Limit Transference?

[TnaneverRisen]

We are able to transfer between operator and warframe instantly, without limit, at the same time healing your operator and/or warframe without limit (using arcanes), and also allows for both operator and warframe to be invincible at will (using operator stealth) - this tremendously trivializes much content and takes away the opportunity for various builds and strategies to shine.  In a very good way, playing the game felt very different before having transference unlocked.

I think there should be some sort of cooldown between repeated transference activations, and probably an additional penalty cooldown if you "die" in operator form.  The current health temporary penalty for dying in operator form is almost meaningless, especially with shield gating...and the fact you can just transfer out again immediately and stealth anyway.

In addition, the fact that warframes are entirely invincible during operator form is ridiculous (but there may not be a good way around this without hurting gameplay).  Maybe players should have to be careful where their warframe is parked, instead of insta-transference + stealth + heal at a few button presses.

Regardless, please enhance the transference aspect as an additional layer of gameplay that requires tactics and build planning, instead of at-will brainless button presses that can save you at any time.  

[(PSN)isbergen]

This would destroy eidolon hunts, where your operator is the only form of damage to shields. How about you just don't use operator if you feel it's a cheese and stop calling for (more) nerfs that affect everyone because you don't like it. SMDH.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

I have to agree, just don't use the operator. You also have to remember that a lot of the healing the operators can do comes from arcanes that take a lot of time to get. They are a utility, they don't need to be used if you don't want to use them.

[TnaneverRisen]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

I have to agree, just don't use the operator. You also have to remember that a lot of the healing the operators can do comes from arcanes that take a lot of time to get. They are a utility, they don't need to be used if you don't want to use them.

You seem to be missing the point of good game design.  No feature in a game should trivialize the rest of the game.  The whole point of a game like this is to give challenges to the player - that's why there are things like shields, health, and damage from enemies.  If you just want to see numbers go up, don't play Warframe and just go watch some twitch streams or something.  I want to actually play the game and use my skills and knowledge to beat the challenges - good games shouldn't allow for core gameplay to be bypassed just by players effectively using what's in the game.

I have the arcanes for healing.  It doesn't take a lot of time to get.  You could just trade platinum for them.  You don't even need arcanes to use instant-invincibility from operator form.  The healing arcanes should be a strategic choice.  Not a free I-Win button.
 

[Unimira]

The energy you have in operator is supposed to be the limiting factor since you have to be in stealth to not die (anything will one-shot you at high levels).

I see Transference as a band-aid to deal with other game flaws (unavoidable damage and poor durability scaling on most frames, lack of healing etc.). It's possible to mod some frames for near immortality but Transference increases the number of viable frames, nerfing it without touching anything else would decrease options and make missions take longer since you would have to be much more careful. Try to complete a Grineer Steel Path mission without an immortal or stealthed frame while not using operator, it's doable but very annoying.

Losing void dash mobility would also hurt.

Basically I don't see how nerfing operators makes the game any more fun, if you want the extra challenge then create it yourself by limiting your own use. If the changes comes as a part of a complete game rebalance that actually improved gameplay (even if it made it more challenging) I would be all for it but in the current game it just increases annoyances.

[TnaneverRisen]

1 minute ago, Unimira said:

The energy you have in operator is supposed to be the limiting factor since you have to be in stealth to not die (anything will one-shot you at high levels).

I see Transference as a band-aid to deal with other game flaws (unavoidable damage and poor durability scaling on most frames, lack of healing etc.). It's possible to mod some frames for near immortality but Transference increases the number of viable frames, nerfing it without touching anything else would decrease options and make missions take longer since you would have to be much more careful. Try to complete a Grineer Steel Path mission without an immortal or stealthed frame while not using operator, it's doable but very annoying.

Losing void dash mobility would also hurt.

Basically I don't see how nerfing operators makes the game any more fun, if you want the extra challenge then create it yourself by limiting your own use. If the changes comes as a part of a complete game rebalance that actually improved gameplay (even if it made it more challenging) I would be all for it but in the current game it just increases annoyances.

Finally, a person with a brain that replied to me.  What a relief.

I agree with the general issues with the game.  That also needs to be fixed.  In the meantime, there needs to be some sort of penalty for playing like a drunk careless idiot.  Something like, a stacking reduction in operator energy regeneration for each transferrance, that wears off over a reasonable amount of time.

[Voltage]

I don't see how nerfing Operators would change the game in a positive way. Especially with the laziest nerf: cooldowns. 

The problems this game has with "easy mode" "invincibility" "unlimited X" comes from the broken energy economy, extremely weak enemies, and the nonsense you can do with shield gating. The root cause of your feedback is well past Operators.

What players in Warframe seem to miss is how foundational most of the issues the game has are. They usually lead back to structural issues like Modding (this includes Arcanes), Energy, Health, Enemy scaling, Status effects, etc.

[TheLexiConArtist]

I feel like I've fielded this before.

1. You'd have to rework Eidolons gratuitously.
2. You'd have to probably change up Profit Taker now you can't just pop in and out to change its weaknesses easily.
3. You'd impede all the other utilities an Operator provides to the Frame (+ others) such as the Energising Dash which doesn't even spawn all the time, the mobility, the healing in Vazarin, etc. Most of these implicitly don't require staying in Operator, they're executed with a quick weave in and out.
4. Many Warframes don't actually get to be fully immune because if they have active abilities (channels, buffs) they only get 90% damage resistance.
5. Leaving your frame is now a liability because it may be suffering fatal DoT effects when you jump back in, and now you can't just hop back out to give them time to expire.
6. Leaving a frame which remains vulnerable is now an immense liability because if it force 'kills' the operator by sustaining enough damage to the Warframe, you can't even get a chance to react and save your Frame by Transferring back out. And you can't just keep re-positioning your sitting duck of a frame either, because of the cooldown.
7. Stacking on-death delays from what it sounds like, indefinitely between ongoing uses of Transference throughout a mission instance, is stupid. This only punishes people already not successfully trivialising matters, while the successful you're complaining about still get away with it. Also arbitrarily limiting for missions where you're just taking longer in an instance, such as spending extended times out in the open zones.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

2 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

I want to actually play the game and use my skills and knowledge to beat the challenges - good games shouldn't allow for core gameplay to be bypassed just by players effectively using what's in the game.

Lol wut?

You can use your skills. Just don't use the operators. It's like saying, "Hey I want to put a nail in the wall but using a hammer makes it too easy. I'll just use my fist of skills while only using the hammer for one hit."

And what core gameplay? Getting shot? Shooting? Pretty sure I can bypass both without even using the opperator.

[TnaneverRisen]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Lol wut?

You can use your skills. Just don't use the operators. It's like saying, "Hey I want to put a nail in the wall but using a hammer makes it too easy. I'll just use my fist of skills while only using the hammer for one hit."

And what core gameplay? Getting shot? Shooting? Pretty sure I can bypass both without even using the opperator.

Lol wat??? You think good game design is forcing players to play sub-optimally just so the game doesn't break?  Wow.

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I don't see how nerfing Operators would change the game in a positive way. Especially with the laziest nerf: cooldowns. 

The problems this game has with "easy mode" "invincibility" "unlimited X" comes from the broken energy economy, extremely weak enemies, and the nonsense you can do with shield gating. The root cause of your feedback is well past Operators.

What players in Warframe seem to miss is how foundational most of the issues the game has are. They usually lead back to structural issues like Modding (this includes Arcanes), Energy, Health, Enemy scaling, Status effects, etc.

All those issues seem to be just in addition to the operator problem.  Those should be fixed too, of course.

...but let's say they were fixed.  Let's say enemies were interesting and challenging, shield gating was rebalanced, etc.  How would it still be ok to have instant invincibility at-will, completely negating all sorts of gameplay features and decisions?  Don't you think that, no matter how well the game is balanced in the future, you shouldn't have a brainless transfer button to press in case of any emergency, whether for yourself or to revive teammates?  How is operator invincibility somehow less bad than shield gating?  Seems like a strange way to defend the current broken operator feature.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

2 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Lol wat??? You think good game design is forcing players to play sub-optimally just so the game doesn't break?  Wow.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. I think good game design is making it so you can play the game more ways then just one. Going optimal, or "meta" is not the correct way to design a game. I think DE has pulled this off well. If you don't want to play with the operators that's fine. You may have a bad time. Just like Necromechs. It's a new way to play and I think that is great.

[TnaneverRisen]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I feel like I've fielded this before.

1. You'd have to rework Eidolons gratuitously.
2. You'd have to probably change up Profit Taker now you can't just pop in and out to change its weaknesses easily.
3. You'd impede all the other utilities an Operator provides to the Frame (+ others) such as the Energising Dash which doesn't even spawn all the time, the mobility, the healing in Vazarin, etc. Most of these implicitly don't require staying in Operator, they're executed with a quick weave in and out.
4. Many Warframes don't actually get to be fully immune because if they have active abilities (channels, buffs) they only get 90% damage resistance.
5. Leaving your frame is now a liability because it may be suffering fatal DoT effects when you jump back in, and now you can't just hop back out to give them time to expire.
6. Leaving a frame which remains vulnerable is now an immense liability because if it force 'kills' the operator by sustaining enough damage to the Warframe, you can't even get a chance to react and save your Frame by Transferring back out. And you can't just keep re-positioning your sitting duck of a frame either, because of the cooldown.
7. Stacking on-death delays from what it sounds like, indefinitely between ongoing uses of Transference throughout a mission instance, is stupid. This only punishes people already not successfully trivialising matters, while the successful you're complaining about still get away with it. Also arbitrarily limiting for missions where you're just taking longer in an instance, such as spending extended times out in the open zones.

1 - Maybe they should be reworked anyway.  I don't think that's a bad thing.
2 - That's great.  Maybe players should have to build on weapon damage types properly - otherwise what's the point of all that damage shield lore and functionality?
3 - Those things can and should be rebalanced.
4 - If that's even an issue, it can also be tweaked.
5 - Why is that an issue? The whole point is to make combat meaningful.  Dying to DOTs if you don't have infinite invincibility - you should want that to be the case.
6 - I'd be fine with that.  Again, like #5, operators shouldn't be at-will free invincibility.
7 - Who said the stacks should be indefinite?  Maybe it would be stupid - but that's your own stupid idea that you came up with on your own.  I even specifically stated stacks of things like this could expire.

[CxLL]

Being able to complete a task in more than one way does not mean that one of those ways is limiting the others. Shodian gave a very banally accurate metaphor with a nail and hammer. It's always better to have more than one option, especially in an environment catering to more than one person.

[Voltage]

46 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

All those issues seem to be just in addition to the operator problem.  Those should be fixed too, of course.

...but let's say they were fixed.  Let's say enemies were interesting and challenging, shield gating was rebalanced, etc.  How would it still be ok to have instant invincibility at-will, completely negating all sorts of gameplay features and decisions?  Don't you think that, no matter how well the game is balanced in the future, you shouldn't have a brainless transfer button to press in case of any emergency, whether for yourself or to revive teammates?  How is operator invincibility somehow less bad than shield gating?  Seems like a strange way to defend the current broken operator feature.

You're asking a what if question about a game that has never been designed with strict balance. Sure, in your hypothetical utopia of "balanced" Warframe, I guess it would be unhealthy to have Operators perform the way they do now. In current Warframe, it really doesn't matter. The problems with easy-mode are within the modding system and the way the game is marketed (casual looter shooter).

I really enjoy Operators as they are complementary to parkour 2.0. Their movement is helpful yet not overpowered. The no-consequence revive isn't overpowered considering players have 6 revives per mission they rarely use up. I would say Operators are better for the game than worse overall. The issues with the healing and such are a symptom of the modding systems (Arcane stats being a bit too good). Unfortunately, DE hasn't balanced these Arcanes for years aside from Magus Lockdown, and now most players are heavily invested in them. They would shoot themselves in the foot nerfing those.

[CreamedSoda]

As one of the ten Vazarin players I agree that arcanes that heal should be nerfed.😃

[TnaneverRisen]

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

You're asking a what if question about a game that has never been designed with strict balance. Sure, in your hypothetical utopia of "balanced" Warframe, I guess it would be unhealthy to have Operators perform the way they do now. In current Warframe, it really doesn't matter. The problems with easy-mode are within the modding system and the way the game is marketed (casual looter shooter).

I really enjoy Operators as they are complementary to parkour 2.0. Their movement is helpful yet not overpowered. The no-consequence revive isn't overpowered considering players have 6 revives per mission they rarely use up. I would say Operators are better for the game than worse overall. The issues with the healing and such are a symptom of the modding systems (Arcane stats being a bit too good). Unfortunately, DE hasn't balanced these Arcanes for years aside from Magus Lockdown, and now most players are heavily invested in them. They would shoot themselves in the foot nerfing those.

Whatever you mean by "strict balance" - clearly the devs are concerned about balance.  There are balance changes all the time.  Endless river of tears from people who got their favorite riven dispositions nerfed, for example.  Nerfing certain arcanes would be in line with this, and necessary.  Better balance makes for a better game.  You don't have an argument against improving the balance.

Side note - You are using a circular argument regarding operators and revives.  The reason why the ~6 revives per mission are are rarely used is because, guess what - OPERATOR FORM IS OVERPOWERED.  People don't die because of instant, unlimited transfers to stealthed invincible form, either for themselves or to revive a teammate.

[Tsukinoki]

I don't really see what the purpose of the proposed nerfs would be.

It wouldn't make anything harder, just more annoying.
It wouldn't actually affect how easy/hard the majority of the game is.

The only thing I see this doing is making operator mode more annoying for the people that don't have everything maxed out, while having little to no effect to the people that are largely done with the system.
And to what benefit?
What would suddenly become more "tactical"?  What would suddenly become more "difficult"?  What would suddenly become more "fun"?  Because with the changes you've provided I see none of that changing.

The only thing that would change would be some things would become much more annoying....which games shouldn't aim to make content more annoying "just because".
Eidolons would just become more annoying to do because everything there one-shots the operator which you need to sit in for long periods of time to slowly whittle down the shields.  Meanwhile you can't just leave your frame in a "safe spot" due to how spawning happens on the plains making no area a "safe spot" to transfer out of your suddenly vulnerable frame (and mind you no easy way to monitor your frames health while you're busy in operator mode).  Overall though the difficulty of the fights wouldn't increase...just the annoyance factor of having to sit there in the fight twiddling your thumbs over and over again because of a CD.
And no, annoyance is not difficulty.  Its just annoyance.

Profit taker wouldn't suddenly be any harder or more difficult, it would just become more annoying for the people who won't/can't take full squads to fight it.  It just now takes them longer to kill it....and nothing really changes to make the fight suddenly harder or more engaging.

As for reviving?  Again it doesn't really do much because either:
A) People immediately burn a revive to get up anyways meaning no risk of spending time reviving
B) Someone is playing a frame which literally can't die (such as a full Tank Inaros) and can still revive without even thinking about it as even in SP an acolyte can't kill an Inaros that is just sitting there in front of them AFK.
C) Someone uses a mass CC ability and pauses the entire room to revive whatever needs revived
D) If its a pet they just move away and the pet teleports to them, completely and utterly removing the "risk" of reviving them
Meanwhile, one thing you won't see is people use the revive shield mod as that doesn't even work in level 10 content and would still be an utterly stupid waste of a mod to use.

Further this wouldn't really remove a "braindead easy button".  I mean there would still be frames that enemies literally can't kill even if you just sit there AFK for minutes at a time.  There would still be abilities that would utterly trivialize any content by either CCing entire rooms, or going invisible, or just killing everyone.  It would only just remove options from gameplay, it would only remove movement options, and it would only be an annoyance and inconvenience.
And for what benefit?  What would actually get better by slapping on a CD to using it?  What would actually get better by removing the invulnerability of the frame when you're not in it?  What would suddenly become more interesting or require more investment?  I just can't see any benefits of nerfing operators.  Nothing would improve by making an option worse when so few people actively use them anyways.

In the end changes like this would only:
-Disincentivize newer players from even starting getting into operators
-Reinforce the view that operators are "useless" and a "waste of time and resources"
-Have absolutely no effect on people who have nearly finished operators, while at the same time heavily nerfing people who haven't

1 minute ago, TnaneverRisen said:

The reason why the ~6 revives per mission are are rarely used is because, guess what - OPERATOR FORM IS OVERPOWERED.

Further this is so laughably wrong its almost sad.
Fact is that revives weren't used by players before operators were a thing.
Suddenly nerfing operators won't suddenly make people burn through revives!  Especially when frames like Inaros, Rhino, Nidus, Valkyr, Wukong, etc, etc (I really could go on for a very long time).

Operators have practically zero effect on whether a revive is used or not.  They are in  no way related.

[Faras]

Your logic is flawed. I use the same argument against any other good thing out the game.... 

 

Why not limit Zenith's infinity punchthrough? We are able to cheese profit takers since you can take out pylons from any distance... This forces the player to only use that weapon and trivialize the boss fight... I think there should be some sort of limitation, infinity is absurd. Maybe players should have other options to take out pylons. In addition, the fact that it can oneshot elements on that fight is ridiculous. 

Why not nerf viral and slash? We are able to bypasses armor and do 325% more damage on health thus forcing all players to build for slash and viral when going against armored enemies. I think there should be some sort of limitation, bypassing all armor and doing that much damage is absurd. Maybe players should have other options when going against them. In addition, the fact that a slash and toxin/cold mods are bronze is ridiculous. 

Why not remove damage and multishot mods? They are used on all builds which makes them mandatory thus forcing us to equip them cutting our creativity for potential elemental combos that we now cannot use. In addition, the fact that the base damage mods go up to 10 ranks is ridiculously expensive for a something we're practically forced to use. 

 

Your points must be satire, they're hilarious. 

[Voltage]

14 minutes ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Whatever you mean by "strict balance" - clearly the devs are concerned about balance.  There are balance changes all the time.  Endless river of tears from people who got their favorite riven dispositions nerfed, for example.  Nerfing certain arcanes would be in line with this, and necessary.  Better balance makes for a better game.  You don't have an argument against improving the balance.

Side note - You are using a circular argument regarding operators and revives.  The reason why the ~6 revives per mission are are rarely used is because, guess what - OPERATOR FORM IS OVERPOWERED.  People don't die because of instant, unlimited transfers to stealthed invincible form, either for themselves or to revive a teammate.

Warframe's "balance" is that there is almost none. You can nuke an Arbitration defense mission for hundreds of waves, immobilize most enemies, deal insane damage hours into a survival with a plethora of options, etc. Riven Disposition changes don't balance anything. I've proven that for over a year now in various Disposition change threads.

"Better balance" is a perspective. Warframe has conditioned players to enjoy unbalanced gameplay and enemies with little feedback to player input. The best version of balance for this game is just recognizing the power ceiling and everything in it, and being proactive to not make it worse.

No, the 6 revives per mission are often used, but never fully consumed because missions are so short, and there are plenty of ways to abuse invincibility without the Operator. Rolling Guard, Brief Respite, Arcane Aegis, Augur Mod Set, etc. come to mind. 

[Zexal]

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We are able to transfer between operator and warframe instantly, without limit, at the same time healing your operator and/or warframe without limit (using arcanes), and also allows for both operator and warframe to be invincible at will (using operator stealth)

First of all, using transference on its own doesn't do much, so I don't see anything wrong here. 
Indeed, we can heal ourselves, we can also gain multiple buffs thanks to arcanes. But what does it imply?

• You have to farm your syndicates every single day
• You have to do your quests as well to unlock your Tenno
• or you have to farm plats to buy these arcanes

So, there's a certain investment here. 
The operator's stealth mode is time limited and energy consuming, there's a certain limit there. 

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this tremendously trivializes much content and takes away the opportunity for various builds and strategies to shine.  In a very good way, playing the game felt very different before having transference unlocked.

What strategies are you talking about exactly? How did it feel better before? 
You have the choice not to use your operator. It's there, but if you don't want it, you leave it on the side. Like any warframe or weapon, just don't press 5 or whatever

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I think there should be some sort of cooldown between repeated transference activations, and probably an additional penalty cooldown if you "die" in operator form.  The current health temporary penalty for dying in operator form is almost meaningless, especially with shield gating...and the fact you can just transfer out again immediately and stealth anyway.

How would a cooldown will benefit everyone? How will it impact everyone? Have you thought about that? 
Do you know about the transference static? If you don't, just check the wiki page. Also, shield gating doesn't apply to the operator, so I don't get your point.
Once you get to a certain lvl of enemies, if your operator takes a hit, your frame can die instantly. 

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In addition, the fact that warframes are entirely invincible during operator form is ridiculous (but there may not be a good way around this without hurting gameplay).  Maybe players should have to be careful where their warframe is parked, instead of insta-transference + stealth + heal at a few button presses.

*laughs in Umbra* *laughs in lvlcap*

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Regardless, please enhance the transference aspect as an additional layer of gameplay that requires tactics and build planning, instead of at-will brainless button presses that can save you at any time.  

You obvioulsy didn't unlock every focus school and every ability, you'd be aware of the strategies involving the operator and the "additional layer of gameplay that requires tactics and build planning". 

Eidolon runs, arbitration runs, some speedruns, and even casual mission. They all rely on operators.
Each focus has its purpose, there's always a strategy around them. And if they're not involved, which is pretty rare, there's a reason.
If you knew better, you'd know that you don't need the operator to be invincible in Warframe. As I said, you can leave it on the side, play without him, and stay alive.

Let me tell you about a few frames and mods that can do everything that the operator can do : 

Invincibility : Harrow, Nezha, Valkyr, shield gating, rolling guard, quick thinking, shield & life pads, mods sets, every WF arcane restoring shield/health and giving armor
Energy : Trinity, Protea, Hildryn, energy pads, arcane energize.
Invisibility : Loki, Ash, Octavia
Dmg Buff : Harrow, Octavia's kit, Mirage, Saryn, every mods increasing dmg & mods sets
Quick TP : Loki, Ash, Nova, Wisp
Speed : Volt, Titania, Infested Mobility
Healing : Trinity, Protea, Wisp

Also, with Helminth, everything's a bit more overpowered than it was prior Deimos. Although it didn't really change anything.

I invite you to look up the guides written for the arbitration and eidolons, you'll see that there more than a transference mechanic : you actually have to invest time and energy in the game : getting the required stuff, formatting it, farming focus, farming syndicates, unlocking every nodes...

There's no issue with the transference. 

[yarl5000]

The issue is you are looking at this from someone who has invested time and effort into your operator so it can do all the things you talk about.  Brand new stock operators are worthless, things can sneeze on them and they would die, their attack power is barely worth mentioning, and the ability to void cloak is limited.  You also haven't considered how this will impact players with brand new operators who are looking at the focus grind, the arcane grind, and the change in how to play with operators vs warframes.  For me and many other vets limiting my ability to transfer to my operator wouldn't stop me it would just slow me down but would slap a massive wall in front of new players who are still trying to get into using their operators. 

The issue also isn't with transference, it is with the focus school and arcanes that are the issue. Without anything on my operator, I could transfer in and out of my frame 10 times or 100 times and all that would happen is it might move forward a whole meter in game.  Limiting that is the lazy way to address the balance issue you are upset about with operators and doesn't actually address the underlying balance issue of the game either. 

Now go ahead and call me small brain or dum dum if you want, I can't really stop you from doing what comes natural. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Don't use them? Should we "limit" inaros too? Or should you just deal with the game how it is or not play it?