Natural Talent could be an exilus mod

[Ifeanyi]

Please make "Natural Talent" and exilus mod. This will bring it in-line with the other casting speed mod "Speed Drift".
I think this'll be a nice QOL improvement for frames like Harrow especially with his prime coming up.
Thanks.

[Ifeanyi]

Would be nice if "Natural Talent" was an exilus mod. This will bring it in-line with the other casting speed mod "Agility Drift".
I think this'll be a nice QOL improvement for frames like Harrow especially with his prime coming up.
 

[Tsoe]

well we have speed drift

 

natural talent as exilus would OP it rise up dps too much

[Artekkor]

Not gonna happen. The general rule for exilus mods is that they don't increase combat efficiency directly, or increase them by very small margins that don't make much difference (i.e. 15% power strength).

Natural Talent is a pretty powerful mod, capable of greatly improving DPS on nuke-capable warframes that spam their abilities. Can't allow that.
Best thing we can hope for is that DE will make a new mod that provides a far weaker version of the bonus. Like 5-10% at best.

EDIT: Apparently, we already have that: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Speed_Drift

So yeah. Use that instead, Want that sweet 50%? Use a proper mod slot.

[Berzerkules]

Would be a nice qol but then you'd have to slot psf in a regular mod slot. 

[Ifeanyi]

54 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

Not gonna happen. The general rule for exilus mods is that they don't increase combat efficiency directly, or increase them by very small margins that don't make much difference (i.e. 15% power strength).

Natural Talent is a pretty powerful mod, capable of greatly improving DPS on nuke-capable warframes that spam their abilities. Can't allow that.
Best thing we can hope for is that DE will make a new mod that provides a far weaker version of the bonus. Like 5-10% at best.

EDIT: Apparently, we already have that: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Speed_Drift

So yeah. Use that instead, Want that sweet 50%? Use a proper mod slot.

That's fair. But I'm curious, which nuke frames do you think people would opt for natural talent on instead of say cunning drift or Primed Sure Footed. Saryn? her 4 takes like a second to cast and even then more range or slightly higher power strength would be best imo. Volt? his 4 falls off quickly and again, more range or strength is another contender.

Also, the casting exilus mod I meant earlier was speed drift. Mixed up the name with agility drift.

[Ifeanyi]

46 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Would be a nice qol but then you'd have to slot psf in a regular mod slot. 

I don't use that on Harrow nor on a lot of frames 🙂

Though that would give people more choice in picking exilus

[Berzerkules]

Just now, Ifeanyi said:

I don't use that on Harrow nor on a lot of frames 🙂

Psf and natural talent goes on about 75% of all my frames. 

[Tesseract7777]

Oh this topic again. 

No. 

 

[Lutesque]

The problem with Harrow is how Rigid his build is and you really can't change it all that much... Plus the unique effect that Natural Talent has on Thurible makes it a Mandatory mod...

[Ifeanyi]

27 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

The problem with Harrow is how Rigid his build is and you really can't change it all that much... Plus the unique effect that Natural Talent has on Thurible makes it a Mandatory mod...

That's why I think making Natural Talent an exilus would be great for amazing
Would allow more flexibility with his build

Or if DE would give his prime +25% casting speed, That'd be great too 😅

All in all, these are just my thoughts and hopes as a fan of Harrow

[Artekkor]

32 минуты назад, Ifeanyi сказал:

I'm curious, which nuke frames do you think people would opt for natural talent on instead of say cunning drift or Primed Sure Footed. Saryn? her 4 takes like a second to cast and even then more range or slightly higher power strength would be best imo. Volt? his 4 falls off quickly and again, more range or strength is another contender.

I don't play other frames much. Rhino main and all that... But i remember that Limbo gets a lot of value from this mod because all his casting animations take bazzilion years and the mod is basically a giant QoL on his gameplay loop, because you stop spending all your time in casting animations.

Otherwise it really helps on frames that love to spam abilities constantly and have long casting animations or those who use ability charging mechanics. Lads such as Oberon, Hydroid, Nekros, Harrow...

[Ifeanyi]

1 minute ago, Artekkor said:

I don't play other frames much. Rhino main and all that... But i remember that Limbo gets a lot of value from this mod because all his casting animations take bazzilion years and the mod is basically a giant QoL on his gameplay loop, because you stop spending all your time in casting animations.

Otherwise it really helps on frames that love to spam abilities constantly and have long casting animations or those who use ability charging mechanics. Lads such as Oberon, Hydroid, Nekros, Harrow...

None of the frames you listed are considered "nukes" though
and Harrow is the primary reason I suggested this and he's a support

[Ifeanyi]

38 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Psf and natural talent goes on about 75% of all my frames. 

Cool 👍
Love how this game gives us so much flexibility in modding
Would love if the op got added for even more flexibility 😅

[Artekkor]

2 минуты назад, Ifeanyi сказал:

None of the frames you listed are considered "nukes" though
and Harrow is the primary reason I suggested this and he's a support

Not super nukes, but they do have nuke-like capabilities. And just ability to deal damage isn't the only value here.
Oberon can spam 1 and 4, 3 also takes inappropriately long to cast, which is valuable too as it can save someone's life.
Hydroid doesn't "nuke" but he does deals damage with his abilities, especially if they are fully charged. And of them 2 can (and should be) charged for maximum effect so natural talent helps a lot at improving the ease of their use and overall make Hydroid less of a slog to play with.
Nekros isn't a nuker, but his 3 and 4 take forever to cast and he can easily die while casting them because he just stands still for like 2 seconds. Extra casting time can literally save his life.

Basically what i'm trying to say it: its not even that the higher casting speed allows you to spam DPS abilities. Its that you are not wasting time on casting animations. Because with a lot of these warframes - their casting animations take you out of other gameplay abilities such as ability to move or (more importantly) shoot.
That 1 second Nekros saves on his casting animation is 1 extra second where he can do other valuable things like dodging a bombard rocket that's about to oneshot him or take a shot himself. That's a lot of value.

Its the same reason why i remember Limbo so painfully. Playing him was a pain in the ass because majority of his gameplay time is you watching casting animations. NT literally gives the man freedom to actually play the game he's in.
Although frankly i would argue that its a fault of his design to begin with and that he needs to be changed, but until then...

[Galuf]

I'm personnally against it. This mod doesn't fit the exilus theme to me. It is a raw stats mod. It is not because cast speed doesn't fit in the character sheet with power/range/efficiency that it is not as impactfull. Maybe in a distant future is warframe starts encapsulating animation cancelling mechanics, wich would be a gameplay improvement that some players may not want to engage with, because the mod would then be a "failsafe" for relaxed players. As of right now, it is extremly powerfull, and giving it the exilus tag would be unjustified power creep.

[Ifeanyi]

1 minute ago, Artekkor said:

Not super nukes, but they do have nuke-like capabilities. And just ability to deal damage isn't the only value here.
Oberon can spam 1 and 4, 3 also takes inappropriately long to cast, which is valuable too as it can save someone's life.
Hydroid doesn't "nuke" but he does deals damage with his abilities, especially if they are fully charged. And of them 2 can (and should be) charged for maximum effect so natural talent helps a lot at improving the ease of their use and overall make Hydroid less of a slog to play with.
Nekros isn't a nuker, but his 3 and 4 take forever to cast and he can easily die while casting them because he just stands still for like 2 seconds. Extra casting time can literally save his life.

Basically what i'm trying to say it: its not even that the higher casting speed allows you to spam DPS abilities. Its that you are not wasting time on casting animations. Because with a lot of these warframes - their casting animations take you out of other gameplay abilities such as ability to move or (more importantly) shoot.
That 1 second Nekros saves on his casting animation is 1 extra second where he can do other valuable things like dodging a bombard rocket that's about to oneshot him or take a shot himself. That's a lot of value.

Its the same reason why i remember Limbo so painfully. Playing him was a pain in the ass because majority of his gameplay time is you watching casting animations. NT literally gives the man freedom to actually play the game he's in.
Although frankly i would argue that its a fault of his design to begin with and that he needs to be changed, but until then...

Oberon's 1 is insanely fast, his 3 is a drain ability meaning you only need to cast it once and his 4 suspends enemies in the air during its cast saving you from any danger
Agreed on Hydroid, this would be a great QOL improvement for him 🙂
Nekros's 3 is also a drain so 1 cast, his 4 I agree on so more improvements for him
Limbo's 4 cast speed imo is conpletely negated by the fact that you can cast in while in the rift so he's not in any danger while casting his 4.

Yes the higher casting speed would means you'll save time but as you've said, if the ability to deal damage isn't a value here, then why should this change not the allowed?
I can't see how it would break the game, all the frames abilities you've listed sound like QOL fixes and not straight up buffs.
Also take into account, making natural talent an exilus won't just make it a priority pick on all those frames.
Like take nekros's 4 which you mentioned, I assume you listed it in regards to his "shield of shadows" augment. Remember you'd need 214% power strength t get the max dr on that mod. This means there's still some restrictions to what mods you can have on and will make the choice for NT a more difficult one. Hydroid's 4 you mentioned can be cast while he's in puddle completely negating any damage you'd take while casting. And let's not forget this whole "aoe meta" everyone says we're in ( I don't agree with that anyway) where Primed sure footed is like priority 1 on exilus. So players will still be faced with a choice of exilus.

[Ifeanyi]

2 minutes ago, Galuf said:

I'm personnally against it. This mod doesn't fit the exilus theme to me. It is a raw stats mod. It is not because cast speed doesn't fit in the character sheet with power/range/efficiency that it is not as impactfull. Maybe in a distant future is warframe starts encapsulating animation cancelling mechanics, wich would be a gameplay improvement that some players may not want to engage with, because the mod would then be a "failsafe" for relaxed players. As of right now, it is extremly powerfull, and giving it the exilus tag would be unjustified power creep.

Understandable.
You said the mod doesn't fit the exilus theme? I mean Speed drift exists. Just curious
I'm also curious on the "power creep", what frame/frames would this change make so broken that most players will opt for using NT in exilus as opposed to other mods

[Galuf]

il y a 8 minutes, Ifeanyi a dit :

Understandable.
You said the mod doesn't fit the exilus theme? I mean Speed drift exists. Just curious
I'm also curious on the "power creep", what frame/frames would this change make so broken that most players will opt for using NT in exilus as opposed to other mods

Basically on any caster frame on a static map type. Gara(it's sick on Gara), Ember, Nidus, ... Speed drift is a drift mod, it has 2 stats.

Not gonna lie, putting this mod on an exilus slot would be imho a noobtrap most of the time anyway so it would not even be a big deal, people are still not printing in their brain that it is either a parkour mod or primed sure footed for a solid 90% of the startchart anyway. However on a design and balance PoV, it would make absolutely no sense to me. You can thank your average wf content creators showcasing crappy builds on youtube to pay their rent.

It's my opinion tho, but let's say that my biaises are VERY strong on this one, I sometimes doubt myself but not much this time :)

[Artekkor]

4 минуты назад, Ifeanyi сказал:

Yes the higher casting speed would means you'll save time but as you've said, if the ability to deal damage isn't a value here, then why should this change not the allowed?
I can't see how it would break the game, all the frames abilities you've listed sound like QOL fixes and not straight up buffs.

Well, that's the issue - its arbitrary and warframe dependant.
For some warframes - its a simple, but giant QoL that just makes their life easier. For others though...

As long as there is even ONE frame who gets his ability-DPS improved by 50% by using this mod - we can't allow this mod to be exilus.
It doesn't even matter if ability already takes half a second to cast - it it can be cast in a quarter of a second, then that's by definition a DPS increase of 50%, and that's that.

The more nuanced approach would be to manually go through every single frame, evaluate how much using NT matters to them individually and then decide whether it should be exilus or not for that specific frame. But...
1) That's lot of work
2) Its arbitrary to hell and back and people will argue and debate forever why their favourite frame doesn't have the privilege of exilus NT
3) With how much devs love to constantly rework warframes, change core gameplay mechanic and overall just shift parts and gears around - its just too much maintenance to constantly monitor if some warframe just became broken OP with NT due to a small ability change or augment introduction.

The rules for exilus are a simple principle: if it CAN increase DPS in a major way - then it cannot be exilus.

It's the same principle why "+Magazine Capacity" and "+Reload Speed" mods are not exilus either.
As long as there is that one gun that only has 2 bullets and reloads for 3 seconds - both mods a direct and major improvement on such weapon's performance, and therefore they can't be exilus.

[Ifeanyi]

16 minutes ago, Galuf said:

Basically on any caster frame on a static map type. Gara(it's sick on Gara), Ember, Nidus, ... Speed drift is a drift mod, it has 2 stats.

Not gonna lie, putting this mod on an exilus slot would be imho a noobtrap most of the time anyway so it would not even be a big deal, people are still not printing in their brain that it is either a parkour mod or primed sure footed for a solid 90% of the startchart anyway. However on a design and balance PoV, it would make absolutely no sense to me. You can thank your average wf content creators showcasing crappy builds on youtube to pay their rent.

It's my opinion tho, but let's say that my biaises are VERY strong on this one, I sometimes doubt myself but not much this time :)

Fair enough. Gara is actually a very solid example I didn't account for.
Thanks for your time 

[Ifeanyi]

11 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

As long as there is even ONE frame who gets his ability-DPS improved by 50% by using this mod - we can't allow this mod to be exilus.
It doesn't even matter if ability already takes half a second to cast - it it can be cast in a quarter of a second, then that's by definition a DPS increase of 50%, and that's that.

Fair enough. I can concede to this.
Thanks for your time.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, Ifeanyi said:

Please make "Natural Talent" and exilus mod. This will bring it in-line with the other casting speed mod "Speed Drift".
I think this'll be a nice QOL improvement for frames like Harrow especially with his prime coming up.
Thanks.

Wouldn't help Harrow at all. Natural Talent and Speed Drift are both mandatory AFAIC. 😉

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

I don't play other frames much. Rhino main and all that... But i remember that Limbo gets a lot of value from this mod because all his casting animations take bazzilion years and the mod is basically a giant QoL on his gameplay loop, because you stop spending all your time in casting animations

Well yes sure but Limbo also has pretty damn high base Duration on his Abilities so once you you got your 4 and you 2 Up.... You won't have to cast anything for 36 more seconds making the Cast Time a non issue.... If however you are running a Low Duration Rift Torrent Build then yeah.... Cast Speed is pretty much mandatory for that build.... He'll die without it.

1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

Nekros isn't a nuker, but his 3 and 4 take forever to cast and he can easily die while casting them because he just stands still for like 2 seconds. Extra casting time can literally save his life.

I disagree with This one because 3 Only needs to be cast once and 4 only has a long casting animation on the first Cast...as long as you have 7 Shadows then the Recasting Animation is 75% Faster...

1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

That 1 second Nekros saves on his casting animation is 1 extra second where he can do other valuable things like dodging a bombard rocket that's about to oneshot him or take a shot himself. That's a lot of value.

That's not something I've ever had to worry about With Nekros' because  the Bombard wouldn't be Targetting him... They would be targeting his Shadows.... They make for Great Meat Shields.

1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

 

Its the same reason why i remember Limbo so painfully. Playing him was a pain in the ass because majority of his gameplay time is you watching casting animations. NT literally gives the man freedom to actually play the game he's in.
Although frankly i would argue that its a fault of his design to begin with and that he needs to be changed, but until then...

Sounds like your Limbo is lacking alot Of Duration ... Here's how I play Limbo:

Press 2

Press 4

Press 3....

Wait 30 Seconds...

Press 2...

Wait 10 Seconds...

Press 3....

Wait 30 Seconds....

Press 2...

Wait 10 Seconds....

Press 3.....

See I only ever have to cast Cataclysm A Single Time....  Which is his Longest Animation.... I can spend the rest of The Mission abusing the Fact That Rift Surge works even Better than Cataclysm because it Doesn't Shrink over Time.... Alot of people don't even realise they are playing Limbo Wrong.... You actually can use Max Range versus Corpus Enemies if you want to.... Rift Surge allows you to do that.... Albeit it gets Dicey getting that loop going at first.

Honestly I don't even need Natural Talent on limbo because Rift Surge and Stasis are Fine... Only Cataclysm takes 3 Years to Cast....

I actually spend more time Idling around than I do Staring at Casting Animations because like I said earlier.... His base Duration is pretty damn high...if you want to see a Warframe who actually does spend all their time Casting and Recasting Abilities then look no further than Trinity.... Oh boy she's got Duration issues for Days....😱

1 hour ago, Galuf said:

I'm personnally against it. This mod doesn't fit the exilus theme to me. It is a raw stats mod. It is not because cast speed doesn't fit in the character sheet with power/range/efficiency that it is not as impactfull. Maybe in a distant future is warframe starts encapsulating animation cancelling mechanics, wich would be a gameplay improvement that some players may not want to engage with, because the mod would then be a "failsafe" for relaxed players. As of right now, it is extremly powerfull, and giving it the exilus tag would be unjustified power creep.

Can't be that powerful....I rarely ever see it on Builds that aren't Loki or Harrow.... And in those two Frames it's Mandatory (in Loki's case it's only mandatory because he can Spare a Slot)....

53 minutes ago, Galuf said:

Basically on any caster frame on a static map type. Gara(it's sick on Gara), Ember, Nidus, ... Speed drift is a drift mod, it has 2 stats.

I've played Gara for quite a bit.... I've valued Handspring Significantly more than Natural Talent simply because all it takes is for a single Ancient Disruptor to hook you to Break your Splinter Storm Combo... Natural Talent won't Help you if they Drain your Energy but Handspring Will because you can get up Faster Drop a Pizza Real Quick and the Press 4 to Refresh your Duration.... This is literally the difference between wether or not your Run in arbitrations will last 1 Hour or 2 Hours or More because Knock Downs can kill Gara If they happen at the wrong time...

I don't play Ember so I guess for her it's OP....

Nidus is....well... Nidus.... The only Ability he can Spam is the first one.... I don't know if that's good or not because I don't play Nidus...

44 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

As long as there is even ONE frame who gets his ability-DPS improved by 50% by using this mod - we can't allow this mod to be exilus.
It doesn't even matter if ability already takes half a second to cast - it it can be cast in a quarter of a second, then that's by definition a DPS increase of 50%, and that's that.

For which Warframe Though ?

DE has done a good job of Eliminating most of the Abilities that get better the more Times you spam them ...

It's why Natural Talent is Pointless on Equinox and Saryn because  they need to Ramp up their Damage before pressing 4....simply Spamming 4 just Tickles most high level enemies....

Volt on the other hand I know very little about How his nuking works exactly other than it scales by Range and Number of Enemies Affected.... In which case Natural Talent might be Busted for him....

Khora can Whip Faster I guess but you won't have any Aggro Deflectors if you do that...something I didn't realise was important until I tried to do Kuva Survival all by my lonesome.

Am I forgetting anyone ? Banch ?

Banch is Made out of paper.... Even with Shield Gate and Rolling Guard she can get Screwed Pretty Hard if she doesn't find Cover in between Her Resonance Shenanigans...

44 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

The more nuanced approach would be to manually go through every single frame, evaluate how much using NT matters to them individually and then decide whether it should be exilus or not for that specific frame. But...
1) That's lot of work
2) Its arbitrary to hell and back and people will argue and debate forever why their favourite frame doesn't have the privilege of exilus NT
3) With how much devs love to constantly rework warframes, change core gameplay mechanic and overall just shift parts and gears around - its just too much maintenance to constantly monitor if some warframe just became broken OP with NT due to a small ability change or augment introduction.

Here's the thing though... If there was such a Warframe that could be broken by having Natural Talent in the Exilus Slot... Then that Warframe would already be pretty Damn close to broken already in the current Meta.... And the only Warframe I can think of right now who is that close to being Busted is Octavia.... Who doesn't use Natural Talent at all... I mean... What's she gonna do... Tea bag faster ?

I mean... I haven't played Every Single Warframe yet.... But I doubt any of them Hold a a candle to Octavia... Natural Talent won't even put them in the same league as her...

50 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

The rules for exilus are a simple principle: if it CAN increase DPS in a major way - then it cannot be exilus.

Doesn't Preparation Increase Sevagoth's DPS in a Major Way ? 🤔 Its the Only example that comes to my mind.

53 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

 

It's the same principle why "+Magazine Capacity" and "+Reload Speed" mods are not exilus either.
As long as there is that one gun that only has 2 bullets and reloads for 3 seconds - both mods a direct and major improvement on such weapon's performance, and therefore they can't be exilus

Yeah but with the Release of Gun Arcanes isn't this Stance Pointless now ... Merciless gives you 30% Reload Speed without Taking up any of your Default Slots... That being said it does take up your Arcane Slot so it's not exactly Free.... And it also turns out there is more than enough reason to use the Other two Arcanes aswell....Dead Head is good against Liches/Sisters and Dexterity is good for Glaives Rocking Combo Fury especially if you have a Riven like me so that means you can essentially put on Combo Fury with out having to give something else up..... So you can just ignore this whole part 😝.

50 minutes ago, Ifeanyi said:

Fair enough. Gara is actually a very solid example I didn't account for.
Thanks for your time 

I accounted for her.... I wouldn't give up Handspring for Natural Talent on her....

Infact Natural Talent might actually be more detrimental than people realise because the increased Spam that mod gives you is going to Affect your Energy....

Also it would render any Duration mods you have on kinda pointless since you would be spamming Mass Vitrify faster than one 8th of your Splinter Storm's Duration.... Ofcourse you can take Those off and replace them with more Strength and Range but now you run the risk of that Afforementioned knock down secenario I mentioned before...

 

Remember Gara doesn't just Scale well with the Enemies... With The Right Riven she can actually Outscale them too so really there's no Reason to use Natural Talent to spam....I suppose Natural Talent is good for those Situations where you are doing so well that you get bored and Splinter Storm falls off while you almost Doze Off hence natural Talent allows you to play Catch Up more Consistently....

This Actually Happened to me once... I built up an Hour long Splinter Storm Combo and Dropped it by Accident... So I plonked down 10 Energy Restores and Spammed Mass Vitrify and got back up to One Shot Territory again in 5 Minutes.... I wasn't even using a Riven back then....

59 minutes ago, Ifeanyi said:

Fair enough. I can concede to this.
Thanks for your time.

I don't 😤 HUAH !!!!

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Wouldn't help Harrow at all. Natural Talent and Speed Drift are both mandatory AFAIC. 😉

I actually did Attempt to play Harrow without Natural Talent.... It's certainly Doable.... But it limits how you can use Covenant and Thurible and puts more Pressure on you to land at least one or Two Headshots before regular Body Shots are Safe again....

 

[Voltage]

Given this has been a suggestion since Exilus Mods came to be in U17, I don't think we will see it happen.