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Top 10 Ways To Revive Conclave


(PSN)ExcaliburSpecter
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On 2021-11-12 at 5:52 AM, Tyreaus said:

Doesn't BF have a very low average-skill average TTK? 

That heavly depends on the weapon. When you unlock Type-2A in BFV, it is insanely easy to get a kill here or there since this weapons is way too easy to use, and players have asked to nerf it several times, devs doing nothing. In terms of snipers however, almost always you HAVE to headshots, or otherwise YOU are the one who dies. 
 

On 2021-11-12 at 5:52 AM, Tyreaus said:

Consider how it plays for that person. They come into a match with mediocre parkour skills and, say, a Soma. They get a few pot shots off at some other player and end up dead from someone using "yoloswag420". What do they do then? There's no footage for them to review, they might have no idea what weapon they were killed with, and any time they do come across that person, they end up 180 headshot as soon as their aim dot touches the opponent. What is their logical recourse in that match? What's even the first step?

Dude, i was there as well, trust me. Or you can NOT trust me and instead ask for evidence, which is here:
 

Spoiler

^ February 2020 gameplay, loosely couple months after i started ploaying this gamemode. I have not started aimtraining yet.
 

^ 2019 footage of me playing lunaro, i just started playing any conclave mode back then, that was after 2 months and several major patches ago, before the "melee 3.0" garbage happened that ruined the population of long-timers here.

On 2021-11-12 at 5:52 AM, Tyreaus said:

This means that the losing player's reason for sticking around is really small. First, they're losing, very probably losing quite hard (to the point of having zero kills) because Conclave's mechanics don't provide them a ton of even lucky recourse against a high-skilled player who doesn't start sandbagging. And most people can tell when that happens and, I bet, that ends up nullifying intrinsic rewards of besting another. Then, the game obfuscates as much as it seems possible, making learning from active gameplay that much more difficult. That is topped off by minimal rewards that are heavily contrasted with the rewards they could get spending that exact same amount of time in PvE. (Or finding a better match, if they so decide to stick with Conclave)

Putting it another way:

Would an average player find it worth it to get bodied for a rate of standing gain that would take a touch under an hour to get a rank 1 bronze Conclave mod? Personally, I don't think so.

To be clear: by no means do I think bots as a punching bag would fix that whatsoever. It might provide lower skilled players with slightly better opportunities to get the drop on the more experienced. A very hard maybe. But as it is, players have all the reason to quit. I figure the least bots could do is distract them from those reasons.

Again, i have been through there, and your logic makes perfect sense, to this day i am frustrated with the state of the mode. HOWEVER, there is one thing, and this thing is that in PvP you no longer deal with very predictable bot patterns. You do not have the aboundance of mechanisms that make it easy for you to fight. You also fight against a target that tries to at least recognize your movement and can think of a way to do something about it.

In terms of searching for equal opponent, or more broadly speaking, "skill-based matchmaking" it would be a nice implementation. The low skill players stay with low skill players, and get their lucky kills in those matches + get standings. I guess entire conclave community agrees, that this "recruit conditioning" solution is a "kiss my A@312*#@(!" message from DE, and half-a**ed solution to the problem. Tremendous amount of players recognized that shieldgate is a bad thing, but guess what, nobody looks here to look at the 'efforts to balance mode', most focus on 'that one guy that "disabled universal medallions"' because somehow they "remember they were available" (which they were not). 

I do think that your view on the bots themselves is the most justified among the players that visit this side of the forum and i would like to give credit to you. I wouldn't mind to go easier on weaker players, in most cases i do. But what those people do, is they set up situations when they just stand in one corner of the map, where one player just shoots another's head for easy kills, as if it was PvE or Simulacrum farm. This ruins experience of those who want to play normally, and at the same time, when you try to play normally and kill them, you get reported for "misbehaviour" or something. There is a streamer who got reported like that by half of the clan, just because they didn't like how "he ruined" their kill farming. 

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On 2021-11-25 at 11:04 PM, Jackdarsan said:

I love these threads, always good to get the frustrations out and off our chests. 

DE wont do anything to improve this game mode since it brings no revenue for them. 

It will remain the dead end it is. 

Always funny to see people who have no interest in this part of the game tell us what DE's plans for it are.

Can you also ask your magic crystal ball about the weather on this year's christmas? That'd be much more valuable input from you.

 

On-topic:

On 2021-11-17 at 10:18 PM, Neuroszima said:

In terms of searching for equal opponent, or more broadly speaking, "skill-based matchmaking" it would be a nice implementation. The low skill players stay with low skill players, and get their lucky kills in those matches + get standings. I guess entire conclave community agrees, that this "recruit conditioning" solution is a "kiss my A@312*#@(!" message from DE, and half-a**ed solution to the problem. Tremendous amount of players recognized that shieldgate is a bad thing, but guess what, nobody looks here to look at the 'efforts to balance mode', most focus on 'that one guy that "disabled universal medallions"' because somehow they "remember they were available" (which they were not). 

I wouldn't say it's a kiss-my-ass message, however it's very obviously flawed.

But I want to stress especially this: we've been asking for better (i.e. skill-based) matchmaking already back in 2015 and they were aware of it, just see the roadmap back in the day:

Spoiler

 

 

However, there are other ways to deal with that, too. E.g.:

  • Small events are the very obvious first one. They already exist in some form (Snowday Showdown, Quick Steel, Valentine's event). With bigger populations the playing field is automatically more balanced, especially in team modes. And could be helped out even more if team balancing would simply look at the players' Conclave stats.
     
  • Variant modes with fixed gear -- like in those events or when we had Opticor instagib -- make that easier as well. Especially now that they don't really care about game balance anymore (includes PvE, too).
     
  • Additionally, they could limit the number of times -- e.g. to weekly -- a specific player can join a specific mode, just like people are restricted to once a day for Sorties. The top end of players is a small subset of the overall community. With a limited number of runs, the playing field would automatically balance itself out.
    This would also allow them to add better rewards for these just like with Sorties. It's obvious to anyone who plays it that Conclave is not very enticing from that perspective. (They should increase standing gain in any case.)
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Okay, i like lists to comment on... let's do this. 

 

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

add bots or specters to fill unfilled player slots and when a player join it removes a specter.

it wouldn't help with anything, to be honest.

in a separated universe where DE does this...

1- People would prefere to play with bots since i'm assuming that bots will act and register the same as a player. meaning that you will get Conclave points by just killing bots. 

2- Imagine getting in Conclave and you get into a match with the enemy team that is human players and you are there with only bots. yeah...not pleasant.

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

balance all weapons that were unbalanced and removed, also balance the unbalanced weapons that still remain

Some weapons are quite literally unbalanceable in a pvp format, sadly. 

 

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

listen to the conclave player base for feedback and bugs

two things came to mind reading this point..

1- What player base? jokes aside, DE should listen to an extremely slim minority to make a whole game-mode? that's recipe for disaster.

2- They already did listen to the Conclave community once. And everyone hated it....i think they learned their lesson by now. 

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

make it more rewarding to play and give people motive to play

What does this mean? 

"give people motive to play"...

it sounds an awfully lot like: "Put new stuff and weapons behind the conclave reward sistem so people will be forced to play pvp to get it."

and to that i have to say.... 

not funny transformers GIF

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

add a battle pass system

I actually had to think for like 5 minutes on how to say what i think without sounding condescending or a straight out b*tch but i can't. 

so take this in the best way possible.

...Why? this is Warframe, not Fortnite.

There already is a battle pass and it doesn't need to force people to play pvp. 

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

add ranked matches to balance match making

It's a great idea for a game intended to have ranked.

and a farming based game doesn't really need "ranked pvp modes" imho..

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

add more fun game modes. I.E necramech pvp, kdrive racing, archwing pvp, open world battle royal, railjack pvp.

Yes GIF by Brittany Broski

i like that.

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

Yes but at the same time having a team dedicated to pvp means that they're going to spend money, and a lot of it, to a game mode people don't really like or look for in the Warframe community. 

meaning that i would agree but i understand why DE is NEVER going to do that. 

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

make conclave its own dedicated region so no mater what reqion you are it will match everyone up. Also allow crossplay to conclave too

If the matchmaking is decent it doesn't really need to be a "region".

plus the whole thing with consoles. 

consoles have to change the lenguage on their consoles to change region, what region should DE add? Conclavopoli?

On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

increase the player limit to 10 or 12

it would be a nightmare. 

Imagine 12 people where...let's say 7 of them use Bramma or any other "flashy" weapon.

a crash-fest. 👀

 

to close it all off..i think i think you're a bit too focussed on making Warframe a pvp game, there are loads of games where pvp is not needed, not existent and/or a side-mode for people to do something else and spend time mindlessly. 

Warframe doesn't really need pvp. 

there are thousands of other games focussed and not focussed on it that can and will do that.

Edited by (PSN)max141064
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2 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

... 2- They already did listen to the Conclave community once. And everyone hated it....i think they learned their lesson by now. ...

Right, that's why we still have new people joining with only a melee weapon (pointed out as early as back in 2016) and still no better matchmaking than -- if you can even call it that -- Recruit Conditioning.

 

Other feedback from the community, like trying to make PvP balanced, was taken into account, though. Although they never let us tweak numbers by ourselves, and things have fallen into disarray in the meantime. Balance was decent back in ~2017.

Do you hate having fair matches? I mean, maybe you're one of the people who still thinks that PvE balance in PvP is a good thing. We had that in the Dark Sectors/Solar Rail Conflicts. If you even remember that. It was not great at all and power creep went through the roof since that time, too.

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

... Warframe doesn't really need pvp. ...

Translation: I'm not interested in PvP here, but I still think my input is valuable in this thread. Alternatively: I have too much free time and am bored enough to give my opinion on something I am actually not interested in at all.

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On 2021-11-27 at 1:15 PM, Kontrollo said:

Although they never let us tweak numbers by ourselves,

you know that this is laughable, right? 

"yeah, since nobody cares about the pvp let us be the developers even if we know nothing about how to make a videogame, we swear we will not make the thing unbalaced at all, trust us! it's not like you need years of school to even try to begin to make or change some stat in a videogame, you lost your time by doing that in your life, we will not!" 

On 2021-11-27 at 1:15 PM, Kontrollo said:

Translation: I'm not interested in PvP here, but I still think my input is valuable in this thread. Alternatively: I have too much free time and am bored enough to give my opinion on something I am actually not interested in at all.

Don't go arround telling people what you think they mean, i mean what i said. not what you think i really meant. 

the question here is...why so mad? 

because you know you can't morph Warframe in Fortnite 2.0? because you know that DE will never listen to you just because you feel entitled enough to tell what and how DE should spend their money? 

curb your passive aggressiveness, maybe people will start to take you a bit more seriously.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

you know that this is laughable, right? 

"yeah, since nobody cares about the pvp let us be the developers even if we know nothing about how to make a videogame, we swear we will not make the thing unbalaced at all, trust us! it's not like you need years of school to even try to begin to make or change some stat in a videogame, you lost your time by doing that in your life, we will not!" 

Let's put that into context again:

On 2021-11-27 at 10:40 AM, (PSN)max141064 said:

2- They already did listen to the Conclave community once. And everyone hated it....i think they learned their lesson by now. 

Were you even around when they remade Conclave into its current version? The core tenet was that things should be balanced. That was the principal community input.

Now do you agree with that, or are you opposed to that?

Because the rest is on the devs to get right, and they actually did a decent job with it, while they were still trying. Back in 2017-2018 balance was decent. But then they changed things in PvE, and because the two are not as well separated as they could be (e.g. multipliers on top of PvE stats), things slowly deteriorated -- because they also don't fix all the things anymore that they mess up.

So first of all don't blame the community for that. Second, if you actually think it should still be with PvE stats, all I have for that opinion is ridicule.

And third, there are people in the Conclave community with years of experience playing it and some do have higher-level education. We might actually be able to do a better job nowadays than the almost-nothing we get from these devs here.

 

2 hours ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

the question here is...why so mad? 

You misunderstand, I'm not mad at you. I just can't take you seriously.

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2 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Were you even around when they remade Conclave into its current version? The core tenet was that things should be balanced. That was the principal community input.

Now do you agree with that, or are you opposed to that?

Because the rest is on the devs to get right, and they actually did a decent job with it, while they were still trying. Back in 2017-2018 balance was decent. But then they changed things in PvE, and because the two are not as well separated as they could be (e.g. multipliers on top of PvE stats), things slowly deteriorated -- because they also don't fix all the things anymore that they mess up.

So first of all don't blame the community for that. Second, if you actually think it should still be with PvE stats, all I have for that opinion is ridicule.

And third, there are people in the Conclave community with years of experience playing it and some do have higher-level education. We might actually be able to do a better job nowadays than the almost-nothing we get from these devs here.

dude, you realize that you're doing all this all alone by yourself, yes? 

i didn't even said ONE point you make in this angry rant. 

it's really not that deep. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

dude, you realize that you're doing all this all alone by yourself, yes? 

i didn't even said ONE point you make in this angry rant. 

it's really not that deep. 

I'm quoting you for the third time now:

On 2021-11-27 at 10:40 AM, (PSN)max141064 said:

2- They already did listen to the Conclave community once. And everyone hated it....i think they learned their lesson by now. 

The community wanted and wants things to be balanced. You say "everyone" hated it.

It's abundantly clear you have no clue what you're talking about. And trust me when I say: you're not alone. We've had scores of people with that opinion here in Conclave feedback. And many more on Reddit, too.

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14 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The community wanted and wants things to be balanced. You say "everyone" hated it.

And i was talking about the Universal medallion and the guy that convinced Steve to not let us use them in the Conclave market. 

you didn't even understand what i was talking about.... DUDE. lol

you understand now that you're doing all of this all alone with you and yourself? 

Have a snickers.

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12 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

And i was talking about the Universal medallion and the guy that convinced Steve to not let us use them in the Conclave market. 

you didn't even understand what i was talking about.... DUDE. lol

you understand now that you're doing all of this all alone with you and yourself? 

Have a snickers.

You wrote what you wrote and I understood it just fine. Fact is, you don't know what you're talking about.

Have you even played Conclave for any amount of time? If yes, what were your, say, top three grievances with it? Because I'm pretty sure I can point to a thread or a post in this forum section where people from the Conclave community have talked about how to improve things.

 

By the way, if you're going to move the goalposts and blame it on the twitter guy -- how far back is that now, over two years? Way to ride out the scapegoat train there. I'm sure you're also staunchly opposed to what he suggested in his response to Steve:

0CLA7bm.png

And by the way, he was not speaking for the Conclave community there, either. We had discussions on that, too, and opinions were on a wide spectrum of for and against it. But last I checked, the Reddit witch hunt against the dude was still going even years after the fact.

Edited by Kontrollo
typo
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I think one of the reasons why it never gets much attention now is the standing gain, it's way too low, considering the players you're typically up against now.

 

I CAN earn 3k standing per match, by cheesing the absolute crap out of it with saryn, tigris and castanas, but that's not fair to anyone, but if I use 'regular' weapons, I barely crack 1k if I do well, which is hard since no one plays on the oceania server, meaning I need to deal with constant 300ms delay on everything I do.

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idk why almost everyone on the forum pretends to have done anything possible for more standing gain and complains cuz the regulars know how to deal with cheese by now instead of climbing the ladder legit while maxing out the bar over and over again in no time...👀

 

I mean for some reason you get to see lots of hardcore cheesing newbees who even give each other a hard time with all these exploits while none of them has the knowledge or experience to use or counter that stuff effectively... Seems like they'd put more effort into breaking the game half assed and complaining about slow progression than playing and understanding it.

You know what Conclave Standing is good for? Free relic packs.

 

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On 2021-09-12 at 5:36 PM, (PSN)ExcaliburSpecter said:

1) add bots or specters to fill unfilled player slots and when a player join it removes a specter.

2) balance all weapons that were unbalanced and removed, also balance the unbalanced weapons that still remain

3) listen to the conclave player base for feedback and bugs

4) make it more rewarding to play and give people motive to play

5) add a battle pass system

6) add ranked matches to balance match making

7) add more fun game modes. I.E necramech pvp, kdrive racing, archwing pvp, open world battle royal, railjack pvp.

8) have a dedicated team to pvp side of things so you have time to work on both pve and pvp

9) make conclave its own dedicated region so no mater what reqion you are it will match everyone up. Also allow crossplay to conclave too

10) increase the player limit to 10 or 12

 

1) if bots we'd need improved specter AI that simulates player behavior aswell. Then still... for some they might be a seemingly unbeatable foe while others farm them with ease. If they'd give rep DE had to tweak the standing gain or create a flexible difficulty somehow, but what would be fit as parameters?

 

2) I agree. Since poe launch there wasn't much done for that anymore while lots of pve reworks bleeded over unbalanced sadly.

 

3) I agree. We even used to have a couple gotl (when that was still a thing) who'd foreward urgent balance matters and glitches directly to DE. And the forum used to be of good value for all kinds of feedback. The current problem is that DE does not work on Conclave for the past ~4 years beside some tiny sporadic random things every 10th full moon.

 

4) With the current state one might not believe it, but Conclave used to flourish even without the Syndicate. What made many regular players quit was the mentioned abandonment and the resulting bugs and unpolished reworks that caused lots of grieve. Meanwhile new Conclave players have a hard time finding matches since the numbers drastically thinned out over the years.

 

5) That'll be one motive for the 4th point. We already have Nightwave. While some challenges (e.g. the ones that require movement utilization) are already doable in pvp they're usually the small untempting ones. Maybe DE could create a small set of extra Conclave challenges or include already existing Conclave challenges that give a bit more Nightwave points or create more high paying Nightwave challenges one can fulfill in Conclave aswell and give all of them an indicator for that purpose.

 

6) A ranked system would be interesting. The current "Recruit Conditioning" system is just tied to Syndicate progression and doesn't reflect a players skill tier at all. Its not really serving its purpose either since some players refuse to rank up so they can farm new players with ease and to avoid the regulars who play outside of rc. If we get a ranked mode one could tie the bot's standing value and difficulty to the rank you achieved. It wouldn't come without flaws or loopholes and a balance pass would definitely be needed, but DE could set an incentive for players to play it and rank up that way.

 

7) Those gamemodes get asked for every now and then, but I don't see them improving Conclave's state beside a short hype balloon that poofs as fast as it came to be. Imho DE should come back to the main game modes and fix things there first and if its done well they still can expand to new pvp projects. Another question would be if and how much standing those modes give compared to the main modes and how they'd implement them. Weekly rotations would be fun without draining out the player count to far. The balance system for each mode and the variety within one is another thing... We used to have a placeholder Opticor Variant insta gib mode and Variant events back in the days and they used to be liked by quite a lot of players as another example. DE could bring those back aswell.

 

8) Big YES! Thats basically what we need to drag Conclave out of the swamp again. The team doesn't even have to be big. Just enough to deal with rebalancing reworks for Conclave (since its code is tied to the pve code and balanced through own multipliers atm), implementing + balancing new things regularly and staying in touch with the community mutually. The look out would be great since one could clearify the current misunderstandings and gossip, host ingame tournaments + events easily and keep the playerbase engaged that way.

 

9) We've been asking for a server browser and thus a change to the current matching system for years. At the moment we have about 40ish distinct matching pools spread across each region and game mode and rc on/off. Additonally the ping limit, server priority, having multiple servers and lobbies running within the same region and connection bugs keep preventing players to find matches through queuing up normally without the friend list or /join playername comand. With a server browser one could see the full ongoing and private lobbies and servers, the ping and maybe even the players in it and average rank (if we get that ranking system) for each game mode. Fact is the current struggle for new or unfamiliar players to find matches is part of the toxicity problem towards Conclave and has to be handled somehow.

 

10) Hm yes and no.. Many of the maps are designed to fit 8 players max and even then at lower player count the spawns can get funny and create a lot of unnecessary cluster#*!% situations... However I remember the early big Cephalon Capture maps before they got trimmed. They were pretty big and could fit that player count. Having them aviable for the other game modes again would be a blast tbh. DE could add map expansions to the current existing maps for the bigger player count aswell. Would we want to unify that across every map and game mode then? Or keep both as seperated options and make it an inclusive search option for the server browser?

 

 

Down to the bottom line we need DE back at work on pvp again before anything to be frank.

Edited by Loxyen
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On 2021-12-03 at 11:54 PM, Loxyen said:

...

I mean for some reason you get to see lots of hardcore cheesing newbees who even give each other a hard time with all these exploits while none of them has the knowledge or experience to use or counter that stuff effectively... Seems like they'd put more effort into breaking the game half assed and complaining about slow progression than playing and understanding it.

...

That's no surprise, really.

There are people who don't know what is and isn't affected by a bug and they understandably gravitate towards the things that give them results -- or their enemies, and then they try it out themselves.

Some of them can be convinced, others get rather rude and keep abusing these things. Just had that experience again this weekend.

 

It's on the devs to bring it back into proper shape. But flipping switches on buggy and broken things is "demonstrably" just as hard as adjusting multipliers, or we wouldn't have this mess we're in for months and years.

😒

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В 14.12.2021 в 02:44, Kontrollo сказал:

There are people who don't know what is and isn't affected by a bug and they understandably gravitate towards the things that give them results -- or their enemies, and then they try it out themselves.

Dude they know what stuff rocks right after one match.

If you (not you personally) bring brass or led knuckles in the fist fight - don't let them survive, or next fight they'll inevitably bring a damn howitzer out of simple spite.

Idk why I got back to this dumb forum.

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On 2022-01-03 at 10:54 AM, Pinegulf said:

Would  'Play 3 conclave missions' to Night Wave to-do list help?

pretty sure that would cause riots and a massive increase in boosters/leechers.

forcing pve players into playing the conclave is not the solution here; sure you're not hard forcing them into playing pvp like what stalker mode was meant to be, but it sure would feel like it to those looking to speedrun or max out their nightwave standing.

anyways the way i'd want to conclave to be revived is to simply remove region barriers, meaning everyone has access to the same pool of instances without needing to check every region in the game.

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23 hours ago, Refticus said:

pretty sure that would cause riots and a massive increase in boosters/leechers.

forcing pve players into playing the conclave is not the solution here; sure you're not hard forcing them into playing pvp like what stalker mode was meant to be, but it sure would feel like it to those looking to speedrun or max out their nightwave standing.

anyways the way i'd want to conclave to be revived is to simply remove region barriers, meaning everyone has access to the same pool of instances without needing to check every region in the game.

That proposal was already made back when they introduced Nightwave and in the discussion it was not well received.

As a result, it was amended into an alternative proposal: Being able to choose between either a Conclave challenge or a regular PvE challenge (not both). See here:

But even after that, there were people still in opposition, so it's clear that some in this community just do it out of spite, not because there's a good reason against it.

 

An alternative would be to give a slight amount of Nightwave standing for completing Conclave challenges and weekly missions. So there's a bit of progress that can be made there, too.

 

Removing region barriers is a good idea. It'd only also need to show connection quality and let us choose between active games -- which basically something that had already been proposed back in 2016: a server browser.

Edited by Kontrollo
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4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Removing region barriers is a good idea. It'd only also need to show connection quality and let us choose between active games -- which basically something that had already been proposed back in 2016: a server browser.

as much as i want a server browser, that would require DE to care enough to develop the UI and technology behind one compared to just a simple modification to existing code.

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  • 2 months later...

Im reviving this thread because it has tons of good feedbacks. I want to add, What about an First Person View only in conclave (with toggle option)?

I just realize the difference between WF conclave and other popular FPS games is WF conclave is 3rd person. Most high mobility FPS competitive is using FPV. Even Unreal tournament made by DE is in FPV. While I was playing around i felt something was off and its the view. My character use so much of the screen it is quite distracting. 

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