I have been thinking of Ammo

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

41 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

We can also add wear and tear on melee weapons.  I'd love for them to break in the middle of a mission.  Maybe firearm maintenance too.  Better take care of your gun or it'll jam or misfire.  We can balance our way into being like every other game.

No.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The point is opportunity cost. All of what you have mentioned are actual balance and continuity mechanics which balance their utility.

Ammo mutation takes an exilus slot , there are very few and niche worthwhile mods that can fit here instead. The only cost is the exilus mod slot unlock itself (and the one time procurement of the mod) and the opportunity cost is negligible (less recoil ? Inability to use cautios shot ?)

Ammo pads require crafting , each time which needs resources and pre planning repeatedly which is a cost of convenience.

Ammo pickups of specific type are not guaranteed , high damage explosives can and will run out and you will be unable to use your weapon for a brief amount of time which is cost of temporary inertness.

Carrier requires you to ...  use carrier instead of a number of other companions resulting in reduced utility available from other companions.

Pax charge works on only specific weapons , they are not universal and so you are losing the opportunity of using other weapons.

Ammo pads can be made 100 at a time and its literally 1 min and can be made on the app while you're at work. 

And ammo pickups are close to guaranteed which is good enough. If you need more ammo pickups you need to work on your strategy.

[Marvelous_A]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Ammo pads can be made 100 at a time and its literally 1 min and can be made on the app while you're at work. 

And ammo pickups are close to guaranteed which is good enough. If you need more ammo pickups you need to work on your strategy.

Yes you need a change in strategy...use melee because guns are generally just weak

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Yes you need a change in strategy...use melee because guns are generally just weak

The steel path corrupted I was killing last night with a Trumna and Akvasto says otherwise.

[DrivaMain]

Has anyone used guns like the Phantasma without ammo mutation? I guarantee that you will run out of ammo very quickly especially in Solo.

Ammo pickup amount on certain guns are ridiculously low, phantasma is a good example of that. Ammo drops are also pure RNG, you may either get too much rifle ammo drops and zero shotgun ammo drops or vice versa.

They can easily fix this by allowing enemies to drop all ammo types on kill.

Remember, Melee exist that doesn't require ammo and requires much less effort to use them.

[Heiven]

You know when i started reading the topic i had no clue what exactly you wanted to change about the ammo so just moved to your main ideas because i was intrigued. Now with the clarification im just confused. Remember the part where i mentioned "you have to be fully consistent", well clearly you haven't put any thought in this and just moved on with your Ideas.

First you start with the talk about ammo and how in other games there's a good damage vs availability to it. Then you scratched that and moved to: disparity between different ammo types; how we need relation between the ammo pull and ammo pick up And a need of a "rework". But all of that boils to lets tweak with unnecessary complicated ideas how much ammo we can pick up and have!?

So we move from the current ammo pulls with low values for the ammo drops to more or less the same ammo pulls but based on your sup category's for weapon types with ammo drops equal of one tenth of the ammo pull!? Ok so what's the point of this change? I mean you your self said that you "never really felt a need for ammo mutation" so clearly its not about the need to have more ammo. So why we need to get a better value of the ammo drops?

You really put some effort on you idea of category's around specific weapon values but you your self trivialize it when the most significant change that comes from it is to have higher value from the ammo drops. Also whats with the word "average" on the end of you category's? Do we need a plus minus X% value of how much ammo we can have at each game!?

18 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Launcher ammo: for things that go big boom - this is for weapons that do large AOE damage (above 300 on average and area of effect being above 5 meters with fire rate rough in the 1.5 range) specifically as its primary damage -  ammo drop would be 5 and max ammo would be 30. the point here is you are doing more than heavy damage , but you are doing it in an area , coing actually more than the stated damage depending on the number of enemies you hit.

Speaking of trivialize, all of this effort boils down to launcher ammo being relatively rare. So launchers would simply benefit from slightly better value from the ammo drops but have significantly worst changes of ammo drops!? Well then the ammo mutation mods would be a must have, unlike now.

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, Heiven said:

You know when i started reading the topic i had no clue what exactly you wanted to change about the ammo so just moved to your main ideas because i was intrigued. Now with the clarification im just confused. Remember the part where i mentioned "you have to be fully consistent", well clearly you haven't put any thought in this and just moved on with your Ideas.

I can't really force my ideas upon you mate , and I am sorry if you can't understand it.

So let me try to squeeze it down to the basics , but if you still can't understand i can't really do much. And this is general discussion not feedback , so I am expecting some back and forth dicussions accordingly.

1) Ammo can be used as a balance mechanic as it is successfully done in other games , unfortunately ammo mutation makes that point moot in warframe and until it exists there is little hope for balance through ammo. 

2) Even with that glaring issue , ammo as a whole needs streamlining to stop the heavy dependency on mutation mods for light weapons before any actual changes to the weapon stats or mods if they are to be utilised. Some of the issues are as follows.

a) Primaries have 3 ammo types and 5 categories ,secondaries have only 1 ammo type despite still having 5 categories.

b) ammo pickups are fixed and are not a function of weapon magazine or ammo capacity

c) there is no relation between ammo type and damage output.

Due to this, having weapons that are expected to churn out a lot of bullets with lower per bullet damage are less useful than ones that are able to churn out more damage (preferably in an area) with fewer bullets. So I propose that the ammo drop chance and pickup have a correspondence to their damage potential.

And while ammo mutation would still make it a little skewed I proposed a check so it isn't as low effort as it is now.

35 minutes ago, Heiven said:

First you start with the talk about ammo and how in other games there's a good damage vs availability to it. Then you scratched that and moved to: disparity between different ammo types; how we need relation between the ammo pull and ammo pick up And a need of a "rework". But all of that boils to lets tweak with unnecessary complicated ideas how much ammo we can pick up and have!?

So we move from the current ammo pulls with low values for the ammo drops to more or less the same ammo pulls but based on your sup category's for weapon types with ammo drops equal of one tenth of the ammo pull!? Ok so what's the point of this change? I mean you your self said that you "never really felt a need for ammo mutation" so clearly its not about the need to have more ammo. So why we need to get a better value of the ammo drops?

I am not sure what you mean by "pull" . And the purpose is what you are complaining about , consistency of ammo use to damage output.

Also , do you have a habit of quoting things out of context , not a good habit? If you read again properly, the part of not needing ammo mutation was when we were talking about buffs that add fire rate. So if I had a certain build without ammo mutation  , and got buffed such that I chewed ammo more rapidly I would pace myself by "trigger discipline" as I would still be doing the same damage per bullet and so still need the same ammo. Hope that is clear.

The weapons I use are usually ammo efficient , but if I do try to use weapons with much higher fire rate, I will immediately notice the quick drop in ammo reserves for the amount of damage done. I want such weapons to not run out of ammo that quickly.

44 minutes ago, Heiven said:

You really put some effort on you idea of category's around specific weapon values but you your self trivialize it when the most significant change that comes from it is to have higher value from the ammo drops. Also whats with the word "average" on the end of you category's? Do we need a plus minus X% value of how much ammo we can have at each game!?

I am starting to think you didn't really get the concept or the maths behind what I propose that well.

There are currently more than 300 ranged weapons in the game. They can do per shot damage ranging from 10 to 1000.

Weapons that do low per shot damage would be light weapons , ones that do much higher per shot damage would be heavy weapons. And they would take the equivalent ammo.

If I showcased every weapon it would be a very large list and I doubt everyone would be willing to read it all so I have made it on average damage with clearly defined limits. And since we have critical hits I have normalised the damage as well.

I do not make half assed discussions without putting some actual thought into it.

1 hour ago, Heiven said:

Speaking of trivialize, all of this effort boils down to launcher ammo being relatively rare. So launchers would simply benefit from slightly better value from the ammo drops but have significantly worst changes of ammo drops!? Well then the ammo mutation mods would be a must have, unlike now.

I disagree . As I haven't really said what would be the drop chance of respective ammo types.

[SneakyErvin]

The system as it is works well, why reinvent the wheel?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

 

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Has anyone used guns like the Phantasma without ammo mutation? I guarantee that you will run out of ammo very quickly especially in Solo.

Ammo pickup amount on certain guns are ridiculously low, phantasma is a good example of that. Ammo drops are also pure RNG, you may either get too much rifle ammo drops and zero shotgun ammo drops or vice versa.

They can easily fix this by allowing enemies to drop all ammo types on kill.

Remember, Melee exist that doesn't require ammo and requires much less effort to use them.

Then....put ammo mutation on the phantasma instead of trying to launch an update that takes time and resources?

Do you need forma or something?

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The point is opportunity cost. All of what you have mentioned are actual balance and continuity mechanics which balance their utility.

I appreciate a cogent reply but it wasn't an answer to my question.

You see, the point actually isn't opportunity cost... The point being your claim that the mod disrupts balance.

You didn't provide that requested specific instance because you simply couldn't.
That's not a surprise — I didn't expect you to be able to and don't believe such an instance exists. The hope instead was for you to actually give it thought and see where your logic falls off.

Instead, you talk about Opportunity Cost...

Given the number of redundancies associated with the mechanic itself (ammo replacement) there really isn't an Opportunity Cost related to the mechanic itself to begin with.

Utility mods don't have much of an opportunity cost to begin with given that they aren't that they are fairly subjective to the player and a redundant mechanic—rather they are no more impactful to DPS than using any of the number of items I made mention of. 

So, unless you are saying that all of those items need to be removed you have no valid balance claim. Likewise, even if you did say that all those other options needed to be removed to assert "balance" the next question would regard why you haven't opted to simply un-install those items.

 

The only real opportunity cost in this case would be the choice to use the weapon exilus mod tool on one weapon as opposed to another.

The use of any of those items asserts a player decision to forego something else in the slot— Or forego having the slot opened altogether... That is Opportunity Cost.

Your answer, such as it is, highlights my point...

No offense, I am now left with wondering if you are just trolling for clicks or somesuch.

 

[Corvid]

33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The system as it is works well

The problem is that it doesn't. When one pistol takes 3 ammo drops to refill from empty, and another takes 5-10 times that amount, yet the former deals damage far more effectively, that's a sign that things really aren't working properly.

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The problem is that it doesn't. When one pistol takes 3 ammo drops to refill from empty, and another takes 5-10 times that amount, yet the former deals damage far more effectively, that's a sign that things really aren't working properly.

That has less to do with ammo replacement methods than it does with inequities between the weapons themselves.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The problem is that it doesn't. When one pistol takes 3 ammo drops to refill from empty, and another takes 5-10 times that amount, yet the former deals damage far more effectively, that's a sign that things really aren't working properly.

But we also have an abundance of ammo drops. I havent ran out of ammo in the last few years. The last time I did was when I leveled the regular Kohm.

[Corvid]

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That has less to do with ammo replacement methods than it does with inequities between the weapons themselves.

One of said inequities is the rate of ammo replacement. In pretty much any game where ammo pickups are a thing, the amount you get per weapon is varied based on its expected consumption.

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But we also have an abundance of ammo drops. I havent ran out of ammo in the last few years. The last time I did was when I leveled the regular Kohm.

I'm guessing either ammo mutation or Carrier is a staple of your builds?

There are many weapons in this game which don't have the damage output necessary to get enough drops to sustain themselves without either switching to melee or using one of the above methods.

[0_The_F00l]

34 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The problem is that it doesn't. When one pistol takes 3 ammo drops to refill from empty, and another takes 5-10 times that amount, yet the former deals damage far more effectively, that's a sign that things really aren't working properly.

This is the essence of what I am saying honestly.

34 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I appreciate a cogent reply but it wasn't an answer to my question.

You see, the point actually isn't opportunity cost... The point being your claim that the mod disrupts balance.

You didn't provide that requested specific instance because you simply couldn't.
That's not a surprise — I didn't expect you to be able to and don't believe such an instance exists. The hope instead was for you to actually give it thought and see where your logic falls off.

Instead, you talk about Opportunity Cost...

Given the number of redundancies associated with the mechanic itself (ammo replacement) there really isn't an Opportunity Cost related to the mechanic itself to begin with.

Utility mods don't have much of an opportunity cost to begin with given that they aren't that they are fairly subjective to the player and a redundant mechanic—rather they are no more impactful to DPS than using any of the number of items I made mention of. 

So, unless you are saying that all of those items need to be removed you have no valid balance claim. Likewise, even if you did say that all those other options needed to be removed to assert "balance" the next question would regard why you haven't opted to simply un-install those items.

 

The only real opportunity cost in this case would be the choice to use the weapon exilus mod tool on one weapon as opposed to another.

The use of any of those items asserts a player decision to forego something else in the slot— Or forego having the slot opened altogether... That is Opportunity Cost.

Your answer, such as it is, highlights my point...

No offense, I am now left with wondering if you are just trolling for clicks or somesuch.

 

If only I could convert the clicks to real money I would have exactly 5 ¢ thanks to it 🤣 but that's not the reason for the post I made , I am more than happy to make unpopular proposals and discussions in which people disagree with me.

I am not sure why you think ammo is not a balance mechanic ,(which fails in warframe , Due to all the different mechanics which you have already highlighted.) Ammo mutation is only one of the things that screws it over.

And as you agree , there really is NO opportunity cost (well there Is the slot unlock cost) to using the ammo mutation mods which is what causes the imbalance to be effortless.

If two things do the same thing but one has little to no cost while another does require effort and regular investment which would you take ?

I never use carrier or ammo pads , so I won't miss em if they are gone nor was I really thinking of them, I would argue that carrier is ammo mutation butbin companion form. Others might , but i have yet to see anyone plop an ammo pad in the game in the entire history of me playing with squads.

I really do not see a flaw in my logic , but I have a feeling you are focusing on a smaller aspect of the larger topic. 

Which is that ammo consumption by different category of weapons is currently not fair.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

One of said inequities is the rate of ammo replacement. In pretty much any game where ammo pickups are a thing, the amount you get per weapon is varied based on its expected consumption.

Actually the only relevant inequity you noted was rate of DPS.

This is because you have numerous solutions for ammo replacement available already. Your scenario describes the difference between reloading a hand cannon vs reloading a large capacity bullet hose.  You aren't supposed to get an equal rate of return as the weapons aren't equal to begin with.

I guess I am to surmise that the "pretty much any game" assertion suggests shooters where ammo is more meaningful to begin with given that it's likely the only option on offer.

Feel free to give some examples and we can parse it out though.

[Corvid]

17 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

This is because you have numerous solutions for ammo replacement available already.

And without them being innate to the weapon, they aren't a solution. Since said options apply just as effectively (if not moreso) to the weapons that don't have issues with ammo economy as the ones that do, they only serve to exacerbate the gulf, not close it.

Just changing it so that autopistols innately got more per pickup than hand cannons would be a good start.

17 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually the only relevant inequity you noted was rate of DPS.

If Weapon A fires 10 shots a second dealing 10 damage each, and Weapon B fires 1 shot per second that deals 100, they both have equal DPS, but Weapon B has 10 times the ammo efficiency of Weapon A. Which means that in order to be sustainable, A needs to get 10 times as much ammo from drops as B would in the same scenario.

Edit: If both are restocked from the same pickup, as different weapon archetypes so often are in this game, and the amount of ammo gained is not handled on a per-weapon basis, then you'll run into one of two situations. Either A will be starved for ammo while B breaks even, or A will break even, while B effectively gains unlimited ammunition.

DPS is not the factor here, ammo efficiency is.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If only I could convert the clicks to real money I would have exactly 5 ¢ thanks to it 🤣 but that's not the reason for the post I made , I am more than happy to make unpopular proposals and discussions in which people disagree with me.

It's not that your proposal is unpopular insomuch as it makes no sense. 

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And as you agree , there really is NO opportunity cost to using the ammo mutation mods which is what causes the imbalance to be effortless.

I don't agree with you and suggest you consider re-reading—There's no opportunity cost to any of them because you have other options to begin with.
The only cost is in the use of the adaptor itself.

In essence, they have no effect on DPS where another option wouldn't as well. 

As such, your balance argument makes no sense. 

It's precisely why you couldn't provide the specific instance requested... Because there actually isn't one.

That alone should be enough to clue you in on the fact that your argument has holes.

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It's not that your proposal is unpopular insomuch as it makes no sense. 

I don't agree with you and suggest you consider re-reading—There's no opportunity cost to any of them because you have other options to begin with.
The only cost is in the use of the adaptor itself.

In essence, they have no effect on DPS where another option wouldn't as well. 

As such, your balance argument makes no sense. 

It's precisely why you couldn't provide the specific instance requested... Because there actually isn't one.

That alone should be enough to clue you in on the fact that your argument has holes.

More like you are trying to push a flawed mechanic as flawless cause you don't use the weapons it affects and already use tools to bypass it in the first place.

Are you going to continue to nitpick on ammo mutation and it's multiple variants ( which all do the same thing) or are you going to consider the actual topic.

Please do let me know what your DPS is with no bullets in the magazine  ? 

Do you not understand the basic concept that if you need a hundred bullets to kill an enemy but you only get 30 back it will keep losing ammo until you have zero? 

Does this not strike you as inherently unfair ? 

[Rakosta_Kai]

Just now, Corvid said:

Just changing it so that autopistols innately got more per pickup than hand cannons would be a good start.

They expect bullet hoses to be bullet hoses which is why bullet hoses are bullet hoses.

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

If Weapon A fires 10 shots a second dealing 10 damage each, and Weapon B fires 1 shot per second that deals 100, they both have equal DPS, but Weapon B has 10 times the ammo efficiency of Weapon A. Which means that in order to be sustainable, A needs to get 10 times as much ammo from drops as B would in the same scenario.

DPS is not the factor here, ammo efficiency is.

Nope. Still DPS... 
Because if you don't have the ammo to fire 10 shots dealing 10 damage each you are doing 0 DPS.

The weapon's ammo efficiency was known to you when you equipped it. 

You elected that degree of efficiency in the loadout and it then became your obligation to plan accordingly.
 The nifty thing is you have many many options on how you can offset that issue.

The real question is what you are getting for that decreased efficiency...That, funnily enough, is what Opportunity Cost actually looks like @0_The_F00l  

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

The weapon's ammo efficiency was known to you when you equipped it. 

You elected that degree of efficiency in the loadout and it then became your obligation to plan accordingly.
 The nifty thing is you have many many options on how you can offset that issue.

The real question is what you are getting for that decreased efficiency...That, funnily enough, is what Opportunity Cost actually looks like @0_The_F00l  

Yes , that is why most players (myself included) do not use those weapons. 

I would be more inclined to use it if they didn't run out of ammo that frequently.

That's the topic to balance ammo inefficiencies. Without which any arsenal divide bridging would not be effective.

[Corvid]

7 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Nope. Still DPS... 

No, it really isn't. DPS is a controlled factor here. The weapons deal equal DPS, but one will have more issues with ammo than the other. That is the problem we are trying to solve.

If you continue to be stubborn and refuse to recognise this fundamental fact, I really see no point in continuing this discussion

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

More like you are trying to push a flawed mechanic as flawless cause you don't use the weapons it affects and already use tools to bypass it in the first place.

Are you going to continue to nitpick on ammo mutation and it's multiple variants ( which all do the same thing) or are you going to consider the actual topic.

Please do let me know what your DPS is with no bullets in the magazine  ? 

Do you not understand the basic concept that if you need a hundred bullets to kill an enemy but you only get 30 back it will keep losing ammo until you have zero? 

Does this not strike you as inherently unfair ? 

More like your argument is just exactly misplaced enough to be called a sand castle instead...

Your argument seeks a remedy as an adjunct for your inability/dis-taste to plan appropriately. 

I don't care if your goofy priming bullet hose runs out of ammo— That means it's working as intended.

If it ran out, it did so because you failed to plan. 

As such, You let that happen.

FWIW, My DPS is fine. I don't run out of ammo because I planned to keep it from happening in the first place. There are a ton of tools at my disposal to do so and I use what fits.

But, I actually plan for instances when I use weapons like that...

Perhaps try that instead of trying to re-invent the wheel or magically shifting around your goalposts?

Both are bad tactics to resolve challenges in my opinion.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

22 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes , that is why most players (myself included) do not use those weapons. 

I would be more inclined to use it if they didn't run out of ammo that frequently.

That's the topic to balance ammo inefficiencies. Without which any arsenal divide bridging would not be effective.

You need to work on your weapons and spray and pray playstyle then. 

Padre akais is correct. 

So far we have 2 specific weapons that you're using to justify a game wide change. Do you have any other examples? 

[SneakyErvin]

58 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I'm guessing either ammo mutation or Carrier is a staple of your builds?

There are many weapons in this game which don't have the damage output necessary to get enough drops to sustain themselves without either switching to melee or using one of the above methods.

Actually no. Just running mutation on a few weapons like Kuva Zarr.