Limbo - Feedback Fiesta

[Xemgoa]

So, my intro for this thread is finding ways to improve Limbo

So, after looking at the ways some of the DE Dev teams and Pablo approach how they revise and improve Warframes and their abilities, there are a couple that stands out the most are the following:

• One ability that cycles through 4 different effects.
   
• Abilities that alternate between effects when tapping or holding down a key when casting.

And what I want to do is implement that into Limbo's kit.

The issue that there are players today that don't like to play with people who use a Limbo, and some don't like using a Limbo, is because Limbo's abilities can be disruptive to how other people want to play, and Limbo can't quite control that - other than refraining from using his abilities except during certain circumstances that are widely acceptable to other players (Building for short range and high duration as possible and casting Cataclysm on a defense objective, Banishing other players purposefully to rush through enemies to extract quickly in some circumstances, etc).

So I thought I propose some feedback through changes to some of Limbo's kit. Starting from top to bottom for his abilities, and the same for his passive.

I do want to clarify that what I'm about the share is not THE defacto fix(es) for Limbo, and that isn't my intention and DE can literally do whatever it is they want - but I hope this likely inspires them to make better improvements to Limbo and whatever other frames and functions this could be applied to.

Let's start off with the abilities - and the proposed changes after them:
 

1. Banish - "Banishes enemies and allies alike into the Rift on cast." - change it so that players can "tap" to place enemies into the Rift, and "hold" to banish Allies instead, separating the abilities effects so Limbo can choose who he wants to banish instead, rather than just a blanket effect depending on the casting point - plus, making it "tap" for banishing enemies helps prevent allies from making the mistake of banishing allies who didn't want to be under the effect.
    
2. Stasis - "Enemies are frozen in place if they happen to be in the Rift." - not sure it really needs any changes, it's really good on it's own. Someone might suggest any improvements or changes, but for now, I have no idea.
    
3. Rift Surge - "Enemies in the Rift who are under this effect will Banish other enemies adjacent to them outside the Rift." - ... To be honest, I don't know what audience or demographic finds this ability useful, and I admit though - I believe I don't find it useful. Most people would rather not be put under Banish as much as they would not like to stay in the Rift for prolonged periods of time to utilize this particular ability as much as possible. Some people want to use their weapons, powers, or both unabated.
   
   I would recommend changing it to something else entirely that is useful, or make it a cyclable ability with 3 other extra effects - Rift Surge as one, and whatever 3 there will be (Enemies fight each other, enemy weapons are disable, enemies are morph into harmless or less harmful creatures while in the Rift and under the effect, etc?)
    
4. Cataclysm - "Tear open a huge pocket to the Rift plane for a short time." - not sure if this ability needs changing, as there is probably a big enough audience who doesn't mind being in the Rift in whatever circumstance warrants using Cataclysm.
    
5. Passive - "Limbo opens a small portal to the Rift and shifts into another dimension as he dodges, and comes back into the physical world by dodging again" - Again, change it where "tapping" the dodge key allows Limbo to "transition" into the Rift without leaving behind a portal, and "holding" allows Limbo to "transition" into the Rift and leaving a portal behind him.

Also, it would be nice if there was proper incentive, and a non-invasive one at that, that encourages players to use their powers when in the Rift - since powers affect enemies no matter what plane they are on. But I am not sure how that both be properly conveyed to new players and any player that is unaware of this fact when working in proximity to a Limbo, and neither do I have any idea how to make it worthwhile.

Perhaps enemies are more prone/vulnerable to Warframe powers when under the effects of the Rift? Perhaps Warframe powers are augmented while in the Rift? I am not sure.

[EinheriarJudith]

5 hours ago, Xemgoa said:

~snip~

both PsiWarp and FoxFX have made great long rework threads for limbo. for me, no matter what change you make to him, if they do not remove his intrusiveness it wont matter. the Rift is the root problem not the skills.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

both PsiWarp and FoxFX have made great long rework threads for limbo. for me, no matter what change you make to him, if they do not remove his intrusiveness it wont matter. the Rift is the root problem not the skills.

All warframes are intrusive. The second that you kill an enemy, that is one less enemy that other players in your squad can kill. That's an intrusion.

[ArmsForPeace84]

1 hour ago, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

All warframes are intrusive. The second that you kill an enemy, that is one less enemy that other players in your squad can kill. That's an intrusion.

True, but I'd still be delighted to download some future update and see a menu setting to opt out of your warframe being directly affected by the abilities of other warframes in your squad. Apart, of course, from things like distracting visual effects (cue Christian Bale on-set breakdown), which can be mitigated with an existing toggle switch. Maybe with limits on how soon you can toggle it again, so it's less open to abuse in-mission. It'd be a double-edged sword, since you wouldn't get Energy Vampire stimmy checks, for instance.

Would a lot of tenno just set it and forget it? Yeah, probably. Would that break some things about the game, at least when playing with randoms? Yeah, probably. Do I hate Limbo and his stupid hat enough to not care?

Yeah, probably.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

1 hour ago, ZokuGojira said:

True, but I'd still be delighted to download some future update and see a menu setting to opt out of your warframe being directly affected by the abilities of other warframes in your squad.

It already exists. You just set it to solo and that's it.

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, ZokuGojira said:

True, but I'd still be delighted to download some future update and see a menu setting to opt out of your warframe being directly affected by the abilities of other warframes in your squad. Apart, of course, from things like distracting visual effects (cue Christian Bale on-set breakdown), which can be mitigated with an existing toggle switch. Maybe with limits on how soon you can toggle it again, so it's less open to abuse in-mission. It'd be a double-edged sword, since you wouldn't get Energy Vampire stimmy checks, for instance.

Would a lot of tenno just set it and forget it? Yeah, probably. Would that break some things about the game, at least when playing with randoms? Yeah, probably. Do I hate Limbo and his stupid hat enough to not care?

Yeah, probably.

I think it'd be more reasonable to design Limbo better.

Ultimately, the Rift, at least in its current manifestation, is a problem. Mainly for its capacity to hurt others experience unintentionally. If you just stick to the ol' Bubble-and-Freeze, then what's in the rift and what isn't is incredibly easy to discern, and the area in which 'you can affect enemies' and 'you can't' is clearly defined. But if you throw Rift Surge into the mix, suddenly it isn't. If you use Banish and lose track of a a straggler? With a duration-focused build (And many Limbo builds are), they're staying there for a minute or so. To be honest, at least for me, that's hugely discouraging to my experience as well, on multiple levels. I don't want to hurt other people's experience. I want to be able to make full use of Limbo's kit. These two objectives are mutually exclusive in team play, under his current design. This naturally leads to me being almost exclusively a solo player, because one way or another, playing in a team is a bad time.

There's a degree of being willing to meet half-way, instead of the current situation which leads to 'just play Limbo in solo'. I don't want to lose the Rift Mechanic, and on some level it's important that settings like the above doesn't exist (It would break a lot of things about the game) but I'm more than happy to see him see large changes elsewhere. Hell, he probably needs some for other reasons as well.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

what's in the rift and what isn't is incredibly easy to discern

That;s dependent on energy colors. An artificial boundary set by DE (like the highly visible one for Excavators) might be better using a secondary Energy color (like secondary Emissive).

[Zeddypanda]

12 minutes ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

That;s dependent on energy colors.

I'd love to know which energy colour I should run to easily discern riftyness! Bright green or pink have not been helpful.

[Loza03]

31 minutes ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

That;s dependent on energy colors. An artificial boundary set by DE (like the highly visible one for Excavators) might be better using a secondary Energy color (like secondary Emissive).

True, that's fair. I think also a better rift effect would help a lot. Even as a Limbo, discerning the difference is a nuisance. And if it's nuisance for the guy who's signed up to deal with it, I can't imagine what it's like for the guy who hasn't. Partial transparency to things on the other side feels like a reasonable suggestion.

 

19 minutes ago, Zeddypanda said:

I'd love to know which energy colour I should run to easily discern riftyness! Bright green or pink have not been helpful.

In terms of the cataclysm, I think that something like Mirage's hall of mirrors effect (where it clears away around your crosshair to give you a better look) would help reduce visual noise. But I'm fairly sure that energy colour doesn't affect what the rift effect on enemies looks like, and the effect is way to limited anyway.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

True, that's fair. I think also a better rift effect would help a lot. Even as a Limbo, discerning the difference is a nuisance. And if it's nuisance for the guy who's signed up to deal with it, I can't imagine what it's like for the guy who hasn't. Partial transparency to things on the other side feels like a reasonable suggestion.

Any visual thing DE does will vary with the PC guys like us messing with the graphics settings.

IDK - maybe a Mirage doppelganger hole throughout Rifted targets so they look like Swiss cheese?

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

11 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

I'd love to know which energy colour I should run to easily discern riftyness! Bright green or pink have not been helpful.

The darker the color, the more transparent it is. Rift effects aren't totally tied to color saturation, but the Cataclysm bubble is (use bright colors).

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

16 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I think it'd be more reasonable to design Limbo better.

Ultimately, the Rift, at least in its current manifestation, is a problem. Mainly for its capacity to hurt others experience unintentionally. If you just stick to the ol' Bubble-and-Freeze, then what's in the rift and what isn't is incredibly easy to discern, and the area in which 'you can affect enemies' and 'you can't' is clearly defined. But if you throw Rift Surge into the mix, suddenly it isn't. If you use Banish and lose track of a a straggler? With a duration-focused build (And many Limbo builds are), they're staying there for a minute or so. To be honest, at least for me, that's hugely discouraging to my experience as well, on multiple levels. I don't want to hurt other people's experience. I want to be able to make full use of Limbo's kit. These two objectives are mutually exclusive in team play, under his current design. This naturally leads to me being almost exclusively a solo player, because one way or another, playing in a team is a bad time.

There's a degree of being willing to meet half-way, instead of the current situation which leads to 'just play Limbo in solo'. I don't want to lose the Rift Mechanic, and on some level it's important that settings like the above doesn't exist (It would break a lot of things about the game) but I'm more than happy to see him see large changes elsewhere. Hell, he probably needs some for other reasons as well.

If you remember Limbo's rift effects back in the day, they were these massive phantom zone flames. You can't miss a rifted enemy. 

But people complained. If its just 1 enemy, its fine but if its a whole platoon, you'll see nothing but white.

Rift stragglers are no problem anymore even on duration builds. All you need to do is hold down his banish and it dispels everything. The real problem is the player. Does the player know this? If they don't then they become a determent to their squad and is by no fault of the warframe. But the warframe still gets blamed. Try using a slowva on a defense mission and you'll get blasted because you didn't know negative power strength makes enemies move faster. Try using a fast nova on a steel path defense and you'll still get blasted.

The only improvement Limbo needs is something all other warframes could benefit from. A decent "hold your hand" tutorial. Watch as almost every week there is a forum post about a Limbo bug where "he can't pick up items" or "he can't kill enemies." I'm not saying the player base is dumb but this game doesn't explain itself well.

 

[Loza03]

12 hours ago, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

If you remember Limbo's rift effects back in the day, they were these massive phantom zone flames. You can't miss a rifted enemy. 

But people complained. If its just 1 enemy, its fine but if its a whole platoon, you'll see nothing but white.

I'm sure there's a comfortable middle ground that exists between 'blinding white flames' and 'almost no effect whatsoever'. It's one of Limbo's most annoying characteristics even without it's anti-social elements, and still trips me up after several years of playing him.

12 hours ago, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

Rift stragglers are no problem anymore even on duration builds. All you need to do is hold down his banish and it dispels everything. The real problem is the player. Does the player know this? If they don't then they become a determent to their squad and is by no fault of the warframe. But the warframe still gets blamed. Try using a slowva on a defense mission and you'll get blasted because you didn't know negative power strength makes enemies move faster. Try using a fast nova on a steel path defense and you'll still get blasted.

What is the fault of the Warframe is that that they can do it in the first place, and we have to take a look at it and say 'could removing or reducing this negative interaction be done without damaging the main effect of the ability or the theme of the frame', and if it's even necessary. Personally, I would say Limbo falls well into the category that he could be reasonably adjusted. It's posssibly not worth a rework on its own, but as a facet of a larger one, maybe.

12 hours ago, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

The only improvement Limbo needs is something all other warframes could benefit from. A decent "hold your hand" tutorial. Watch as almost every week there is a forum post about a Limbo bug where "he can't pick up items" or "he can't kill enemies." I'm not saying the player base is dumb but this game doesn't explain itself well.

A tutorial would be great, for more than just Limbo, but frankly speaking, he's probably in need of a rework for reasons beyond that.

If we're really being honest, Limbo is not a reasonable frame design due almost entirely to Stasis. Stasis basically invalidates a huge portion of Limbo's core design - that his absolute defence is predicated on absolute inability to deal damage whilst active. Stasis'd enemies are entirely unable to defend themselves or attack Limbo, meaning that a Limbo sitting in their bubble is entirely immune to everything short of a nullifier or whatever other arbitrarily-immune enemy shows up, whilst still having combat capabilities. There's a reason that he was so widely used in Scarlet Spear in Space. Before the Sentient changes (which, to be honest, were just a normalisation of something that already happened) he could basically borderline afk it. Strictly speaking, he wouldn't even need to be present beyond the inital oplink placement, since the bubble could be replaced with ability kinesis and (unless I am dramatically misinformed from my several years of understanding) Stasis has infinite range, so long as there are targets inside the rift. Certainly, it still worked whenever I decided to recall, which doesn't cancel abilities.

Needless to say, a frame with nigh-infinite range ability that completely disables every form of resistance enemies affected by it may offer whilst simultaneously providing complete resistance to everything not affected and a supply of energy which lets that be effectively used at will might just be a teensy bit overpowered. Limbo isn't OP in the same visibly obvious way something like the Bramma is, but he's well above the curve. He probably deserves a rework on that alone - taking the opportunity to make him more social would just be an added bonus.

[ArmsForPeace84]

On 2021-03-31 at 3:37 AM, Loza03 said:

There's a degree of being willing to meet half-way, instead of the current situation which leads to 'just play Limbo in solo'. I don't want to lose the Rift Mechanic, and on some level it's important that settings like the above doesn't exist (It would break a lot of things about the game) but I'm more than happy to see him see large changes elsewhere. Hell, he probably needs some for other reasons as well.

I wasn't being clear enough that I'm not advocating for it. I'll own that. But I'd be over here playing the world's smallest shawzin for the troll frames, all the same.

The things it would break, those sound like "a problem for Future Homer."

[Loza03]

54 minutes ago, ZokuGojira said:

I wasn't being clear enough that I'm not advocating for it. I'll own that. But I'd be over here playing the world's smallest shawzin for the troll frames, all the same.

The things it would break, those sound like "a problem for Future Homer."

I mean, when Limbo Prime was announced, I did run some tests on the fastest ways to force-break stasis, back when it froze bullets and breaking stasis was a thing. So I can certainly empathize with the idea.

 

Still, I've met Future  Homer, dude's an a-hole, loves to procrastinate second only to me, best not hand things off to him. 

[Teridax68]

On 2021-03-31 at 1:11 AM, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

All warframes are intrusive. The second that you kill an enemy, that is one less enemy that other players in your squad can kill. That's an intrusion.

Yes, which is why when a warframe kills too many enemies too quickly, e.g. Mesa or Saryn in some missions, players complain, because while having a few less enemies to deal with is an intrusion most players can accept, even welcome, having essentially no enemies to fight prevents people from engaging in the thing they play Warframe to do. I would also argue that it's not a direct intrusion: the player may have one less enemy to fight, but at the end they retain full personal agency and the basic ability to interact with the environment, as well as whichever enemies remain. By contrast, Limbo's intrusion is direct, in that being in the Rift disables certain fundamental interactions and prevents Tenno and enemies from interacting normally. This can be beneficial, but can also be frustrating, especially if the Limbo player doesn't know what they're doing. By contrast, an incompetent player playing essentially any other frame just won't be carrying their weight, nor would they be actively impeding the experience of others unless they botch a Sortie Spy vault or the like.

I also agree with @EinheriarJudithhere: Limbo's central problem is with his Rift mechanic and how easily it can cause gameplay for his allies to grind to a halt. There are some other issues with his active abilities I think (Cataclysm + Stasis just shuts down all interaction with enemies by nature, with ability nullification being the only way to reinstate it), but his core mechanic needs to be addressed first before anything else can be developed around it. I can agree with some of the suggestions made in the OP, such as preventing the base Banish from banishing allies and reworking Rift Surge, but still believe a fully effective rework ought to address the Rift itself.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

Look at the bright side. At least Limbo can't rift your fishing spear and then stasis it anymore.

LOLZ

[Lutesque]

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

One ability that cycles through 4 different effects.

Oh god No !!! Please Nooooooo !!! 😱 !!!

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

Abilities that alternate between effects when tapping or holding down a key when casting

As long as I don't have to be moving then I'm down with this one. 👍

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

Stasis - "Enemies are frozen in place if they happen to be in the Rift." - not sure it really needs any changes, it's really good on it's own. Someone might suggest any improvements or changes, but for now, I have no idea.

Ah Stasis.... Removing Enemies from the Equation.... 😝....

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

•  
• Rift Surge - "Enemies in the Rift who are under this effect will Banish other enemies adjacent to them outside the Rift." - ... To be honest, I don't know what audience or demographic finds this ability useful, and I admit though - I believe I don't find it useful

Dude... 😳 Rift Surge is what you use if you want to keep your Max Range Build against the Corpus Faction.... The only reason people don't use it is because the Description makes it sound more complicated than it is....

The way it works is..... Once an Enemy is in the Rift (doesn't matter how)....  You can hit them with Rift Surge.... And here's the important part... If a Surged Enemy Leaves the Rift for whatever Reason (except Nullifiers obviously)... Then they are immediately Rebanished back into the Rift.... 

That's it... That's all you need to know.... Rift Surge has other effects too... Namely that just like Banish it's an AoE and the effect also Spreads when you kill enemies but all that is not important.... All you need to know is you can take your Max Range Limbo into a Corpus Mission and Banish a few Enemies... Hit them with Rift Surge.... Open a Cataclysm.... Nullifiers disables the Cataclysm causing the Rift Surge to Trigger.... reactivate Rift Surge then Cataclysm then Rift Surge Then Cataclysm... And on and on until you have all the Enemies Covered....

Then if you think the Nullifiers are a threat you can just kill them and only them...

 

Rift Surge has an Entirely other Build if you use Rift Torrent.... In that case you can do the one thing nobody ever does.... You can ignore Stasis.... The Build doesn't have enough Duration to make Stasis practical so there's no reason to use it.... It's probably Limbo's most Fun and Least intrusive Build but I haven't seen it in years 😱 !!!

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

I would recommend changing it to something else entirely that is useful, 

It is useful.... It's just not needed In 2 Contexts.... It just so happens to be that those to Contexts are Limbo's Bread and Butter... Hence why people think it's useless.

If you're a True Limbo Main then Rift Surge will allow you to use Limbo Practically in many other Contexts.... 

On 2021-03-30 at 6:04 PM, Xemgoa said:

Passive - "Limbo opens a small portal to the Rift and shifts into another dimension as he dodges, and comes back into the physical world by dodging again" - Again, change it where "tapping" the dodge key allows Limbo to "transition" into the Rift without leaving behind a portal, and "holding" allows Limbo to "transition" into the Rift and leaving a portal behind him.

How do I slide then ? 😱 

On 2021-03-30 at 11:26 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

both PsiWarp and FoxFX have made great long rework threads for limbo. for me, no matter what change you make to him, if they do not remove his intrusiveness it wont matter. the Rift is the root problem not the skills.

This is Essentially what it boils down to....

And the reason why I never recommend Reworking Limbo is because There is literally nobody else that can do what Limbo does the WAY he does it.... It's an aspect I don't want to Change....

If DE wants to Remove stasis then that's fine... It's this AFK ability that really hurts this Character.... But the Rift Shenanigans I want left alone even though that's what hurts everyone else's Experience....

If anyone can come up with a Solution that keeps Rift Shenanigans then I'm down..... Otherwise.... I'd rather Limbo stay Unique 😝 !! 

On 2021-03-31 at 2:11 AM, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

All warframes are intrusive. The second that you kill an enemy, that is one less enemy that other players in your squad can kill. That's an intrusion.

Good Point 🤔 !!! 

On 2021-03-31 at 12:37 PM, Loza03 said:

I think it'd be more reasonable to design Limbo better:

Very True.... But... It's Also Harder as a Result...

On 2021-03-31 at 12:37 PM, Loza03 said:

I don't want to lose the Rift Mechanic

Me too.... Even when someone trolls me with it...

On 2021-03-31 at 3:30 PM, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

That;s dependent on energy colors. An artificial boundary set by DE (like the highly visible one for Excavators) might be better using a secondary Energy color (like secondary Emissive).

Would Purple work ? 🤔

On 2021-04-01 at 5:51 PM, Loza03 said:

 

If we're really being honest, Limbo is not a reasonable frame design due almost entirely to Stasis.

Hence why I don't mind giving that Specific Ability Up.... In most Situations.... 

On 2021-04-01 at 5:51 PM, Loza03 said:

Stasis has infinite range, so long as there are targets inside the rift. Certainly, it still worked whenever I decided to recall, which doesn't cancel abilities

True....but wait.... There's more.... Stasis is Also a Shared among Other Limbo's in the Same Squad.... If two Limbo's try to use Stasis.... The first one will enable it and the second will Disable Stasis.... The Modded Duration will be the only thing unique to each Limbo using Stasis.

 This is the only Ability I know that works like this to this Extent (There are other Abilities that Overrite Existing ones)....

On 2021-04-01 at 5:51 PM, Loza03 said:

He probably deserves a rework on that alone - taking the opportunity to make him more social would just be an added bonus.

So basically Limbo has a Social Disorder 😁 !!!

On 2021-04-01 at 11:01 PM, ZokuGojira said:

The things it would break, those sound like "a problem for Future Homer."

 

On 2021-04-02 at 12:42 AM, Loza03 said:

Still, I've met Future  Homer, dude's an a-hole, loves to procrastinate second only to me, best not hand things off to him. 

😝 !!!

 

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

17 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Would Purple work ? 🤔

Enter Simulacrum, change Appearance and cast 👍