I Never Tried Conclave But I Think DE Should Expand Conclave

[Ryomichi]

After playing WF so long, I got "I don't have anything to do" syndrome. So I come here and read conclave forum. There are many passionate players hoping for more and I believe conclave deserve some expansion. This is what I think, I don't play conclave, please don't roast me.

Warframe is a mature game. It has many playable characters and weapons. Looking at some other PVP games, WF can easily implement something like:  Apex Legends, Halo, Titanfall, and Call of Duties. These games listed have a fast phase and mobile gameplay. DE had made a successful PVP game themselves, Unreal Tournament. Currently, DE Warframe already have some open world map, plenty of Dojo decorating assets, and stable Game mode codes. With all the asset, they can make a battle royale just like that. (easier said than done I guess). (I'm giving battle royale example because it is the most extreme game mode in my opinion)

The problem DE might encounter is the server. From what I see in YouTube, conclave max player count is 8 per game. If they want more players, they need to expand their server which is expensive. Seeing how players are so laggy in relay and dojo, I think DE need some server upgrade. But their parent company is Tencent which also owns PUBG. They have some experience hosting massive player count. So DE could maybe ask them.

The other problem is balancing arsenals without breaking the lore and make those "main" users angry. In order to balance the game play, there will be a massive overhaul on how the game works in conclave. All the auto targeting abilities need to be reworked to manual targeting. Weapons with hit scan will need to be recalibrated (or just use prime weapons?). Usual wall jumping will need to be tone down. This is alot of time coding. It took them a couple months to balance the recent augment changes; this will take much longer.

last problem, battle royale in the market is very saturated. And I don't know if Tencent want to pull their PUBG player base to another Tencent game. But I think this will attract all other players from the game I listed before because they have a similar feel and mobility. DE is very generous about their product, there is no lootbox, you can earn everything in game. I think this will be very appealing to those players who had to pay for a new skin/character.

If DE decide to make a great PVE mode, Reviewers will be singing songs on top of the mountain when they are already praising DE's good deeds in gaming sphere. With so many good skins available, new player will either buy the cosmetics or play through the game, increasing the player base. 

Edit: Yes SpicyDinosaur, I just tried all conclave mode and watched a bunch of conclave on youtube after your suggestion. Thanks :D

Summary of Page 1:
Leverage with community hosted servers [CHS] even more for conclave (CHS is available but not obvious how to use it) | Separate PVP from PVE experience: make PVP an adaptation of PVE not derivation | General rebalancing | No battle royal (why not?) | ...

[SpicyDinosaur]

Play Conclave before suggesting ideas. That should be obvious.

[Ryomichi]

Do you like the current conclave? I meant to say Conclave is something I would play to relieve my "I don't have anything to do" syndrome if DE expand it abit more with their assets.

[SpicyDinosaur]

4 minutes ago, Nichirya said:

Do you like the current conclave? I meant to say Conclave is something I would play to relieve my "I don't have anything to do" syndrome if DE expand it abit more with their assets.

you suggested a battle royale? Conclave already has that. If you know nothing about the game mode how do you have any idea what needs to be fixed?

 

Most Conclave players are just trying to get DE to get rid of the Telos Boltace from the available weapons, much less get some big overhaul.

[Dauggie]

concave have very little fan base, which is close to negligible. i'm just glad they are not added new rewards behind that mode as to force us to play.

[Laveillon]

Warframe does not have battle royal. Warframe does not need battle royal.

A sentence i saw many times, when similar posts were published before. Now that's out of the way, let's tackle the main issue with conclave; Balance. By desing, Warframe is (now, sadly) a run'n'gun horde shooter, centralizing all sorts of power creep onto a single player. We have approx. on average 1000-ish EHP, but many of our tools is easily capable to deal millions of damage.

Many experienced Tenno suggested, that to improve PvP, we must see a damage generalization, slowing down significantly the game (which at this point is hardly possible, if worth it at all) so that DE >can< start working on improving the Conclave we have right now. And what we have now is mindless copter-melee meta, buggy, laggy, hardly enjoyable.

For me, it's a gamemode, i don't really want to play with. Last time i tried, i could sit comfortabily in the lobby for more than 30 minutes and not a single soul attempted to join me. Same with Lunaro.

[chaotea]

54 minutes ago, Nichirya said:

Do you like the current conclave? I meant to say Conclave is something I would play to relieve my "I don't have anything to do" syndrome if DE expand it abit more with their assets.

I dont, and it wont. PvP isnt well suited to warframes play style TBH.

 

May i suggest playing other games until there is new content released?

[Ryomichi]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

you suggested a battle royale? Conclave already has that. If you know nothing about the game mode how do you have any idea what needs to be fixed?

LOL, I just tried all conclave modes and there is no Battle royale. You guys read what he said?

 

1 hour ago, Laveillon said:

Warframe does not have battle royal. Warframe does not need battle royal.

Ok, so no battle royal. What can DE do to make conclave more naturally enticing to play? I disagree on slapping conclave only rewards either. Balancing the game in general is also not enticing enough. It need to be something new player will naturally want to try. Maybe at least a leaderboard on the conclave console where everybody can see who is the best? People want to be the best and to have every one know it. 

[Ryomichi]

6 minutes ago, chaotea said:

May i suggest playing other games until there is new content released?

No you may not. :D . I want to play warframe. PVP is well suited to warframe if it is done right. WF got alot of character, skin, weapon and "customability". There is already KAHL-175 game play that is slow and grounded and people love it. Maybe PVP can do some changes.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

I have never seen toxic behavior on Warframe before trying conclave. I didn't take it that seriously myself I just wanted to get some standing. It took probably at least ten minutes to get other player and I had to turn off that option which basically limits matchmaking to only players in same level. 

got one match with four players which was free for all. One player rage quitted after calling others OP and stuff. which then canceled match but threw me solo so it somehow counted it as match won because I was only player? 

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

you suggested a battle royale? Conclave already has that

Where? I'd like to give it a shot, ngl.

[Ryomichi]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

I have never seen toxic behavior on Warframe before trying conclave. I didn't take it that seriously myself I just wanted to get some standing. It took probably at least ten minutes to get other player and I had to turn off that option which basically limits matchmaking to only players in same level. 

got one match with four players which was free for all. One player rage quitted after calling others OP and stuff. which then canceled match but threw me solo so it somehow counted it as match won because I was only player? 

I think you posted in the wrong forum my friend... My original post is about making a conclave game mode which I want to play, and might work with WF. Who is toxic again?

[LSG501]

So basic translation... OP wants battle royale in warframe.... most players don't even bother with conclave so it would be a literal waste of DE's time and resources.

We've already had so much stuff added to the game that isn't popular we don't need more adding.

[Stormdragon]

3 hours ago, Nichirya said:

The problem DE might encounter is the server

I'd say it may be more on the engine itself, they could just keep outsourcing servers to players -like they currently do on PC- and do it all on community hosted servers, which in some cases gets players with great machines and amazing connections to host without needing to have the server split on endless instances for being the only one in a huge area, allowing community hosted servers to perform much better than those hosted by DE themselves.

3 hours ago, Nichirya said:

The other problem is balancing arsenals without breaking the lore and make those "main" users angry.

Conclave already has a different balance than PvE. The differences involve mostly removing random stats (no status chance, no crit chance, crit damage replaced by headshot multiplier), auto target abilities require manual targetting instead on top of several ability tweaks to make powers useful in a PvP environment without making them an obvious choice, while also keeping their mechanical behavior, mobility stat balanced around warframe EHP, weapon damage amd warframe EHP tweaked, etc.

The issue with balance comes from it being also a multiplier to damage, which makes most weapon buffs carry over to pvp (like happened with the PvE weapon rebalance around PoE release: PvP balance was pretty much on point before that) and PvE mechanics bleeding over PvP as well (like player ragdolls, as mentioned above) on top of DE not fixing the issues these create.

[Ryomichi]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

So basic translation... OP wants battle royale in warframe.... most players don't even bother with conclave so it would be a literal waste of DE's time and resources.

We've already had so much stuff added to the game that isn't popular we don't need more adding.

Youre goddamn right! I don't want a PVP that no one cares like in the current state. If you read my post I did point out that it would take time. But with the resource that DE currently have in warframe, I don't think it will be as hard as making it from the ground up. It is hard but not as hard as making it from the ground up.

Well, it doesnt need to be battle royal anyway. if you read, I put BR just as an example. What PVP games do you play then? any suggestions? this a Feedback part of the forum for conclave.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

26 minutes ago, Nichirya said:

I think you posted in the wrong forum my friend... My original post is about making a conclave game mode which I want to play, and might work with WF. Who is toxic again?

Eh just wanted to share my experience with conclave.

[Ryomichi]

2 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

I'd say it may be more on the engine itself, they could just keep outsourcing servers to players -like they currently do on PC- and do it all on community hosted servers, which in some cases gets players with great machines and amazing connections to host without needing to have the server split on endless instances for being the only one in a huge area, allowing community hosted servers to perform much better than those hosted by DE themselves.

Conclave already has a different balance than PvE. The differences involve mostly removing random stats (no status chance, no crit chance, crit damage replaced by headshot multiplier), auto target abilities require manual targetting instead on top of several ability tweaks to make powers useful in a PvP environment without making them an obvious choice, while also keeping their mechanical behavior, mobility stat balanced around warframe EHP, weapon damage amd warframe EHP tweaked, etc.

The issue with balance comes from it being also a multiplier to damage, which makes most weapon buffs carry over to pvp (like happened with the PvE weapon rebalance around PoE release: PvP balance was pretty much on point before that) and PvE mechanics bleeding over PvP as well (like player ragdolls, as mentioned above) on top of DE not fixing the issues these create.

Good idea. some of the most stable connection is through community hosted servers. That is something DE should look into, an official community server.

If weapon buffs carryover to PVP, what about just use some selected weapon? So players do not need to provide their own weapon, it is provided. i suppose that is easier to balance because the choice are fixed and everyone could use them.

[chaotea]

5 hours ago, Nichirya said:

No you may not. :D . I want to play warframe. PVP is well suited to warframe if it is done right. WF got alot of character, skin, weapon and "customability". There is already KAHL-175 game play that is slow and grounded and people love it. Maybe PVP can do some changes.

I often play other games or take long breaks from WF, so im not judging or anything. I honestly feel its a good mechinism for keeping it fresh.

I feel the issue there is that the KAHL-175 gameplay is very much not Warframe gameplay. So making a new mode based around that would be odd. PVP may be suited in a similar way to the OMD vs multiplayer, where 2 teams are doing battle against bots in a tug of war scenario. Like a survival where when you collect life support it pushes the other teams meter down instead of bringing yours up.

I dont feel direct pvp works so well, just in how everything about the game is calibrated to pve.

So yea, while im in support of cometitive modes, i feel like they should play to WFs strengths, not try to compensate for its weaker areas.

For example, cometitive Eidalon hunts? Or competitive, score based conservation hunts? Maybe even an Asimetric game like Dead for Daylight, where 5 players are oporators and 1 player is some infested creature, and you have to escape a tileset. Things like that.

[Laveillon]

7 hours ago, Nichirya said:

What can DE do to make conclave more naturally enticing to play?

What they can and what they want is possibly not the same thing. I've already stated, general rebalancing and other major tweaks are a Necessity to even begin the redesign of PvP. I doubt much will happen in these fields.

 

7 hours ago, Nichirya said:

There is already KAHL-175 game play that is slow and grounded and people love it. Maybe PVP can do some changes.

I was actually stupid and naive enough to hope, that that mission type won't be just a quest-only gimmick mission, but a properly designed and fleshed out mission type, which we can play with, level Corpus and Grineer ranks respectively, by not playing as a Tenno, but a completely different being, as a Grineer, or Corpus member. Since the narrative was already broken, i don't see why we can't play AS other factions, not just supporting them via outbreaks and invasions.

Then again... high medium hopes and wishful thinking. DE is not what it used to be.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

11 hours ago, chaotea said:

PvP isnt well suited to warframes play style TBH.

I don't understand this. Warframe's raw mechanics fit into PvP as well as any other advanced mobility mechanics you see in other PvP games. They have their jank and they have their rules and understanding rules and input chains are integral to Conclave experience. I say with good confidence that your average Conclave player understands Warframe's mobility better than the overwhelming majority of PvE-only players. 

Just what is it about Warframe's "play style" that must forgo PvP like this forum claims? Is it the AOE spam? Is it the AOE spam while watching movies? Is it the "power fantasy" and zero risk of failure? Is it the lack of any incentive to learn parkour? Maybe a standard Conclave match duration could be shortened from 10 minutes to 5-6 minutes and respawn timer made much faster but that's the only thing I can see myself agreeing wrt "play style" disparity. 

[SpicyDinosaur]

14 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Where? I'd like to give it a shot, ngl.

Battle Royale is basically the everyone versus everyone else, correct? It's the only mode that people play currently. (I really like capture the cephalon and am sad I can't get groups in that.)

[Ryomichi]

21 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Battle Royale is basically the everyone versus everyone else, correct? It's the only mode that people play currently. (I really like capture the cephalon and am sad I can't get groups in that.)

No.......

Please google battle royale. Search Youtube for Apex Legends, and PUBG, and wikipedia and then tell me what you think. please take your time looking at them. 

[chaotea]

19 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I don't understand this. Warframe's raw mechanics fit into PvP as well as any other advanced mobility mechanics you see in other PvP games. They have their jank and they have their rules and understanding rules and input chains are integral to Conclave experience. I say with good confidence that your average Conclave player understands Warframe's mobility better than the overwhelming majority of PvE-only players. 

Not really my point.

Warframe, from movement to abilities to weapons to damage types. Its all built and balanced around PvE, one vs many gameplay. This is evidenced in how many abilities and weapon stats are altered just for the game.

And i'd argue that very few of the mechanics of warframe measure up to similar games that are specifically designed around PVP. In fact i struggle to think of any PvP games like warframe that ive experienced.

I'd point out though that i never specifically mentioned mobility as an issue. The fact that you've focused on this so much in your reply may indicate that you do feel that is the main point of contention yourself.

The main thing though is this: Is PvP as good as PvE in Warframe? If the answer is No, why not? If yes, what makes it better specifically? This is the basis for finding out what works and doesnt with it. For the most part the issue is that nothing in the PvP mode was made for PvP. It was all made for PvE, and very minorly adapted for PvP. So its never going to be as good as we might otherwise like. Instead of pushing for it to be so, maybe its better to compromise to make it more like a competitive PvE mode.

[Tyreaus]

57 minutes ago, chaotea said:

The main thing though is this: Is PvP as good as PvE in Warframe? If the answer is No, why not? If yes, what makes it better specifically?

I think this becomes a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. In general, PvP focuses much more on active gameplay. That is, the mods slotted make little difference compared to the player's input, especially when compared to the impact mods have in PvE gameplay, where—as long as you know to aim in the direction of an enemy—a well-modded Bramma will often handle content for you. That's part of why a competitive PvE mode is both contentious and decently popular an idea: it leverages what can draw players in to PvE, but at the cost of PvP's focal shift on active gameplay. So to ask "is PvP as good as PvE in Warframe?" requires the question of "what metric do you use to define 'good'?" And most metrics are going to have twelve footnotes appended to them—even a popularity metric has the caveat that Warframe is marketed as a looter shooter and so the issue becomes an audience mismatch, which speaks nothing to any innate quality of Conclave as a mode.

That said, there's a good point in how PvP is an adaptation of PvE. Something like Frame Fighter, while not terribly popular, effectively started as a fighter from the ground-up. Warframe abilities were used as inspiration. The biggest drawback to Conclave being a PvE adaptation is embodied in PvE bleed-overs, from shield gating to fall-off bugs to the simple lack of polish in Warframe growing from a stealth action game to a horde shooter. The sort of lack of polish you can shrug and ignore in a PvE environment but that can affect the feel of play pretty substantially in PvP. Things like having wildly flailing, contorting hitboxes and headshot multipliers. That's not to say Warframe's play style or mechanics don't fit PvP, or vice versa. There's mobility shooters aplenty nowadays. The issue is that Conclave is beholden to PvE, rather than inspired by it. And while that can function, with a good bit of mechanics editing albeit, we miss out on potential like a fully fledged arena shooter with weapon pickups ala Quake, or other fairly broad changes that could make Conclave lean into its active gameplay more effectively. The sorts of things we probably don't think about because they're not part of PvE.

[Ryomichi]

50 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Warframe, from movement to abilities to weapons to damage types. Its all built and balanced around PvE, one vs many gameplay. This is evidenced in how many abilities and weapon stats are altered just for the game.

And i'd argue that very few of the mechanics of warframe measure up to similar games that are specifically designed around PVP. In fact i struggle to think of any PvP games like warframe that ive experienced.

I'd point out though that i never specifically mentioned mobility as an issue. The fact that you've focused on this so much in your reply may indicate that you do feel that is the main point of contention yourself.

The main thing though is this: Is PvP as good as PvE in Warframe? If the answer is No, why not? If yes, what makes it better specifically? This is the basis for finding out what works and doesnt with it. For the most part the issue is that nothing in the PvP mode was made for PvP. It was all made for PvE, and very minorly adapted for PvP. So its never going to be as good as we might otherwise like. Instead of pushing for it to be so, maybe its better to compromise to make it more like a competitive PvE mode.

Chaotea,  I agree with you that WF is designed for PVE, that is because PVE is the main focus absolutely. But that doesn't mean it can be a good PVP either. The fact that DE willing to separate different modding and balancing system for conclave means DE is able to separate the design for PVP.

you said, "few mechanics measure up to similar [PVP] games..." I say its alright. It doesn't need to measure up to anything and can be its own mechanic. I do think WF mechanic is fun for PVP. It just need some tweaks to make it feel better. Looking at other PVP games, WF conclave need to have First Person View mode, and a selection of weapons that everyone can use. If our arsenal is tight to our progress, player with weaker or weapon will less likely to play.

So again, I would separate PVP and PVE, and stop comparing them altogether. Im trying to reset the course of discussion,: After all this years of development DE have the asset (mentioned in original post) to create a fun PVP mode. and PVP could be the endgame for many players who have nothing to do. PVP would entice old and new players to collect free skins, when all other live service games require you to purchase or loot box. This is a huge win for warframe in my opinion. 

 

On 2022-03-18 at 10:16 PM, chaotea said:

For example, cometitive Eidalon hunts? Or competitive, score based conservation hunts? Maybe even an Asimetric game like Dead for Daylight, where 5 players are oporators and 1 player is some infested creature, and you have to escape a tileset. Things like that.

This could work and it could do its own forum and discuss over there. Since you said "maybe better to compromise," one problem I can think of is, a compromised design is not fun.