Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[FrostDragoon]

52 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Not trying to completely shut this down, but what exactly is the hook here? What is suppose to draw people in and want to do this specific PVP?

This question is more important than most of the people in this thread realize. Here's the situation:

1. Players saw the New War playable characters and thought, "Man, I hope there's a lot more of that!" This largely stems from the story side of things, players wanting to (very lightly) roleplay the other perspectives of the various factions. It also represents a break in the normal gameplay that's still well within what we want and expect from Warframe.

2. PvP players saw this as a potential solution to many of the complaints against Conclave specifically, but drastically overestimate and overstate the community's general interest in PvP in the first place.

3. Threads like this emerge because the PvP players (perhaps unwittingly) conflate the interest in the former to interest in the latter, or wish to use it as a way to hijack that interest to promote PvP. They refuse to admit that the real reason they get so much pushback isn't because of the core concept itself, but because PvP has no real place or purpose in this game. DE has shown through both Conclave and Lunaro that they fundamentally don't understand what makes PvP appealing in the first place and that they are unable to deliver on the kind of experience players would expect. Some players just don't like PvP at all (in any game, not just Warframe), so the combination of them and those who see these failures as detrimental due to the opportunity cost don't want to see those mistakes repeated again.

---

Given all this, the details of the problems and "solutions" for how to bring PvP back or introduce new forms of it really are quite moot from the outset unless they have a very strong case for the answer to the quoted question. So far, there isn't one. I don't expect there will be either.

[FrostDragoon]

11 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Your comments are literally just "No PvP in warframe, PvP players go find another game" while you also claim that we are the one who just dismiss your comments. That's a huge wall  of self defensive projection you got there.

He doesn't need to defend himself. He's absolutely right. History and evidence are on his side. The onus is you (generally, the pro-PvP community) to make a good case. We're still waiting...

 

I'll even extend a small olive branch on the topic and offer a hint at what a good case might look like. Start by answering this question:

How do you make PvP appealing to non-PvP players in this game such that they want to participate despite all the obvious and glaring problems that come with it?

[----Legacy----]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

He doesn't need to defend himself. He's absolutely right. History and evidence are on his side. The onus is you (generally, the pro-PvP community) to make a good case. We're still waiting...

I'm not gonna make a point for adding a pvp mode that could be achieved by a simple Counter Strike reskin mod.

If i wanted a slow tactical shooter -like the gameplay being discussed- i wouldn't be playing warframe to begin with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TeaHands]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

So the main point of a PvP mode like this would be that it's easier to polish than Conclave is. If we made a PvP mode that incorporated the gameplay of Warframe, we'd have Conclave, and we see that Conclave isn't popular. This mode doesn't have the elements of Conclave that make the gameplay feel frustrating, so it can be used to see if PvP is a good alternative, and if it is, maybe Conclave could be seen as something worth redesigning. 

If the main point of making this mode is to make it easier on the devs, that already feels like a step in the wrong direction on why someone would want to play said mode.

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

As for the hook, I think PvP is itself a good hook, as it's engaging content that varies from game to game. Having something that you can quickly hop into when you're bored is great, and where Conclave could be that, its design gives an advantage to players that have already engaged with the PvE content, which makes it less fair for the people who aren't on that level yet.

I'm sorry but it is not, PvP is not a selling point anymore, DE personally knows this. The Amazing Eternals, Conclave, Lunaro, these are big, blatant red flags that PvP alone does not make people want to actively play something anymore.

If they make this from the ground up, and anytime we have put in this game has zero effect on the mode. That means DE has a lot of work ahead of them to draw people in. They would have to make ANOTHER separate set of weapons, characters, maps, and possible mods that work completely different from its own PvP and PvE systems. I don't know if they would find that worth it.

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Now, DE could lock PvE cosmetics behind PvP to create a small incentive, like they have with Conclave, but I don't think anyone would actually be in favor of that besides the same kind of snobby PvP elitists that got Universal Medallions changed to not work in Conclave.

Yeah, that would not work out in the slightest. WF players absolutely hate having rewards locked behind a new mode. Making it locked behind a PvP mode would have an even worse reaction.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

2. PvP players saw this as a potential solution to many of the complaints against Conclave specifically, but drastically overestimate and overstate the community's general interest in PvP in the first place.

3. Threads like this emerge because the PvP players (perhaps unwittingly) conflate the interest in the former to interest in the latter, or wish to use it as a way to hijack that interest to promote PvP. They refuse to admit that the real reason they get so much pushback isn't because of the core concept itself, but because PvP has no real place or purpose in this game. DE has shown through both Conclave and Lunaro that they fundamentally don't understand what makes PvP appealing in the first place and that they are unable to deliver on the kind of experience players would expect. Some players just don't like PvP at all (in any game, not just Warframe), so the combination of them and those who see these failures as detrimental due to the opportunity cost don't want to see those mistakes repeated again.

I'm not a PvP player though. I indulge in a little PvP through other games, but generally I enjoy single player rpgs and mmos. I've played Warframe for a long time, and I've only done a small amount of Conclave games, so I wouldn't consider myself a master of Conclave at all. I made this thread because I saw the gameplay of the New War, and thought the best way to expand upon it would be through PvP, which would also bring something casual to do for the casual playerbase, and would also serve as a test of player interest in PvP, which would provide incentive to fix the most neglected content in the game: Conclave.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

4 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

If the main point of making this mode is to make it easier on the devs, that already feels like a step in the wrong direction on why someone would want to play said mode.

Well no, the point isn't making it easier on the devs. The point is expansion of an existing system to create content that brings in new players, creates repetitive and enjoyable content for existing players, while also serving as an opportunity to collect data to inform the decision to fix a poorly designed game mode.

7 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I'm sorry but it is not, PvP is not a selling point anymore, DE personally knows this. The Amazing Eternals, Conclave, Lunaro, these are big, blatant red flags that PvP alone does not make people want to actively play something anymore.

I can't speak about The Amazing Eternals, but I can say Conclave and Lunaro aren't well designed, which is obviously going to make it hard for people to want to engage with these modes.

8 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

If they make this from the ground up, and anytime we have put in this game has zero effect on the mode. That means DE has a lot of work ahead of them to draw people in. They would have to make ANOTHER separate set of weapons, characters, maps, and possible mods that work completely different from its own PvP and PvE systems. I don't know if they would find that worth it.

As discussed earlier, they don't need make this from the ground up. The systems and assets already exist in game. They can reuse models from Grineer and Corpus soldiers, the weapons don't need to be expansive, only enough for variety, while also being already existent in game (my examples in the OP were all existing weapons), the maps can be combinations of existing tiles or Conclave maps we already have. Modding probably wouldn't exist in this game mode, as it contributes to a feeling of unfairness. The work is there, but it's not nearly as much as building an entire game from the ground up.

[PublikDomain]

37 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

How do you make PvP appealing to non-PvP players in this game such that they want to participate despite all the obvious and glaring problems that come with it?

Why would you? If someone is staunchly anti-PvP, then there's no reason for PvP content to need to cater to them. They can keep playing the stuff they're already playing, it's not made for them and it doesn't need to be.

If you want to appeal to players who are open to PvP but don't currently participate, then you have to fix "all the obvious and glaring problems". There are few players, so add bots. You can get matched with a higher skilled player, so add ranked/unranked modes with SBMM. There's a mismatch with the pacing and mobility, so lower the TTK and respawn timer. The game modes are basic, so add modes like the Index or Interception or Sabotage. Most of this is numbers tweaks or mechanics that have already been developed elsewhere.

How do you make PvP appealing to non-PvP players? By working on the PvP. But you dare suggest that PvP get even the most basic of support so that it can appeal to non-PvP players and anti-PvP players complain that we're trying to "hijack" "their" content, even though it isn't about them, doesn't involve them, and wouldn't affect them. 🙄

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I can't speak about The Amazing Eternals

It was a deck-building game where the deck was 12 cards, didn't shuffle, and had no meta cards (draw 2, discard your hand, shuffle the deck, etc). While it had interesting characters and was fun to play, when DE didn't iterate on the ideas it ended up as just another mediocre arena shooter with a poor deck-building element stuck on top. If the deck-building part was worked on instead of being an afterthought then it could have supported the arena shooter part and made it an interesting game. Keystone/AE was a good idea and it failed because it didn't get the attention it needed, just like Archwing or Conclave or any number of systems in Warframe. And like with Warframe's many rotting mechanics, the solution isn't to throw in the towel or run away from it claiming it can't be done, the solution is to work on it a little more and give it some actual thought and attention.

[IggySnow]

If DE was going to add an actual PvP to the game, they would need to hire a bunch of people that solely work on the PvP, since other studios with hundreds of employees already struggle to update their pvp games regularly, so if DE started making a PvP mode without a ton of new hires the rest of the game would start to atrophy.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Why would you? If someone is staunchly anti-PvP, then there's no reason for PvP content to need to cater to them. They can keep playing the stuff they're already playing, it's not made for them and it doesn't need to be.

By precisely the same logic, it's easy to argue that PvP doesn't belong in Warframe at all--it's not made for PvP players.

[PublikDomain]

3 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

By precisely the same logic, it's easy to argue that PvP doesn't belong in Warframe at all--it's not made for PvP players.

Warframe has had PvP since 2013. It's always had PvP and competitive content, from competitive events to leaderboards to Dojo dueling to Solar Rail Conflicts to Conclave to Frame Fighter. Solar Rail Conflicts were even introduced many years ago as Warframe's endgame.

[Sammonoske]

Not all games need PvP.

[EmberStar]

4 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Solar Rail Conflicts were even introduced many years ago as Warframe's endgame.

And then ripped right back out again when it turned out the design was so badly flawed it was easier to take it out back and put a bullet in it than try to fix the *everything* that had gone wrong with it.

*Edit*  There's clearly at least a couple of important people at DE who like PVP, and want it in the game despite every bit of evidence that it doesn't work.  The fact that they keep *trying* is evidence of that.  (And things like the comment in the Tactical Potato interview, that if they didn't force people to play Stalker Mode then nearly anyone who realized there was a choice would choose NOT to play it.)  That doesn't mean there's a market for it, or that the playerbase even metrics show that people even *want* it.  It just shows that the dev team has a couple of the same kind of PVP fan that keeps showing up in these threads.

[TeaHands]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Well no, the point isn't making it easier on the devs. The point is expansion of an existing system to create content that brings in new players, creates repetitive and enjoyable content for existing players, while also serving as an opportunity to collect data to inform the decision to fix a poorly designed game mode.

Underlined section is the point I am trying to make, there is nothing here that would make people go. "Oh wow, that mode looks great! I want to do that!" Its just gutted Conclave gameplay with different models. (if we are using the gameplay we saw from the demo as the pace you want for this game mode.) And at that point, what useful data is their for Conclave to use if the core mechanics work differently?

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I can't speak about The Amazing Eternals, but I can say Conclave and Lunaro aren't well designed, which is obviously going to make it hard for people to want to engage with these modes.

So what makes this mode any different from Conclave or Lunaro? They both started (as far as I know) as essential clean PvP slates for DE to work with and it didn't pan out. What makes this new suggested mode any different?

 

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

As discussed earlier, they don't need make this from the ground up. The systems and assets already exist in game. They can reuse models from Grineer and Corpus soldiers, the weapons don't need to be expansive, only enough for variety, while also being already existent in game (my examples in the OP were all existing weapons), the maps can be combinations of existing tiles or Conclave maps we already have. Modding probably wouldn't exist in this game mode, as it contributes to a feeling of unfairness. The work is there, but it's not nearly as much as building an entire game from the ground up.

If you are going to use existing weapons for this mode, which do they use? The Conclave version or the Main Game version? Do they build the characters around the existing guns stats or do they need to make new stats for weapons so they work properly with the existing health, armor, and shields systems used in the demo?

Again, if the weapons aren't expansive and just the ones we've used before but slightly tuned for this version of PvP, the maps are from an already existing system, and no modding, what will draw people in?? It sounds like it will be using existing assets we've already seen but with slowed down gameplay. I don't know how that can draw people in.

[PublikDomain]

42 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

And then ripped right back out again when it turned out the design was so badly flawed it was easier to take it out back and put a bullet in it than try to fix the *everything* that had gone wrong with it.

And nowadays all of the design flaws can be easily addressed.

• The tax system was dumb and took rewards from players. So don't have it take rewards from players.
• The balance was terrible. But now we have Conclave loadouts.
• There wasn't much room so everyone was competing for the same few nodes. So let every node in the game be contested. Make the Solar Rail Conflict Map a toggle on the side of the screen, just like we already can for Steel Path. Maybe add meta rules about where large clans can/can't invade.

This isn't hard to solve. None of the problems with the game's PvP are hard to solve.

And the immediate follow-up question is "so why haven't these things been fixed if it's so easy" and the answer is the same for a lot of Warframe's mechanics: DE's a bit scatterbrained - to put it nicely - and likes to make a new thing only to immediately abandon it for the next. They're too busy and don't like revisiting things unless they're forced to. This is the case for countless systems, from Synthesis to Archwing to Raids to now Nightwave. On top of that, you have the anti-PvP crowd crapping their pants every time the topic is brought up, which certainly doesn't help.

[Tehcaro]

With so many of us having it, its clearly a great idea.

PvP with PvE Warframes and Weapons is impossible to balance. So everything in conclave has its own PvP stats to attempt keep it balanced which means many weapons have strange stats and ammo capacities but there is always outliers and things that slip though (Venari on release).

A PvP implementation of Corpus vs Grineer units (possibly with different stats) with each side having a limited set of balanced weapons then things would be much simpler to balance and open up a whole host of game modes based around the conflict between the factions, on the ground, battling in space using crew ships or simply the classic's DM, TDM and CTF.

Conclave PvP would not even need to be removed, there is a small but dedicated fan base for it.

However an additional more accessible PvP experience with a larger regular player base may make the game more fun to play and watch during the time between major updates.

[FrostDragoon]

51 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Warframe has had PvP since 2013. It's always had PvP and competitive content, from competitive events to leaderboards to Dojo dueling to Solar Rail Conflicts to Conclave to Frame Fighter. Solar Rail Conflicts were even introduced many years ago as Warframe's endgame.

And none of it took.

[----Legacy----]

20 minutes ago, Tehcaro said:

With so many of us having it, its clearly a great idea.

On one hand, an idea being popular isn't necessarily good. Just look at how out of hand has powercreep gone in this game for being a popular thing. With that in mind, i think it's worth pointing that "Ad Populum" is an argumentative fallacy that a huge bunch of these forums tend to use over and over again instead of actually discussing the topics at hand.

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

And none of it took.

Conclave took for a while after the rework, community started to drop after issues started to become more apparent once DE stopped fixing its bugs, which happens to be around the same date where a loud group of PvE players went all out with their rage against PvP events instead of just letting other players have their fun in peace.

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Conclave took for a while after the rework, community started to drop after issues started to become more apparent once DE stopped fixing its bugs, which happens to be around the same date where a loud group of PvE players went all out against PvP events instead of letting other players have their fun in peace.

This would be valid if DE actually addressed and fixed existing systems that need the attention. Things like Archwing, Railjack, K-Drive (for both players who enjoy that), etc. If the overall approach from DE was that they cared about all these systems and actively kept them in good working order and up to date, sure... *then* you might have an argument for PvP because it conceivably wouldn't come at the cost of PvE needing so much attention still.

Edit:

Btw, you can't blame it on the anti-PvP crowd that the pro-PvP side was losing player interest and couldn't make a good case for continued dev time/attention.  Players will look for the easiest, cheesiest, laziest ways to win in PvP and that ruins the fun for everyone else. PvPers only have themselves and each other to blame.

[PublikDomain]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

And none of it took.

And not for lack of interest. Warframe's PvP, like many of the game's other systems, wasn't done very well. If it were given more than the almost zero attention it gets then it would do better. But whenever someone suggests that it get more than zero attention, staunch anti-PvP players - who again this isn't about, doesn't involve, and wouldn't affect - crawl out of the woodwork with their "not in my game"s and "but I don't like it"s and "it doesn't belong"s and "go play something else"s. Like, why do you think they're not fixing it? Because uninvolved players keep having S#&$fits over the idea of DE spending even one more nanosecond on content that isn't just for them.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But whenever someone suggests that it get more than zero attention, staunch anti-PvP players - who again this isn't about, doesn't involve, and wouldn't affect

You're wrong here. It's all about opportunity cost. If they are working on PvP, they aren't fixing PvE. Work on the systems that affect the most players first, and work your way down. This is why we oppose PvP. I like PvP in other games, largely because they do it better, so it's not that we don't like the idea of PvP at all. It's that there's too much else that needs attention first and that (so far) it serves absolutely no point in this game (and never has).

[EmberStar]

3 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 Because uninvolved players keep having S#&$fits over the idea of DE spending even one more nanosecond on content that isn't just for them.

And this happens because DE has demonstrated, repeatedly, that they aren't good at doing more than one thing at a time.  Any effort they spend on PVP is time that they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention.  Hell, they just outright said in their own Tennocon that they're not currently planning any more Warframe revisions at this time, because "any time we spend looking at old Warframes is time that we're not spending making exciting new ones."

[PublikDomain]

59 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

And this happens because DE has demonstrated, repeatedly, that they aren't good at doing more than one thing at a time.  Any effort they spend on PVP is time that they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention.  Hell, they just outright said in their own Tennocon that they're not currently planning any more Warframe revisions at this time, because "any time we spend looking at old Warframes is time that we're not spending making exciting new ones."

But this has nothing to do with PvP in particular, and can be applied to literally everything DE decides to make. Any effort they spend on cinematic story quests is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Prime Access trailers is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Liches or Sisters is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Railjack is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on fixing old frames is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. And so on and so forth. And if you take Pablo's words at face value, he's saying that DE doesn't want to fix all the *everything else* that needs attention.

Is this a good reason to not fix PvP or any of the other systems they abandon? Is this a good reason to leave frames without the reworks they need? Is this a good reason to stop trying on Railjack and just make more lazy Taxijack modes? Is this a good reason to leave Yareli where she is now and not improve her kit? Nope. This is a reason for them to do the opposite and actually get to work fixing all the *everything else* - which includes PvP. DE abandoning content isn't a good thing, and it's not a good excuse for content to stay abandoned.

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's all about opportunity cost.

And what's the opportunity cost of fixing up PvP? Adding the same bots we already have in the Index. Changing a few numbers here and there. Maybe balancing a weapon every once in a while. Maybe they bring over a new one, they've got plenty to pick from. Maybe a Grineer vs Corpus mode using the same stuff they've already built and models they've already made, which people have actually shown a lot of interest in.

Compared to fixing up a system like Railjack, PvP is cheap! It's economical. It's already mostly done! And it could provide something a lot of other systems that need reworks can't: replayable, long-term content. As long as you're not being close-minded about it, having a solid competitive mode to kick around in when you've done everything else sounds like it'd be a heck of a lot better for everyone involved than a crusty, tired, "go play something else".

[FrostDragoon]

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But this has nothing to do with PvP in particular, and can be applied to literally everything DE decides to make. Any effort they spend on cinematic story quests is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Prime Access trailers is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Liches or Sisters is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on Railjack is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. Any effort they spend on fixing old frames is time they're not fixing all the *everything else* that needs attention. And so on and so forth. And if you take Pablo's words at face value, he's saying that DE doesn't want to fix all the *everything else* that needs attention.

This difference is that most of these are things the vast majority of players actually want attention devoted to--not a miniscule minority. This isn't important just as a matter of popularity, but of monetization. They have to consider the cost/benefit/reach of these kinds of decisions. PvP isn't worth it.

[FrostDragoon]

28 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Compared to fixing up a system like Railjack, PvP is cheap! It's economical.

This is factually not the case.

[PublikDomain]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is factually not the case.

Prove it. I've given you some ways PvP could be improved, like bots or numbers tweaks. I can point to places in the game where these things *already exist*. So why are these things, which have already been done, supposedly so hard to do? Especially compared to a much more complicated system like Railjack?

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

This difference is that most of these are things the vast majority of players actually want attention devoted to--not a miniscule minority. This isn't important just as a matter of popularity, but of monetization. They have to consider the cost/benefit/reach of these kinds of decisions. PvP isn't worth it.

You don't speak for the "vast majority of players" any more than I do, and have zero evidence of any kind that people open to PvP or competition of some sort are a "minuscule minority". But we can look to all the people talking about Grineer vs Corpus PvP again and see that clearly, plainly, there is an interest in this kind mode. Even people that aren't interested in Conclave are saying "I might give that a try". And when the cost you're so worried about *has already been paid*, and when the benefit could be huge, there's absolutely no reason for DE not to take advantage of the golden egg that's plopped into their lap. PvP is 100% worth fixing up when the hardest work *has already been done*.