Valkyr's Paralysis is garbo

[Tesseract7777]

35 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

And that's why we have people say there's no challenge because damage scaling means enemy level has no meaning. Remove the scaling and you'll see enemies being harder beyond certain level

I disagree one leads to the other. I don't think they are directly related. What you are talking about is more the problem if scaling in general. 

Certain things can perform up to star chart which is meant to be the "basic game", but then some things can scale all the way up to 9999. Why can some things scale and others can't? Why is power in general a wildly swinging pendulum that can go from very little to ridiculous? Power in general in Warframe is out of control and I don't see how that would make any serious change to the overall problem, that Warframe simply doesn't have consistent tiering or scaling in general. 

Now I'm not suggesting this, because Warframe is a power fantasy, but in a lot of games your power actually SCALES DOWN when you are in a lower level zone, so matter how strong you are, you can only get so much overkill damage, etc. etc. 

Warframe is billed as super power fantasy so it doesn't have that. Apart from nerfing outliers, balance and tiering are already inconsistent as all hell and totally out the window. I would rather try to make Warframe harder by making the enemies themselves harder tbh, instead of just thinking numbers are going to do jack all to a game where numbers mean practically nothing and things are nerfed only based on popularity to protect usage statistics. 

Give the enemies back things that made them tough. Nullifiers used to be more of a threat, and not because of stats. Same with Manics, Bursa's and so many other enemies that have been nerfed (mechanically speaking) into the ground. 

Stat's can't fix the game for people who want a challenge, but more interesting enemies can help fill that niche. Trying to stop people from finding ways to do overkill damage is whack-a-mole game that never ends and just upsets people playing a power fantasy. Right now the game of using a light touch for nerfs mainly with outliers is working well for a PvE game. But at this point I don't believe Warframe can be balanced stats wise, and I don't think stats mean jack quite frankly, so we might as well allow any ability that can damage to scale. 

What difference does it make if the enemy has more hp when I can make them stand still and remove all their armor with shuriken or Nyx and disable their abilities with silence, etc? What difference does any of that make when if you restrict me from having power scaling with one frame, I just find another frame that can reach the max damage cap with ease? Make the enemies resist my abilities, use abilities against me. Have interesting strategies, etc. That is the way to create challenge, not by tossing a bunch of extra numbers.

We already learned this from people calling SP sponge path. It's not harder to anyone with decent mods, you just might have lower TTK if you take the wrong weapons because they are sponges, but you can still make them meaningless in a billion ways nothing has really changed at all. The game is still an easy joke. Give them max hp and someone will just find another way to do max damage and erase them after removing their armor. 

[RazerXPrime]

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

13 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm using it with Condemn, Aegis, and Redirection.

That around 7-9K Impact? (Of which I can bet it's useless against Grineer apart from the execute)

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

That around 7-9K Impact? (Of which I can bet it's useless against Grineer apart from the execute)

I don't recall, but as I said, I don't bother using it against anything but Infested.

 I have another build that I use sometimes for medallion hunting, as Paralysis breaks containers through walls.  High range, low strength. It is capable of nuking other kinds of low level units at moderate range, but that's not its primary purpose.  Amusing thing about that build is it can have some issues killing containers. 😉

 

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't recall, but as I said, I don't bother using it against anything but Infested.

 I have another build that I use sometimes for medallion hunting, as Paralysis breaks containers through walls.  High range, low strength. It is capable of nuking other kinds of low level units at moderate range, but that's not its primary purpose.  Amusing thing about that build is it can have some issues killing containers. 😉

 

I'm always a Prolonged Paralysis CC spammer, is the damage falloff for Paralysis capped at a minimum for the max range, or is it 0% at max range?

[Melles64]

I may regret jumping in, but the fact that Valkyr's kit is outdated is without question.

Ripline is a meme. It can be fun to spider man around and yank enemies, but it's just bad. The fact they essentially gave it to the Itzal when they did universal Archwing Blink was a major contributing factor in switching to using Amesha 100% of the time.

Warcry is solid, but the animation is really long and feels funky, and being the Helminth ability means its not particularly valuable to playing Valkyr, specifically.

Paralysis is, indeed, garbage. It requires using shields as a resource, which interacts poorly with Shield Gating. Valkyr's armor is incredibly good but it still harms her survivability to do that. Plenty of Warframes can open up finishers without any such cost, and the augment really doesn't make up for it. The damage might not be the point but it still doesn't change the fact its one of the worst versions of the ability

Speaking of worst versions of an ability, Hysteria is in a bad spot, as all Exalted Melees are. At this point there's really no good reason to keep restricting Blood Rush and similar mods from Exalted Melees, but she's in an even worse spot; her lifesteal and invulnerability can be negated by her deactivation curse that no other Warframe has to deal with, plus the scaling energy cost going up to 8x the initial drain. It's safer to use Sevagoth's Gloom to improve your survivability, which is a real shame, because Exalted Weapons are popular, exciting parts of a kit, even if they're currently in such a bad spot that you can often do better with a Mk-1 Bo.

Is Valkyr unplayable? No, not as such. Is she overshadowed by basically any other tanky short ranged Warframe that exists? I feel safe in saying yes.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

I'm always a Prolonged Paralysis CC spammer, is the damage falloff for Paralysis capped at a minimum for the max range, or is it 0% at max range?

It looks like there is no fall off penalty at all.  Which surprised me, as I was aware of the wiki describing its damage decreasing with distance.

That's the good news.  The bad news is that it's not doing the damage it should.  With my test build I should be getting ~2038 damage against Infested Chargers and it's about half of that.

 

edit:  In the wiki comments, there's a user saying that it's only applying half the shield amount in the damage calculation...

 

...In       2017 💩

 

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Melles64 said:

Ripline is a meme. It can be fun to spider man around and yank enemies, but it's just bad. The fact they essentially gave it to the Itzal when they did universal Archwing Blink was a major contributing factor in switching to using Amesha 100% of the time.

And the Jackal fight. 

Canonically, every single Warframe has a Ripline as shown in that fight, but Valkyr is the only one actually wasting an ability slot for it.

[Graavarg]

13 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I disagree one leads to the other. I don't think they are directly related. What you are talking about is more the problem if scaling in general. 

Certain things can perform up to star chart which is meant to be the "basic game", but then some things can scale all the way up to 9999. Why can some things scale and others can't? Why is power in general a wildly swinging pendulum that can go from very little to ridiculous? Power in general in Warframe is out of control and I don't see how that would make any serious change to the overall problem, that Warframe simply doesn't have consistent tiering or scaling in general. 

Now I'm not suggesting this, because Warframe is a power fantasy, but in a lot of games your power actually SCALES DOWN when you are in a lower level zone, so matter how strong you are, you can only get so much overkill damage, etc. etc. 

Warframe is billed as super power fantasy so it doesn't have that. Apart from nerfing outliers, balance and tiering are already inconsistent as all hell and totally out the window. I would rather try to make Warframe harder by making the enemies themselves harder tbh, instead of just thinking numbers are going to do jack all to a game where numbers mean practically nothing and things are nerfed only based on popularity to protect usage statistics. 

Give the enemies back things that made them tough. Nullifiers used to be more of a threat, and not because of stats. Same with Manics, Bursa's and so many other enemies that have been nerfed (mechanically speaking) into the ground. 

Stat's can't fix the game for people who want a challenge, but more interesting enemies can help fill that niche. Trying to stop people from finding ways to do overkill damage is whack-a-mole game that never ends and just upsets people playing a power fantasy. Right now the game of using a light touch for nerfs mainly with outliers is working well for a PvE game. But at this point I don't believe Warframe can be balanced stats wise, and I don't think stats mean jack quite frankly, so we might as well allow any ability that can damage to scale. 

What difference does it make if the enemy has more hp when I can make them stand still and remove all their armor with shuriken or Nyx and disable their abilities with silence, etc? What difference does any of that make when if you restrict me from having power scaling with one frame, I just find another frame that can reach the max damage cap with ease? Make the enemies resist my abilities, use abilities against me. Have interesting strategies, etc. That is the way to create challenge, not by tossing a bunch of extra numbers.

We already learned this from people calling SP sponge path. It's not harder to anyone with decent mods, you just might have lower TTK if you take the wrong weapons because they are sponges, but you can still make them meaningless in a billion ways nothing has really changed at all. The game is still an easy joke. Give them max hp and someone will just find another way to do max damage and erase them after removing their armor. 

I mostly agree with everything. Just want to point out that Warframe is actually billed as a co-op game. The "power fantasy" overkill concept originates from us players, and DE has sort of gotten around to the "power fantasy" part over time, probably because it (meta, baby, META!) is the core reason for playing the game for part of the player base. The concept is central for driving online media and in-game trade. DE still (sometimes desperately) tries to limit the "overkill" part, and one of the biggest challenges in Warframe in my opinion is the balance between "keep the power fantasy alive" and "stop the overkill from making the game meaningless".

Philosophically speaking it is the human experience in a nutshell, we strive for stuff we think we need or want, only to find them turn into meaningless ash once we get them. 🙂

Or looking at it from the other side: "it is the road that matters, dumbass, not the goal at the end of it"...

[EdinaMonsoon]

y'all are being dramatic about her kit