Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[NotQuixotic]

Seeing the new sneakpeak of the New War, and specifically seeing Teshin, I thought that something similar to Starwars Battlefront would be sick. This could add onto pvp and make it less bland; this might as well add onto invasions.

[kaelvamp]

QuakeFrame. HELL YEAH!

[Sevek7]

Hi there. I'm a casual Warframe PvE player and also a Conclave payer. 

In the past, I've generally been against the (many) suggestions of a PvP Grineer Vs. Corpus mode, because I felt like this would take a large amount of development time (aesthetics, rigging, programming, other challenges, etc..). I've been aware that Conclave has some extremely absurd bugs & exploits that would take literally just a few minutes to fix (i.e.: Telos Boltace AllowInPvP = 1 to AllowInPvP = 0 [or whatever the syntax is]) which have for some reason been unfixed for several years. The fact that DE were not willing to spend these few minutes per year on a PvP mode convinced me that they were also not willing to spend several hours, days, weeks, months... to make Grineer Vs. Corpus a reality. 

However, TennoCon 2021 showed that they have been working on this! That's fantastic and I'm really looking forward to it, great job! When it comes to Conclave, I understand that PvP with highly mobile players is really damn hard to balance because players who can move fast while aiming are rare, but will have a very significant advantage. Obviously the answer is not to provide heal-on-kill mods that allows skilled players to go on absurd kill sprees, especially against new players. (Clearly, these kinds of kill-spree mods should be changed or removed...).

Now that grineer and corpus units are rigged up and ready to go, the PvP mode is the next step! I'm super excited and think it will be really fun. BUT... Just make sure you don't add crazy bonuses on kill. These heavily benefit skilled players and reduce the chances of new players by a significant amount. Of course, every skilled PvP player dreams of a high skill-gap game where their skill is dominant in all aspects. Unfortunately, this simply doesn't work. It alienates new players and makes a big gap even between players who have similar but even just slightly different skill levels. The skill gap must be kept low by limiting mobility (yes, that sucks for people who really learned how to use the mobility system) and also removing on-kill bonuses. 

I'm ready, excited, and encouraged by TennoCon 2021, let's do it!

[Tachmag]

Cornershooting will absolutely kill the gamemode by giving defenders a massive advantage. 

 

There's also another problem:

 

-If you make the players have high health to encourage moving around the map then you'll get a low skill ceiling PvP, as landing shots with 100% accuracy will actually be quite possible (if the mobility is the one shown in the trailer that is). 

 

-If you make the Time-To-Kill low to compensate for low mobility, a là tactical shooter (Counterstrike, Valorant), you'll get a gamemode where people move slowly and carefully around the map, resulting in the "peek" gameplay that said tactical shooters are known for.  The problem is, that this style of gameplay does not work with a third person camera, resulting in a ridiculous defender's advantage. 

[Kontrollo]

I'm not going to hold my breath to be honest.

 

This is the same studio that couldn't be convinced in over 1.5 years that Telos Boltace is a problem.

For all the cool things they're doing, if one thing is clear, it's that DE in 2021 is not the studio that has a grasp on balanced gameplay. And as a matter of fact, in PvP that just translates to no grasp on fair play.

I found it funny that they'd bring back the UT skins when they're not even able to fix the most basic things in their own PvP. I can only assume the people who were involved in Unreal Tournament have long since moved on.

 

If I want to play a slow(er) shooter and PvP, we have plenty of those out there that are dedicated to it. I really wonder how they're going to compete in that space with the track record of recent years.

Or actually, I guess I don't really want to know.

[Stormdragon]

14 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I understand that PvP with highly mobile players is really damn hard to balance because players who can move fast while aiming are rare, but will have a very significant advantage.

Huh... once upon a time when DE (Joebuck, to be more specific) managed to have a really well made balance, which proved that a tiny bit of commitment is enough to keep PvP in a good state.

That said, you're mixing 2 different things that are "balance" and "skill gap". Balance aims to have all gear on a similar risk/reward spot in an attempt to leave the outcome of matches to the skill gap between players. There is almost no way to balance skill gaps (would require dynamic handicaps on those who perform better during a match until the match feels even, but at that point you're actually punishing someone for being good, which doesn't make any sense), so the most that the devs could do in this regard is adding some sort of skill based matchmaking (Recruit Conditioning doesn't count due to its endless flaws).

But then comes the question: how could DE measure skill? Is something like that worth being added if, in the long term, could get us back to square 1? (Some other games, like Tekken7 or SoulCaliburVI already do this and have found the same issues we have on conclave today)

14 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Of course, every skilled PvP player dreams of a high skill-gap game where their skill is dominant in all aspects

That's a huge assumption you got over there, most of the times i've taken part on competitive activities, either videogames or sports, the main motivation of good players isn't simply dominate everyone, but instead help them grow and become stronger opponents so future matches can be more fair and exciting; at least to me, one sided matches aren't fun in the slightest.

13 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

For all the cool things they're doing, if one thing is clear, it's that DE in 2021 is not the studio that has a grasp on balanced gameplay.

Totally this, which gets proven by the big batch of unnecessary powercreep we got with Sisters of Parvos.

13 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

If I want to play a slow(er) shooter and PvP, we have plenty of those out there that are dedicated to it. I really wonder how they're going to compete in that space with the track record of recent years.

Also this, a pvp game may require low maintenance, but even that seems to be way too much for DE. As long as DE doesn't commit to having a small pvp team that balances gear and fixes bugs quickly, we can be sure that exactly the same issues will keep arising over and over again.

I'm not against the idea, but i can't imagine DE actually doing it either.

[Niuzio]

Now that you are able to control other factions it will be awesome to add PVP mode with a lot of players and after killing a lot of players you are able to control a Warframe or teshin like battlefront 2, also even battle in space.

[Stormdragon]

I'll say it as many times as i can. The same issues with the previous and current conclave will remain on any iteration of PvP if DE doesn't commit to some baseline:

>Server Browser to make finding matches easier

>Make balance values static instead of just slapping a multiplier of PvE values. Conclave balance was quite good a while ago, but PvE changes bleeding to PvP on top of DE's lack of maintenance to the mode made it start going downhill; static values should reduce this problem.

>PvP dedicated team to keep the mode balanced and with the least possible bugs (hopefully for both, the current WF vs WF pvp and an eventual "Battlefront" mode)

>Evergreen and/or rotating rewards to encourage and give something useful to those who remain engaged with the mode.

There  may be some other details, but i hope the idea can be understood.

On another note, i'm not against the idea, i'd just like to keep the current warframe vs warframe mode, hopefully under the wings of the same team that should get dedicated to pvp IF a new mode got to be added.

I think it's also worth pointing that people expecting Battlefront gameplay could go and play Battlefront for it.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

So with the reveal of the New War, we got to watch a mission where the player controlled a Grineer soldier, a Corpus technician, and even Teshin himself. The characters controlled similar to how traditional Warframe is played, even having their own abilities fitting their character (Kahl throws a grenade, Veso summons a Moa, and Teshin can change the damage type of his swords). 

With what we know about Warframe's design, it's likely that this sequence (and maybe a bit more of the quest) is all we'll get out of these features, but I was wondering how the community would feel if the playable Grineer/Corpus characters were developed further into a pvp mode of some sort.

I see some potential in such a mode, as the enemy factions lack the extreme mobility that Warframes inherently possess, which would make PvP feel less chaotic. Limiting these characters to their faction's arsenals could also make balancing this game mode easier, especially if mods aren't allowed, as we'd strip away a lot of the elements of Warframe that make balance hard.

While we could expand the classes as time goes on, for the sake of simplicity we'll say that there are only 2 classes (one for each side): The Grineer Lancer, and the Corpus Crewman. As ultimate abilities may not fit into PvP very well, we'll say there are only 3 abilities per class, and they'll mirror each other (to prevent balancing difficulties). I think we could easily draw on the other enemy types, such as using the Tusk seeker drones to mirror the deployed Moas. I have some ideas for the full kits, but I want to establish the rest of the mode first.

For the weapons, we could have a few options for the players, but they do need to mirror each other for the sake of balance, and they need to be balanced separately from PvE Warframe. The Dera and Karak are obvious choices, The Ignis and the Flux Rifle could be our beam weapons, the Vulkar and Snipetron would be snipers, and so on. The discussion to be had is whether some weapons should be class specific (e.g. only a Grineer Ballista can use the Vulkar), which is something I am unsure about.

There are easy modes to be used as a base. Exterminate could be our standard Team Deathmatch. Interception could be renamed to Control and work the same. We could even have some form of Juggernaut-like mode that allows the teams to fight for control of a powerful weapon, such as a Warframe (with some handicaps) or a Sentient weapon.  As much as I would like to involve Teshin in some way, I can't think of a way that would fit with the lore. If you have any ideas, please share them.

Lastly, I acknowledge that this isn't a unique idea, and it isn't likely to happen, but I mostly want to gauge player feedback now that the New War has shown us an actual in-game starting point for a mode like this. We can all see the state of Conclave, and I'm curious to see if players would want a working PvP mode, or if PvP has no place in a PvE focused looter shooter.

[(PSN)ghost-sniper132]

32 vs 32 players. Domination with 3-4 capture points.

So i'm just assuming that we are going to defeat the sentients at the end of the quest. I could imagine the grineer and corpus using the post war confusion to strike territory previously held by the enemy. Plains (or a new PvP map on Earth) / Orb Vallis (or a new PvP map on Venus) have been ravaged by the sentients so the respective leaders see this as an opportunity to gain ground. 

Grineer get a Tusk Thumper for a tank, Firbolgs for transport, Dargyns as a attack helicopter equivalent, and cutters for jets. Respectively, corpus get some kind of Raknoid for a tank, Dropships for transport, some kind of large Osprey as a attack helicopter equivalent and Vapos Aquila for jets.

Before anyone says it... yes i know this would never happen. But i can dream 😆.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

In theory, yes because all players would be balanced and have equal starts.

In reality, no. Not unless DE get dedicated servers. As long as matchmaking is peer to peer it's not going to be a good experience. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)ghost-sniper132 said:

32 vs 32 players. Domination with 3-4 capture points.

So i'm just assuming that we are going to defeat the sentients at the end of the quest. I could imagine the grineer and corpus using the post war confusion to strike territory previously held by the enemy. Plains (or a new PvP map on Earth) / Orb Vallis (or a new PvP map on Venus) have been ravaged by the sentients so the respective leaders see this as an opportunity to gain ground. 

Grineer get a Tusk Thumper for a tank, Firbolgs for transport, Dargyns as a attack helicopter equivalent, and cutters for jets. Respectively, corpus get some kind of Raknoid for a tank, Dropships for transport, some kind of large Osprey as a attack helicopter equivalent and Vapos Aquila for jets.

Before anyone says it... yes i know this would never happen. But i can dream 😆.

I'd love some sort of Battlefield styled game mode based on the open world maps. I was thinking of something similar to what Chivalry 2 does in certain maps, where, for example, a massive Grineer force is sent to assault the Orb Vallis (or some alternative open region controlled by Corpus). As the Grineer breaks several Corpus defense lines, the final objective becomes a boss battle with a player controlled Sister of Parvos (or perhaps an Ambulas). 

There are many ways to take Corpus vs. Grineer PvP, that you could probably make an entire spin off game. Unfortunately DE is spread thin enough as is, so that won't happen, but we can dream!

[V2lkyr]

Playing as Corpus and Grineer? Sure.

PvP? No.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Just now, (XBOX)Skippy575 said:

In theory, yes because all players would be balanced and have equal starts.

In reality, no. Not unless DE get dedicated servers. As long as matchmaking is peer to peer it's not going to be a good experience. 

This is true. PvP with peer to peer is terrible, and it would be impossible to implement without dedicated servers.

[Kontrollo]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

This is true. PvP with peer to peer is terrible, and it would be impossible to implement without dedicated servers.

Just now, (XBOX)TyeGoo said:

PvP on a Peer to Peer basis is NEVER a good idea.

NEVER.

  

We've had Dedicated Servers for PC since 2016 and generally, they work great:

People have been hosting them for others just for the sake of it and we're grateful about that. Alone not having to worry about host migrations is great. Maybe with Cross-Play, consoles will finally be able to join games on them, too.

 

Besides, it's somewhere in there that they considered enabling them for Trials, too. If I were you guys, you'd better bring it up again whenever they talk about the reintroduction of that (3rd Orb Mother). Make it clear that yes, that's something people want.

[EmberStar]

"Is PVP... a good idea?"  In some games?  Yes, I suppose for people who enjoy it.  If the game is built and balanced around it.  Fortnite and the thing with cars playing soccer seem to be doing well.  Is PVP in THIS game a good idea?  No, it's a complete waste of time and resources they should be spending on either fixing bugs or making new content that more than a single-digit percentage of the playerbase will ever see.

[Kontrollo]

4 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

"Is PVP... a good idea?"  In some games?  Yes, I suppose for people who enjoy it.  If the game is built and balanced around it.  Fortnite and the thing with cars playing soccer seem to be doing well.  Is PVP in THIS game a good idea?  No, it's a complete waste of time and resources they should be spending on either fixing bugs or making new content that more than a single-digit percentage of the playerbase will ever see.

Of course a hardline "PvE-only" player would say that.

Somehow you guys never fail to insert yourself into these discussions with the ever-same tired old refrain.

 

They haven't been fixing all the bugs they introduced in Conclave these past years through PvE updates and people still play it. For several (and some of them are very obvious) reasons it's a small following.

But one thing doesn't change: PvE engagement on the other hand drops off a cliff after a few weeks without new updates.

 

P.S. I'm not even in favour of the Grineer vs. Corpus thing. But that had to be said.

[ssh83]

It's a great spin-off idea.

But 99% of the people who fund this game are not going to play PvP.  

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

20 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Is PVP in THIS game a good idea?  No, it's a complete waste of time and resources they should be spending on either fixing bugs or making new content that more than a single-digit percentage of the playerbase will ever see.

I acknowledge that there are developer reasons why it would be a bad idea, especially since DE is spread thin just updating the PvE experience. I'm more so wondering if there are any problems with the idea itself, such as an incompatibility with Warframe's existing design, which is more where your second critique goes.

As for people not playing it, I think it's valid to say that players who have put time into a PvE focused game wouldn't be interested in a PvP experience. At the same time I think having a polished PvP experience would bring in some new players (and retain some new players that aren't interested in core Warframe), especially since the type of gameplay that would be included is less common than the typical FPS experience. A lot of veteran players feel like they don't have a lot of content to repetitively enjoy, and while Conclave exists as a repetitive PvP experience, the mode has its own problems that take away motivation to interact with it (there's a discussion to be had as to why we don't just fix Conclave). I think a PvP mode that's well done would provide that repetitive content that veterans would use to avoid taking massive breaks from the game.

16 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

It's a great spin-off idea.

But 99% of the people who fund this game are not going to play PvP.  

Spin off game is the same conclusion I'm coming to. Unfortunately DE probably doesn't have the resources to make a whole new game while also supporting Warframe.

As for funding, I'd expect Platinum to be usable for cosmetic options if this was ever implemented. That'd create an incentive among players only interested in the PvP to fund the game, but that ties back to the spin off idea, as you'd need enough depth to convince someone to invest their money, and Warframe is already massive without adding a fleshed out PvP game to it.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

even though I'm against Conclave, I would at least be willing to try a gamemode like this. the problem however is that Peer-to-peer is not really a good choice for PvP, so unless we can ever get dedicated servers (highly unlikely), a mode like this might never happen. but from what I've seen, there's enough people clamoring for it to warrant DE at least considering it. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

even though I'm against Conclave, I would at least be willing to try a gamemode like this. the problem however is that Peer-to-peer is not really a good choice for PvP, so unless we can ever get dedicated servers (highly unlikely), a mode like this might never happen. but from what I've seen, there's enough people clamoring for it to warrant DE at least considering it. 

 

2 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

We've had Dedicated Servers for PC since 2016 and generally, they work great:

People have been hosting them for others just for the sake of it and we're grateful about that. Alone not having to worry about host migrations is great. Maybe with Cross-Play, consoles will finally be able to join games on them, too.

 

Besides, it's somewhere in there that they considered enabling them for Trials, too. If I were you guys, you'd better bring it up again whenever they talk about the reintroduction of that (3rd Orb Mother). Make it clear that yes, that's something people want.

 

[Disjointed_Sky]

Yes, sounds cool. Add a mech mode to it as well.

[Loza03]

Grineer v Corpus is probably the only form of PvP I can see succeeding. Not that it's necessarily likely, but the only one that I think could.

[Marvelous_A]

People will start finding out problems after it's actually a thing. To start with, armor vs shield, weapon types, character hitbox

[EmberStar]

6 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

People will start finding out problems after it's actually a thing. To start with, armor vs shield, weapon types, character hitbox

"Corpus are too easy to headshot, and Grineer Lancers have that big backpack thing that makes it actually impossible to headshot them from behind!  Unfair!  I demand nerf!"