Hema's Cost, Mutagen Sample Drop Rate & Availability

[Tesseract7777]

I just recently got around to starting my own solo clan. Even though I've had the Hema and Knux for years, but just out of completionism I intend to do both anyways, and if I ever decide to add members one day when all research is finished.

I contributed a lot for a big moon clan back in the day, so I've given away plenty of my stockpile.

And it still just doesn't look like that intimidiating farm. Do some extractors on the side, grab a loot frame, a smeeta and some boosters, and tbh I'll have it in no time once I start trying, and there are plenty of other goals I can do alongside my dedicated farming runs. As someone who really isn't nearly as resource rich as most vets (I would put myself nearer the bottom of the pool), I still don't find even the outlier solo clan requirements all that intimidating, or really intimidating at all. We have so many boosters and loot enhance things now. 

It's just silly to act like farming anything, even totally by yourself as a solo clan, is particularly hard at this point. In fact, almost all the resource requirements are laughably lol to me. And I feel like I am being handed things. 

[kapn655321]

I've been playing since 2014, with the same clan, and still haven't unlocked the Hema.

Having fed like maybe 375 to Helminth, and a handful for pre-reqs, the rest have been p*ssed up a wall into Hema research.

7,645 / 50,000

At this rate it will take me another ~30,000 hours.

[Tesseract7777]

46 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I've been playing since 2014, with the same clan, and still haven't unlocked the Hema.

Having fed like maybe 375 to Helminth, and a handful for pre-reqs, the rest have been p*ssed up a wall into Hema research.

7,645 / 50,000

At this rate it will take me another ~30,000 hours.

How many people are in the clan? 

I am sorry if I am getting this mixed up, but isn't that a 100 person max clan size cost? 

Of course, in a clan that big, if most people are not even actively trying to help, it will take forever. 

No one person should be trying to take on the burden of Hema Research in a storm clan all by themselves that's mad. 

Edit: I'm sorry I don't mean this in a mean way, because there is nothing wrong with having a casual clan, but I think things like Hema and Knux research and such, are meant to help filter clan size so people either organize their clans better, or downgrade to something manageable for the amount of time they have to organize/desired level of casualness. 

I mean, yes the Hema costs are definitely an outlier, but even considering that, we can't expect them to decide resource costs based on a a very small level of clan participation for a given item, and if you've been a 100 person clan for seven years and there is that little still put into the Hema, the majority of your clan is not even coming close to their fair share. In fact, they probably aren't contributing at all. 

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

How many people are in the clan?

I used to have about 60 people iirc, but downsized.

Downsizing the clan does not downsize the cost.. so I'm stuck with it.

Hema cost has always seemed to me an exceptionally poor decision, and I'm otherwise extremely patient. It will be impossible to keep my clan and finish the research, unless I bring on a work force of players to farm it for me... and nah. That always felt like exploitation, so it was never an option.

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, kapn655321 said:

I used to have about 60 people iirc, but downsized.

Downsizing the clan does not downsize the cost.. so I'm stuck with it.

Hema cost has always seemed to me an exceptionally poor decision, and I'm otherwise extremely patient. It will be impossible to keep my clan and finish the research, unless I bring on a work force of players to farm it for me... and nah. That always felt like exploitation, so it was never an option.

Ah, that is silly. Downsizing IMO should allow you to downsize the cost. I think that is a design flaw on their part. That really blows.

The problem while I personally don't have anything against lowering the costs, I am also in a "let's make the best of it POV", because DE has come down hard claiming it would "be unfair to others who paid the cost in the past" and doesn't want to budge, even admitting it is unfair, but not wanting to be "more unfair by disrespecting past grinds" or something. 

But I do think we have to consider that may be partly their desire. They are trying to encourage clans to require more participation and activity among members, but the problem is, clans are done so ham-handedly in the first place. 

It would be easier to motivate clannies to help with something like the Hema, and feel less like you were just using them for resources, if there was more to do with clans in the first place, more to keep them engaged without having to make up your own activites. If DE gave clans more to do, you could farm for stuff like that as a side activity while doing other activities as a clan, and it would feel just more like being part of a group and working together, than just begging for your buddies resources and potentially having them go somewhere that doesn't ask them for stuff. 

However, whenever DE tries to do more with clans, a lot of the solo clans or super casual clans cry out they are being excluding, and they let it go again... It is sad. I would really like to see way more done with clans. 

[kapn655321]

21 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Downsizing IMO should allow you to downsize the cost.

There's a reason we can't, though.
Hypothetically
You could get together a clan of 100 people to farm mutagen. Donate all to clan vault. Nuke clan size. Pay it off in one day.

That loophole would break the entire purpose of the scaling costs.. so I see why they don't do that.

Ultimately, I bought a Hema, so the absurd cost served it's purpose. Not to mention, now that I downsized, it's not really affecting anyone that my clan doesn't have it. So, really the problem for the game is minimal to non existent in that respect.

Also, no one's losing sleep over not getting a Hema. It's not particularly good.. sluggish, fairly inaccurate for a headshot function, and weak stats.

That said, to expect any player to earn that totally forgettable weapon as-is, feels irksome and ill-fitting.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

2 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

You could get together a clan of 100 people to farm mutagen. Donate all to clan vault. Nuke clan size. Pay it off in one day.

That loophole would break the entire purpose of the scaling costs.. so I see why they don't do that.

Pretty sure that's what some people do? Your main issue is that you've already started the research, so the requirements don't change when decreasing your clan tier. If you hadn't started the research, the requirements would decrease as you decrease the clan tier.

[kapn655321]

3 hours ago, (PSN)iuvenilis said:

Pretty sure that's what some people do? Your main issue is that you've already started the research, so the requirements don't change when decreasing your clan tier. If you hadn't started the research, the requirements would decrease as you decrease the clan tier.

On the other hand, you can effectively brick your chances of getting a Hema this way, and... do we not seriously need to fix those costs? Like, we can talk about whether or not it's acceptable for me to get shafted on a technicality, and I'm at peace with it... but that's beside the main point of: I have still afforded literally everything else on my own at that rate. I'm still 30k hours away from the Junk Hema.

[Flan-Flan]

I should add that this is the feedback forum. I am not here to ask for farming advice, nor is anyone else. This is purely a thread in which we state that DE must change the Hema to fit the mold that is current generation Clan Research, not some ridiculous fantasy concept that does not exist in 2022. I do not care for nor am I looking to obtain the secrets of gathering this absurdly rare item. I only want things to change for the better.

I should also like to add that in the year since I started this thread and now, I managed to gain something like 150 mutagen samples in total passively through helping other people into Deimos, doing iso vaults etc myself, farming Lephantis, farming Zealoid Prelate, etc etc over that duration. Over the course of a YEAR my total mutagen sample resources went up by one hundred and fifty. No, please, go on to tell me this is reasonable for a 5000 sample research in dojo for Ghosts, and a 15,000 sampler research for Shadow.

It's not reasonable. Something must be done, and it should be done as soon as possible. We can talk all around the campfire here about what that would do and who that might affect and how it's fair or isn't fair. Irrelevant, all of it. The only thing that is relevant is improving the game. Fixing Hema's cost is a definite improvement to Warframe.

Thus reduced to the mere level of 'fact' how could anyone hope to disagree?

[Tesseract7777]

11 hours ago, Flan-Flan said:

The only thing that is relevant is 
 

that they have already told you no, not going to happen, ever. So what do you expect to accomplish?

We can "talk around the campfire" all day and all night, as you said, about fairness and whether it should be done or not. But it doesn't matter because they have already clearly addressed the unfair cost and said yes, it is unfair, but we refuse to change it to "respect the people who did the grind in the past". They planted their foot down firmly. If you just want to rant that you hate their decision, I feel you, but the only productive thing is dealing with the situation as is, because it isn't going to change. That's why some are talking more about farming tips, why? Because it won't change. So tell them you think they should change it all you want. They have heard. They know a lot of players want it changed. They agree it is unfair, but have decided stubbornly on a 'it is for the best to keep it as it is" attitude. Going over the same arguments they already considered and dismissed is not going to change their minds. 

You say "something must be done" as if the Hema matters, or is particularly important. But something won't be done. And the Hema doesn't matter, and isn't important. 

[kapn655321]

10 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

that they have already told you no,

...and we would very much like to urge them to reconsider that, in spite of this extra brow beating.

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

...and we would very much like to urge them to reconsider that, in spite of this extra brow beating.

I mean, there is certainly nothing wrong with continuing to ask, and I agree and so do they the cost is way high. But to convince them out of their "it is unfair to the people who already did it stance" is going to take a lot of people complaining politely, along with a lot of people who did the grind saying they are cool with it (and this already happened once and was how we got them to give us a stance on it to begin with) to even get them to consider reconsidering. 

One person telling them they "must" because one weapon is apparently that important, is probably not likely to even register on their radar of "let's think about this again". 

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

"must"

If you'll allow me a tangent..

I noticed this the other day in the forums, too.. sort of a south-park approach: "X person cares too much about x, so they should be taken down a peg." It's an interesting reaction, to be sure.. which is why it's so popular. It's interesting. It sounds like a valid point. The ol', "nail that sticks up gets hammered down." So in kind, I'll hammer on that reaction a bit.

That 'must' can read differently, though. Two ways: If they were to have mechanics based on some parity of design and accessibility, they would have to change Hema for that case to be true. That's not to implore on anyone's behalf, groveling with 'pretty pleases and have mercies,' but just to state that for the one to be true, the other must be made true. Though since there is a personal interest, I would also consider that 'must' to serve the iron rule of tenths of negotiations.. that if you ask for what you want, people will hem and haw away 9/10ths of your proposal. Ask for 10x as much, and you might be 'met halfway' with a fraction of what you asked, thus actually getting what's needed. Consider making a proposal from the other expectation: "I know you're not gonna do it, and I know there are people it upsets, and I know that... but... can..." ...and there's that groveling that it was stretched out to be before, but actually, and worse.

Something I used to catch myself doing in the forums for absolutely no good reason, is pushing back against things that ultimately I would be fine with. Like a werewolf frame. Something felt off brand about the idea to my own use case, but it wouldn't negatively impact my experience whatsoever if it existed. Some visceral finger wagging response summoned up from my amygdala to say, "....different, and therefore strange, and therefore wrong..." Meanwhile the game would objectively be better off, is this extremely niche and unimportant way. Something in the intuitive rationing of development quotients... the slice of pie that comprises all the parts of focus that can be spent, and trying to leverage or prune that messaging to be clear and orderly for the devs. Yet, if we look at the cost of Hema like a QOL bug, that could be banged out in an afternoon by taking a, "0," off the end. Why then would anyone even respond to that fraction of the pie? More principle than practicality, and more perception than principle. Sort of a peculiar thing.

The other matter is that of, "should we slight the efforts of the horse lobby, for the sake of inventing cars?" Which is to say, What is it that must so fundamentally be honored about having made excessive grinds, that could not be achieved with refunds and cosmetic flourish? That's something the game's done dozens of times over. Stagnating research for an ultimately forgettable weapon will continue to be an overtly bizarre hill to take, as it will go on demanding this attention as long as it persists. From a design standpoint, the only reason I can think to not change the Hema cost, is this very reason: To remain controversial, and farm peculiar discussions for engagement, Whatever that choice was meant to be to the game, it is also, this result..

No pressure to read all this, just felt like putting that thought to words.

[Xzorn]

DE Ninja buffed the drop rate of Mutagen Samples a few months after the original Hema outrage.

I was part of that outrage and posted comparison pics of what I'd collected up till that point.
This was about 3 years of playing included farming for Corrupted mods when they came out.

About 3 months after building Hema I started noticing Mutagen Samples a lot more when doing Syndicate missions, Alerts, etc.

About 5 months after Hema had released I noted:

I don't buy boosters. There was never a reason for me to. Later when I got a free one I generally farmed Kuva.

Anyways, point being DE already buffed it and didn't say anything because something they said on a livestream about "Players who worked hard for it" they then recommended the typical resource farming meta that this game shouldn't have in the first place but I doubt they will directly change the cost.

In the years I've played your hard work becomes pointless over time and it's less obvious. It's why I haven't played in over a year.
I can come back at any time and farm whatever has come out quicker than when it released. That's just this game.

[Lutesque]

On 2022-01-30 at 6:42 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

that they have already told you no, not going to happen, ever. So what do you expect to accomplish?

By The Masters Of Flip Flopping....

Yeah I think it's Safe to say that if enough people Whine about it it actually will happen....

Based on your Earlier comment it seems like this Issue doesn't affect you.... So you wouldn't Understand.... 

On 2022-01-30 at 6:42 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

But it doesn't matter because they have already clearly addressed the unfair cost and said yes, it is unfair, but we refuse to change it to "respect the people who did the grind in the past".

And where was this Logic when the Requirements for Railjack, Amps and Mechs were being Halfed.... TWICE !!! 🤔

See... Flip Flopping....

I say it definitely matters....

 

[Tesseract7777]

21 hours ago, Lutesque said:

By The Masters Of Flip Flopping....

Yeah I think it's Safe to say that if enough people Whine about it it actually will happen....

Based on your Earlier comment it seems like this Issue doesn't affect you.... So you wouldn't Understand.... 

And where was this Logic when the Requirements for Railjack, Amps and Mechs were being Halfed.... TWICE !!! 🤔

See... Flip Flopping....

I say it definitely matters....

 

I think you are dangerously close to bashing the devs here Lute...

And the fact is it does affect me. I am currently working on a solo clan so your assumption is false, I also contributed over much to a huge Moon clan back in the day. 

They made it clear it won't change. They heard the arguments, we got their attention, even those of us who already did it. And they said no.

Brow-beating them and insulting them isn't going to change that. They reserve the right to change their minds, but being told they HAVE TO, by people who are insulting them, is certainly not going to do that. 

With all respect, it seems like every single time you post you find something negative to say about DE and find way to have a negative perspective about literally everything full of bitterness, and it isn't a good look dude. 

[Flan-Flan]

Thread update.

A little over a year now has passed since I made this thread, and our clan has almost (but not quite) reached the halfway mark. We've finally hit 7400/15000 mutagen samples.

I would suggest that passive generation of any resource, let alone mutagen samples, COULD be a little higher if you were only gaining, across an entire clan, only a few hundred samples each over the course of an entire year of on and off gameplay. In this case, very specifically I would suggest that mutagen samples COULD have their drop rate raised very slightly, not even necessarily anymore because of the Hema, but now just because I'm coming to realize that the drop rate might just be too low in general.

At least, that's what I think, which is why I created this feedback thread - and it's why I raise it from the dead even now. Because it's still a problem.

I would also like to produce as evidence the Mutagen Mass Research, it costs 10 samples each for a single mass, which means you have to grind for probably half an hour to an hour for enough samples to make anything. This is starkly contrasted with Fieldron and Detonite, which I know everyone reading this already has too much of (unless you've fed all of it into your Helminth in which case I wouldn't blame you). The recipe is so useless that the most efficient way to gather, in fact any of these faction resources, is to simply go to Fortuna and do that one bounty over and over.

There's a lack of availability in that, once again, you can only obtain Mutagen Samples on infested tilesets, and even on endless or non-endless mission types, infested enemies have lowered drop rates as compared to Grineer or Corpus. This is compounded by the fact that infested tilesets themselves are played less frequently than most, given that there are no long-term useful farms on any infested tilesets, which means you have to go out of your way to seek Mutagen Samples.

Mutagen Sample drop rate is still a problem, there is no other resource like it in the game, and it should be brought in-line with the rest on at least SOME level, either by reducing the cost of certain items associated, OR by increasing the drop rate SLIGHTLY. I heard actually via hearsay (which probably makes it horribly untrue) that they may have actually reduced the drop rate, but I doubt that because if they had, then samples wouldn't be player obtainable anymore.

I'm not even asking for it to be raised that much here, I'm not even asking for the drop rate to be doubled, but given it is only found on two planets in the entire solar system, AND you get absolutely nothing out of farming for Mutagen Samples otherwise, I think it'd probably be safe to raise it SLIGHTLY. How does +30% sound? Maybe +40%? Heck, raising it by +50% would do just nicely. Don't do it for me, do it for the new players, the newbies, the people who are only learning about the horrors of Hema farming for the first time. Those guys.

tl;dr Sample drop rate remains an issue.

[Learicorn]

I grinded the mutagen samples for my clan basically by myself (5000 since it's a ghost clan with few members) and i still think they should severely lower the costs. Anyone who disagrees is an egotistical, selfish fiend, just like those boomers who think that because they suffered through life the newer generations should have to suffer too. 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 hour ago, Learicorn said:

I grinded the mutagen samples for my clan basically by myself (5000 since it's a ghost clan with few members) and i still think they should severely lower the costs. Anyone who disagrees is an egotistical, selfish fiend, just like those boomers who think that because they suffered through life the newer generations should have to suffer too. 

I am in a solo clan and once Deimos was released I was able to put the other half in and able to build it. 

It's not the amount you have to put in, it's the amount that your clan mates are actually contributing is the problem. 

[Beowulf22]

My clan is a Storm Clan that unfortunately never farmed the Hema out earlier. Me and a buddy spent the ENTIRE weekend of the resource event with resource boosters AND blessings whenever possible on top of our Kavats to farm 40 thousand mutagen samples. It is sadly not the worst grind I have done, but I think it's ridiculous to have such high costs for such a low drop rate resource.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

On 2021-03-23 at 11:45 AM, Flan-Flan said:

*Snip

If you can't get your fellow Clanmates to contribute to the "Clan" then find better Clanmates.  I am not saying I enjoyed the grind to finish the Hema research, but you will get it done eventually, just like the rest of us did.   It took me a year to finish the Hema research in my Shadow Clan, so there is no Quick fix, you just simply have to do the work to get the results.

The Grind is Real! 

 

On 2022-07-19 at 6:10 PM, Learicorn said:

Anyone who disagrees is an egotistical, selfish fiend, just like those boomers who think that because they suffered through life the newer generations should have to suffer too. 

This is not a "Boomer" philosophy, so please don't disparage and demean human beings just because they are older than you, as you will get there eventually, everyone does.  If anything, have some respect for those that have lived a full life, as we all know life can be difficult at times, no matter when that life occurred.  Suffering is part of life, fortunately we have Warframe to allow people of ALL AGES to squeeze in a temporary escape and enjoy some space-ninja fun!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Leqesai]

6 hours ago, Learicorn said:

I grinded the mutagen samples for my clan basically by myself (5000 since it's a ghost clan with few members) and i still think they should severely lower the costs. Anyone who disagrees is an egotistical, selfish fiend, just like those boomers who think that because they suffered through life the newer generations should have to suffer too. 

This is a pretty toxic response...

The cost for Hema is high but it is not unrealistic nor is it unachievable.