So why not make everything that's bad...good? (Or at least not so bad)

[Surbusken]

33 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

The wiser course would be to avoid assuming at all...

Assuming they read everything you post is just as conceited as assuming that they don't read any of it at all.

 

Some of the people in this thread have already learned over the years that DE reads their own forums (whether they choose to reply or not) and have acted on any number of suggestions made in them over the years.

Sometimes it works out great... like Excalibur's Exalted Blade, changes to Vauban, changes to Bows, Frost, and any number of other things.

Sometimes it doesn't... Like the (temporary) removal of Manual Blocking, Shark Wing, Xaku, Limitations on launcher ammo, Traps, and a host of other stuff.

All were ideas born from entirely random commentary made from players.

 

You don't know what crazy idea will land with the Devs on a random Tuesday born from player's random comments.

 

You are of course right, the content of my posts doesn't change, from being read or not.

But, what does that have to do with anything?

I believe as to the point in question, it being, "it's all the players's fault", because "the developers only did what the players wanted".

... I feel it's safe to say, reality is the opposite. And from some of the responses in here, it's obviously there problem is living up to what you can reasonably ask people to understand.

Such as the nature of corporate culture or the history of the gaming industry, people in general etc.

The players are not responsible for the state of the game. How could they be?

The developers are in every little thing, even including if they - theoretically - did in fact create the game based on forum posts, it would still be the developers responsibility to not listen in cases they shouldn't have.

If the people in charge don't take responsibility and step up, who even could? It's developer apologism beyond ludicrous.

I will admit yes I do have a somewhat degrading undertone when talking to developer apologists because I feel, how do you explain to someone they are slow or ignorant, in a polite tone? What is the polite version of go read a book, grow up or you have no contact with reality? The school I am from it's on them to man up and I am actually overly babying them.

They are asking for no criticism, I am saying, the only way to make sure you are not an idiot is by seeking out criticism and learning from it.

For example when someone justifies something with "because they said so", then at that point you kind of have to be the one to break the news to that person that might be naive/undereducated/delussional/whatever, and that does make me look like the bad guy.

But who put it on me to have to play dad for what I assume is an adult, is it fair to me, I didn't ask for that job - they put me in that situation then blame me after.

So yes by it's very nature it turns into an ego question for them but from my perspective it's forward thinking feedback; here is the mistake, here is how to improve.

They of course flip out the moment someone doesn't baby them, the same way they try to baby the developers.

I don't think neither should be babied, because you do people no favors lowering the bar for them and reinforcing them in their helplessness. I think they can be smarter like I think the developers can make better decisions.

Pointing that out yes, does have the implication of 'you #*!%ed up', 'you look stupid now' but that's not where I am coming from at all.

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, Surbusken said:

But, what does that have to do with anything?

I believe as to the point in question, it being, "it's all the players's fault", because "the developers only did what the players wanted".

The points in question would be, "Don't say thoughtless things." and "Don't be so foolish as to think that your idea, however dumb, won't resonate with others.".

 

Put simply, don't whine about the problem if you helped create it... It's a simple concept.

 

Truth told, The only thing that matters (once things have gone pear-shaped ) is useful feedback to encourage better results.

Useful feedback, contrary to popular (and rather arrogant) opinion, isn't critique...You simply aren't knowledgeable enough to give critique.

Finger-pointing isn't useful.

 

DE, ultimately, does what they want with their game.

You, ultimately, do what you want with your wallet and your time.

If you don't like what they are doing then spend those resources elsewhere...They'll get the hint eventually.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Hopefully DE doesn't nerf Smite Infusion. It's popular because it comes from Oberon, a frame you are guaranteed to passively get from Eximus units compared to other frames that need to be farmed from a boss or tied to a quest. Not costing bile to infuse and being a decent damage buff make it a no brainer without having to do costly experimentation.

[(XBOX)ParrotTom]

They will in some way eventually. Syndicates, Dex, Wraith, Vandal, Prisma, Prime, a good portion of the armory has a tier above the original. In some cases like the Boltor, the Prime is great for a status build, but **** for a crit build unless you have a good riven while the Telos is the opposite with 50% more ammo. I've been told they're working on Corpus Liches too, so we can expect maybe a Granum Dera or a Granum Lanka. Give it time, no point in upgrading existing weapons when making new/ upgraded versions is more profitable in the long run.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

12 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I will admit yes I do have a somewhat degrading undertone when talking to developer apologists because I feel, how do you explain to someone they are slow or ignorant, in a polite tone? What is the polite version of go read a book, grow up or you have no contact with reality? The school I am from it's on them to man up and I am actually overly babying them.

They are asking for no criticism, I am saying, the only way to make sure you are not an idiot is by seeking out criticism and learning from it.

 

No one is asking for “no criticism”, you just can’t tell the difference between a “developer apologist” and someone who just doesn’t agree with you. Constructive criticism is obviously important, but not everyone has to agree with every critique you give. If someone feels your criticism is unfair or undeserved, they have the right to voice that opinion.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

No one is asking for “no criticism”, you just can’t tell the difference between a “developer apologist” and someone who just doesn’t agree with you. Constructive criticism is obviously important, but not everyone has to agree with every critique you give. If someone feels your criticism is unfair or undeserved, they have the right to voice that opinion.

The problem is that many people who criticise don't actually think through what they've said or what they're asking for. This thread is an example. Like I said before, there'll always be a sepctrum in terms of how "good" gear can be. No matter how good most items are, there'll always be a few that really shine, for one reason or another, and players will always gravitate to that and consider the other gear to be "poor".

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The problem is that many people who criticise don't actually think through what they've said or what they're asking for. This thread is an example. Like I said before, there'll always be a sepctrum in terms of how "good" gear can be. No matter how good most items are, there'll always be a few that really shine, for one reason or another, and players will always gravitate to that and consider the other gear to be "poor".

Yeah that’s all fair, my last post was directed exclusively at one person due to their completely irrational behavior across multiple threads.

[Loza03]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The problem is that many people who criticise don't actually think through what they've said or what they're asking for. This thread is an example. Like I said before, there'll always be a sepctrum in terms of how "good" gear can be. No matter how good most items are, there'll always be a few that really shine, for one reason or another, and players will always gravitate to that and consider the other gear to be "poor".

This is true. However, in healthy games there's usually alternatives that promote different playstyles, or a degree of encouragement for different gear to shine in different places.

Monster Hunter Generations, for example, has the Dragon Spirit/Dragon Heart skill for the Valstrax armour. Niche? To be sure. It's offensive component only works on some weapons (raw damage or dragon weapons), and it's defensive one only on some attacks (specifically, elemental attacks, which not every monster possesses, and which only comprises part of most movesets). But... it's also a multiplicative damage buff which stacks with every other kind of attack buff, and gives you an obscene level of defence towards elemental attacks and flat immunity to all elemental status effects, once you drop below 2/3rds health. Meta? No. Good? Yes.

The Monsters, too, offer a variety of gameplay styles which will benefit certain weapons more than others. Tall monsters will benefit Aerial Style, Insect Glaive and Gunner weapons. Monsters with long windups and huge attacks favour the punishing Greatsword, Hammer or Chargeblade. Slow Monsters give mobile, sustained-damage weapons like Dual Blades, Sword-and-Shield or Longsword the uptime they need, whilst more relentless ones will give defensive juggernauts like the Lance and Gunlance time to shine. 

Almost every playstyle under the general banner that Monster Hunter provides is provided with 'good' gear to work with. Warframe... doesn't. Certain playstyles aren't just less effective, they're not designed for. CC is a common whipping boy, but when was the last time Stealth got it's go? Most boss fights will exclusively favour either raw DPS or tankiness. Even the headlining mobility looks bad once you figure out that most areas in the game are basically flat ground, so just turning up the base movement speed would have the same effect most of the time (and probably give you more control over your character).

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

41 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is true. However, in healthy games there's usually alternatives that promote different playstyles, or a degree of encouragement for different gear to shine in different places.

Monster Hunter Generations, for example, has the Dragon Spirit/Dragon Heart skill for the Valstrax armour. Niche? To be sure. It's offensive component only works on some weapons (raw damage or dragon weapons), and it's defensive one only on some attacks (specifically, elemental attacks, which not every monster possesses, and which only comprises part of most movesets). But... it's also a multiplicative damage buff which stacks with every other kind of attack buff, and gives you an obscene level of defence towards elemental attacks and flat immunity to all elemental status effects, once you drop below 2/3rds health. Meta? No. Good? Yes.

The Monsters, too, offer a variety of gameplay styles which will benefit certain weapons more than others. Tall monsters will benefit Aerial Style, Insect Glaive and Gunner weapons. Monsters with long windups and huge attacks favour the punishing Greatsword, Hammer or Chargeblade. Slow Monsters give mobile, sustained-damage weapons like Dual Blades, Sword-and-Shield or Longsword the uptime they need, whilst more relentless ones will give defensive juggernauts like the Lance and Gunlance time to shine. 

Almost every playstyle under the general banner that Monster Hunter provides is provided with 'good' gear to work with. Warframe... doesn't. Certain playstyles aren't just less effective, they're not designed for. CC is a common whipping boy, but when was the last time Stealth got it's go? Most boss fights will exclusively favour either raw DPS or tankiness. Even the headlining mobility looks bad once you figure out that most areas in the game are basically flat ground, so just turning up the base movement speed would have the same effect most of the time (and probably give you more control over your character).

Stealth is regularly used in endurance runs, boss fights, and stealth missions obviously exist.

Stealth frames obviously aren't gonna "shine" in fast moving nuke pubs like relic captures. 

There are playstyles that are tailored to, you're just having an issue discovering or realizing them, or you're using public matches as a baseline for gameplay, I don't know. Like many games, the issue is also the average players lack of imagination or willingness to actually try something new, communicate, and build a synergistic team. 

An example would be, using a hildryn or EV Trin in ESO, or making defections successful with different setups. 

People fly around with titania, go stealth, use cc, use defense frames, and use tactics other than just running around killing. 

The game isn't balanced around Steel path, so I'm not sure why you're saying anything is less effective, as warframe is easy and why most people say warframe is easy and anything really can be used.

Many tilesets are great for movement as well, but as I said earlier most players don't utilize them, so that's a player issue and not a tileset or movement issue. Most players simply stand in front of spawns and shoot or melee them. 

Also keep in mind that this game actually isn't monster hunter and no one is under any obligation to make them similar. 

[Loza03]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Stealth is regularly used in endurance runs, boss fights, and stealth missions obviously exist.

We can knock stealth missions off because there's spy and rescue - two of the oldest mission types. Orb Vallis does have spy vaults, but that's the first 'new' stealth mission in years AFAIK.

For the other's, it's effectively used identically to tanking, as it requires no alterations to playstyle compared to it - simply press the 'I don't want enemies to react to me' button, as opposed to the 'I don't want to die' button, and continue whaling away at them making as much noise as humanly possible.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

An example would be, using a hildryn or EV Trin in ESO, or making defections successful with different setups. 

Are these comparable to Mesa, Saryn, Equinox or so on in terms of effectiveness? Not 'better than' necessarily, comparable to. 

If not, then they are not 'good' gear. Dragon Spirit, despite how niche it is, is outright banned in certain speedrun settings because of its efficacy, despite the fact that it is clearly niche and not a superior form of gear than most. Likewise, the environments in which these builds is extremely low. Monster Hunter has multiple monsters for each overarching type of Monster, for the sake of Comparision. For every Gore Magala, there's a Rajang and a Gravios. For every Hermitaur there's a Ceanataur or a Diablos. Meanwhile, Nuking and Tanking have been dominant for years and keep getting new content where they're top-dollar or the only viable options. Granum Void, anyone?

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

People fly around with titania, go stealth, use cc, use defense frames, and use tactics other than just running around killing. 

I'm one of them.  And, whilst I'm admittedly biased as a result, I can tell the game is being un-designed for these playstyles. I've personally picked up low-duration Limbo of late over stasis because I finally decided to drop that unhealthy love-hate, but the game seems very eager to not let me use it. Enemies are frequently immune to knockdowns (or even the rift overall), or content requires killing at a much higher rate than a methodical approach allows. Not to mention player EHP variance means recent enemies kill my comparatively tanky Limbo in two seconds of hitscan full-auto.

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The game isn't balanced around Steel path, so I'm not sure why you're saying anything is less effective, as warframe is easy and why most people say warframe is easy and anything really can be used.

I didn't mention Steel Path. I've held this opinion since long before it was even announced. Warframe is poorly balanced. Irrespective of difficulty - I don't care if the game is easy or hard, I care if it's consistently interesting and engaging to play, as a build-crafting looter shooter RPG and as an action game.

Besides, as I was originally referring to, even if anything CAN be used does not mean that it'll attract people. As said above, I could use minimum duration Limbo to beat, for example, the recent Umbra Forma alert (which was effectively high level eximus defence). After two tries I gave up, however, because it was a miserable process and the infinitely less engaging option that I'd used a thousand times before was infinitely more effective, and sitting there as Mesa spamming energy pads whenever I ran out of Peacemaker juice likely would have been as well.  

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Many tilesets are great for movement as well, but as I said earlier most players don't utilize them, so that's a player issue and not a tileset or movement issue. Most players simply stand in front of spawns and shoot or melee them. 

They're not. Simply put, they're not. If 'stand in front of spawns and shoot/melee them' is the most effective strategy, then it is not great for movement, simple as that. No ifs ands or buts - having mobility and being large does not mean a game is great for mobility.

Even beyond that, a lot of the tilesets commonly called out as 'great for movement' aren't for the kind of Movement Warframe uses. Warframe attempts to simulate Parkour - in other words, it's an enhanced mobility game. However, most of the rooms in most of the tilesets are effectively flat planes - even Gas City is guilty of this. This leads to one of the major complaints about the movement system, that it's a repetitive 'bullet jump all day long' kind of situation. Without stuff to jump on or over, having advanced jumping mechanics, wall-running/hopping, sliding or so forth is pointless.

Spoiler

 

All of the games here are dramatically different to one another in a variety of ways (Ghostrunner is more of a platformer at least in the Demo, Titanfall 2 is PvP first though it does have a PvE element, and DOOM Eternal is a boomer shooter), however what they all have in common are complex environments with multiple levels, enemies which reward mobility through projectiles instead of hitscan (It's not shown in TF2, but most of the weapons are projectile-based there as well) and interaction with the environment is key to mastering speed.

Even before we consider Wukong and Titania, Warframe is not that. Again, rooms are spacious but flat and (especially recently), usually very open with few obstacles. Enemies are too often Hitscan or use homing projectiles, and even Bullet Jump locks you at a very particular speed and arc. Even if you do get some speed up, you can't carry that into something else. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Also keep in mind that this game actually isn't monster hunter and no one is under any obligation to make them similar. 

Their action game elements, of course not. But bear in mind, both games are also action RPG's - even if the action part is drastically different, there's still lessons that can be learned from the RPG part.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

We can knock stealth missions off because there's spy and rescue - two of the oldest mission types. Orb Vallis does have spy vaults, but that's the first 'new' stealth mission in years AFAIK.

For the other's, it's effectively used identically to tanking, as it requires no alterations to playstyle compared to it - simply press the 'I don't want enemies to react to me' button, as opposed to the 'I don't want to die' button, and continue whaling away at them making as much noise as humanly possible.

Are these comparable to Mesa, Saryn, Equinox or so on in terms of effectiveness? Not 'better than' necessarily, comparable to. 

If not, then they are not 'good' gear. Dragon Spirit, despite how niche it is, is outright banned in certain speedrun settings because of its efficacy, despite the fact that it is clearly niche and not a superior form of gear than most. Likewise, the environments in which these builds is extremely low. Monster Hunter has multiple monsters for each overarching type of Monster, for the sake of Comparision. For every Gore Magala, there's a Rajang and a Gravios. For every Hermitaur there's a Ceanataur or a Diablos. Meanwhile, Nuking and Tanking have been dominant for years and keep getting new content where they're top-dollar or the only viable options. Granum Void, anyone?

I'm one of them.  And, whilst I'm admittedly biased as a result, I can tell the game is being un-designed for these playstyles. I've personally picked up low-duration Limbo of late over stasis because I finally decided to drop that unhealthy love-hate, but the game seems very eager to not let me use it. Enemies are frequently immune to knockdowns (or even the rift overall), or content requires killing at a much higher rate than a methodical approach allows. Not to mention player EHP variance means recent enemies kill my comparatively tanky Limbo in two seconds of hitscan full-auto.

I didn't mention Steel Path. I've held this opinion since long before it was even announced. Warframe is poorly balanced. Irrespective of difficulty - I don't care if the game is easy or hard, I care if it's consistently interesting and engaging to play, as a build-crafting looter shooter RPG and as an action game.

Besides, as I was originally referring to, even if anything CAN be used does not mean that it'll attract people. As said above, I could use minimum duration Limbo to beat, for example, the recent Umbra Forma alert (which was effectively high level eximus defence). After two tries I gave up, however, because it was a miserable process and the infinitely less engaging option that I'd used a thousand times before was infinitely more effective, and sitting there as Mesa spamming energy pads whenever I ran out of Peacemaker juice likely would have been as well.  

They're not. Simply put, they're not. If 'stand in front of spawns and shoot/melee them' is the most effective strategy, then it is not great for movement, simple as that. No ifs ands or buts - having mobility and being large does not mean a game is great for mobility.

Even beyond that, a lot of the tilesets commonly called out as 'great for movement' aren't for the kind of Movement Warframe uses. Warframe attempts to simulate Parkour - in other words, it's an enhanced mobility game. However, most of the rooms in most of the tilesets are effectively flat planes - even Gas City is guilty of this. This leads to one of the major complaints about the movement system, that it's a repetitive 'bullet jump all day long' kind of situation. Without stuff to jump on or over, having advanced jumping mechanics, wall-running/hopping, sliding or so forth is pointless.

  Hide contents

 

All of the games here are dramatically different to one another in a variety of ways (Ghostrunner is more of a platformer at least in the Demo, Titanfall 2 is PvP first though it does have a PvE element, and DOOM Eternal is a boomer shooter), however what they all have in common are complex environments with multiple levels, enemies which reward mobility through projectiles instead of hitscan (It's not shown in TF2, but most of the weapons are projectile-based there as well) and interaction with the environment is key to mastering speed.

Even before we consider Wukong and Titania, Warframe is not that. Again, rooms are spacious but flat and (especially recently), usually very open with few obstacles. Enemies are too often Hitscan or use homing projectiles, and even Bullet Jump locks you at a very particular speed and arc. Even if you do get some speed up, you can't carry that into something else. 

Their action game elements, of course not. But bear in mind, both games are also action RPG's - even if the action part is drastically different, there's still lessons that can be learned from the RPG part.

IMO this is a really solid demonstration of how Warframe, a game I still think is very good, falls so far short of its enormous potential. I love it all the same, but man it could be so much better.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

For the other's, it's effectively used identically to tanking, as it requires no alterations to playstyle compared to it - simply press the 'I don't want enemies to react to me' button, as opposed to the 'I don't want to die' button, and continue whaling away at them making as much noise as humanly possible.

Especially with the changes to detection that enemies received a while back, getting spotted from 30+m away or while on the rafters of a room is now commonplace which only pushes the need for invisibility buttons even further.

Stealth has been a mess for a fairly long time, it has gotten to the point where silent weapons get noticed because enemies will see a dead enemy and INSTANTLY know where you are if you aren't invisible.

On the topic of "stealth" being used in Endurance runs, it isn't "stealth" it is invisibility to not get 1-shot nuked because the A.I. can't shoot at what it doesn't see and Loza is completely right about Stealth currently just being a button you press rather than a series of actions that you take to not get noticed.

The only functional stealth left in the game is getting around security cameras and laser fences, and even those are laughed at by Ivara.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Especially with the changes to detection that enemies received a while back, getting spotted from 30+m away or while on the rafters of a room is now commonplace which only pushes the need for invisibility buttons even further.

Stealth has been a mess for a fairly long time, it has gotten to the point where silent weapons get noticed because enemies will see a dead enemy and INSTANTLY know where you are if you aren't invisible.

On the topic of "stealth" being used in Endurance runs, it isn't "stealth" it is invisibility to not get 1-shot nuked because the A.I. can't shoot at what it doesn't see and Loza is completely right about Stealth currently just being a button you press rather than a series of actions that you take to not get noticed.

The only functional stealth left in the game is getting around security cameras and laser fences, and even those are laughed at by Ivara.

WARNING: MEME POST

Spoiler

 

Enemies looking for the Warframe playing death metal and constantly firing a minigun loaded with explosive rounds, but just happens to be transparent:

Enemies when a Warframe is silently assassinating someone in a different base:

 

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Almost every playstyle under the general banner that Monster Hunter provides is provided with 'good' gear to work with. Warframe... doesn't. Certain playstyles aren't just less effective, they're not designed for. CC is a common whipping boy, but when was the last time Stealth got it's go? Most boss fights will exclusively favour either raw DPS or tankiness. Even the headlining mobility looks bad once you figure out that most areas in the game are basically flat ground, so just turning up the base movement speed would have the same effect most of the time (and probably give you more control over your character).

Most of what you said in the post is fine, and I believe I see what you mean by this part, but I'm curious as to how one designs a boss battle in a squad-based looter-shooter to favour stealth while permitting other play-styles? I mean the thing that popped into my head was literally a ninja sneaking in the shadows and bouncing from walls, slipping through a window, only to find that the target had been eliminated by his other 3 teammates, who were now arguing over how to divide the spoils.

Kinda like:

Spoiler

http://www.blastwave-comic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=40  

 

 

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

Because grindframe want their players to never stop grinding and to not have fun. Unless you like never ending grinds. Then this games for you.

[Guiver909]

 

On 2020-10-20 at 4:37 PM, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

 For Weapons

Because you will make new player experience even worse.

Rather than getting a sense of progression acquiring stronger and stronger weapons, everything they get in the beginning will be just as string as what they'll get in the end. That's bad game design for a game meant to last a long time. You want Dera to be better? Wait for a Dera from Parvos' Sexy Lawyer Harem.

 

For Warframe Abilities

1. Outside of obvious outliers, Peacemakers being OP, all non-scaling nukes without further utility being trash, Noise Arrow being a useless gimmick, and Boost Pad also being useless, a lot of abilities stand in a subjective middle ground.

Take Mindcontrol for example, it's pretty worthless most of the time, but it's actually pretty useful in non-corpus solo missions.

 

2. For those who are obviously weak, DE does buff them. They just take a long time. For some it's because they're on Warframe's like Nekros and Mesa who need a full on overhaul. For others people just never brought them to attention.

 

The weapons themselves aren't the progression the mods are the progression.the star chart has no sense progression when you get the Hek literally at the start of the game that can destroy everything in the whole game let alone star chart.Do we play the same game?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2020-10-21 at 3:10 PM, Loza03 said:

We can knock stealth missions off because there's spy and rescue - two of the oldest mission types. Orb Vallis does have spy vaults, but that's the first 'new' stealth mission in years AFAIK.

For the other's, it's effectively used identically to tanking, as it requires no alterations to playstyle compared to it - simply press the 'I don't want enemies to react to me' button, as opposed to the 'I don't want to die' button, and continue whaling away at them making as much noise as humanly possible.

Are these comparable to Mesa, Saryn, Equinox or so on in terms of effectiveness? Not 'better than' necessarily, comparable to. 

If not, then they are not 'good' gear. Dragon Spirit, despite how niche it is, is outright banned in certain speedrun settings because of its efficacy, despite the fact that it is clearly niche and not a superior form of gear than most. Likewise, the environments in which these builds is extremely low. Monster Hunter has multiple monsters for each overarching type of Monster, for the sake of Comparision. For every Gore Magala, there's a Rajang and a Gravios. For every Hermitaur there's a Ceanataur or a Diablos. Meanwhile, Nuking and Tanking have been dominant for years and keep getting new content where they're top-dollar or the only viable options. Granum Void, anyone?

I'm one of them.  And, whilst I'm admittedly biased as a result, I can tell the game is being un-designed for these playstyles. I've personally picked up low-duration Limbo of late over stasis because I finally decided to drop that unhealthy love-hate, but the game seems very eager to not let me use it. Enemies are frequently immune to knockdowns (or even the rift overall), or content requires killing at a much higher rate than a methodical approach allows. Not to mention player EHP variance means recent enemies kill my comparatively tanky Limbo in two seconds of hitscan full-auto.

I didn't mention Steel Path. I've held this opinion since long before it was even announced. Warframe is poorly balanced. Irrespective of difficulty - I don't care if the game is easy or hard, I care if it's consistently interesting and engaging to play, as a build-crafting looter shooter RPG and as an action game.

Besides, as I was originally referring to, even if anything CAN be used does not mean that it'll attract people. As said above, I could use minimum duration Limbo to beat, for example, the recent Umbra Forma alert (which was effectively high level eximus defence). After two tries I gave up, however, because it was a miserable process and the infinitely less engaging option that I'd used a thousand times before was infinitely more effective, and sitting there as Mesa spamming energy pads whenever I ran out of Peacemaker juice likely would have been as well.  

They're not. Simply put, they're not. If 'stand in front of spawns and shoot/melee them' is the most effective strategy, then it is not great for movement, simple as that. No ifs ands or buts - having mobility and being large does not mean a game is great for mobility.

Even beyond that, a lot of the tilesets commonly called out as 'great for movement' aren't for the kind of Movement Warframe uses. Warframe attempts to simulate Parkour - in other words, it's an enhanced mobility game. However, most of the rooms in most of the tilesets are effectively flat planes - even Gas City is guilty of this. This leads to one of the major complaints about the movement system, that it's a repetitive 'bullet jump all day long' kind of situation. Without stuff to jump on or over, having advanced jumping mechanics, wall-running/hopping, sliding or so forth is pointless.

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All of the games here are dramatically different to one another in a variety of ways (Ghostrunner is more of a platformer at least in the Demo, Titanfall 2 is PvP first though it does have a PvE element, and DOOM Eternal is a boomer shooter), however what they all have in common are complex environments with multiple levels, enemies which reward mobility through projectiles instead of hitscan (It's not shown in TF2, but most of the weapons are projectile-based there as well) and interaction with the environment is key to mastering speed.

Even before we consider Wukong and Titania, Warframe is not that. Again, rooms are spacious but flat and (especially recently), usually very open with few obstacles. Enemies are too often Hitscan or use homing projectiles, and even Bullet Jump locks you at a very particular speed and arc. Even if you do get some speed up, you can't carry that into something else. 

Their action game elements, of course not. But bear in mind, both games are also action RPG's - even if the action part is drastically different, there's still lessons that can be learned from the RPG part.

Yea those are fair observations. I don't have an issue with them personally though as I like warframe how it is at the moment. 

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

One word: Progression.