Is it just me, or is DE making the game worse instead of better?

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

58 minutes ago, Sadakomara said:

The game keeps getting better and better for me. It's almost crazy how much more I like it after each update. Even experiencing some frustration during a couple of the New War missions, it didn't impact my overall enjoyment of the game; quite the opposite. Every time I poke around I find a new rabbit hole to explore. Really at this point I think I'd have to rate this as the best game I've ever played. Nerfs here or bugs there don't bother me; I barely notice. 

We need more like you

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

To be fair, they also are often fixing many bugs too. Patchnotes usually have more bug fixes then anything else. 

Granted its anecdotal, but it does seem like a harsh take. Ill argue that many things changed are for the better. For example, The changes to support frames/healing abilities and objectives for one. Yes, vazarin got hit hard for healing objectives, but now every frame minus garuda can heal objectives. 

This is disingenuous. In the past we used corrosive and slash. Thats it. Slash for corpus, corrosive for grineer/corrupted, and either worked fine for infested. Gas was used when it was broken with stealth multipliers and Mag bubbles. I remembered being laughed at for my perma Cc blast ignis build. Viral was a meme status, because even half enemy hp was worthless compared to the 100% strip corrosive gave, and minus the hema no weapon could do both corrosive/viral. Toxin and Cold were weak damage types, and Rad was occasionally used but very rare. 

Slash was given a slap on the wrist. It no longer bypassing shields is meaningless when toxin got heavily buffed to ignore shields instead. Corrosive was nerfed, blast was gutted, cold got buffed, and as mentioned toxin got a great change. 
 

Because Cold, blast, radiation and gas were rarely used, theyre changes are neutral to gameplay. Regardless of the changes, they stayed at the bottom of the pack (blast/cold) or as niche use cases (gas/rad). 
 

Viral skyrocketed in use, heat got a nice change and toxin too. Corrosive was nerfed, and slash was nerfed but still top tier. Id say we got a net +2 statuses then. 
 

Also i dont remember cold increasing status duration, and even if it did the only status effect of note was corrosive, which was permanent. 

You can still open enemies to finishers

Barely, and it was only with mods, no base attack speeds were reduced 

And yet melee still reigns supreme with weapons like the Glaive and Stropha. Only max range AoE kill faster and only for a bit before that damage falls off. 

Examples?

Yea Im not personally a fan of many of the stances changes (rip wise razor). I don’t hate the thought process behind the changes, and some stance are still quite good (like tempo royale), but as a whole some of the decisions made were lacking. I don’t notice the LoS changes tbh, but I also mainly use short range weapons so maybe thats why. also range was a whole was increased for weapons, and reach was made a flat value which was a good thing for ~95% if weapons. 

yes. Again, check patch notes. More bug fixes then anything else. 

How? 

I dont remember this issue but I havent used a glaive in a while so id have to pick then back up and try. 

This annoys me heavily as well, especially stances like crimson dervish or any polearm. 

When they redid stances they wanted then to be always moving forward, either by player choice or stance choice. Idk why tbh, I think neutrals should also let you stand still to an extent. 

*looks at daggers*

I asked whether they fixed any bugs melee had - because there are a lot, some of them quite gamebreaking, that have been in the game for 1+ years.

The change to objective healing makes everybody heal about 50hp per second. That's fuc#@X* useless. Enemies that deal 50 dps are irrelevant.

That's just wrong. Viral was always good, Toxin got nerfed, not buffed. Rad was always the preferred proc against Infested, and the only damage type against status immune Alloy Armor.

On cold, again wrong. Slash/Cold was a viable alternative to Slash/Viral, using one less mod slot for the same damage (over 2x the time though), with the added benefit of being more reliable than Viral (if the proc dropped before death, the enemy would get their health back).

No melee stance enables finishers anymore. This feature was deleted. The Skiajati grants 5 seconds of invisibility on finishers, and one of it's stances would fluidly transition into a finisher. Not anymore. In addition, enemies open to finishers also take stealth multiplier.

You can no longer run Berserker and Primed Fury together - which you absolutely want to do on a slow weapon. I've got a Karyst Prime (0.667 attack speed), it feels like sh@# with only Primed Fury. And, of course, when fighting a tough enemy, Boss, or after going to the next group of enemies (or after a wave has finished), you have to kill 2 enemies while suffering from absolute dogsh@# attack speed - this makes Berserker Fury essentially unusable.

I have a Stropha, any decent explosive weapon kills 10 times as fast. Glaive Prime is the best weapon in the game, and it's heavy attack (full charge) did not get nerfed at all - all of the things that did get nerfed don't apply to it in the first place.

The slide crit mod, the finisher kill mod, Berserker, etc.

Range was decreased across the board, except maybe for daggers. It was a MASSIVE nerf to any long range weapon, and some special cases like the disk thing login reward (I wish I could delete it from my inventory, just as DE effectively deleted it's functionality).

How is CO bugged? See this video (it's not the first time I reported this bug, not the second time either):

 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I asked whether they fixed any bugs melee had - because there are a lot, some of them quite gamebreaking, that have been in the game for 1+ years.

The change to objective healing makes everybody heal about 50hp per second. That's fuc#@X* useless. Enemies that deal 50 dps are irrelevant.

except anyone can heal. Its better to have anyone be able to heal the objective them lock off objective heals to purely one perk in focus. Also oberon/wisp/khora can heal based off of their normal heal speed and equinox/trinity heal 500/s. Only harrow heals 50/s. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's just wrong. Viral was always good, Toxin got nerfed, not buffed. Rad was always the preferred proc against Infested, and the only damage type against status immune Alloy Armor.

Viral was not always good. It was passable at best. Halving enemy hp was meaningless back then because their armor was so high in the first play. Toxin got buffed. There is no other way you could argue it. Straight up buff, and now it is the best damage type vs 99% of corpus. Rad was never the preferred because no one ran rad vs infested, they ran gas or heat. Rad is good vs alloy, but those are only boss fights and not normal missions, hence my niche tag on it. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

On cold, again wrong. Slash/Cold was a viable alternative to Slash/Viral, using one less mod slot for the same damage (over 2x the time though), with the added benefit of being more reliable than Viral (if the proc dropped before death, the enemy would get their health back).

Slash cold was never a thing, or if it was it was never popular. Slash viral wasnt a thing either back then, it was just slash. Slash was just THAT good. Again, no one ran viral because they were running corrosive. What was the best build for Tigris P, the de facto status applicator? Slash corrosive. Why? Because you could strip all the enemies armor in one shot and if they didnt die instantly they died the next shot. Viral couldnt do that, slash alone occasionally do it, but corrosive always did it. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

No melee stance enables finishers anymore. This feature was deleted. The Skiajati grants 5 seconds of invisibility on finishers, and one of it's stances would fluidly transition into a finisher. Not anymore. In addition, enemies open to finishers also take stealth multiplier.

You can still open enemies to finishers with timed blocks and slams, and desiccation from Inaros is helminth material if you need a build with finishers. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You can no longer run Berserker and Primed Fury together - which you absolutely want to do on a slow weapon. I've got a Karyst Prime (0.667 attack speed), it feels like sh@# with only Primed Fury. And, of course, when fighting a tough enemy, Boss, or after going to the next group of enemies (or after a wave has finished), you have to kill 2 enemies while suffering from absolute dogsh@# attack speed - this makes Berserker Fury essentially unusable.

The karyst prime is an interesting choice because it has one of the worst attack speeds in the game by miles, whereas most every other melee is fine with just a single attack speed mod. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I have a Stropha, any decent explosive weapon kills 10 times as fast. Glaive Prime is the best weapon in the game, and it's heavy attack (full charge) did not get nerfed at all - all of the things that did get nerfed don't apply to it in the first place.

My point exactly, melee was nerfed but not in a meaningful way, and again, I stated that explosives do better early but their damage is lower and falls off, whereas melee has higher damage and goes longer. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

The slide crit mod, the finisher kill mod, Berserker, etc.

Crit sliding was unhealthy for warframe, covert lethality I agree didnt need a change, berserker change is good for status, bad for crit, but with status as a whole getting buffed  (and yes, starus did get buffed, not nerfed) Id say it was a net positive. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Range was decreased across the board, except maybe for daggers. It was a MASSIVE nerf to any long range weapon, and some special cases like the disk thing login reward (I wish I could delete it from my inventory, just as DE effectively deleted it's functionality).

It was increased for every weapon but polearms and reach was made useable, again, on everything but polearms! Unless you used exclusively orthos P, then you had nothing but good things from the range changes. 

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

How is CO bugged? See this video (it's not the first time I reported this bug, not the second time either):

 

Idk if its just mobile but the link doesnt work for me

[Traumtulpe]

34 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

[...]

"On Defense Objects, Blessing restores up to 500 health over 5 seconds which does not stack with similar restoration effects.", that's 100 per second (and still useless).

Gas VS Infested? No, never ever ever. A single Toxic Ancient literally made everything (including itself) immune to Gas.

Tigris Prime with just Slash? What??? You used 4 60%60% mods to reach 100% status chance (Viral among them), after the status nerf the weapon was never used again.

Toxin was nerfed, it deals less damage versus armor and had it's duration reduced.

[(PSN)Jaytrash1]

15 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

"On Defense Objects, Blessing restores up to 500 health over 5 seconds which does not stack with similar restoration effects.", that's 100 per second (and still useless).

Gas VS Infested? No, never ever ever. A single Toxic Ancient literally made everything (including itself) immune to Gas.

Tigris Prime with just Slash? What??? You used 4 60%60% mods to reach 100% status chance (Viral among them), after the status nerf the weapon was never used again.

Toxin was nerfed, it deals less damage versus armor and had it's duration reduced.

And yet what about status effects such as Magnetic, or Electricity? I've built a magnetic/gas nami skyla melee build that has enabled me to quickly tear through corpus, and equally effective against grineer.

Perhaps other status effects should be considered for more options, especially with players that are new, or do not have prime gear.

[(PSN)Jaytrash1]

Also, I wish to share a story that makes no sense about Yareli and her Merulina ability. Do you guys believe it should be possible for a player to take 10 minutes irl in a survival mission to extract with 0% life support for that entire time? Because I was able to pull that off TWICE with yareli. If you're playing Yareli in a survival mission, hop onto Merulina, 3000-7500 bonus health, and Merulina suffocates before you do when you run out of life support. I don't know if this needs to be nerfed or buffed.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Jaytrash1 said:

And yet what about status effects such as Magnetic, or Electricity? I've built a magnetic/gas nami skyla melee build that has enabled me to quickly tear through corpus, and equally effective against grineer.

Just gonna toss it out that it’s the fact that Nami Skyla Prime is like, the 3rd or 5th best “regular” melee in the game that’s making what you’re using work.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Jaytrash1 said:

Also, I wish to share a story that makes no sense about Yareli and her Merulina ability. Do you guys believe it should be possible for a player to take 10 minutes irl in a survival mission to extract with 0% life support for that entire time?

Given that last I checked, survival instafails after 5 min at 0% life support, I don’t really believe that you got 10 min at 0% without some further proof.

[(PSN)Jaytrash1]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Just gonna toss it out that it’s the fact that Nami Skyla Prime is like, the 3rd or 5th best “regular” melee in the game that’s making what you’re using work.

Yet I don't have any prime equipment. This is the basic Nami Skyla.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)Jaytrash1 said:

Yet I don't have any prime equipment. This is the basic Nami Skyla.

If you're using basic Nami Skyla then you probably haven't completed the basic starchart. That means you're playing where modding is basically irrelevant beyond "does this mod add raw damage?"

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Jaytrash1 said:

I've built a magnetic/gas nami skyla melee build that has enabled me to quickly tear through corpus, and equally effective against grineer.

Let me teach you a neat trick; Instead of using 4 mods to get Magnetic/Gas, use only 3 to get Viral/Heat. You will do A LOT more damage, even if you leave that 4th slot empty.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Gas VS Infested? No, never ever ever. A single Toxic Ancient literally made everything (including itself) immune to Gas.

Except before the status rework gas applied toxin damage with the status proc to enemies, which allowed it to deal bonuses versus infested. 

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Tigris Prime with just Slash? What??? You used 4 60%60% mods to reach 100% status chance (Viral among them), after the status nerf the weapon was never used again.

The shotgun status change is what hurt tigris, not the actual changes to status itself. Tigris is still quite useable, however going from 100% per pellet to ~45% is painful. And no, you didnt do just slash, you got the 4 60/60s and then added a slash mod to offset the status profile, because back then as well IPS were weighted to be 4x more likely then elemental effects. 

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Toxin was nerfed, it deals less damage versus armor and had it's duration reduced.

You never used toxin versus armor anyway! It was always a health based attack since its proc ignored shield. Then it got BUFFED to ignore shields outright, regardless of status procs. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Except before the status rework gas applied toxin damage with the status proc to enemies, which allowed it to deal bonuses versus infested. 

All that sweet sweet bonus damage toxin has against infested.

10 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Then it got BUFFED to ignore shields outright, regardless of status procs. 

It always did that. Let's not try to rewrite history.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

 

It always did that. Let's not try to rewrite history.

I mentioned that before the procs ignored shields, but the damage did not. It now entirely ignores shields, proc or not. That is a buff

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

I mentioned that before the procs ignored shields, but the damage did not. It now entirely ignores shields, proc or not. That is a buff

No, the damage type always ignored shields.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

No, the damage type always ignored shields.

Only the status proc, the DoT effect from proccing toxin ignored the shields. From the 27.2 patch notes: "Now it is neutral. For role distinction, Toxin bypasses Shields (but not Armor) where as Slash Status bypasses Armor but not Shields."

 

Since this change toxin damage, regardless of proc, bypasses shields

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Only the status proc, the DoT effect from proccing toxin ignored the shields. From the 27.2 patch notes: "Now it is neutral. For role distinction, Toxin bypasses Shields (but not Armor) where as Slash Status bypasses Armor but not Shields."

 

Since this change toxin damage, regardless of proc, bypasses shields

Enjoy a showcase of toxin damage bypassing shields from 3 years before that.

 

[(XBOX)THE NTT]

On 2022-01-05 at 3:20 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Or how about melee weapons? The list of nerfs they received is near endless. Momentum (knockdown resistance) deleted. Opening enemies to finishers deleted. Attack speed reduced. Damage reduced like 3 times already. Meta mods effectively deleted. Many forced procs deleted. Many good stances deleted and replaced with worse ones. Line of sight check added. Range reduced.

It doesn't feel fun anymore, being locked into slow and awkward animations for no payoff. Just use an explosive weapon - no animation lock, far greater range and kills through walls.

And, again, during all this time that melee got nerfed again and again and again, did DE even fix any bugs it had? Any at all? Because there are a lot (and I mean A LOT) that I remember from 1 or 2 years back, that are STILL there. Condition Overload, it got nerfed, but it's still bugged. Glaives, got nerfed, but are still bugged. You still can't heavy attack while wielding a gun (you could for a while, but it was horribly bugged - so DE deleted the feature instead of fixing the bug).

Or what about all those stances that don't have a complete moveset? 2 or 3 combos out of 4 being the exact same doesn't strike you as something worth fixing in years? How about a backwards combo? How about some free movement on the forward combo, or no janky forced movements on the neutral ones? How about heavy attacks that can actually hit an enemy right in front of you (yep, some can't do that)?

Feel free to disagree or have a discussion, or make useless remarks a'la "just leave if you don't like it". How long can you go on deleting features while adding bugs? Won't there be nothing but bugs left at some point?

I just like the fact they nerfed attack speed because claiming no one could see the animations (they worked so hard on).  But at the same time they've increased AOE weapons to the point that you don't even see an enemy.  I don't see anyone using melee at all anymore - its just bramma zarr spam. Don't even see the enemies, much less any melee animations.
In fact on public missions, I don't see anything except blinding flashes of light  as I bullet jump through the map with my sniper or single target gun hoping to get a shot off at something before they are atomized.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Enjoy a showcase of toxin damage bypassing shields from 3 years before that.

 

well i be damned. could've sworn it was only procs.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

well i be damned. could've sworn it was only procs.

Toxin simply lost its +25% against Ferrite, so it isn't as multi-purpose as before for the sake of "distinct" roles.

Ironic considering how they buffed Viral to be the MULTI-PURPOSE damage type.

Still, nothing compares to the Corrosive nerf. At Sortie levels 6000 armor reduced to 1200, 95% DR reduced to 80% is just a 4x multiplier in damage. A far cry from a full strip reducing 95% to 0% granting 20x damage.

An enemy only needs 43% DR remaining to negate 1.75x resistance multiplier.

New Corrosive is just worse than old Corrosive above 4500 Ferrite armor and always inferior against Alloy.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

10 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Toxin simply lost its +25% against Ferrite, so it isn't as multi-purpose as before for the sake of "distinct" roles.

Ironic considering how they buffed Viral to be the MULTI-PURPOSE damage type.

Still, nothing compares to the Corrosive nerf. At Sortie levels 6000 armor reduced to 1200, 95% DR reduced to 80% is just a 4x multiplier in damage. A far cry from a full strip reducing 95% to 0% granting 20x damage.

An enemy only needs 43% DR remaining to negate 1.75x resistance multiplier.

New Corrosive is just worse than old Corrosive above 4500 Ferrite armor and always inferior against Alloy.

Yea, the corrosive nerf hit hard. I find it interesting the amount of frames reworked/added since that change that have a way to still 100% armor in their kit

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

4 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Yea, the corrosive nerf hit hard. I find it interesting the amount of frames reworked/added since that change that have a way to still 100% armor in their kit

Not to mention the Helminth system. Pick your flavor of armor strip.

Part of Viral's dominance is the fact that it is it's own unique damage multiplier.

There are better ways to strip armor than Corrosive.

There are alternative sources of Base Damage other than Serration.

Viral weapons only have to contend with Panzer Vulps.

 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

22 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Not to mention the Helminth system. Pick you flavor of armor strip.

Indeed

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Except before the status rework gas applied toxin damage with the status proc to enemies, which allowed it to deal bonuses versus infested.

You've already been corrected on some points, but I feel the need to point out that Toxic Ancients provided near immunity to both Gas and Toxin. You'd just see a whole lot of 1's or even 0's on the enemies if one of those was anywhere nearby (and Ancients spawn like crazy when staying in the mission for a while).

So yeah, Gas did absolutely nothing at all against Infested.

[Els236]

I haven't read all 10 pages of this, but it seems the initial post was about WF becoming more and more buggy and less fun over the years.

Let me tell you, as a 2013 release player, this game has never been more stable than it has now.

 

Now, we might not agree on certain aspects of the game, like nerfs to melee and the countless status changes, but the game has always had a "meta", to reply to the "fun" side of the post:

- Back in the day, Tier-4 void survival was Mesa, Greedy-Pull Mag, Trinity and Rhino, as that was the easiest way to cheese the mission type. You would basically be laughed out of recruit chat if you wanted to run anything else.

- Affinity farming was Draco Defence, with pretty much the same team composition. Or you'd get taxi'd by 2 veterans who were Trinity/Mesa and you would take a level 0 frame and sit in a corner and not fire a single bullet.

- Everyone would run Slash/Corrosive (or Slash/Viral) for Grineer and Toxin/Magnetic for Corpus. Weapons like the Grakata and Vaykor Marelok were king, which then became the Ogris/Penta and the Angstrum.

 

Yes, there were actual threats to us back then, like Stalker, Zanuka and G-3 (yes, for real), which have now become a joke, however:

- Warframe variety is pretty darn good now, people run different frames.

- Yes, the meta is now slash/heat/viral for the most-part, but I fail to see how that's different to any previous meta (there's always been a "best") and people are running Kuva Bramma and Kuva Zarr, which is not really different from Ogris/Penta and Angstrum of old.