling Guard"?

I have suggested "better" version of Rolling guard:
you have 2 states: rolling (dashing in Xaku's case) and everything else

when you are not rolling, you have 25% damage reduction

when you are rolling, you have 50% damage reduction
the Vast untime gives you 50% damage reduction (so 75% while not rolling and 100% while rolling)
after you finish rolling you still get damage reduction of the "rolling state" for some short amount of time (e.g. < 1 second). Something like the Wisp: she is invisible in the air but when she touches the ground she is still invisible for short amount of time.

This would make it work for your damage reduction not RNG & weak 75%.

[chaotea]

On 2020-10-25 at 6:40 AM, vanaukas said:

possible eximus units since is steel path and eximus units spawns like hell with infested

Someone said its to do with Ancient Disruptors.

[Electropuncher]

I haven't dug through the fourteen pages of comments at this time, but I would hope that the changes for Grasp and Accuse to not override the current function Grasp. The way I use it right now is that I have range maxed (or as close to as I can get) so I take 15 guns. I use this to disarm, in addition to have my gun-satellites. I'm hoping that Grasp will top off my guns, but also that subsequent casts will replace the ones that I have, with a first in first out order. Practical example. I'm in Hydron, and I cast Grasp as soon as enemies spawn. I get maybe two void objects. So I cast it again when they get closer, and I max out at my fifteen. But now there are 25 more enemies, so I cast it again twice. The first time, I take fifteen guns, which replace the other fifteen I had. The second cast replaces ten of the fifteen I have orbiting me, and the timers go accordingly. Basically, I don't want to be topped off on guns and have the "Ability Not Ready" warning pop up.

Take the above use case and apply it to Accuse, though Accuse may be a little bit more general in its use case.

The Vast Untime does have cosmetic a unique cosmetic issue. Maybe make it so a random "set" stays on. For those of you who haven't seen the concept art: I'm defining "set" as the parts colored by the primary, secondary, or tertiary color. Perhaps even give it some sort of bonus, but I'd probably leave it as purely cosmetic. Xaku's already got the problem of too many modes. Another issue I have with it is that the sound effect for when it expires is very subtle. In a firefight, it's almost entirely inaudible, and I'm not really watching myself, since I'm usually not shooting at me. Perhaps even the parts of my armor zooming back onto me, but I really think just making that sound effect a little more noticeable would do wonders.

I will say, round one made Xaku one of my more favorite frames lately, as the design is really starting to come together. Just the basic QoL adjustments at this stage seem like they would be enough. I've even gotten used to cycling through The Lost. It does still have a bit of an oddity, but with the expanded utility of the other abilities, they actually kind of fit together. As a heavy critic of the original release, I can safely say that this ended up being a pretty good design. You have basically three varieties of not necessarily crowd control (though two do provide that), but ways of softening enemies. I honestly think Defy is the single most underrated ability in Xaku's broad kit. Deal a ton of damage, take anything hit by it out of the fight for a LONG time. I think people see this as "hit with beam, kill," when it's really more of a "This Juggernaut is annoying me on Steel Path. I'm gonna knock it out of the fight and come back to it when I care about it. Also, I'm gonna chunk its health with this." Meanwhile, people overestimate the value of Gaze. I've been saying it a lot lately, but I'll say it again. Armor stripping is not the best way to deal with enemies. It's useful for sure, but rather than make your guns deal 90% more damage, why not have 900% more guns?

[quxier]

12 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

why not have 900% more guns?

Visuals and sounds of this would be nightmare. Imagine even 100 guns shooting. People even complain about the sound it makes now.

[Messkoo]

When will it come in game ?

[Vahenir]

1 minute ago, Messkoo said:

When will it come in game ?

I'm really starting to wonder that was well. I hope they haven't quietly scrapped these changes due to some reason. 

[Electropuncher]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Visuals and sounds of this would be nightmare. Imagine even 100 guns shooting. People even complain about the sound it makes now.

(900%+100%) of 1 is 10... And yes, running 15 guns (my current number) does kind of deep fry the audio on Switch. Getting corrupted in a rift makes me have... like... I think it's 25 guns? I dunno, the ring of guns around me gets pretty stupid and I look like a Xmas tree.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

(900%+100%) of 1 is 10

at minimum it's 6, so 9 * 6 = 54.
It would be fine if per X guns it would just change appearance. For example you have max N = 5 guns, With X firerate and/or Y power. Grabbing more than N guns won't add more guns. Each added guns add 1/N to the firerate/power (X = X + 1/N AND/OR Y = Y + 1/N). When you have 2*N guns, your guns will change appearance (getting bigger, wider or something). This happens again at 3*N, 4*N etc.

[Electropuncher]

@quxier I was not specifically referring to Grasp of Lohk's actual stats, I meant you have one in hand, and rather than make your enemy take 90% more damage, why not have 9 more guns.

[F3dElian87]

Zzzzzz Stil waiting for that... It's unplayable xaku, I can't use a "Gaze" because the weapons (stolen with Grasp of Lohk) are aimed at the enemy with gray life, that really hurts...

[quxier]

6 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I was not specifically referring to Grasp of Lohk's actual stats, I meant you have one in hand, and rather than make your enemy take 90% more damage, why not have 9 more guns.

Well, I explained how I would see "the more gun" that would be visually, non-game breaking (bugs or useless stuffs) and be some stats-upgrade as well.

[Electropuncher]

15 hours ago, F3dElian87 said:

Zzzzzz Stil waiting for that... It's unplayable xaku, I can't use a "Gaze" because the weapons (stolen with Grasp of Lohk) are aimed at the enemy with gray life, that really hurts...

Eh, Gaze is by far the most overrated ability in the kit. It's not too bad if you do it from far away. That said, yeah, what is the hold-up?

[F3dElian87]

hace 9 horas, (NSW)Electropuncher dijo:

Eh, Gaze is by far the most overrated ability in the kit. It's not too bad if you do it from far away. That said, yeah, what is the hold-up?

overrated? leaving enemies completely unarmored, seems overrated to you?... Gaze has a certain area and I like to play melee almost all the time, so that's exactly the problem.

[AnemicLeech]

Are the Xaku changes still going to happen? it's been a month and we just received a decent size update with the Nezha PA but still no sign of this rework. Has Xaku already been forgotten?

[quxier]

51 minutes ago, AnemicLeech said:

Are the Xaku changes still going to happen? it's been a month and we just received a decent size update with the Nezha PA but still no sign of this rework. Has Xaku already been forgotten?

Yeah, are they going to consider more changes? Or ETA maybe (any info would be nice)?

[PsiWarp]

Looks like they are saving round 2 for Deimos Arcana, and maybe to gather more feedback from console players who got them a few weeks ago.

[Electropuncher]

15 hours ago, F3dElian87 said:

overrated? leaving enemies completely unarmored, seems overrated to you?... Gaze has a certain area and I like to play melee almost all the time, so that's exactly the problem.

I didn't say bad. I said overrated. It's still very useful, but every single video I've seen about Xaku pines for the ability to have 100% defense strip when 50% isn't something to scoff at. And again, there are two other abilities in The Lost that also are really, REALLY strong. Accuse can basically make a room fight amongst itself and Deny is really good at removing a line of enemies from the fight (if it doesn't outright kill them). Having an AOE armor strip is really great, but out of those abilities, it's really not as impressive. Especially since you also have a radial disarm baked into your kit that ALSO gives you melee guns.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

I didn't say bad. I said overrated. It's still very useful, but every single video I've seen about Xaku pines for the ability to have 100% defense strip when 50% isn't something to scoff at. And again, there are two other abilities in The Lost that also are really, REALLY strong. Accuse can basically make a room fight amongst itself and Deny is really good at removing a line of enemies from the fight (if it doesn't outright kill them). Having an AOE armor strip is really great, but out of those abilities, it's really not as impressive. Especially since you also have a radial disarm baked into your kit that ALSO gives you melee guns.

I agree that you don't need 100% armor strip (no need for 200% strength, imho, around 150% Strength you start to see difference). However the Lost has some problems.
- (1) hold/tap is not great for all the Lost abilities (e.g. you can use hold-key to use the Gaze but shooting from the Deny should be on-tap... at least if you want use it with Grasp's guns)

- Accuse enemies dies easily

- Deny just kills enemies

- ... unless they are very strong

- .... and/or you don't have enough gun

- and both costs 75 energy... that's too much

And here, Gaze just works. You select it, and put it on some spot and forget. No need change abilities and the cost is good.

If they at least change 1-key: tap = Deny | hold = Xata's whisper \\\ 3-key: tap = Accuse | hold = Gaze THEN it would be nice (or at least more usable). In my opinion people just pick one skill from the 3 and use it. I, myself, rarely use 3rd ability. Sometimes I Accuse enemies to have a little breath. And Gaze... if I'm not moving much.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

Overall I think Xaku is pretty good and I like how their abilities work together. However my main complaint with them is that, much like Mag, they may feel fairly fun and dynamic in low level content, but in high level content they become a one-trick pony. It seems the only thing that really allows Xaku to scale is the defense reduction from Gaze. The problem though is that the base value for the this is very low at only 50%. Let's say you use Transient Fortitude. For a very expensive mod that takes up 16 capacity and costs you 27.5% ability duration, that only gets the armor reduction to 77%. That's not great. Due to the way damage reduction from armor scales, even with 77% armor removed, high level enemies like heavy gunners can still be very tough. And to top it all off, this only applies to enemies in a relatively small area. I know you can Gaze two enemies at a time to stack the defense reduction multiplicatively, but frankly that's a lot of effort to just kill a handful of enemies that happen to be nearby while everyone else continues to shoot at you from range while completely unaffected. Even with two Gazed enemies stacked, your stolen guns are going to struggle to do much of anything. It all just feels so pointless and ineffective, so much work for so little reward. So then you are forced to start piling on the ability strength. Either you take up 3 mod slots to get to 200% ability strength, or you use Blind Rage and kill your efficiency, which then requires another two mod slots and an arcane to correct (because I refuse to play with 45% effeciency and have to drop an energy pizza every 30 seconds).

The base range increase planed for gaze is good, but please consider increasing the base defense reduction to 70%. Other frames like Nyx, Ember, and Banshee are able to fully strip enemy defenses much more easily than Xaku, with much less ability strength required. The end result for Xaku is a frustrating numbers game on an inflexible build that doesn't really allow you to mod the way you want. The effort and planning it takes to set up a Gazed enemy in a strategic location and draw other enemies into it in order to benefit from the defense reduction should be rewarded. Currently that effort is not being rewarded, because the base value is just too low.

[Electropuncher]

I'm breezing through Steel Path with Xaku. *shrug* Like I said, range is their key stat due to the sheer overwhelming volume of guns from Grasp. At least, that's what works for me. Xata's Whisper is really good at making your enemies not shoot at you. Infested don't have any real defenses to speak of, so I'm finding them easy pickins. 

[quxier]

6 hours ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

So then you are forced to start piling on the ability strength. Either you take up 3 mod slots to get to 200% ability strength, or you use Blind Rage and kill your efficiency, which then requires another two mod slots and an arcane to correct (because I refuse to play with 45% effeciency and have to drop an energy pizza every 30 seconds).

Umbra Intensify (maxed) with equipped Umbra vitality + Transient fortitude (-2) make it into 200% strength. You get around -22.5% duration, but you might put Primed continuity to get 130ish% duration.

It requires a lot of effort to "get it work". Afair, I've spent 5 forma (2 umbras) and I think it might need another one.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Grasp of lokh guns has a collision bug, when they have high number they clip/sink in ground and ceiling, unable to fire since they line on one side.

@[DE]Danielle Could you change it to have collision and/or have guns arc over the warframe instead.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Umbra Intensify (maxed) with equipped Umbra vitality + Transient fortitude (-2) make it into 200% strength. You get around -22.5% duration, but you might put Primed continuity to get 130ish% duration.

It requires a lot of effort to "get it work". Afair, I've spent 5 forma (2 umbras) and I think it might need another one.

But see that’s my point. Whether you use that combo, or you use Transient Fortitude + Intensify + Power Drift, or Blind Range + Streamline + Fleeting Expertise. Either way it takes a lot of mods just to get the armor strip up to a point where it actually really matters. It makes their build very inflexible. And why even go through all that effort when I can just use my Plague Keewar to rip enemies to shreds without it? It’s just not worth the effort.

If the base defense reduction was 70%, you could get over 100% just with Transient Fortitude or even just max rank Umbral Intensify without other Umbral mods. It would allow the build to be more flexible and not such a precarious game of numbers balancing.

[quxier]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

But see that’s my point. Whether you use that combo, or you use Transient Fortitude + Intensify + Power Drift, or Blind Range + Streamline + Fleeting Expertise. Either way it takes a lot of mods just to get the armor strip up to a point where it actually really matters. It makes their build very inflexible. And why even go through all that effort when I can just use my Plague Keewar to rip enemies to shreds without it? It’s just not worth the effort.

But do you really need 200% strength? Wouldn't 185 be "just fine"? I might be wrong, I'm "kind of new" into this armor stripping but I read on the Ash augment that you even get less damage for some damage types, e.g.corrosive.

I get it that Xaku's builds are not very flexible, however I think you can still have Strength & Efficiency at the same build. And you can have little bit of duration with Primed Continuity (not that you need that much duration).

 

For me the problems are range mods.

You either have 90% range from the Overextended but you need to compensate with strength mods. And to be honest, Lots of abilities needs strength. Maybe Grasp of Lohk(disarming) might be "ok" without strength but would benefit from range.

Or you put 3 mods: Stretch, Augur Reach and Cunning drift. Maybe 1, 3 & 4 don't need much range but if you want to extend Grasp of Lohk range... you need a lot.

36 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

If the base defense reduction was 70%, you could get over 100% just with Transient Fortitude or even just max rank Umbral Intensify without other Umbral mods. It would allow the build to be more flexible and not such a precarious game of numbers balancing.

Sure, but I don't think it would be fair compared to something like Ash's Seeking shuriken. He needs ~2 mods to have 100% armor strip. It takes 25 energy and could effect 2 enemies (as fair I could see). Now, with 70% damage reduction at base, Xaku could affect much more enemies, with the 3x cost.