It's time to nerf Wukong

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

who thinks that wukong is op... needs help! professional help!

i have dozens of builds that are way better than wukong. and wukong was nothing more than a speed runner to use in simple missions. but since a joker thinks it's op, then he should play with the warframe with the most content. but! Of course he doesn't...

this is all so embarrassing.

Wukong isn't OP in endgame content, but he's far and away the most beginner-friendly frame all the way up through Sortie level:

• Three free extra lives (this really promotes some bad habits)
• Cheap and invincible self-heal
• Can attack with two weapons at once
• Can just casually pull 1500 extra armor out of his monkey butt
• Has THE best damage-absorption power in the game. Seriously he humiliates Nyx in every way

I don't blame him for being the most overused frame, he has so many attractive options for early and mid-game players

[Numerikuu]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Wukong isn't OP in endgame content, but he's far and away the most beginner-friendly frame all the way up through Sortie level:

• Three free extra lives (this really promotes some bad habits)
• Cheap and invincible self-heal
• Can attack with two weapons at once
• Can just casually pull 1500 extra armor out of his monkey butt
• Has THE best damage-absorption power in the game. Seriously he humiliates Nyx in every way

I don't blame him for being the most overused frame, he has so many attractive options for early and mid-game players

What do you consider end-game? Because him and his clone decimate SP as well.

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Wuzarr go bbbbbrrrrrr, and nuke ability frames are nothing to cry over

... Fixed it for ya. 👍

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

What do you consider end-game? Because him and his clone decimate SP as well.

Wukong is still good in the endgame, but he's not overpowered like Riven-abuse Khora or basically any Saryn build

[Genitive]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

does anyone know where we can find the graph they use on the vid? I want to look at certain usage rates.

 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

Highlights and things I noticed

• Wukong isnt getting nerfed solely because his pick rate, It's because the pickrate of high MR players.
• Pablo says the eximus immunity hasnt hurt CC frames in terms of pickrate that much. Outside of Steel Path that is. I really wanna see the pickrates for Mr 16+ players.
• Mag, Excal, and VOLT are getting buff/reworks
• They are talking about and reviewing energy economy
• They are scared of touching Grendel, Pablo WANTS to rework him but has constraints
• Fear of buffing base stats of frames
• De will be changing the META, this will be likely mentioned in the next devstream. (nerfs/Buffs,  idk)
• Hints that gloom is the most used helminth ability
• Pablo dislikes the idea of an augment slot as it removes tough build choices
• New warframe weekly sorties, but Steel Path level (noice)

Im still watching

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Talking about Wukong Prime, not base Wukong. And as I said: you can take acquisition difficulty out of the equation altogether by comparing Wukong Prime with Saryn Prime. Both being primes, those two have fairly equal challenge in acquiring. There's still a notable difference in usage. Ergo, "that doesn't jive with the accessibility hypothesis."

And I was talking about the base frames since if the primes were to be vaulted at same time then I believe the minority of players would go after the base frames not wanting to deal with trade chat. So, yea Wukong's easier. 

 

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

My personal suggestion has, largely, been:

1. Make Celestial Twin use ranged weapons only when the player assigns the twin a target, because its current mechanics are too passive for its benefit and I find mucking with a melee (or not using a melee if you want both to use ranged weapons) to be a touch awkward.

2. Put the invisibility / intangibility aspect of Cloud Walker into its augment (which gives invisibility to the team so it fits), and give us some pleasant "surfing on a cloud" visuals for non-augmented Cloud Walker.

3. Upgrade Iron Staff, for example allowing Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, and probably give a similar treatment to many other exalted melee weapons that desire a bit of an upgrade.

And I'd consider #2 to be entirely optional. I think that would make it better balanced when considering the closest alternatives like Ivara or Titania, but Warframe being Warframe, that level of balance finesse is not terribly necessary.

Hmm....    I actually like this

Q:  Would the augment give a Cloud walker ( now changed to be Son Goku riding nimbus)  its current mist laser avoiding properties?

 

Other than then I really like this 👍 and I can agree about the odd situation of gun/melee with Wukong's twin, I like the ideal you preposed for it. 

[Lutesque]

On 2022-08-05 at 6:06 PM, Simply_The_Cat said:

-Snip

It's Easier to Hammer Down the Nail that Sticks Out....

Such is the Nature of a Game as poorly Balanced as Warframe were Nerfs are based on Popularity rather Than Functionality....

[tabernacl]

watched some of this live when it happened. reworks will start with first 3 frames you start game with then probably moved on from there. lot's of frames need reworks but he can't do them all at the same time obviously. so he'll pick preference probably based on stats instead of what individuals want. he also has to develop a lot of other stuff besides reworks. so they will take some time. as for his take on eximus's overguard. he is correct, but also a little not so. I think he contextualized eximus units as being sparse and something you can use tactic to engage properly. on paper this makes sense, but in game the spawns are so wacked that sometimes you'll have many eximus spawn next to you or even on you out of thin air. the problem isn't the eximus units themselves but the way they correlate with the spawn scripts. (personally I'm a little tired of every mission type being horde mode. Survival sure.. but others? hmm)

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

19 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Nuke ability frames go bbbbbrrrrrr, and Wuzarr are nothing to cry over

 ... Fixed it for ya. 👍

[Tyreaus]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

And I was talking about the base frames since if the primes were to be vaulted at same time then I believe the minority of players would go after the base frames not wanting to deal with trade chat. So, yea Wukong's easier. 

Ah - I think I misread your initial point and missed you were talking specifically about new players. That explains at least some confusion.

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Hmm....    I actually like this

Q:  Would the augment give a Cloud walker ( now changed to be Son Goku riding nimbus)  its current mist laser avoiding properties?

I would say yes. Between "new" Cloud Walker and Ivara, I tend to see Ivara as needing Prowl + Infiltrator to go up, rather than Cloud Walker needing to go further down.

Also I'd personally rename it to "Stratosphere" because I'm so clever.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

 

 

[Rantear]

Just heard about it, nerfing because of high usage... I'm usually not the one to criticize devs, I love majority of things that they do, especially lately, but this one just irks me.
Remember the Catchmoon nerf? Now we have Nataruk and Tenet Plasmor, both of which are much stronger, direct upgrades over the pre-nerf Catchmoon, what was the point?
How high did Hydroid usage increase after the Twitch giveaway? I bet it was quite a major increase, yet he still sucks as much as ever, but with this logic he won't see any buffs in quite a while, because he's not at the bottom now, and the sad part, that usually it would be considered doom-talk, but now they legit think that Grendel, out of all frames, needs buffs more than Hydroid. One of the strongest frames in the game, capable of devouring and dearmoring entire rooms while being nigh immortal needs buffs more than the wet noodle boy that barely kills lvl 30 enemies with his abilities that also take forever to cast... WTF DE? Changes should NEVER be based of usage alone.

I haven't played that many online games, but off the top of my head I know 2 examples from other games, where things with unexplainably high usage (like >50%) among the community were nearly the worst in their class, usage rate by itself is absolutely not something that can be used as a measure of effectiveness, only of convenience.
While I don't really care about Wukong (despite maining him for quite some time, I currently run un-potatoed Gauss - he already feels much stronger, and is much more fun, I'll wait till his prime and "transfer" fully). I will straight-up lose all hope in devs' judgement if balance changes because of usage become a trend, only looking at usage and not effectiveness is literally the epitomy of "no fun allowed", and it has long lasting consequences - you'll overbuff something strong that is underused for wrong reasons, then you'll have to nerf it, then nerf something weak that is overused just because it's easy to get or is easy to play - it's a lot of precious dev time wasted (and a lot of upset people), and that will add up, especially now that development team potentialy split to also work on SoulFrame and when there are frames that are actually in need of changes for quite a while. 
Also I expected there to be like 80% usage or at least 40-50% but less than 10%? Seriously? Gonna nerf the starters next? Straight up overreaction on devs part, ignored the fact that he's an all-rounder (which there aren't many in the game to begin with, can't even think of anyone, maybe Rhino, bet he also rode on top of charts when his prime was released) that recently been easily farmable for 2 years, people still have hundreds of relics laying around, and newer players easily get him because of that, bumping up the usage even more. With that mentality you'll eventially nerf everything to Hydroid levels, because something will always stand out.
Same goes for buffing Grendel, he's a strong frame, if you want to increase his usage just reduce the grind for essence (or wait till his prime), you'll see a major bump in usage, if I haven't leeched off others to get him, i'd still won't have him.
-Rant over-

Wukong is an average frame at best, if there's no need for stealth (even then, operators exist) and if you don't run a Kuva Zarr or Bramma, he's literally just an Inaros with his 2 and 3 acting as panic buttons, has 2 useless abilites (3 and 4, 3 is useless because of 2, adaptation, and the fact that survivability mods are more usefull on him than ability mods, just like on Inaros, 4 is useless because you either run better melee yourself, or you'll nerf your clone by pressing it), only cloud walker is really good, you can split it up into 2 abilities if you want to nerf him that much. His clone is kinda meh: forces you to use melee so that it will shoot, or no melee and use Zarr/Bramma, not sure if he's even usable with anything else: tried with Ogris several times, he just kept shooting his feet and missing all the enemies, anything but those 2 weapons - he almost constantly reloads and misses, you can do whatever you want to the clone, just remember that crewmates exist, just like with Catchmoon there is no point in nerfing him now, everybody has a murder-AI in their pocket now, you could end-up with wasted dev-time.
Only maybe make the anti-AFK more strict, although I never actually met anyone using him for just AFK-ing, BUT - those who want to AFK will AFK anyway, I'd prefer at least having an AI ally if I'll ever run into one. However, if you fix AI to better work with all the weapons, maybe let us give him orders, and generally make him more entertaining to use, I'm all up for it, but for the love of God, nerf the AoE first (although that is another whole container of worms right there), and only then look at him, I fear that you'll just ruin a frame for no reason.

Спойлер

Sorry for me bed England, and for the wall of text, doubt anyone who makes decisions will actually see it tho, they're usually on Reddit, i think.

 

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Just heard about it, nerfing because of high usage... I'm usually not the one to criticize devs, I love majority of things that they do, especially lately, but this one just irks me.
Remember the Catchmoon nerf? Now we have Nataruk and Tenet Plasmor, both of which are much stronger, direct upgrades over the pre-nerf Catchmoon, what was the point?
How high did Hydroid usage increase after the Twitch giveaway? I bet it was quite a major increase, yet he still sucks as much as ever, but with this logic he won't see any buffs in quite a while, because he's not at the bottom now, and the sad part, that usually it would be considered doom-talk, but now they legit think that Grendel, out of all frames, needs buffs more than Hydroid. One of the strongest frames in the game, capable of devouring and dearmoring entire rooms while being nigh immortal needs buffs more than the wet noodle boy that barely kills lvl 30 enemies with his abilities that also take forever to cast... WTF DE? Changes should NEVER be based of usage alone.

I think the idea it's based off usage is a simplification of the actual behind-the-scenes, at least in this case.

As per an interview between Brozime and Pablo, Pablo has pointed out that Wukong was basically fine during the 2021 statistics collection, in large part because the AoE meta hadn't taken off. With that having changed, there are concerns about the Warframe enabling much more passive gameplay, which is something the developers want to avoid.

All things considered, that does mean Wukong isn't that far off. He's tipped over the line, but only with a toe or two. And it also doesn't mean that high usage rates are even bad: Wukong had high usage rate at least since 2021, probably 2020 but I didn't look and don't remember, and he was left alone all that time. So their decision process isn't based on usage alone; usage simply indicates something may be amiss. Which makes sense.

[Tyreaus]

47 minutes ago, tabernacl said:

he'll pick preference probably based on stats instead of what individuals want.

Also on what ideas the team can get together and agree on. Sometimes you just know exactly what to do for a given project and everyone hops on board. Sometimes there's debate. Sometimes nobody has any idea where to even start. Every project has its own unique set of challenges and no matter how important things are, some projects are just easier to do than others. And sometimes doing those easy projects leads to ideas for the hard ones. You start with algebra before getting into complex numbers, after all.

49 minutes ago, tabernacl said:

he is correct, but also a little not so. I think he contextualized eximus units as being sparse and something you can use tactic to engage properly. on paper this makes sense, but in game the spawns are so wacked that sometimes you'll have many eximus spawn next to you or even on you out of thin air.

"Be careful, there's a heavy unit nearby."

Turns corner, sees no fewer than five Eximus units.

One heavy unit, eh Lotus? Just a heavy unit?

50 minutes ago, tabernacl said:

(personally I'm a little tired of every mission type being horde mode. Survival sure.. but others? hmm)

I still say adjusting spawn (and drop) rates by factions is the better way to go. Grineer tend to be much tankier than Corpus but they come in similar numbers so you're having to deal sometimes exponentially more damage to clear out a tile. Meanwhile, the swarm faction of the Infested is barely more numerous than the tanky-boi Grineer so the whole zombie "threat by numbers" idea flies out the window and faceplants into the bushes.

[MutoManiac]

DE, please don’t touch Wukong. If you give all the frames cloud walker, I would play them more and you would get more cash from me and I would enjoy many more hours of game play. Seriously, I like about 12 frames and I don’t play them much because they stink or I stink at making them survive at higher levels. Just kidding, I stink because I’ve seen others use those frames at very high levels where they outperform Wukong. So on conclusion, Wukong is good as he’s not that powerful amd shouldn’t be nerfed. 😉

[OniDax]

So much focus on trying to get more people to use less used warframes. Maybe they should focus on improving the core gunplay and melee play through improving movement system, animations, weapon functionality and handling (like ADS and overhaul to recoil system), sound design, enemy behavior, and map design. Then instead of focusing on making less-used warframes more used, focus on reworking warframe abilities across the board so that those abilities and passives actually support the core gameplay.

[-Krism-]

1. As pointed out, we already have topic on this

2. Posting a video with "Thoughts" without giving yours is completely useless

[AbyssalSerpent]

5 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

DE, please don’t touch Wukong. If you give all the frames cloud walker, I would play them more and you would get more cash from me and I would enjoy many more hours of game play. Seriously, I like about 12 frames and I don’t play them much because they stink or I stink at making them survive at higher levels. Just kidding, I stink because I’ve seen others use those frames at very high levels where they outperform Wukong. So on conclusion, Wukong is good as he’s not that powerful amd shouldn’t be nerfed. 😉

This exactly. Before the Eximus rework I found that frames such as Revenant are a lot better at surviving than Wukong is. Especially since his "overpowered" celestial twin has the intellect of a walnut, where it does jack in protecting you even with a min-maxed Kuva Bramma or Kuva Zarr.

[-Krism-]

Leeching health from enemies by passing through them with Cloud Walker would already be better than the instant free health we have now

[AbyssalSerpent]

6 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Leeching health from enemies by passing through them with Cloud Walker would already be better than the instant free health we have now

Tbh it's easy to heal warframes nowadays since there's many ways. I can't remember the name but there's a healing arcane that (according to many users) DE ruined that made it so that once you transfer out and back into your warframe you regain about 300 health, also Magus Repair, melee mods that heal you on heavy attacks or status procs, Medi-Ray, and numerous helminth abilities.

[-Krism-]

1 minute ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

Tbh it's easy to heal warframes nowadays since there's many ways. I can't remember the name but there's a healing arcane that (according to many users) DE ruined that made it so that once you transfer out and back into your warframe you regain about 300 health, also Magus Repair, melee mods that heal you on heavy attacks or status procs, Medi-Ray, and numerous helminth abilities.

Your point being?

[AbyssalSerpent]

4 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

Your point being?

That same can be said about your post? People like you thinking his entire kit is broken and should be nerfed to the ground.

[-Krism-]

1 minute ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

That same can be said about your post? People like you thinking his entire kit is broken and should be nerfed to the ground.

Where in the f*ck did I say Wukong was broken?

[Vortex]

Between fixing last used warframes and destroying the most used and well designed, guess what they will do?