Unlimited Simulacrum

[Fractyr]

Currently,

The level cap of the enemies in the simulacrum is respective to the players mastery rank.

The enemies do not have any options for modifications such as steel path or sortie buffs.

Level 100+ heavy gunners etc. was the benchmark for damage testing a few years ago but we all know that is not the case anymore.

We now have warframes and weapons capable of melting steel path armored enemies in the level range of the thousands and it is safe to say killing a bunch of level 100 corrupted heavy gunners does not provide a sufficient benchmark for damage output testing.

I suggest removing the level cap of enemies and enable enemy modifiers such as steel path and sortie buffs.

I personally do not see any downsides to this change but I am open to discussion in the comments below.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I don't see what harm any of this would do, would be nice to test builds against lvl 500 if I wanted to.

Id also like to be able to spawn in more enemies, maybe 40-50 instead of the 20 thats possible just now.

Id also like to simulate builds so I can test a build without having to put all the forma in first, that way I know what I need to do in advance.

[Fractyr]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Id also like to simulate builds so I can test a build without having to put all the forma in first, that way I know what I need to do in advance.

true

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I heavily doubt they'd do this as they seem to not want players to spend too much time in the Simulacrum. There was a comment made by Scott (I think) where he expressed how much he hated the Simulacrum because every single time they'd release content, videos would just be made showing the thing against level 170 Bombards. If Simulacrum included every circumstance, there'd be less reason to load up a SP mission or do the Sortie to test your gear, which are the actual scenarios that you'd be playing.

I got nothing against this being added, but I think DE does.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I'm an outsider, but apparently this community has issues with the simulacrum. They don't seem to grasp the the concept that it's only a test ground and that's it. Some people apparently think it's a mission as real as the starchart, even using it to try to make changes to the actual game because of their pre-set up sterile battleground because we all know real missions totally involve nothing but Corrupted Heavy Gunners standing in a perfect line and invincibility turned on with a switch.

I think people should try actually testing things in live missions.

I've heard turning off enemy AI skews damage data because it apparently adds a stealth multiplier? If I'm wrong about that I apologize.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I've heard turning off enemy AI skews damage data because it apparently adds a stealth multiplier? If I'm wrong about that I apologize.

This seems to be the case with melee damage, but not other damage sources

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm an outsider, but apparently this community has issues with the simulacrum. They don't seem to grasp the the concept that it's only a test ground and that's it. Some people apparently think it's a mission as real as the starchart, even using it to try to make changes to the actual game because of their pre-set up sterile battleground because we all know real missions totally involve nothing but Corrupted Heavy Gunners standing in a perfect line and invincibility turned on with a switch.

I think people should try actually testing things in live missions.

I've heard turning off enemy AI skews damage data because it apparently adds a stealth multiplier? If I'm wrong about that I apologize.

Thats quite a blanket (and patronising) statement that you think the entire community doesn't grasp what the simulacrum is.  Also a statement i think is quite wrong.

Personally,  I fully understand the difference between the simulacrum and real missions.  I've also never met a player who doesn't. 

It is nice to have somewhere to test stuff, especially in a game that has so many build options.   More options in how we test stuff wouldnt hurt anybody.   It doesn't simulate a real mission, of course not, but it is definitely helpful. 

[Drasiel]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I'm an outsider, but apparently this community has issues with the simulacrum. They don't seem to grasp the the concept that it's only a test ground and that's it. Some people apparently think it's a mission as real as the starchart, even using it to try to make changes to the actual game because of their pre-set up sterile battleground because we all know real missions totally involve nothing but Corrupted Heavy Gunners standing in a perfect line and invincibility turned on with a switch.

I think people should try actually testing things in live missions.

I've heard turning off enemy AI skews damage data because it apparently adds a stealth multiplier? If I'm wrong about that I apologize.

The problem with testing in real missions is that it's incredibly cumbersome and involves so many loading screens. I had to load into deimos set bounty to steel path load into world 16 times before I found a build that worked for me to clear it. It took so much time to just find what I needed to use then mod it properly I didn't actually get to clear the node till a couple days later when I had time again. If I could have just tested in the simulacrum I would have been able to actually play the game instead of trial and error all my time down the drain through loading screens. It's really important to note that after the first couple of shots on a few different enemies it was super clear my builds weren't working so all being unable to set steel path modifiers in the simulacrum got me was a time tax.

I played before the simulacrum existed and even with waaaaaay less options testing was still often frustrating and tedious. Just because some youtubers declare mastery fodder based on simulacrum alone doesn't mean it's not a valuable asset for the community.

[Fractyr]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

If Simulacrum included every circumstance, there'd be less reason to load up a SP mission

It takes 3 hours to get to level 1k in steel path and sortie modifiers are random.

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

we all know real missions totally involve nothing but Corrupted Heavy Gunners standing in a perfect line and invincibility turned on with a switch.

I personally unfreeze enemies and turn off invulnerability while testing which is what I think other people should be doing as well.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Thats quite a blanket (and patronising) statement that you think the entire community doesn't grasp what the simulacrum is.  Also a statement i think is quite wrong.

Personally,  I fully understand the difference between the simulacrum and real missions.  I've also never met a player who doesn't. 

It is nice to have somewhere to test stuff, especially in a game that has so many build options.   More options in how we test stuff wouldnt hurt anybody.   It doesn't simulate a real mission, of course not, but it is definitely helpful. 

Odd...no comment on the stealth multipliers or people using the simulacrum to attempt to enact changes in the game. I've seen people in feedback basically say "this weapon or frame doesn't do x amount of damage on these 10 CHG, it needs to be buffed or x should be nerfed because it killed these CHGs too fast and other things can't". 

It's a great way for people with ulterior motives to build a terrible argument, and at best a place for people who don't know any better to build a terrible argument.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Odd...no comment on the stealth multipliers or people using the simulacrum to attempt to enact changes in the game. I've seen people in feedback basically say "this weapon or frame doesn't do x amount of damage on these 10 CHG, it needs to be buffed or x should be nerfed because it killed these CHGs too fast and other things can't". 

It's a great way for people with ulterior motives to build a terrible argument, and at best a place for people who don't know any better to build a terrible argument.

Stealth multipliers only affect melee.  I can put together a melee build in my sleep that can kill just about any level enemy in the game.  I guess most experienced players could do the same.  Don't know why you think it odd that I never commented on this.  My comment was (I think) quite clearly directed at your seeming belief the entire warframe community can't tell the difference between the simulacrum and a real mission.  And you then apparently thinking testing things should only be done in actual missions, to which I countered that testing things first can be very useful.

Who are these players and what are these ulterior motives of which you speak? What are they arguing about? It sounds very cloak and dagger.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, Ryptoryx said:

It takes 3 hours to get to level 1k in steel path and sortie modifiers are random.

I personally unfreeze enemies and turn off invulnerability while testing which is what I think other people should be doing as well.

Yea, people should do a lot of things, but they don't....do they...?

As someone above said, if all people have to do is put 15 level 1000 CHGs in a row and turn off their AI and go invincible, we're opening a new can of worms for warframe Karens to offer a bunch of new flawed feedback, because they're gonna think that every frame should be able to do x to those level 1000 CHGs. 

If they turn off invincibility and enemy AI, then we're looking at another enemy nerf because some guy can't practice a build without getting killed and then it's "not fun" and "how do you expect people to play your game, DE?".

They can do whatever they want, I'm just pointing out that it's gonna present a new set of unintended consequences.

[(PSN)FK2P]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Yea, people should do a lot of things, but they don't....do they...?

As someone above said, if all people have to do is put 15 level 1000 CHGs in a row and turn off their AI and go invincible, we're opening a new can of worms for warframe Karens to offer a bunch of new flawed feedback, because they're gonna think that every frame should be able to do x to those level 1000 CHGs. 

If they turn off invincibility and enemy AI, then we're looking at another enemy nerf because some guy can't practice a build without getting killed and then it's "not fun" and "how do you expect people to play your game, DE?".

They can do whatever they want, I'm just pointing out that it's gonna present a new set of unintended consequences.

Correction: 18 Level 1000 CHGs, 1 level 1000 toxic ancient and 1 level 1000 energy drain eximus, that will seperate the trash frames from the good frames. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Stealth multipliers only affect melee.  I can put together a melee build in my sleep that can kill just about any level enemy in the game.  I guess most experienced players could do the same.  Don't know why you think it odd that I never commented on this.  My comment was (I think) quite clearly directed at your seeming belief the entire warframe community can't tell the difference between the simulacrum and a real mission.  And you then apparently thinking testing things should only be done in actual missions, to which I countered that testing things first can be very useful.

Who are these players and what are these ulterior motives of which you speak? What are they arguing about? It sounds very cloak and dagger.

Off the top of my head, a couple weeks ago, a guy proposed nerfing slash procs, because he walked up to a CHG in the simulacrum and said you can hit a CHG for "5% of your damage", and the slash proc will do "1000s of times" more damage. His argument was that slash procs are "just too strong". 

I explained that enemy EHP was nerfed across the board and that there's multiple other things in the game that are "too strong", that in real missions people actually strip some armor etc etc. To which he told me to "go to the simulacrum" and test it myself.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)FK2P said:

Correction: 18 Level 1000 CHGs, 1 level 1000 toxic ancient and 1 level 1000 energy drain eximus, that will seperate the trash frames from the good frames. 

Some people in the community can't even handle toxic ancients or energy drain eximus.....there have already been proposals to nerf and/or remove them....why would people actually challenge themselves lol.

[Drachnyn]

I dont think scott's grievance with the simulacrum is very valid because instead of those ugly rooms they could just give us rooms like we see in sanctuary onslaught. Then he would still have the pretty pretty rooms he likes so much in those videos instead of the ever same simulacrum. The level cap could just go away aswell and no harm would be done.

[quxier]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Id also like to simulate builds so I can test a build without having to put all the forma in first, that way I know what I need to do in advance.

And with Helminth new abilities. Even better if abilities are not in the list (you can change any ability).

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Id also like to be able to spawn in more enemies, maybe 40-50 instead of the 20 thats possible just now.

+1

5 minutes ago, Ryptoryx said:

I personally unfreeze enemies and turn off invulnerability while testing which is what I think other people should be doing as well.

It's reasonable to freeze enemies and turn on invulnerability.

When you are testing specific things, like range so you don't want enemies to move. Sometimes you may not see change because it's not big & enemies attacking you.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Sorry to storm the thread, just putting some things out there I've been curious about. 

I think DE should offer more simulacrum options. I just don't think we should be using the simulacrum to make changes to the game is all.

[Berzerkules]

SP Mot is my Simulacrum.

Testing builds against 20 enemies in a closed environment isn't a very good test. You get a way better idea on how a build will work in an actual mission. 

The only thing I really test in the sim is energy colors on weapons and frames. I don't want to blind myself or others with obnoxiously bright colors and I can make tweaks to that in the sim before I ever go into a mission. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

28 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I dont think scott's grievance with the simulacrum is very valid because instead of those ugly rooms they could just give us rooms like we see in sanctuary onslaught. Then he would still have the pretty pretty rooms he likes so much in those videos instead of the ever same simulacrum. The level cap could just go away aswell and no harm would be done.

I don't think that was the concern. He did mention that the room was boring/ugly, but the main issue was that people would use the simulacrum to shoot a few Bombards/CHGs instead of doing the actual content that the weapons and warframes are designed to be used in, then you'd see YouTube videos and forum feedback based on those unrealistic tests.

[Reitrix]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

SP Mot is my Simulacrum.

Testing builds against 20 enemies in a closed environment isn't a very good test. You get a way better idea on how a build will work in an actual mission. 

The only thing I really test in the sim is energy colors on weapons and frames. I don't want to blind myself or others with obnoxiously bright colors and I can make tweaks to that in the sim before I ever go into a mission. 

Simulacrum is the best place to test whether or not a weapon is even capable of killing a specific target. 

I don't particularly feel like loading all the way into a mission, getting the spawn level high enough and then waiting until a heavy unit shows up only to find out that oops, My build is garbage and I'm just giving that Bombard a massage. 
Being able to drop into the Simulacrum, spawn the unit in question and then adjust the build on-site to get the best results and then going into a mission to see how it fares in sustained usage is incredibly valuable to me. 

Mastery Rank has zero bearing on our damage output for a given build, MR30 isn't going to magically make my guns do more damage. If I can encounter level 170+ mobs in missions, I should be allowed to spawn them at that level for testing purposes. 
 

[(PSN)FK2P]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I don't think that was the concern. He did mention that the room was boring/ugly, but the main issue was that people would use the simulacrum to shoot a few Bombards/CHGs instead of doing the actual content that the weapons and warframes are designed to be used in, then you'd see YouTube videos and forum feedback based on those unrealistic tests.

I don’t understand the difference between:

A: summoning 20 max level enemies in a room and trying to kill them all.

B: playing a mission and achieving the same level enemies, walking into a room with 20 of them and then they respawn. 
 

In this scenario the simulacrum is easier? You start with max energy, you only kill one wave, if a warframe can’t handle one wave of enemies then I’m afraid it’s a waste of time. There’s going to be a time where I’ll have to pick something else evidently, so why bother using it.
 

Why use Loki when Ivara exists. Disarm? Disarm what? some grineer like it’s 2014?
 

Clone? Where? it’s already dead- meanwhile wukong’s clone is flattening with a Kohm and no reload or ammo consumption.

Better for spy missions? Ivara can go through lasers, she’s invisible and can upkeep it in definately without jumping into a corner every minute.

[Drachnyn]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)Regxxh:

I don't think that was the concern. He did mention that the room was boring/ugly, but the main issue was that people would use the simulacrum to shoot a few Bombards/CHGs instead of doing the actual content that the weapons and warframes are designed to be used in, then you'd see YouTube videos and forum feedback based on those unrealistic tests.

To me it sounded like those videos not showing off the design effort they put into tilesets was his main issue but you make a valid point. The actual content they provide however is not well suited for testing. Having a controlled environment is very important for testing and presenting weapons. He needs to understand that no one watches a full 2 hour survival video that's just a weapon showcase. The content creators use the sim for videos but the people excited about what a weapon or frame can do will use them in regular content.

[(PSN)FK2P]

6 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

To me it sounded like those videos not showing off the design effort they put into tilesets was his main issue but you make a valid point. The actual content they provide however is not well suited for testing. Having a controlled environment is very important for testing and presenting weapons. He needs to understand that no one watches a full 2 hour survival video that's just a weapon showcase. The content creators use the sim for videos but the people excited about what a weapon or frame can do will use them in regular content.

Exactly, watching ember take almost 20 minutes to kill one level 165 enemy with her old 4 was enough for me to never use her without taking her into the game. Warframes that can’t make it out of testing don’t belong in release. 

[Berzerkules]

Just now, Reitrix said:

Simulacrum is the best place to test whether or not a weapon is even capable of killing a specific target. 

I don't particularly feel like loading all the way into a mission, getting the spawn level high enough and then waiting until a heavy unit shows up only to find out that oops, My build is garbage and I'm just giving that Bombard a massage. 
Being able to drop into the Simulacrum, spawn the unit in question and then adjust the build on-site to get the best results and then going into a mission to see how it fares in sustained usage is incredibly valuable to me. 

Mastery Rank has zero bearing on our damage output for a given build, MR30 isn't going to magically make my guns do more damage. If I can encounter level 170+ mobs in missions, I should be allowed to spawn them at that level for testing purposes. 
 

Enemies in SP get 250% health, armor and shields. The lvl 140-145 enemies you get in SP Mot are going to be harder to kill than the lvl 180 enemies you can spawn in the sim. Mot has a good mix of enemies so it's kind of like testing against many enemies from all factions. 

It takes 2 loading screens to enter then sim and only 1 if you just start a mission. 

I just find that an actual SP mission gives a better Idea of what builds are actually capable of since SP enemies are tankier than anything the sim has to offer but, If you like the sim, use it.