Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Underlined section is the point I am trying to make, there is nothing here that would make people go. "Oh wow, that mode looks great! I want to do that!" Its just gutted Conclave gameplay with different models. (if we are using the gameplay we saw from the demo as the pace you want for this game mode.) And at that point, what useful data is their for Conclave to use if the core mechanics work differently?

It would draw in new players by being a very available option. No need to buy anything, no grind beforehand, and no gear difference between old and new players (besides possible cosmetics). If I'm a player who finds enjoyment in PvP (someone who wouldn't play Warframe in the first place), and I hear a F2P game has a pretty decent PvP game mode (more that can be said about Conclave) that takes no investment from me beyond completing a tutorial, I'd be willing to try it out. Maybe in playing this game mode I find the core mechanics of Warframe interesting (the ones we keep in this mode), and I decide to play the actual game. Even if I don't wanna play actual Warframe, I'm still playing the game regularly if I enjoy it enough, and If DE decides to add cosmetic plat purchases, I might even put money in.

As for it being gutted Conclave, I'd argue that less is more in that case, as the features we're removing from Conclave made the gameplay worse and less fair. If this mode gets good reception, that doesn't reflect on Conclave specifically, but it's an indication that PvP content would be something worth pursuing further, which would incentivize reworking Conclave by way of it already being in the game.

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

So what makes this mode any different from Conclave or Lunaro? They both started (as far as I know) as essential clean PvP slates for DE to work with and it didn't pan out. What makes this new suggested mode any different?

They were clean PvP slates, but DE didn't address the core issue of Warframes not being compatible with PvP gameplay, so these modes were doomed to fail as long as DE tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. They can tweak abilities and weapons to try and make them acceptable in PvP, but it'll never be a clean translation. This mode keeps the gunplay and abilities of Warframe, with both being specifically designed for this PvP mode. There's no attempt to translate PvE gameplay to PvP, because the PvP gameplay is being built from a basic framework that has none of the existing obstacles that Warframes have as PvE characters.

2 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

If you are going to use existing weapons for this mode, which do they use? The Conclave version or the Main Game version? Do they build the characters around the existing guns stats or do they need to make new stats for weapons so they work properly with the existing health, armor, and shields systems used in the demo?

Again, if the weapons aren't expansive and just the ones we've used before but slightly tuned for this version of PvP, the maps are from an already existing system, and no modding, what will draw people in?? It sounds like it will be using existing assets we've already seen but with slowed down gameplay. I don't know how that can draw people in.

The stats shown in the demo would be slightly altered, and the weapon stats would be designed around that. This does mean more work as stats are being remade, but the amount of weapons in the actual mode would be miniscule (6-8 weapons, 3-4 for each side, more can be added later) compared to base Warframe and Conclave, which really simplifies balance.

I think it's important to mention that the New War demo is not exactly what we'd see in this sort of gameplay: We'd get more abilities, better movement (but not Warframe movement), and some general improvements to make it feel better than it probably will in the New War. These would be small changes, not redoing what they've made for the New War.

And I'll reiterate why this draws people in: New players have a very available PvP option that's decently made, and existing PvE players have an option for repetitive content if they're open to it. 

While it doesn't draw in the exclusively PvE crowd, the framework is already there, so this isn't as much of a developer time sink to create it as the large PvE content we get seasonally in place of fixing old systems.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

and have zero evidence

PvP is dead. What more "evidence" do you need?

As for your ridiculous claim that fixing PvP could be economical, it's not even the case for full-fledged PvP games that were designed from the ground up to be about that. DE has a small mound of "content" that exists for it currently and the task ahead is to build it into a mountain. Your optimism simply doesn't mesh with reality. It's surprisingly naive, actually.

[TeaHands]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

-snip- 

I'm just gonna tap out on this, it might just be me not seeing the vision here, and I'm done being a party pooper. Agree to disagree. I hope if DE does take on PvP in this fashion that they catch lightning in a bottle. Have a good day.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

PvP is dead. What more "evidence" do you need?

As for your ridiculous claim that fixing PvP could be economical, it's not even the case for full-fledged PvP games that were designed from the ground up to be about that. DE has a small mound of "content" that exists for it currently and the task ahead is to build it into a mountain. Your optimism simply doesn't mesh with reality. It's surprisingly naive, actually.

Ah, yes, the same old tired catch-22. PvP is dead. So let's revive it! But PvP is dead. So let's revive it! But PvP is dead...

And "ridiculous claim"? I don't think you've considered anything I brought up, have you? You know, you're right.

DE could never add bots to Conclave.  Bots, in Warframe??? Pah!

DE could never add SBMM to divide players of different skill levels.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Conclave#Recruit_Conditioning

Conclave could never work without dedicated servers.

DE could never balance powers and weapons separate from PvE.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Conclave#Allowed_Warframes_and_Weapons

And DE could never adjust numbers like weapon damage or the revive timer.

Spoiler

Update 22.14 (2018-03-01)

• End point of Ignis weapons are now 1m from 3m in Conclave.
• Ignis magazine capacity reduced to 30 in Conclave.
• Ignis Wraith mag capacity reduced to 40 in Conclave.
• Spectra magazine capacity increased to 30 in Conclave.
• Amprex magazine capacity reduced to 40 in Conclave.
• Glaxion magazine capacity reduced to 30 in Conclave.
• Nukor ammo capacity reduced to 60 in Conclave.
• Synapse damage reduced from 19 to 18 in Conclave.
• Synapse magazine capacity reduced from 30 to 25 in Conclave.
• Embolist ammo capacity increased to 50 in Conclave.
• Synoid Gammacor damage reduced from 20 to 19 in Conclave.

Surely DE could never let players play as Grineer or Corpus.

These things are simply too uneconomical to do, even though they've already been done.

[FrostDragoon]

Bots in PvP is a dumb idea in the first place. It's a band-aid for the fact that it is dead. Then you want them to add matchmaking and a bunch of other features that aren't as "ready to go" as you make them sound, then insist it's not going to be expensive.

 

You're straight delusional, dawg.

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Bots in PvP is a dumb idea in the first place. It's a band-aid for the fact that it is dead. Then you want them to add matchmaking and a bunch of other features that aren't as "ready to go" as you make them sound, then insist it's not going to be expensive.

 

You're straight delusional, dawg.

It's called a "loss leader", adding bots is just to get people into the door so games can run. It's there to get people who have been prejudiced against PvP because "it's not Warframe" despite having never even tried it (cough cough) to put their foot in the water. And if just two people think "ah, I can go farm some bots for that sweet Conclave swag" at the same time then boom! They're in Conclave and playing it. And with other improvements to make Conclave more fun, like by utilizing and updating the features they already have, then people can stick around instead of being driven away.

And like clockwork, now we're on to the ad hominems because there's literally nothing to your argument besides "well I don't like it". And it's not about you, sweetheart.

[EmberStar]

 

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

(snip, just because the pictures are big and the text without them is too easy to see as "out of context."  Sorry.)

"If it's so easy, then why don't you just whip up an example map for them?  All the coding is simple right?"

Because that's a disingenuous strawman.

DE makes spaghetti code.  Just because a thing exists in one form in the game doesn't mean they can move it to another mission easily, let alone combine all those things.

Just look at the bug accumulation with *animations* for crying out loud.

In no particular order:

When I walk through my orbiter, my Warframe turns to look at completely random points in space.  Why?  I have no exact idea, except that I *think* somehow it's triggering off the "turn to face NPC" code, which might have somehow been activated for every place where the Void Specter can pop in and say "Boo!"  IE, my Warframe is turning to look at a dozen different invisible NPCs that are apparently hanging around the orbiter.

In missions, something has gone "off" with the direction my Warframe faces.  Instead of looking at whatever the crosshair is pointing at, they look at a point about 20 degrees above that, resulting in running everywhere with their neck tilted back at a pretty uncomfortable looking angle.  Recently something that *looks* similar but is probably completely unrelated has started happening in Railjack missions, *especially* when piloting hijaacked ships.

If you move the camera in front of the warframe, they'll try to turn to face towards the crosshair.  If they turn to the right, they have a normal range of motion.  If they turn *left,* their head turns more than 90 degrees, and even more on a couple specific frames.  It is *very* noticeable, and looks really kind of bad.

 

That's just a few examples, I was compiling a list for a while that got a couple pages before I realized there was absolutely no point and deleted it.  Three examples, "easy to fix," right?  I've reported all of those, and a couple have been in the game for *years.*  That's not even counting "small and easy to fix" issues with some models, like how Mag Deluxe has messed up triangles on the back of her right hand, or how one of the Ember skins has a slightly different neck geometry that results in her looking half decapitated with most alternate helmets.  All "small, simple, easy to fix."  Except none of them get fixed, because they aren't game-breaking and therefore aren't a priority.  And because they apparently *aren't* simple to fix - I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone points something out to me that I could correct easily, I usually just *go do that,* because it's less frustrating than waiting for them to point it out again.  (Which they will.)

Just because bots exist in the Index doesn't mean that it's easy, or even *possible* to port them to any other mission.  Depending on how they were implemented, they could be completely tied to the code for that specific mission type, and moving them anywhere else would be non-trivial.  (How would that work?  I'm not completely certain, but I think it might be related to how it randomly selects different NPCs each time they get KO'd.)  I'm NOT a programmer, so I can't say whether it is or isn't.  But the fact that DE has NOT done it would imply, once again, that however much effort it takes is more than they are willing to spend.  There's actually three different examples of NPC bots, in fact - Index, Rathuum, and the Dog Days squirtgun tag.  They *have* reused the trick, but haven't tried to put it into PVP.  That says *something.*  What it says to me is that one way or another, they don't think PVP is currently worth that much effort.  (How much effort?  Apparently less than however much it would take to implement PVP bots, when they already have working PVE bots.)

*Later Edit*  Thinking about it, the case for bots in PVP gets even worse.  Because "Railjack crew."  They have added a system with *customizable* NPC bots, where players can somewhat direct their behavior, and even customize their weapons and looks within limits.  But they didn't add this for PVP.

[Paranoicon]

I have never touched Conclave. Ever. And I have very little desire to do so in its current state.

But here come the caveats, and they're going to fall one after the other.

The main reason I don't want to engage with Conclave is Warframe's very iconic Advanced Mobility mechanics. All of the parkour movements that you can do make you extremely agile, slippery, and hard to hit. And I'm not throwing shade at the folks that enjoy Conclave, but from what I've experienced in other games with similar mechanics, it's a perpetual clusterf(u)ck of things happening in no particular order until they stop because someone died. Which is to say: I can't wrap my head around it.
Advanced Mobility mechanics are something that affects PvP games in a way very few other things do. It makes the skill ceiling skyrocket, but it raises the skill floor just that much. Currently, Warframe has absolutely nothing to give new players an in into the Conclave ecosystem. And even though Conclave players are fairly welcoming, allegedly, that doesn't do much to curb the barrier that Advanced Mobility mechanics are.

Now remove Advanced Mobility from the equation. And remove Warframe abilities from the equation. And remove mods from the equation.

The skill floor, which was already fairly low with players not having to deal with Advanced Mobility mechanics, drops further. Twice. Now, Conclave is a mode that, as a skill floor, only requires you to know how to move, fire a gun, maybe read if there's objectives, and cooperate with a team.
And yes, I know some people find the latter extremely difficult.
Still, all of a sudden, you have created a Conclave, or a Conclave game mode, that allows people to simply jump in and perform moderately to fairly well without the need of countless hours of practice. Someone is curious, they jump in for a match or two, and their team might not win, but they still did a decent job, and they are aware of what resulted on their loss. Which, generally, means they'll likely be confident enough in their ability to jump in for another match later down the line.

And, this is going to be hard to believe, given we're talking about Warframe in the Warframe forum, but:

They might not do it because there are resources to farm, or standing to gain, or loot to acquire. Instead, they might do it because it's fun.

So, in short, I am very much in favor of this idea.

Second caveat, though, is that I don't necessarily know if it should be a Conclave game mode, or a separate game entirely. The reason for this is as simple as the way Warframe is advertised. A Co-Op loot-based space shooter with Advanced Mobility.
It's not a game that anyone would expect to have a mode that is close to being the direct opposite of what's advertised. And while I think that simple fact is likely to make a moderately decent PvP mode seem solid in comparison, I can't deny the possibility that the expectation of "A Co-Op etc..." could end up harming this new PvP mode. If it's handled with the appropriate level of care, which shouldn't be that much, in all fairness, it probably won't prove an issue. However, what with DE's very publicly known management issues, and the fact they're likely working full gear on The New War, appropriate handling is a bit more unlikely than it should be.
If it's handled as a separate project from Warframe, that simply utilizes the Warframe IP, as well as some assets and code, then that could allow a (hopefully better managed) department within DE to focus exclusively on this game, as well as tailor content for it, rather than being another thing nailed to Warframe's... ahem rear.

Which, let me not mince words, is already pretty f(u)cking fat as-is.

The third caveat comes with the availability, and the ease of implementation of this mode.
Plainly put, I don't think it'd be that hard. At least not currently. A large part of the things I would've considered to be the "tough stuff" has already been done. Some, directed towards Conclave, while other things have been done for other reasons or game modes.

As-is, right, now, I think the hardest thing DE would have to do would be to decide how exactly do they want to handle this game mode.

Do they wanna do a Grunts V Grunts and leave it at that until further notice? Do they want something a bit more elaborate with specific classes? Do they want to meet Battlefront halfway and have "hero units" (Think: Bosses/Liches), but no vehicles? Or do they want to just go ham, and try to imitate the Battlefront experience as closesly as they can? Or, perhaps, they want to get cute with it and experiment with a Mann V Machine sort of gamemode first, where Grineer and Corpus join forces against the Infestation/Sentients?

That is the hardest part. If they don't have a strong enough vision, it will be no different from Frame Fighter. And once again, management issues rear their head, because if it's not handled appropriately, in an appropriate timeframe, by someone who has confidence on the game mode, it will end up getting scrapped and downscaled into something that also will be dead on arrival.

So, in hindsight, I guess I lied. The hardest part is not the implementation of the mechanics. The hardest part is finding someone at DE that genuinely believes in this project, and will be willing to deliver it in a state solid enough it can be iterated from.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. I'll leave this soapbox on the left of the stage, behind the curtains, in case anyone wants to stand on it.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

(polite snip)

And my apologies, it seems like your thread has been sort of hijaacked by a much older and only slightly related topic.  OnO

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Just because bots exist in the Index doesn't mean that it's easy, or even *possible* to port them to any other mission. Depending on how they were implemented, they could be completely tied to the code for that specific mission type, and moving them anywhere else would be non-trivial. 

The Index, Arena, and Dog Days are all Conclave game modes ported to PvE. I'm not making this up, go play it and compare them. They use the same intro, the same announcer system, the same UI, the same spawning rules, the same items, the same maps, the same everything! The only difference is the loadouts and that one team is filled with bots while in the Index (and Dog Days?) the other team is only filled with bots when there aren't players. And we know NPCs already work in Conclave too because Khora has Venari and Atlas has his Rumblers. And before Conclave we had bots in the PvP Solar Rail Conflicts fighting alongside/against players (https://youtu.be/d5V49Nqpt_c?t=284). They've already figured this logic out, and it turns out for quite a long time!

So either DE is full of dumb dumbs who don't understand OOP and they've recreated the same logic in three different places for no reason, or these modes can share features because they're built on top of the same stuff. And ironically, having NPCs that spawn in the Index is probably a standard feature that was disabled for the Conclave game mode and then turned back on later. Moving bots up to the parent class is pretty much a copy-paste job. I am a programmer, and video game development pays my mortgage. Something like this would be easy on the game I work on, so I can't imagine why it'd be any different for DE. Code is code, and there's no reason for DE's C++ to be any different than mine. The only reason I'm pushing so hard against this "it's too hard" angle is because I know that it isn't. There's no reason for it to be. Like you say, it's...

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

"easy to fix," right? 

And it is, for both your examples and with Conclave. But like you say:

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

they aren't game-breaking and therefore aren't a priority.

It's not that they're hard, it's that DE hasn't gotten around to doing anything about them.

All of these things are easy to fix. From there the only question is should they. And if people can turn off their prejudices against competitive content for a second then it's easy to see that fixing up Conclave and adding stuff like a Grineer vs Corpus mode could provide a number of easy wins. For one it's seemingly the one new type of PvP that gets suggested the most; there's been strong interest in this for years. It could also generate new interest from non-players who might be interested in that awesome F2P game's new PvP mode, and it could create long-term content for bored veterans to play between updates. DE  could carry these changes over and lift the Armistice, giving clans a place to compete and be active in. And at what cost? Barely anything. This stuff is easy, and they've already made it. They just need to hear that people are interested, which I think it's obvious some people are, and put the LEGO pieces together.

[----Legacy----]

5 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

This would be valid if DE actually addressed and fixed existing systems that need the attention. Things like Archwing, Railjack, K-Drive (for both players who enjoy that), etc. If the overall approach from DE was that they cared about all these systems and actively kept them in good working order and up to date, sure... *then* you might have an argument for PvP because it conceivably wouldn't come at the cost of PvE needing so much attention still.

That's an issue on DE's entire development cycle since they usually add something new, make it "playable" and then move onto the next huge project, forgetting everything that's already in the game. The amount of stuff they've added to PvE is what makes it require such a huge amount of attention, which in PvP isn't an issue since it remains playable for people who like it despite the lack of attention it has gotten in the last years.

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Btw, you can't blame it on the anti-PvP crowd that the pro-PvP side was losing player interest and couldn't make a good case for continued dev time/attention. 

Yeah, let's totally omit that the "wonderful warframe community" does its best to send away any new player who shows any legitimate interest in conclave, just like they start raging directly to the devs any time conclave is mentioned in the patch notes. This community is overal mature enough to never do such things.

 

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Players will look for the easiest, cheesiest, laziest ways to win in PvP and that ruins the fun for everyone else. PvPers only have themselves and each other to blame.

Oddly enough, the only people i've seen using the easiest, cheesiest and laziest ways to win in PvP are PvE players who don't care about having any snippet of fun and just want the rewards asap. Some don't even care about the rewards and do that in Recruit Conditioning to gatekeep their precious game knowing that in there they will only be facing new players since the good ones are already unable to get in there. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

35 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Yeah, let's totally omit that the "wonderful warframe community" does its best to send away any new player who shows any legitimate interest in conclave, just like they start raging directly to the devs any time conclave is mentioned in the patch notes. This community is overal mature enough to never do such things.

I can admit I'm very guilty of this, and I'm not even a hardcore PvE only type of player. Any time a new player in our alliance asks about Conclave, I'll tell them it's not worth their time. I do still think Conclave is generally not worth someone's time, but it definitely doesn't help Conclave's popularity when I or anyone else do that.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, Paranoicon said:

Second caveat, though, is that I don't necessarily know if it should be a Conclave game mode, or a separate game entirely. The reason for this is as simple as the way Warframe is advertised. A Co-Op loot-based space shooter with Advanced Mobility.
It's not a game that anyone would expect to have a mode that is close to being the direct opposite of what's advertised. And while I think that simple fact is likely to make a moderately decent PvP mode seem solid in comparison, I can't deny the possibility that the expectation of "A Co-Op etc..." could end up harming this new PvP mode. If it's handled with the appropriate level of care, which shouldn't be that much, in all fairness, it probably won't prove an issue. However, what with DE's very publicly known management issues, and the fact they're likely working full gear on The New War, appropriate handling is a bit more unlikely than it should be.
If it's handled as a separate project from Warframe, that simply utilizes the Warframe IP, as well as some assets and code, then that could allow a (hopefully better managed) department within DE to focus exclusively on this game, as well as tailor content for it, rather than being another thing nailed to Warframe's... ahem rear.

Yea this paragraph brings up a great point. A Corpus vs. Grineer mode would be the opposite of what Warframe is advertised as, and while it might be fun to play, probably would have trouble fitting in. I think overall making another game would be the best outcome, as it would fix this issue while also letting DE expand a lot more on this idea.

I'd probably want something similar to what Ubisoft did with Rainbow Six Siege's Operation Outbreak: Introduce a smaller version of the idea in the main game (in this case a permanent Conclave mode), throw a little event around it to get players trying it, and develop the full game passively over a long period of time while working on the main game's regular content. Granted the final product should not be the same quality as what Ubisoft produced, but their failings seem like more of a developer fault than a fault with their strategy. Hopefully DE can do something like this over the next few years, assuming they continue to grow as a studio.

The rest of the post, which I didn't quote in whole due to its size, is entirely stuff I agree with. Well said, and thanks for the write up.

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Oddly enough, the only people i've seen using the easiest, cheesiest and laziest ways to win in PvP are PvE players who don't care about having any snippet of fun and just want the rewards asap. Some don't even care about the rewards and do that in Recruit Conditioning to gatekeep their precious game knowing that in there they will only be facing new players since the good ones are already unable to get in there. 

Oh, right... How could I have forgotten? It's a conspiracy! Silly me. I guess you win this round.

DE: PvP fixes, when?

🙄

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Oddly enough, the only people i've seen using the easiest, cheesiest and laziest ways to win in PvP are PvE players who don't care about having any snippet of fun and just want the rewards asap.

Yeah, that's so weird.  It's almost like they're only there for the rewards, and want to get them as quickly as possible so they can get the hell out and go back to doing something they *do* enjoy.  Nah, that's silly, it's clearly a conspiracy to make PVP look bad.  Don't mind me.

[----Legacy----]

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Oh, right... How could I have forgotten? It's a conspiracy! Silly me. I guess you win this round.

DE: PvP fixes, when?

🙄

My bad, i guess you have enough experience playing conclave to back up the claim i quoted in my previous post, so i guess you know much better than anyone else.

1 minute ago, EmberStar said:

Yeah, that's so weird.  It's almost like they're only there for the rewards, and want to get them as quickly as possible so they can get the hell out and go back to doing something they *do* enjoy.  Nah, that's silly, it's clearly a conspiracy to make PVP look bad.  Don't mind me.

Psst, that was exactly the point, people who don't care about the mode happen to also be the ones giving it a bad reputation.

[FrostDragoon]

9 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

My bad, i guess you have enough experience playing conclave to back up the claim i quoted in my previous post, so i guess you know much better than anyone else.

I played it when it was new, saw it was pointless and full of balance and design flaws, and subsequently abandoned it--just like the vast majority of people who try it. It's dead for a very, very good reason. Rather than recommending new players subject themselves to that, I correctly inform them of what's in store for them and advise them against it--just like the vast majority of people who help new players.

Fortunately, DE has caught on to this trend and focuses their attention elsewhere. Plenty of other stuff could still use more attention, but at least they aren't wasting their time on fixing a mode that only 7 people play.

[Surbusken]

Whoever said pvp would be a disaster given their track record of weapon balance has a point.

The other thing for me is I am tired of investing time in things that are quickly abandoned, like what did I build a necramech for? To sit around for a year, waiting for some developer to decide to open notepad and type "enable=1" and save?

 

I think the selling point is more about novelty and lore, than actual gameplay though, which I will support for the game's sake even though I am not into it. I think a lot of people are totally into the iconic characters and having been waiting a long time for content related to them.

Would be really weird if they want so far as to create entire playable factions and then play through the game as corpus or infested or whatever.

The liberated grineer faction where clem shows up with messages instead of ordis, copy-paste a crewship as orbiter.

Like a playable lotus faction, I think a lot of people would be into that.

[PublikDomain]

18 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I played it when it was new

51 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Right, we agree. I have no argument. Thank you for the concession.

[EmberStar]

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

(clip)

 

You're going to do that?  Really?  Setting aside the possibility of more than one PC account:  sometimes the stats get bugged.  I *have* PVP stats, and I can promise that I have NEVER set foot in conclave.  Then how do I have PVP stats?  I have NO clue.

[PublikDomain]

7 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

You're going to do that?  Really?  Setting aside the possibility of more than one PC account:  sometimes the stats get bugged.  I *have* PVP stats, and I can promise that I have NEVER set foot in conclave.  Then how do I have PVP stats?  I have NO clue.

With Frost? At this point, absolutely.

[EmberStar]

In fact, I just checked.  I have no idea how, but my Conclave stats have actually *changed* since the last time I looked.  I now have 1 Conclave kill, and three deaths.  It used to be 0:1

I'm pretty sure I'd remember if I'd been in a conclave map long enough to actually *shoot* someone.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I played it on PS4, but nice try.

[PublikDomain]

43 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

In fact, I just checked.  I have no idea how, but my Conclave stats have actually *changed* since the last time I looked.  I now have 1 Conclave kill, and three deaths.  It used to be 0:1

I'm pretty sure I'd remember if I'd been in a conclave map long enough to actually *shoot* someone.

Oh I bet I know where you got those stats!

Spoiler

(Probably Quick Steel or something)

But seriously, I've tried reasoning things out with Frost, and they're not having it. It's a comically typical progression, too. It's always some new excuse or yabbut, or some iteration of "but what about me", followed up by ad hominems and insults when they can't come up with anything else. You seem much more reasonable and I'd be happy to go back to ice cream analogies, but Frost is about at the end of their rope. My only hope is that they can be a shining example for all of the kind of nonsense people have to deal with whenever they try to talk about PvP.

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 12 horas, FrostDragoon dijo:

You can't blame it on the anti-PvP crowd that the pro-PvP side was losing player interest.

 

hace 3 horas, FrostDragoon dijo:

Rather than recommending new players subject themselves to that, I correctly inform them of what's in store for them and advise them against it--just like the vast majority of people who help new players.

What a lovely contradiction.