Xaku is a heap of problems.

[quxier]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Reaper330011 said:

ok then. didn’t have any difficulty disarming even after the nerf.

It depends on what you are using, Range and how often you want to disarm enemies.

I spammed a lot GoL disarm enemies  (I want disarm most if not all enemies) so after nerf I rarely use VU.

On base Range you have 6 guns. That's not a lot. Even without VU GoL lasts for 15 (afair). With 12 guns I could more comfortably disarm enemies.

[PR1D3]

On 2022-01-28 at 6:05 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Xaku is a perfect example of DE has absolutely zero design philosophy when it comes to making frames and how badly that can screw up the frame.

Holy S#&$, would kill for a whole DevStream where they bring out the design team and lay out their design philosophy. Cause I'm with you man, I don't think they have one. Cause when looking at the frames when they come out, they tend to be wildly inconsistent in terms of mechanics. They have come up with synergies and alternate firing modes such as Press, Press/Hold, Charge Up, Omnidirectional (thanks Zephyr). Yet it seems like when they make a new frame goes down like this: "Hey should we expand upon this ability and use what we learned from past frames with synergies and buff/updates? Nah, ship it. Let them Helminth it."

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Let them Helminth it

And Helminth is like:

- "It's another buffing ability. You can only change ability X"

- "Please keep in mind that using X you cannot activate this ability"

- "Oh you know that one ability that "freezes time for other ability"? Yeah, it won't work with my abilities"

- "Synergies? What's that?"

[Leqesai]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

It depends on what you are using, Range and how often you want to disarm enemies.

I spammed a lot GoL disarm enemies  (I want disarm most if not all enemies) so after nerf I rarely use VU.

On base Range you have 6 guns. That's not a lot. Even without VU GoL lasts for 15 (afair). With 12 guns I could more comfortably disarm enemies.

It is so strange to me that people insist on using gol as a disarm when it is clearly not intended to work this way. 

Just because disarm is an effect of the ability it does not mean you should build around it. It is like using the explosion from iron shrapnel as the purpose of the ability while disregarding thr iron skin...

Grasp of lok is a dps ability with a very minor cc component. 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

It is so strange to me that people insist on using gol as a disarm when it is clearly not intended to work this way. 

Just because disarm is an effect of the ability it does not mean you should build around it. It is like using the explosion from iron shrapnel as the purpose of the ability while disregarding thr iron skin...

Grasp of lok is a dps ability with a very minor cc component. 

On the other hand, it would be pretty cool if you could recast it at full gun stock just for that minor CC.

[quxier]

35 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It is so strange to me that people insist on using gol as a disarm when it is clearly not intended to work this way. 

Just because disarm is an effect of the ability it does not mean you should build around it. It is like using the explosion from iron shrapnel as the purpose of the ability while disregarding thr iron skin...

Grasp of lok is a dps ability with a very minor cc component. 

The thing it used to disarm enemies at full guns.

Whenever it was intended from the start or not it doesn't matter. It's possible to do it so people may try that.

Even now you can use it to disarm whole room of armed enemies. Without guns most enemies are not very dangerous.

ps. you can use both with small negative duration.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Holy S#&$, would kill for a whole DevStream where they bring out the design team and lay out their design philosophy. Cause I'm with you man, I don't think they have one. Cause when looking at the frames when they come out, they tend to be wildly inconsistent in terms of mechanics. They have come up with synergies and alternate firing modes such as Press, Press/Hold, Charge Up, Omnidirectional (thanks Zephyr). Yet it seems like when they make a new frame goes down like this: "Hey should we expand upon this ability and use what we learned from past frames with synergies and buff/updates? Nah, ship it. Let them Helminth it."

My issue isn’t really inconsistency is mechanics. Variety is necessary to keep frame interesting. The issue is lack of consistency in quality. Some frames DE will go above and beyond to ensure the frame is good (Gauss) and some frames they just dance around the issues and never actually improve the parts of the frame that needs it (Yareli).

Regardless we both agree that they clearly don’t use previous experience of past frame developments to learn how to make any mechanically different frame from being obsolete the second they’re added.

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My issue isn’t really inconsistency is mechanics. Variety is necessary to keep frame interesting. The issue is lack of consistency in quality. Some frames DE will go above and beyond to ensure the frame is good (Gauss) and some frames they just dance around the issues and never actually improve the parts of the frame that needs it (Yareli).

Regardless we both agree that they clearly don’t use previous experience of past frame developments to learn how to make any mechanically different frame from being obsolete the second they’re added.

Yep!

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

On the other hand, it would be pretty cool if you could recast it at full gun stock just for that minor CC.

But why?

It already kills everything near instantly. Wouldnt an extra layer of cc be redundant?

 

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

But why?

It already kills everything near instantly. Wouldnt an extra layer of cc be redundant?

Some people want to do more than pressing few keys every few minutes.

There are of course other reason for different people.

[Leqesai]

32 minutes ago, quxier said:

Some people want to do more than pressing few keys every few minutes.

There are of course other reason for different people.

I get that but why wouldnt these people just play a frame that fits their style rather than botch the ability set of xaku just so the can disarm enemies.. seems crazy to me.

But if it makes the people happy cool. Just seems like a funny thought process to me.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I get that but why wouldnt these people just play a frame that fits their style rather than botch the ability set of xaku just so the can disarm enemies.. seems crazy to me.

At least for me there is no frame that could do it like Xaku. There is Loki but it just disarm all enemies - that's boring. There is Panthera but it's too slow for "higher" content.

Plus, aesthetically speaking Xaku looks good. I cannot wait for their next skin.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

But why?

It already kills everything near instantly. Wouldnt an extra layer of cc be redundant?

Valkyr's Paralysis is mainly an AoE stun. It also deals damage based on her shields, though Valkyr is about as far from a shield frame as they come. Should the shield-based damage be removed, seeing as it doesn't accomplish much? I don't think so. Having an ability be able to do multiple things opens up build creativity, something I feel is good for the game's longevity, as well as helping abilities stay relevant in different builds. If GoL could continue to disarm past the gun limit, it would open up Xaku's build variety a bit.

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Valkyr's Paralysis is mainly an AoE stun. It also deals damage based on her shields, though Valkyr is about as far from a shield frame as they come. Should the shield-based damage be removed, seeing as it doesn't accomplish much? I don't think so. Having an ability be able to do multiple things opens up build creativity, something I feel is good for the game's longevity, as well as helping abilities stay relevant in different builds. If GoL could continue to disarm past the gun limit, it would open up Xaku's build variety a bit.

The difference here is significant though. Paralysis is mostly a throwaway ability and grasp of lohk is not. For both damage and cc paralysis is relatively useless considering valkyrs kit. 

Xaku is already an S tier frame. Boosting grasp of lohk by giving it a better cc use is like adding frosting to an already frosted cake. Quite simply, xaku doesnt need any cc from grasp of lohk. They already have everything they need to be at the top of the power scale. Grasp of lohk is not a cc ability at the end of the day. Yes it does a little cc disarm but that is mostly irrelevant. It is a major dps ability and i think it is ridiculous to try and give it an additional layer of cc effectiveness.

[quxier]

12 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The difference here is significant though. Paralysis is mostly a throwaway ability and grasp of lohk is not. For both damage and cc paralysis is relatively useless considering valkyrs kit. 

Xaku is already an S tier frame. Boosting grasp of lohk by giving it a better cc use is like adding frosting to an already frosted cake. Quite simply, xaku doesnt need any cc from grasp of lohk. They already have everything they need to be at the top of the power scale. Grasp of lohk is not a cc ability at the end of the day. Yes it does a little cc disarm but that is mostly irrelevant. It is a major dps ability and i think it is ridiculous to try and give it an additional layer of cc effectiveness.

I like when people says frame doesn't need change just because at least one (but not all) ability is doing very good job.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

38 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

The difference here is significant though. Paralysis is mostly a throwaway ability and grasp of lohk is not. For both damage and cc paralysis is relatively useless considering valkyrs kit. 

It's in fact possible to build Paralysis as an AoE nukes capable of single-handedly taking you through five waves of Hydron, at least. In that way, it's a very unique ability in Valkyr's kit. If DE was to give it a few buffs, it would work further into endgame, opening up a new Valkyr playstyle. As I previously said:

3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Having an ability be able to do multiple things opens up build creativity, something I feel is good for the game's longevity

42 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku is already an S tier frame. Boosting grasp of lohk by giving it a better cc use is like adding frosting to an already frosted cake. Quite simply, xaku doesnt need any cc from grasp of lohk. They already have everything they need to be at the top of the power scale. Grasp of lohk is not a cc ability at the end of the day. Yes it does a little cc disarm but that is mostly irrelevant. It is a major dps ability and i think it is ridiculous to try and give it an additional layer of cc effectiveness.

Chroma and Inaros are both top-tier frames as well, yet they respectively have two and three abilities that go all but completely unused in typical gameplay. Does this mean that they're in a good spot? Of course not. Saying that a frame doesn't need a buff because they're already got something to be good at is a poor defense, as is claiming that an ability doesn't need damage because it's mainly a CC ability, or vice versa. Is Desolate Hands disarm or damage reduction? Is Avalance CC or armor reduction? Is Splinter Storm damage reduction, damage amp, or contact damage? Is Thermal Sunder AoE damage, CC, or armor reduction? Is Feast armor bonus or AoE damage? Is Condemn shield regen or CC? Is Covenant damage immunity or crit buff? Is Magnetize CC or AoE nuke? Is Parasitic Link damage reduction or Strength buff? Is Gloom slow or lifesteal?

Going by your logic, should these abilities not be effective in the areas that aren't their main point?

[Maryph]

Well, the evasion mecanic is really #*!%ing bad especially in warframe, that's also why they added the dmg reduction from AoE after the community got angry.
I don't know why they keep thinking that evasion is a good thing, it's not, even at 75 percent it's still a dice roll that you can't control.

But yeah, basically you use GoL, armor strip and 4 to keep CD at a stop, I don't see much use for anything else.
The laser beam could be great but you can't move while casting it.
Same for the Enthrall AoE thing.

Aside from that, the frame is great, I guess.
If you set aside 40 percent of it's kit

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Chroma and Inaros are both top-tier frames as well, yet they respectively have two and three abilities that go all but completely unused in typical gameplay. Does this mean that they're in a good spot? Of course not. Saying that a frame doesn't need a buff because they're already got something to be good at is a poor defense, as is claiming that an ability doesn't need damage because it's mainly a CC ability, or vice versa. Is Desolate Hands disarm or damage reduction? Is Avalance CC or armor reduction? Is Splinter Storm damage reduction, damage amp, or contact damage? Is Thermal Sunder AoE damage, CC, or armor reduction? Is Feast armor bonus or AoE damage? Is Condemn shield regen or CC? Is Covenant damage immunity or crit buff? Is Magnetize CC or AoE nuke? Is Parasitic Link damage reduction or Strength buff? Is Gloom slow or lifesteal?

Going by your logic, should these abilities not be effective in the areas that aren't their main point?

None of the abilities you mentioned are in need of extra functionality, nor is Grasp of Lohk. I'm not really following your argument. Every one of the abilities you mentioned may have dual purpose but they aren't being asked for changes. The disarm from Grasp of Lohk functions as intended and it is not necessary to buff the ability to serve the desires of a playerbase that expects it to function differently than intended. It is not a CC ability. It is a damage ability with a CC component that is mostly throwaway due to the nature of its damage component. 

Comparing apples to oranges, Waifu. The clamoring for GOL to have extra CC functionality is simply absurd as far as I'm concerned. The DPS component negates the disarm component almost immediately. You pull the weapons from enemies then GOL kills them in the blink of an eye. Xaku also has decent CC with Accuse... I just don't understand the mentality of you guys some times. Xaku stands at the top of the pyramid as far as power goes and ya'll want to give them unnecessary buffs... seems really silly to me. I don't think I'm going to understand your perspective on this because I just can't connect the rationale to logical necessity.

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't argue for whatever you want. I'm just saying, from my perspective, it is an absurd request.

[sunderthefirmament]

47 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't argue for whatever you want. I'm just saying, from my perspective, it is an absurd request.

 

It's also absurd because it makes Loki's 4 completely irrelevant.  It's almost as insulting to Loki as Khora's Pilfering Strangledome was to Hydroid.  Admittedly, Loki would still have use due to his stealth and drone repositioning abilities.  But the fact remains that GoL is already one of the strongest damaging abilities in the game, and allowing it to disarm even at max capacity would allow it to outclass Loki's disarm due to it providing fast, low-cost CC... while also strengthening its DPS potential by allowing you to instantly fill your floating guns with ones from the enemies you are currently facing (it scales with level, and enemy level increases over time in most mission types).

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

None of the abilities you mentioned are in need of extra functionality, nor is Grasp of Lohk. I'm not really following your argument. Every one of the abilities you mentioned may have dual purpose but they aren't being asked for changes. The disarm from Grasp of Lohk functions as intended and it is not necessary to buff the ability to serve the desires of a playerbase that expects it to function differently than intended. It is not a CC ability. It is a damage ability with a CC component that is mostly throwaway due to the nature of its damage component. 

Comparing apples to oranges, Waifu. The clamoring for GOL to have extra CC functionality is simply absurd as far as I'm concerned. The DPS component negates the disarm component almost immediately. You pull the weapons from enemies then GOL kills them in the blink of an eye. Xaku also has decent CC with Accuse... I just don't understand the mentality of you guys some times. Xaku stands at the top of the pyramid as far as power goes and ya'll want to give them unnecessary buffs... seems really silly to me. I don't think I'm going to understand your perspective on this because I just can't connect the rationale to logical necessity.

I'm not saying you guys shouldn't argue for whatever you want. I'm just saying, from my perspective, it is an absurd request.

Yeah, here's the kicker - you say it's like comparing apples to oranges, but if GoL was to be buffed to be recastable at max guns, we would be comparing oranges to oranges. It'd be an ability that could fulfill multiple roles. (And it's not like there aren't cases of "X negates Y" in the "oranges" I mentioned in my last post either.)

Thus, your point here is nothing more than begging the question - "GoL is not a CC ability, thus it shouldn't be a CC ability". As such, your point's fallacious, or to use your word, absurd.

Edit:

58 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's also absurd because it makes Loki's 4 completely irrelevant.  It's almost as insulting to Loki as Khora's Pilfering Strangledome was to Hydroid.

Boy, the number of abilities we'd need to nerf because they make Yareli's irrelevant...

Spoiler

It might just be the case that some abilities, like Loki's 4, need a buff, because they're only "fine" in a vacuum.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

7 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

 

Boy, the number of abilities we'd need to nerf because they make Yareli's irrelevant...

  Reveal hidden contents

It might just be the case that some abilities, like Loki's 4, need a buff, because they're only "fine" in a vacuum.

 

I don't disagree.  I just think that Xaku is already incredibly strong and effective, with a varied and moderately engaging (subjective) kit. 

 

And I'm not asking for a nerf or anything.  Nerfing everyone else down to Yareli's level would be a monumental undertaking and serve no real purpose.

 

Let's put some respect on Xaku's name as a frame that can already trivialize so much "endgame" content.  And then let's move on to fixing the frames that can't even hold a candle next to our gender-nonconforming skeletal friend.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I don't disagree.  I just think that Xaku is already incredibly strong and effective, with a varied and moderately engaging (subjective) kit. 

And I'm not asking for a nerf or anything.  Nerfing everyone else down to Yareli's level would be a monumental undertaking and serve no real purpose.

Let's put some respect on Xaku's name as a frame that can already trivialize so much "endgame" content.  And then let's move on to fixing the frames that can't even hold a candle next to our gender-nonconforming skeletal friend.

I'm not in favor of more GoL disarm possibility because Xaku needs it to be strong/effective - they certainly don't. I'm merely in favor of it to add to their variety, seeing as it's already a thing in their kit, only arbitrarily limited (and something they could once do). I don't believe it would affect their max power to any mention-worthy degree, seeing as they can already trivialize so much "endgame" content, so there's no harm there. And while there's definitely a ton of frames more in need of some love (*cough* Yareli *cough*), I believe this to be an easily implemented buff(/un-nerf?) they could just squeeze in somewhere.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Xaku also has decent CC with Accuse...

Unless you want to shoot. 75 energy can go "puff".

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's also absurd because it makes Loki's 4 completely irrelevant.  It's almost as insulting to Loki as Khora's Pilfering Strangledome was to Hydroid.  Admittedly, Loki would still have use due to his stealth and drone repositioning abilities.  But the fact remains that GoL is already one of the strongest damaging abilities in the game, and allowing it to disarm even at max capacity would allow it to outclass Loki's disarm due to it providing fast, low-cost CC... while also strengthening its DPS potential by allowing you to instantly fill your floating guns with ones from the enemies you are currently facing (it scales with level, and enemy level increases over time in most mission types).

It costs 50 energy (compared to 100 of Loki) can disarm within 15 meters (compared to 20) and only disarm 6 targets (compared to infinity).

It won't make Loki irrelevant. It would be just 2 different disarm abilities. One that could disarm all enemies and other that you need to spam it a little.

26 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Nerfing everyone else down to Yareli's level would be a monumental undertaking and serve no real purpose.

Let's put some respect on Xaku's name as a frame that can already trivialize so much "endgame" content.  And then let's move on to fixing the frames that can't even hold a candle next to our gender-nonconforming skeletal friend.

Let's put Yareli there too. She (her Aquablades) makes it super easy to kill Greener. ;)

[sunderthefirmament]

6 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I'm not in favor of more GoL disarm possibility because Xaku needs it to be strong/effective - they certainly don't. I'm merely in favor of it to add to their variety, seeing as it's already a thing in their kit, only arbitrarily limited (and something they could once do). I don't believe it would affect their max power to any mention-worthy degree, seeing as they can already trivialize so much "endgame" content, so there's no harm there. And while there's definitely a ton of frames more in need of some love (*cough* Yareli *cough*), I believe this to be an easily implemented buff(/un-nerf?) they could just squeeze in somewhere.

That's a fair point.  They already have one of the most powerful CC abilities in the game on their 3.  Solo (for lighter spawns) mobile defense is afk mode.  You can just convert the entire map and stare at the timer ticking down.

[(PSN)Reaper330011]

23 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

That's a fair point.  They already have one of the most powerful CC abilities in the game on their 3.  Solo (for lighter spawns) mobile defense is afk mode.  You can just convert the entire map and stare at the timer ticking down.

Lol true. I always found it fun to use Accuse. Especially when On void mode when everything is already void infused.