It's time to nerf Wukong

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb p_silveira:

wuclone being a broken AFK turret

🤣

how do you compare? with afk pet that the whole mission is meaningless in the corner? 😂🤦‍♂️

sentinel and railjack crew make the afk clone look old. clone has intentionally lousy ai that runs in mele range with aoe gun and waits like a granny until he finally shoots.

[vanaukas]

8 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I guess I just don't mind Wukong very much to be honest with you? I was mostly joking but now I see panic threads popping up about Wukong as well. This is going to be a very spicy drama! 

If the problem is the clone AoE'ing stuff to death then maybe the adjustments will fix it, but I guess I would rather play with one on the team than a Volt, Wisp, Khora or other Warframe with a really annoying movement skill or something they will use to get enemies stuck to the bottom of a ledge lol.

Yeah I don't think it really deserves a "nerf" TBH, while clone is OP is the weapons that makes him "bad" in the eyes of most people. I agree with the second paragraph.

Maybe DE will embrace full AOE? They'll nerf it? Who knows, I'm kinda eager to see what are their QOL fixes on 17/08. Let's see what the "new" managment has to offer in that regard.

[cute_moth.npc]

11 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Yeah I don't think it really deserves a "nerf" TBH, while clone is OP is the weapons that makes him "bad" in the eyes of most people. I agree with the second paragraph.

Maybe DE will embrace full AOE? They'll nerf it? Who knows, I'm kinda eager to see what are their QOL fixes on 17/08. Let's see what the "new" managment has to offer in that regard.

Why wait and see when I can manifest my own reality right now through the power of hyperbole and panic?! 

Edit: okay I looked at Pablo's twitter and he really is alluding to nerfing Wukong. Time of panic is now. Also he has a bunch of cute kitties! 

(I am also looking forward to seeing what they do. I'm excited after learning that Reb lead for the Zariman update because even with some of the controversial stuff I didn't like I honestly think Zariman has been one of the best content updates since I started playing)

[Sammonoske]

4 hours ago, p_silveira said:

Me seeing Pablo hinting at re-balancing Wukong on Twitter

 

Wuclone is hella broken and paired with AoE he disrupts the mission for the other 3 players in the squad. I'm tired of loading into a SP alert and it becoming a walking simulator because of Wuclone + Zarr/Bramma/etc killed everything on sight in 2 seconds. I'm all in for nerfing them.

Nothing you said is a problem caused by Wukong. Just say you hate AoE, because I can accomplish the same thing with any frame.

[Numerikuu]

53 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Yeah I don't think it really deserves a "nerf" TBH, while clone is OP is the weapons that makes him "bad" in the eyes of most people. I agree with the second paragraph.

Maybe DE will embrace full AOE? They'll nerf it? Who knows, I'm kinda eager to see what are their QOL fixes on 17/08. Let's see what the "new" managment has to offer in that regard.

Going by the Twitch stream going on right now with him and Brozime, it sounds like they plan to nerf it. Tldr anything that takes away from the gameplay of others? Needs to be looked at.

Oh also all 3 starters are getting looked at. Not just Mag and Excal. Noice. Possibly Grendel as well.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Every other game out there that with a summoner the minions are made to get kills because that's how it's supposed to work

Aren't summoners also, typically, pretty low on the durability scale? Their summons are often as much a means of defense as offense. That fits with the likes of Nyx or Nekros, but "immortal monkey god" seems an outlier on the trend.

Equinox Duality also cries at being forgotten.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb cute_moth.npc:

Why wait and see when I can manifest my own reality right now through the power of hyperbole and panic?! 

Edit: okay I looked at Pablo's twitter and he really is alluding to nerfing Wukong. Time of panic is now. Also he has a bunch of cute kitties! 

(I am also looking forward to seeing what they do. I'm excited after learning that Reb lead for the Zariman update because even with some of the controversial stuff I didn't like I honestly think Zariman has been one of the best content updates since I started playing)

but who cares? for spy I'll take something else. spy is also super boring after a while. and for resque we still have titania.

and who needs half afk clone with lousy ai for "dmg".... should try other warframes.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

Yeah I don't think it really deserves a "nerf" TBH, while clone is OP is the weapons that makes him "bad" in the eyes of most people.

From a more "Pablo" / design POV, I feel that Celestial Twin is simply too passive for its benefits. We've had World on Fire taken out for accomplishing the same "turn it on and everything around you dies" sort of thing. But that could be fixed a number of ways, from a duration limit to making the clone more passive, like restricting it to melee attacks, when not given a target.

His 3 feels fine. His 4 wants some help. His 2 might be a tiny bit too "can do everything", what with healing, bypassing Spy vaults, and being a good mission speed-run tool. Titania's 4 only really pulls off the latter. Personally, I think there's a fairly simple and fair solution to that: turn Enveloping Cloud (the Cloud Walker augment) into Stratosphere and have that carry the invisibility and Spy bypassing effect. It fits with Enveloping Cloud's invisibility effect, after all. His regular Cloud Walker would heal him and make him temporarily invincible, but wouldn't make him invisible or bypass laser barriers. Maybe we could actually see him riding a cloud that way, eh?

[kinoko_takenoko]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Aren't summoners also, typically, pretty low on the durability scale? Their summons are often as much a means of defense as offense. That fits with the likes of Nyx or Nekros, but "immortal monkey god" seems an outlier on the trend.

Equinox Duality also cries at being forgotten.

Since the original statement seems to claim that "summoners abilities other than Wukong are impractical.
I think it is just "summoners ability to not be an outlier of the trend is useless."

Isn't what is needed to bring other summoners up to Wukong's level?

At least just because the trend for summoners is "many of ours are currently impractical" is no reason to make them impractical to the ones that aren't.
(Or say "all offensive abilities are low damage and at higher levels should be a waste of energy just to use them"?)

[CosoMalvadoNG]

 

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

🤣

how do you compare? with afk pet that the whole mission is meaningless in the corner? 😂🤦‍♂️

sentinel and railjack crew make the afk clone look old. clone has intentionally lousy ai that runs in mele range with aoe gun and waits like a granny until he finally shoots.

What does the railjack crew have to do with a near-immortal clone that does double your damage and after die you can just summon it again? and how dare you put up a sentinel that barely does support damage against a thing that kills everything in one hit? The comparison is hilarious.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

23 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

Since the original statement seems to claim that "summoners abilities other than Wukong are impractical.
I think it is just "summoners ability to not be an outlier of the trend is useless."

Isn't what is needed to bring other summoners up to Wukong's level?

At least just because the trend for summoners is "many of ours are currently impractical" is no reason to make them impractical to the ones that aren't.
(Or say "all offensive abilities are low damage and at higher levels should be a waste of energy just to use them"?)

Make him impractical? - How is he have a clone stronger than the original? Without sense.
A nerf that in my opinion would fall a bit short but acceptable. 
- 2x clone damage to 0.5x and scales depending on ability strength
- Amount of health of the clone that depends only on the health of the warframe and not on the ability strength of it.


PS: DE is guided by numbers, not passionate comments from mains about something specific (weapons/warframes/systems), otherwise they would have already buffed 90% of the old warframes.

[Uhkretor]

... oh my god, this thing is still going...

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

You should look at the usage stats chart DE made for 2021. It shows Wukong Prime at high usage rates, well above Saryn's too. That doesn't really fit with an ease of acquisition hypothesis.

 

I've seen it, I don't care.

My point is DE adjusted Where Saryn is in the game, and she can nuke an entire room which I'd say more powerful than Wukong's twin everyone and their grandma keeps crying about. 🙄 

 

6 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

The part that is completely unbalanced you pass it through the lining of the ass.

His passive: Broken
1: Ridiculous broken
2: Haha i'm inmortal.
3: Not enough with 2? more immortal.
4: It's funny that it's his only balanced ability but everyone says it's bad xD

 

Originally Wukong play style was immortal (and boring) Pablo made him fun that's all.

And I didn't say mistwalker was bad, I was just acknowledging how good it is and that I believe it plays more of a role in why so many players gravitate toward playing Son Wukong.

 

6 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

did... you just assume my post was about not nerfing wukong? you have no idea how much he needs to be nerfed. just remember that 10% of players use him. the next down is excal at 4.5%. and excal a starter

and your suggestions aren't going to do anything because wukong prime is mr5 so as soon as new players get to mr5 they will get him because people tell them to.

 

No, I didn't wrongly assume your post I was using it in my example of Saryn being popular for her room nuking, and how instead of nerfing Wukong DE could just up his acquisition level.

Speaking of which! A very good point you've made there DE should also increase Wukong's MR. 

Good idea 👍 

 

 

Lastly Son Wukong is fine, fun and there's nothing wrong with him, we don't need to nerf Wukong we need to uplift the other Frames 💗👍.

[Tyreaus]

20 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... oh my god, this thing is still going...

It never ends. Just get the popcorn, buckle up, and enjoy.

  

1 minute ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

I've seen it, I don't care.

My point is DE adjusted Where Saryn is in the game, and she can nuke an entire room which I'd say more powerful than Wukong's twin everyone and their grandma keeps crying about. 🙄 

I mean, the point I had quoted was your hypothesis that Wukong is popular because he's accessible. And I was showing that doesn't match up with the data.

But if you don't care about your hypothesis being supported by data, uh...you do you, I guess?

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

19 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... oh my god, this thing is still going...

 

🤣🤣🤣 you're telling me. Son Wukong, we fight for you!!!

[nslay]

4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Some miserable people require that people around them be put in an even more miserable state than them, even if temporary, in order to feel better about themselves in relative terms. We live in a world where people like this will feel joy watching people's livelihood be taken away even when it causes their life to come to an end.

It's behavior that's just going to exist for as long as humans as is do.

There's actually a word for this: schadenfreude

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schadenfreude

I learned it from the goldfish in American Dad.

 

[p_silveira]

3 hours ago, Sammonoske said:

Nothing you said is a problem caused by Wukong. Just say you hate AoE, because I can accomplish the same thing with any frame.

And yet the usage numbers for all the other frames in the game is way below Wukong. I wonder why that is...

And yes, the AoE weapons are a big problem on their own, but Wukong exacerbates the problem even more by giving the players a teleporting aimbot with infinite ammo to shoot said weapons. You don't even need to shoot them yourself anymore, the game plays itself for you while you Alt+Tab to YouTube or go check your phone. Just load into any pub mission a few times, and you're bound to see a few Wukong + Bramma/Zarr/Ogris/etc, for how much used this combo is.

Wukong needs a hard rebalance. _{I'm all in for nerfing the AoE weapons while they're at it too.}

[gamingchair1121]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

we need to uplift the other Frames

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

27 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... oh my god, this thing is still going...

 

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

 

🤣🤣🤣 you're telling me. Son Wukong, we fight for you!!!

 

8 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

It never ends. Just get the popcorn, buckle up, and enjoy.

  

I mean, the point I had quoted was your hypothesis that Wukong is popular because he's accessible. And I was showing that doesn't match up with the data.

But if you don't care about your hypothesis being supported by data, uh...you do you, I guess?

 

Nnnnnn nnnn na no you've miss it Saryn right is a popular nuker shes not used as much as Wukong BUT I wager the ability to nuke a room is more powerful than Wukong's twin Saryn intsa poping the map makes it harder to play yourself, and you end up not doing much at least Wukong n, twin can be on the opposite side of the map. So, Son Wukong and his twin isn't as bad in retrospect.  

[Tyreaus]

13 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

Next step: expanding Helminth to all Warframe abilities and allowing any number of ability replacements on a Warframe. Tada, modular Warframes.

  

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Nnnnnn nnnn na no you've miss it Saryn right is a popular nuker shes not used as much as Wukong BUT I wager the ability to nuke a room is more powerful than Wukong's twin Saryn intsa poping the map makes it harder to play yourself, and you end up not doing much at least Wukong n, twin can be on the opposite side of the map. So, Son Wukong and his twin isn't as bad in retrospect.  

You're skipping over "I had quoted...your hypothesis that Wukong is popular because he's accessible." Me mentioning Saryn was around the fact that she's generally considered easier to attain than Wukong Prime, but it's Wukong Prime that has the higher use rate. (Wukong Prime has a better use rate than Saryn Prime, too, so that's accessibility out of the equation altogether.) So that doesn't jive with the accessibility hypothesis.

As far as strength comparisons go, I don't have an investment in it whatsoever, but I want to point out it's a bit apples-to-oranges. Saryn wipes missions like Defense just fine, but that kit doesn't carry over quite so well into Exterminate and similar higher-mobility missions. Wukong's Celestial Twin has a much better mobility in that sense, but tends to struggle somewhat with some terrains present in more static missions like Defense.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Next step: expanding Helminth to all Warframe abilities and allowing any number of ability replacements on a Warframe. Tada, modular Warframes.

that's probably Soul Frame

[0_The_F00l]

Quite a few people scared of getting their overpowered gear nerfed i see.

Thats to be expected i guess.

Continuing on my original comment,

As long as ammo mutation exists , any sort of ammo limits would be moot,

and removing ammo mutation completely would be rather heavy handed,

Assuming launcher ammo is made a thing , my recommendation is to apply a cooldown on ammo mutation and limit the max ammo it can convert per instance,

Eg: Ammo mutation mod converts max 1 magazine worth of ammo every 10-15 seconds at max rank. Lower rank ammo mutation converts lesser of the magazine and has longer cooldown.

 

Bonus :

Getting caught in your own explosion has a chance to detonate part of your max ammo.

[Rafien]

Il y a 10 heures, ABlindGuyPlays a dit :

Oberon.

Note: Oberon is my most used frame.

As long as the enemies don't outdamage your healing you'are pratically invicible (you can easily go in steel path with it)

Il y a 10 heures, BiancaRoughfin a dit :

Frost

4 strips armor + stuns and 3 deals true damage when projecting enemies on walls, easy steel path as well

Il y a 10 heures, Simply_The_Cat a dit :

Hydroid :D

Hydroid can basically have infinite damage with his pond due to his scaling + 4 augment gets him 100% loot chance has mentioned by someone else

 

Wukong or AOE definitly needs a nerf, either by lowering the speed of his 2 so other players can keep up and get to do something in the mission and nerfing his clone damages or by nerfing AOE, easiest way that comes to mind to anyone is by nerfing fall-of damage

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

3 minutes ago, Rafien said:

4 strips armor + stuns and 3 deals true damage when projecting enemies on walls, easy steel path as well

Needs 250% strength, doesnt affect eximus. I hate the 3 true damage because in order for it to be useful you have to have helminth, and EVERY build you see at SP is abusing this mechanic, and hiding the fact he needs a buff. Frost is my most played, but I'd like to see the true damage removed given buffs to somewhere else in his kit as to not make him weaker.

And yeah nerf the monkey. Or what I'd rather see is to see DE get on the frame buff train. And go through and buffing/reworking the old frames.

[L3512]

7 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I recommend that you start testing the staff build, i don't think it's as bad as wuzarrs say.  87k =  0 forma 

Cool, now try to do any sort of scaling damage.