So uh, how's Gyre doin?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Silence, spaztastic weapon damage, and judicious use of Sonic Boom solve a lot of problems!

Shield gate cheese too, which I'd guess might be harder with Gyre.  I'm no expert on her or shield gating though.

Still the same concept: 

1 and/or 2 can he used to "spam" for Brief Respite. High duration and the rest is up to the player. The chain lightning is amazing and spreads pretty decently with just 107 range. I'm putting another D Polarity in for rolling guard.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Just because something is worse doesn't mean it's bad.

alternatives being better does make it obsolete, which is bad. 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It was an example. I should have said "Some players are capable of handling frames better than others."

some guy somewhere "doing well" with her does not really do anything about her obsolence.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Banshee already showed squishy frames can do "difficult" content. I used to use frames as crutches, too, until I gained experience and learned how to move and mod. 

"git gud" is not the defense you think it is, especially when strawmanning. i have not said anything about squishy frames being bad in higher level content. at all. 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If someone is doing higher tier content with what some players are calling a bad frame, then that means either the frame doesn't fit the playstyle of some people, or some players aren't at a level needed to operate said frame.

thats not how anything works. just because some people can do something fine, does not mean the rest can. especially in gaming and even more so in warframe. i can (and do) high tier content with valkyr, that does not change the fact that she is just a weaker sevagoth. even the "higher tier" content in this game is easy. 

so, lets look at your arguments. first, you brought up the effects of her abilities. then you were pointed out the fact that those abilities were not really great when compared with its competition. then you moved the goalpost to "level cap" not being the point of balance. then you were pointed out thats a strawman, you went the other way, completely ignoring your own argument and commited the fallacy of survivorship bias by claiming that since there are people who are "doing fine" with her, rest of us should just adapt or git gud even though she is made obsolete by other dps/cc frames. and now i do wonder where you will move the goalpost next. actually, no. i do not.

the point here is, why? numerically she is obsolete. her numbers on her abilities are simply bad and  every dps/cc frame is better than her at both of these things and most of them do more than just those two. gyre has only these two things and she is meh at both of them when compared to her competition. this isnt just an opinion, its just what it is. either prove that she is not worse than her competition with actual numbers of their kit like how game balance is actually done, or just let me know that you are not interested in doing that so i will know not to waste more of my time here. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

21 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

alternatives being better does make it obsolete, which is bad. 

some guy somewhere "doing well" with her does not really do anything about her obsolence.

"git gud" is not the defense you think it is, especially when strawmanning. i have not said anything about squishy frames being bad in higher level content. at all. 

thats not how anything works. just because some people can do something fine, does not mean the rest can. especially in gaming and even more so in warframe. i can (and do) high tier content with valkyr, that does not change the fact that she is just a weaker sevagoth. even the "higher tier" content in this game is easy. 

so, lets look at your arguments. first, you brought up the effects of her abilities. then you were pointed out the fact that those abilities were not really great when compared with its competition. then you moved the goalpost to "level cap" not being the point of balance. then you were pointed out thats a strawman, you went the other way, completely ignoring your own argument and commited the fallacy of survivorship bias by claiming that since there are people who are "doing fine" with her, rest of us should just adapt or git gud even though she is made obsolete by other dps/cc frames. and now i do wonder where you will move the goalpost next. actually, no. i do not.

the point here is, why? numerically she is obsolete. her numbers on her abilities are simply bad and  every dps/cc frame is better than her at both of these things and most of them do more than just those two. gyre has only these two things and she is meh at both of them when compared to her competition. this isnt just an opinion, its just what it is. either prove that she is not worse than her competition with actual numbers of their kit like how game balance is actually done, or just let me know that you are not interested in doing that so i will know not to waste more of my time here. 

Warframe isn't a race to see who can out do frames and pit them against each other.

Can you help explain why Gyre needs Spores or a defense dome or 150 base Crit chance? 

Why are you using words like "numerically obsolete" in such an easy game? 

Is the game easy and powercreeped or is it not? 

Can you help explain why Gyre needs omg elite stats? Is there some mission you're having trouble with? 

[Zeclem]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Warframe isn't a race to see who can out do frames and pit them against each other.

Can you help explain why Gyre needs Spores or a defense dome or 150 base Crit chance? 

Why are you using words like "numerically obsolete" in such an easy game? 

Is the game easy and powercreeped or is it not? 

Can you help explain why Gyre needs omg elite stats? Is there some mission you're having trouble with? 

okay, thank you for letting me know that you have no interest in an actual debate and would rather commit ad hominems and strawmanning people. have a nice day.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

21 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

okay, thank you for letting me know that you have no interest in an actual debate and would rather commit ad hominems and strawmanning people. have a nice day.

Just a reminder that there was also an arcane released recently that gives you 300 Crit chance as well. 

The game wants you to mix and match abilities, arcanes, teammates' abilities, operator abilities, and even specters can help you out. 

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

5 hours ago, quxier said:

 

alternatives being better does make it obsolete, which is bad. 

Some abilities/frames may be worse (e.g. less damage, more energy drain) but can have something subjectively better.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Just a reminder that there was also an arcane released recently that gives you 300 Crit chance as well. 

The game wants you to mix and match abilities, arcanes, teammates' abilities, operator abilities, and even specters can help you out. 

And the same game does this:

- sentinels dies - kill yourself

- want loot - use certain abilities, Carrier/Looter etc

Game randomly adhere to this "mix and match" rule. Some stuffs works for some reason and some are not usable (e.g. cannot mod Tenet Exec slam wave too much; damage types of abilities are not changeable via other abilities (Gyre + Nourish is nothing interesting).

Just saying.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

45 minutes ago, quxier said:

Some abilities/frames may be worse (e.g. less damage, more energy drain) but can have something subjectively better.

And the same game does this:

- sentinels dies - kill yourself

- want loot - use certain abilities, Carrier/Looter etc

Game randomly adhere to this "mix and match" rule. Some stuffs works for some reason and some are not usable (e.g. cannot mod Tenet Exec slam wave too much; damage types of abilities are not changeable via other abilities (Gyre + Nourish is nothing interesting).

Just saying.

I was referring to things like having Gyre and Harrow in a team to increase weapon DPS. 

Loot already drops....but yea if you want more of it you'll have to buy a booster and use certain frames. Nothing new there...

 

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I was referring to things like having Gyre and Harrow in a team to increase weapon DPS. 

Loot already drops....but yea if you want more of it you'll have to buy a booster and use certain frames. Nothing new there...

 

I mean gathering loots (destroying containers and vacuuming it).

[CaptainShortbus]

Gyre is another cool frame (like Yareli and Hydroid) that is fun to play, but does not work. It has nothing to do with the frame design, just some basic tweaks and adjustments with numbers and properties. Protea (which is a good frame) feels like the same type of wack design that only works because she has a 3 second shield gate, and both damage abilities scale. Keep Protea in mind with the next few points.

Gyre Passive: Nice idea of building electric status to make abilities crit. Problem is, 2x, 3x, 4x of non-scaling damage is still non-scaling damage.

Gyre Ability 1: Cool idea of throwing a stationary sphere down to build up electrical status. The ability doubles in damage if it his a certain number of enemies, but why not make this add 100% damage every time it does damage to an enemy like Protea's artillery? It even has the same 3 charge maximum!

Gyre Ability 2: This feels fine to me as a "CC" ability but has the same issue with little to no damage. Adding something like a defense reduction would be nice, feels like too much overlap with the first ability.

Gyre Ability 3: This is really nice, I appreciate this ability. Makes energy economy good, and the added crit chance is nice. Besides that - quite lackluster. Why not just make the crit additive for both weapons and abilities?

Gyre Ability 4: Odd ability. Again, making the abilities crit does not really accomplish anything since the damage does not scale, and this offers nothing to survivability.

Gyre feels like a high speed and high damage glass cannon, with too much glass and not enough cannon.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I mean gathering loots (destroying containers and vacuuming it).

Xaku and Limbos 4 break containers, and if you run quick fissure missions like captures, you'll get all kinds of stuff along with relic parts. It'll add up quickly. 

I'm at 50 amber stars and 450 cyan stars.

[Zeclem]

9 hours ago, quxier said:

Some abilities/frames may be worse (e.g. less damage, more energy drain) but can have something subjectively better.

except gyre has nothing of that sort. she has meh damage, meh cc and nothing else. her competition frames are better than her in both of those, and often have more than just those.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, Zeclem said:

except gyre has nothing of that sort. she has meh damage, meh cc and nothing else. her competition frames are better than her in both of those, and often have more than just those.

Agreed.  When I look at Caliban's 4, I think yeah, its damage falls off pretty fast.  But it remains relevant for its defense-strip AOE, so it's still a great ability.

 

...and the only thing really propping his kit up, lol.  I know Caliban gets criticized because his 1 is awful and his 3 didn't deliver on people's summoning fantasies, but he's still in a better state than the recent frames surrounding his release.  It's pretty easy to draw comparisons between Gyre and Zephyr (crit boost, weapon buffing, enemy grouping) and see that Zephyr outperforms her.  Similarly it's easy to draw comparisons between Yareli and Nezha (weird mobility, tanking, chip damage, CC) and see that Nezha outperforms Yareli.

 

Frames need to be relevant, among other things, and not immediately outclassed upon release.  Nor should they outclass another frame, like Khora did with Hydroid when her farming augment came out.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

except gyre has nothing of that sort. she has meh damage, meh cc and nothing else. her competition frames are better than her in both of those, and often have more than just those.

Damage is ok. Not sure about CC (when she cannot kill that strong unit).

However she is kind of fun. Her 2nd can be detonated in the air (too bad we cannot throw it like 1st). Her 4th let me play single target to kill more enemies. She is kind of fun.

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Xaku and Limbos 4 break containers, and if you run quick fissure missions like captures, you'll get all kinds of stuff along with relic parts. It'll add up quickly. 

I'm at 50 amber stars and 450 cyan stars.

Gyre's 4th breaks container as well (not sure how effective she is against Xaku/Limbo).

It's another "pick this or you are in bad situation". Why we even have to equip (mod, frame, companion etc) to pick stuffs. Why we have to pick Ayatan stars. I have fun leisurely looking for Voidplumes but this "kill/destroy all stuffs" thing just makes it worse.

18 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Agreed.  When I look at Caliban's 4, I think yeah, its damage falls off pretty fast.  But it remains relevant for its defense-strip AOE, so it's still a great ability.

...and the only thing really propping his kit up, lol. 

Except you cannot use 4th while using 1st. So you have to constantly turn on & off 1st ability (or don't use it). That's why I feel it's "bad".

27 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I know Caliban gets criticized because his 1 is awful and his 3 didn't deliver on people's summoning fantasies, but he's still in a better state than the recent frames surrounding his release

Sevagoth is clunkier than Caliban.

However Yareli is better because she can use all abilities (not helminth...) but Caliban cannot. So, imho, she is better.

And Gyre? I can use all her abilities. Her 3rd has great energy economy (assuming you kill enemies). And her most kit feel powerful enough.

IMHO, Yareli, Caliban, Sevagoth where bad frames (with some nice abilities). Gyre broke the "bad frame strike" giving us coherent frame with enough power.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, quxier said:

Except you cannot use 4th while using 1st. So you have to constantly turn on & off 1st ability (or don't use it). That's why I feel it's "bad".

That is a really unusual criticism of the ability.  There are very few abilities in Warframe that you can cast while maintaining another one, especially if you do not include constantly draining buff abilities like Ivara's 3 or Equinox's 4.  To me, a better comparison of what you're asking for is like Hydroid's 3 and how he can still use his other abilities while in this state.  Such a change would improve Caliban's 1, to be sure, but I still don't think I would bother using it.  It has a steep list of weaknesses:

• high energy cost
• low damage
• small area for damage
• awkward/clunky/bad mobility
• leaves you exposed

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

That is a really unusual criticism of the ability.  There are very few abilities in Warframe that you can cast while maintaining another one, especially if you do not include constantly draining buff abilities like Ivara's 3 or Equinox's 4.  To me, a better comparison of what you're asking for is like Hydroid's 3 and how he can still use his other abilities while in this state.  Such a change would improve Caliban's 1, to be sure, but I still don't think I would bother using it.  It has a steep list of weaknesses:

• high energy cost
• low damage
• small area for damage

By enabling Caliban to use 4th while using 1st (Razor gyre) it makes "more damage". Add some damage (not that much) and/or status effect (without status it needs a lot of damage) and you have ability that can kill something (maybe not SP but that depends on changes).

9 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

•  
• awkward/clunky/bad mobility
• leaves you exposed

For me mobility is fine and it has small CC.

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

Damage is ok. Not sure about CC (when she cannot kill that strong unit).

However she is kind of fun. Her 2nd can be detonated in the air (too bad we cannot throw it like 1st). Her 4th let me play single target to kill more enemies. She is kind of fun.

fun is too subjective to balance around. no frame should be obsolete from the get go, and gyre is among that lengthening list.

33 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Agreed.  When I look at Caliban's 4, I think yeah, its damage falls off pretty fast.  But it remains relevant for its defense-strip AOE, so it's still a great ability.

...and the only thing really propping his kit up, lol.  I know Caliban gets criticized because his 1 is awful and his 3 didn't deliver on people's summoning fantasies, but he's still in a better state than the recent frames surrounding his release.  It's pretty easy to draw comparisons between Gyre and Zephyr (crit boost, weapon buffing, enemy grouping) and see that Zephyr outperforms her.  Similarly it's easy to draw comparisons between Yareli and Nezha (weird mobility, tanking, chip damage, CC) and see that Nezha outperforms Yareli.

Frames need to be relevant, among other things, and not immediately outclassed upon release.  Nor should they outclass another frame, like Khora did with Hydroid when her farming augment came out.

honestly, i think even caliban is in that list in my opinion. if you want a frame that wants full strip, xaku and nyx are better options overall. xaku can cover a larger area for longer with gaze, and nyx has nice and spammy bolts. both of these frames comes with other things on top of that strip as well.

[sunderthefirmament]

30 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

honestly, i think even caliban is in that list in my opinion. if you want a frame that wants full strip, xaku and nyx are better options overall. xaku can cover a larger area for longer with gaze, and nyx has nice and spammy bolts. both of these frames comes with other things on top of that strip as well.

Fair, but I think they're all useful in different situations.  What I like about Caliban's 4 is the chokepoint effect.  I like to lay it down in corridors and entries to protect a disruption conduit or defense objective.  I know that any enemy coming through is going to be turned to wet paper by the time they reach me.  Xaku can do the same, but Xaku is so strong with their 2 that I can't always find a target for the 3.  And it's slower, and more vulnerable to nullification.  And Nyx is spammy, sure, but the targeting is wonky at times.  They all excel in different areas.

 

I will agree that overall Xaku is a much better frame than Caliban.  I'm not going to say that about Nyx, though, mainly because her Assimilate playstyle never clicked with me as being even remotely enjoyable.  And CC isn't really in a wonderful spot right now.

 

All of that said, I wouldn't be opposed to DE revisiting Caliban.  I don't think he deserves all of the hate he gets, but he could certainly use some tweaks.

[quxier]

57 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Damage is ok. Not sure about CC (when she cannot kill that strong unit).

However she is kind of fun. Her 2nd can be detonated in the air (too bad we cannot throw it like 1st). Her 4th let me play single target to kill more enemies. She is kind of fun.

fun is too subjective to balance around. no frame should be obsolete from the get go, and gyre is among that lengthening list.

1. That's why you give many options and don't make blatantly boring abilities that you press X to kill enemies (Xaku's Grasp of Lohk, Yareli's Aquablades - with augment this ability is different).

2. You make abilities usable all of the time (e.g. Gyre has just cooldown but easily avoided; on other hand Caliban's Razor gyre (1st) cannot use his 4th).

3. Abilities shouldn't be clunky to use (e.g. Sevagoth should use 1+2 together because one ability is weak, his "meter" had to be full etc)

Her having less damage is not making her bad she has enough damage. She is better than "bad" because she has (2) & (3). She has some of (1) but that's subjective (someone may don't like some features) and too much features is not good as well.

[Zeclem]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

1. That's why you give many options and don't make blatantly boring abilities that you press X to kill enemies (Xaku's Grasp of Lohk, Yareli's Aquablades - with augment this ability is different).

2. You make abilities usable all of the time (e.g. Gyre has just cooldown but easily avoided; on other hand Caliban's Razor gyre (1st) cannot use his 4th).

3. Abilities shouldn't be clunky to use (e.g. Sevagoth should use 1+2 together because one ability is weak, his "meter" had to be full etc)

Her having less damage is not making her bad she has enough damage. She is better than "bad" because she has (2) & (3). She has some of (1) but that's subjective (someone may don't like some features) and too much features is not good as well.

none of these are real arguments about gyre's obsolence. she very much is. yeah, sure, you can consider her "fun" and that is all fine and good but why should i use her over zephyr or garuda or khora, all dps frames that i find fun as well and are significantly better than gyre?

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Fair, but I think they're all useful in different situations.  What I like about Caliban's 4 is the chokepoint effect.  I like to lay it down in corridors and entries to protect a disruption conduit or defense objective.  I know that any enemy coming through is going to be turned to wet paper by the time they reach me.  Xaku can do the same, but Xaku is so strong with their 2 that I can't always find a target for the 3. And it's slower, and more vulnerable to nullification. 

i find Xaku's 2 to be only good in damage against fully stripped enemies personally. but i also have to say if your 2 is that strong, do you really need the defense strip anyway?

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And Nyx is spammy, sure, but the targeting is wonky at times.  They all excel in different areas.

she aims about a cone in front of you. it can be wonky at times yeah but thats why the spamminess is nice. but i agree that its more of a personal preference at this point.

3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I will agree that overall Xaku is a much better frame than Caliban.  I'm not going to say that about Nyx, though, mainly because her Assimilate playstyle never clicked with me as being even remotely enjoyable.  And CC isn't really in a wonderful spot right now.

nyx also has decent utility and damage in her 1 ever since they changed it. and even with the situation that cc is in, nyx's cc is still fine. overguard does not really matter much since chaos also makes every afflicted unit to draw aggro from every other unit, even the non affected ones.

[SneakyErvin]

Gyre is bad. Her kit scaled well pre-nerf, but after the nerf she is just another frame relying on a single buff in her kit in order to utilize weapons. At which point you likely get more use out of Chroma with combat discipline or Rhino, since both have far higher survivability without needing shieldgate cheese. Or if you want a squishier frame that increases weapon damage massively there is always banshee.

[quxier]

17 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

none of these are real arguments about gyre's obsolence.

Those are important aspects of playable character. Maybe you don't care about those but others care about it.

27 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

why should i use her over zephyr or garuda or khora, all dps frames that i find fun as well and are significantly better than gyre?

Zephyr:

- reduced gravity (you can turn it off but you are loosing 1 slot for +15% strength)

- crits only for secondary

Khora:

- whipclaw uses statstick

Garuda:

- holding (1 & 4 afair) just to get more damage is boring

 

If I want to use my Kuva Chakharr then I wouldn't use Zephyr but something like Garuda (+100% damage afair) or Gyre with a lot of strength. Zephyr's passive would be useless for Chakharr as it's not secondary.

 

[Zeclem]

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Those are important aspects of playable character. Maybe you don't care about those but others care about it.

every warframe has them though, it does not make gyre special or not-obsolete. she does not have some new and original mechanic in her kit that makes her more playable.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Zephyr:

- reduced gravity (you can turn it off but you are loosing 1 slot for +15% strength)

- crits only for secondary

reduced gravity is a massive boon because she is untouchable when she is in the air and far more mobile than any other frame, and her crits are not for only her secondary. she has an augment that only buffs her secondary weapons but thats not crit. maybe try to learn what the game mechanics are before you judge them?

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Khora:

- whipclaw uses statstick

i dont, and my khora still scales pretty high up in steel path endurance missions.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Garuda:

- holding (1 & 4 afair) just to get more damage is boring

you dont have to "hold" anything. they have changed how those abilities work. if you consider tapping 4 to get more damage as boring, then that applies to gyre as well and you would be hypocritical.

besides, "boring" is very subjective. idk why you refuse to understand that fact.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

If I want to use my Kuva Chakharr then I wouldn't use Zephyr but something like Garuda (+100% damage afair) or Gyre with a lot of strength. Zephyr's passive would be useless for Chakharr as it's not secondary.

again, you should learn more about how other frames work before commenting on balance issues where other frames will be compared to one another. 

[sunderthefirmament]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Zephyr:

- reduced gravity (you can turn it off but you are loosing 1 slot for +15% strength)

- crits only for secondary

I think you're thinking of Yareli.  Zephyr's passive is a crit boost while airborne.  Yareli's is a crit boost to secondaries while moving.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

every warframe has them though, it does not make gyre special or not-obsolete.

Every? Let's take 3 frames before Gyre.

Yareli:

- cannot use helminth abilities while on merulina

- forced usage of Merulina (abilities are more clunky to use without Merulina)

Caliban:

- Cannot use 3rd & 4th while using Razor Gyre (1st)

Sevagoth (not all):

- one ability does nothing without other (don't remember which one, I just spammed 1+2)

- full meter to transform to Shadow (compare it to better Baruuk's)

- healing ability that bounces you from enemies

 

Gyre doesn't have such big issues.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

she does not have some new and original mechanic in her kit that makes her more playable.

I think CC in the air is new.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

if you consider tapping 4 to get more damage as boring, then that applies to gyre as well and you would be hypocritical.

When Gyre stands still to boost her damage (excluding activation)?

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

besides, "boring" is very subjective. idk why you refuse to understand that fact.

I get that. You just wanted reasons not to play something. I'm giving you valid but maybe subjective reasons.

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

20 hours ago, quxier said:

If I want to use my Kuva Chakharr then I wouldn't use Zephyr but something like Garuda (+100% damage afair) or Gyre with a lot of strength. Zephyr's passive would be useless for Chakharr as it's not secondary.

again, you should learn more about how other frames work before commenting on balance issues where other frames will be compared to one another. 

Oh, sorry, I mistake augment for 2nd ability for passive. The augment is for 2nd-ary only.

With the augment I wouldn't use Zrphyr with Chakharr.

20 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I think you're thinking of Yareli.  Zephyr's passive is a crit boost while airborne.  Yareli's is a crit boost to secondaries while moving.

with Airburst_Rounds

[sunderthefirmament]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

with Airburst_Rounds

Fair.  The way you phrased it originally made it seem as if you didn't understand Zephyr's passive.

 

"- crits only for secondary"