AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[trst]

Having hoards of enemies to fight isn't what makes the game unique, it's the mobility and immense variety of options.

The melee nerfs did nothing to impact it's performance aside from killing spin builds. Overguard didn't nerf abilities, it inconvenienced the CC component of abilities. The only AOE mod being nerfed (currently) is Firestorm. And killing with AOE isn't the problem, it's that AOE is so much more efficient that it forces out all other options from being viable without playing solo.

 

At this point it seems like the ones that need to actually play the game is the players against AOE nerfs. Put down your crutches and actually use something that doesn't nuke a room with each shot. Then try and taking it into a pub and experience how anyone abusing an AOE weapon/build can take virtually all of your gameplay opportunity away.

[TARINunit9]

47 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Pretty self explanatory, Mirage + AoE = Even bigger boom.

I don't follow the Mirage Meta, so I honestly don't know what build you're talking about. Her normal clones? They shoot at the same spot she shoots; so that's not a bigger explosion, just a triple explosion. Her Explosive Ledgerdemain? I've heard Mirage mains worrying the upcoming changes will heavily nerf it indirectly

[0_The_F00l]

49 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

"Automated", well isn't everything?

Any video game you play, based on memory, is repetition. Enemies do the same, spawn the same etc. You click the same buttons, aim at the same angle, use the same rotation of abillities, time the movement the exact same everytime.

Even games that have 'dynamic' spawns, left4dead, swat 4, FEAR, it is still just repetition, but with more variables.

Un-automated gameplay, is strictly about developers and engineers not being able to create AI, and so all video games are simple, relatively dumb, predictable... and automated.

You would need a true AI, that can improvise and re-write itself, for a video game to be dynamic. Until then, video games are the definition of automation.

Bots are stupid exactly because they are only automated, whereas the brain can adapt and improvise indefinitely. That's video games in a nutshell, per definition.

Pretty sure the Devs are concerned about automation that happens within the game system , not repetitive behavioral that happens outside of the game.

And no repetition is not the same as automation,

The fundamental argument here is flawed.

49 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Then ruining a bunch of weapons, people spend time and money on, is going to change all that, and balance the whole game?

Its a start , and lets not exaggerate , it only reduces peoples willingness to take you seriously, There is a difference between being ruined and being less effectively,

49 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

People just move on to the next thing that dominates all the subpar items, the developers are responsible for creating, in the first place.

Even if every weapon and frame ability and mod, were precisely balanced, someone is always going to be the better player anyway.

What are we doing here, comforting players that didn't get exactly 25.0% of the kills, because they play Inaros?

Isn't it "disruptive" to low MR players, that you have better stats through mods and weapons then?

What if you know the game better than other people, found all the caches, you are disrupting my game!!!!!1

And it isn't disruptive to grind out 5x versions of the zarr, re-level it 5 times with forma bought with plat, only to have it deleted? That is not disruptive?

lol...

 

They dont plan on making everything equal , they want to reduce the difference between the outliers.

And yes actually , i do think they should change the matchmaking to pair players of somewhat similar power levels together. That cant happen until the power levels are regularized,

Having more power is fine , it is part of progression , having the same power available for each and every instance is the issue.

And nobody is deleting any weapon , really , stop with the hyperboles , it does not help your argument.

49 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

It's a co-op game, where the objective is to grind.. a lot. How can anyone possibly be upset people are doing as much damage as possible, as fast as possible, except the developers, of course they'd like to forever increase the grind, because profits right.

But between the players the door swings both ways, sometimes you get carried and sometimes you have to put up with people, it's a give and take.

If people are that vulnerable, they have the option of making their own groups or playing solo.

Isn't that what the developer apologist always tell us, just play something else if you don't like it!!!!1

Not everyone enjoys sitting on their asses while someone else plays the game for them, some people actually enjoy the experience of pairing up and contributing. If the contribution is taken away so is the fun for such players. Not everyone has the "as long as i get the reward i dont care" mentality that you seem to have. 

I agree there will be give and take , but if only one person gives and everyone else just takes all the time it is going to make people lose interest.

Better matchmaking is definitely something i think DE should look at as well , so that i can avoid those play styles i don't enjoy being around without having to wait longer than the mission time in recruit.

49 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

It all falls back on the developers, to create meaningful gameplay, that supports all weapons classes, frame classes, damage types, stances... amps, you name it.

What gameplay reason is there, to equip a pistol with 6 rounds in the clip? That's a developer created problem, or unresolved design concept, that should have been thought of, before adding pistols to the game.

Why are there pistols in the game?

Everything is - just damage - by lack of a deeper design, that isn't the zarr's fault, or the fault of the wuclone, or the fault of the players, trying to reduce the grind.

It's the developers' fault.

They need to face up to that reality, before the game can move forward. Deleting AOE, isn't magically going to add validation and depth to the game, where there isn't any.

 

You can lid your car on fire, but it doesn't mean you will be any happier taking the bus to work, does it?

Can't add by subtracting, that's Lego School math.

 

Too bad we dont have a time machine .

And seriously mate , have you even seen the proposed changes, feels like you are just complaining because nerfs of any kind would make your weapon radioactive or something?

The whole point of these changes is exactly to get the design back to an acceptable level so that using pistols actually makes sense.

And you can add by subtracting if its a negative number , that is actual mathematics, look it up or ask your teachers,

Maybe get a refund from your lego school if thats what you have been taught.

31 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

I don't think these AoE changes are even gonna affect AoE at all. Ammo mutation fixes everything they're about to do, as does cautious shot, and even if you don't have room for both, yes you do, because carrier+ammo case exists. Worst case scenario, ammo pizza's exist, and there is a blueprint to make 100 large ones at a time.

What WILL work then?.... ADDING SELF DAMAGE BACK.

Why will it work? Because you won't be able to just go crazy shooting massive explosions everywhere without harming and/or killing yourself. The risk of harming yourself, makes you think and strategize about how to, and when to best use AoE weapons.

No amount of low ammo capacity, no headshots, or self staggering will fix AoE weapon usage, players already have contingencies for all of those problems, and almost all of those contingencies are easy to acquire without spending a single plat.

The moment these changes go live, people will likely swap from using wukong clones, to using mirage clones, rendering the firestorm changes utterly redundant, and making AoE an even bigger problem then it is now.

Sure , there are ways around it , and DE may add more changes if the current proposal doesnt do enough.

Thats why i think its a good first step at least,

 

[Joezone619]

23 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't follow the Mirage Meta, so I honestly don't know what build you're talking about. Her normal clones? They shoot at the same spot she shoots; so that's not a bigger explosion, just a triple explosion. Her Explosive Ledgerdemain? I've heard Mirage mains worrying the upcoming changes will heavily nerf it indirectly

Ahh, well you see, they don't actually shoot the same spot, they shoot flat-straight in the same direction. Combine that with Heavy Calibur, or Magnus Force for pistols, which increase damage and decrease accuracy, and it wont matter even if they did shoot the same spot, because inaccuracy basically gives anything shotgun spread, explosions everywhere.

Mirage's clone damage are based on power strength, which has a cap that can be surpassed with the augment mod for that ability, and do not rely on power range in the least, allowing someone to just add Narrow Minded for all the duration they need, and then max out power strength to the cap, with the remaining slots for efficiency and boom, you now have pretty much a nuke with legs.

In short, wukong is the most popular stupidly powerful AoE frame, not the only one. Making changes to stop the AoE for wukong, doesn't fix AoE, it just moves it to another frame. Mirage isn't even the only option here either, Equinox has an augment that makes your 1st ability split in two, giving you a spectre much like wukong, not to mention Excalibur Umbra.

[TARINunit9]

6 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Ahh, well you see, they don't actually shoot the same spot, they shoot flat-straight in the same direction. Combine that with Heavy Calibur, or Magnus Force for pistols, which increase damage and decrease accuracy, and it wont matter even if they did shoot the same spot, because inaccuracy basically gives anything shotgun spread, explosions everywhere.

Mirage's clone damage are based on power strength, which has a cap that can be surpassed with the augment mod for that ability, and do not rely on power range in the least, allowing someone to just add Narrow Minded for all the duration they need, and then max out power strength to the cap, with the remaining slots for efficiency and boom, you now have pretty much a nuke with legs.

In short, wukong is the most popular stupidly power AoE frame, not the only one. Making changes to stop the AoE for wukong, doesn't fix AoE, it just moves it to another frame. Mirage isn't even the only option here either, Equinox has an augment that makes your 1st ability split in two, giving you a spectre much like wukong, not to mention Excalibur Umbra.

OK I do agree that Umbra might become Wukong 2.0 (especially with the massive survivability buffs they gave to Z-kids) but I don't think Mirage is going to be a problem, not with the priorities the devs have right now. To repeat myself:

The point of the upcoming AoE nerf isn't to actually balance explosive weapons. It's to make it harder for Wukong to play the game while AFK.

Mirage can't AFK like Wukong can

[(XBOX)Kuhl MC]

Hmm, I'm highly against putting self damage in the game again, because there are so many weapons right now, which have a little AoE upon impact, that those weapons would become suicidal under certain circumstances (most noticable: teammates running in front of you, or your own pets). I remember one instance, where I laid down my 9000+ HP Inaros in under 1 sec. just because an Infested brawler jumped in front of my Zhuge Prime while shooting at a different enemy, I don't want to see crap like that ever happen again, tbh.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

There should be more of an element of risk then just running out of ammo. 

I'm all for self damage returning just means you need to actually think before pulling the trigger again.

[Skoomaseller]

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Agreed. I do think self stagger should not have a way to be removed completely though. At the least, place the maximum reduction at 50%.

I disagree, although I can see why you would say that (balance mechanic).

I think self stagger should have a way to be negated, but only via Cautious Shot. SF/PSF should not cover self stagger induced by explosive weapons in my opinion.

[Mr_MR5]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

What's probably not shown is the massive HORDE of enemies that spawn in higher levels that suspiciously don't show up in these 'Test' images.

Like how is there only ONE enemy being hit in those gifs? In Kuva Survival, a level 30 non steel path mission by the by, you start the survival with a hallway filled with those cloned suckers. Like even when I saw the Devstream, I was confused how they were doing the shoot the floor to kill...

One Corrupted Lancer.

We don't do the AoE to ki one guy, we do it to kill the 20 others that fill the room.

 

in the top gif you need to look at the mini map to see the enemy represented by red dots disappear each time the kuva zarr trigger is pulled, the enemy are most definitely there but you can't see them when the player is looking at nothing but the floor,

the second gif you only need to look at the red numbers popping up on the screen every so often to see when an enemy got whipped and killed through a wall, (can't use the mini map to see the red dots because the players companion is dead)

you are correct saying AoE isn't used to kill one guy, but saying "we do it to kill the 20 others that fill the room" is a kind of half truth but with a smile on your face because we all know its being used to clear the entire mission map regardless of whether it has one room or ten, and there is nothing wrong with that, killing stuff in this game is fun.

but because it's been used this way in random squads it's upset not just some but a lot of players because they want to kill stuff too, hence the reason why DE are showing the (STOP THAT! YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG WAY) hammer.

 

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Went through the patch notes , no actual changes to the size was observed. They did change how it interacts with surfaces at one time. 

Not everything makes it into the patch notes. The whole change to appearance was never mentioned, yet it clearly happened.

[Mu_hanbai]

 I am a single player, I often play alone or with a friend. I can't imagine that if I don't use AOE weapons when I play alone, it will waste me a long time, because the enemy won't wait for you to aim at them during the mission. When you aim carefully, the enemy often has caused a lot of damage to you. However, for various reasons, the player often can't solve the enemy very quickly, So I think AOE weapons are valuable and efficient and helpful. i think Developers should not target a class of weapons, such as AOE weapons, but a class of on hook players who do not contribute to the mission and only enjoy the results of other teammates，It does not refer to the player who has no team contribution because he cannot kill the enemy, but refers to the player who hangs up after calling the avatar or phantom after entering the mission。

[Surbusken]

If you check the clip with pablo arguing against 'automation', which by way has a completely different meaning for 'automation of game design', making it unfortunate to use, which you can google by yourself, I am rather confident, what you will see is exactly repetition, as well as what is being argued semantically.

 

... not that it carries in further weight in so far as the point.

What I am saying is, the game lacks depth in concept, beyond just damage. Whatever items you nerf, whatever label you put on the nerf in rationalization of it - does nothing to counter the problem at hand.

Are you spamming 'e' to melee, because they nerfed AOE, or are you spamming 'mb1' because they nerfed melee speed?

Didn't change the fundamental problem, did it?

 

That's like thinking, you somehow magically can dodge the problems of the game, by denying what automation means.

Sure okay, great! Automation means something completely different, totally removed from the subject.

Now, what problems in-game went away, when you spammed up the forum with that? Zero.

 

Same with the Lego school math, are you arguing there are minus weapons in the game? So if we delete more weapons, the game will have more weapons?

I mean, this hilarious idea of word splitting is going to buy an argument for you.

What was the point being made? Think bro, think.

 

The point is the point and the problems are the problems. That's the exact point, of my point, lol.

You can't delete some random weapons and think it's going to fix the conceptual problems, which I'd call 'lack of concept'.  

 

Why would you use a pistol, if you have a rifle, why would you use a rifle, if you have AOE weapons.

For instance in metal gear solid, the pistol is the only silenced weapon and used for stealth. Rifle is used for assault. Boom, a concept. Both have a role. Elementary video game stuff, right?

That's how you normally create a video game. You structure an item around the gameplay point.

You don't add k-drives first and the sit there 4 years later wondering what the hell the point even was, no one ever brought it up.

Concept of gameplay first.

And we are now 8 years in, without one, 'beta forever', so there will be no complaining of not living up to the vision.

Let's just throw random items in there, see if anything sticks, sort it all out later. Later is now though, it is now much, much later, lol...

[K0bra]

Hello

Short question maybe i missed it or idk.

What will happen when you equip for example the Kuva Ogris on Railjack Crew?

Will they run out of ammo? Do you have to feed them too?

This would be horrible and actually hurt the gameplay.

When you drive your ship and you have crew members set to defenders and they run out of ammo. There would be no defense.

I hope they consider or considered it and leave it as it is now.

 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Not everything makes it into the patch notes. The whole change to appearance was never mentioned, yet it clearly happened.

Could be , but i have a 8 forma catchmoon (and another 3 foprma one) that i still use regularly and i never noticed a change to the actual size of the hitbox, so from personaly experience i never saw it happen , nor can i find any reference to it.

And i will take my experience of this over a guy that doesnt even use the gun in question (not you the other guy).

22 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

If you check the clip with pablo arguing against 'automation', which by way the has a completely different meaning for 'automation of game design', making it unfortunate to use, which you can google by yourself, I am rather confident, what you will see is exactly repetition, as well as what is being argued semantically.

... not that it carries in further weight in so far as the point.

i actually saw the whole thing live. Repetition is rather broad , but still requires human intervention  , automation requires no human intervention after initial setup.

And there are nuances to this, i think you are overlooking the part where specific parts of the game can be automated and other parts can still be manual,

In this instance it is the ability to do damage to enemies that is automated.

27 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

What I am saying is, the game lacks depth in concept, beyond just damage. Whatever items you nerf, whatever label you put on the nerf in rationalization of it - does nothing to counter the problem at hand.

Are you spamming 'e' to melee, because they nerfed AOE, or are you spamming 'mb1' because they nerfed melee speed?

Didn't change the fundamental problem, did it?

I agree , the fundamental problem is that the Devs make difficult grinds and then provide tools to bypass it or automate it and then are relatively surprised that players use it. But thats a vicious spiral , if you keep giving bigger and better boomsticks the grind will only get worse.

This change is a good step to slow it down and hopefully with more changes it can be made manageable - notice how the newest frame will actually be free , so no need to even grind for it along with guaranteed rewards for the weekly sortie so there is no longer a need to do it as fast as possible.

You are complaining about the system but you arent seeing that there are more changes planned.

32 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

That's like thinking, you somehow magically can dodge the problems of the game, by denying what automation means.

Sure okay, great! Automation means something completely different, totally removed from the subject.

Now, what problems in went away, when you spammed up the forum with that? Zero.

i dont understand this, the forums are intended as a platform for discussions and collaboration , so that everyone can share their views , just like you are doing now. i want those that read to know where my preferences and opinions lie. Staying silent would be like not casting votes.

So yeah , not sure why you are against discussions on the topic.

34 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Same with the Lego school math, are you arguing there are minus weapons in the game? So if we delete more weapons, the game will have more weapons?

I mean, this hilarious idea of word splitting is going to buy an argument for you.

 

Yes, the weapons which are the outliers, those that remove the reason for using any other weapon are these "negative weapons" you yourself mention it.

35 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Why would you use a pistol, if you have a rifle, why would you use a rifle, if you have AOE weapons.

Exactly so. And now you will have a reason for both rifles , AoE and pistols , cause you will have limited ammo for each.

36 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

The point is the point and the problems are the problems. That's the exact point.

 

You can't delete some random weapons and think it's going to fix the conceptual problems, which I'd call 'lack of concept'. 

 

What are you even talking about , "the point is the point" i dont think even you know what the point is. You are just some guy that dislikes any nerfs and cant see anything past it , even if the nerfs are very minor.

39 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

For instance in metal gear solid, the pistol is the only silenced weapon and used for stealth. That's how you normally create a video game. You structure an item around the gameplay point.

You don't add k-drives first and the sit there 4 years later wondering what the hell the point was, no one ever brought it up.

Concept of gameplay first.

And we are now 8 years in, without one, 'beta forever', so there will be no complaining of not living up to the vision.

Oh wow , be perfect from the beginning why didnt anyone else ever think of that, any changes added should only make things more perfect! Bugs shouldn't be fixed , they should never exist other wise you need to leave them as is.

Really dude , this is a laughable thought process to have.

I absolutely agree that the core concept should be clear , and DE has fallen short many times , but that is not an excuse to stop changes.

 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

crew has thier own ammo as they are not directly tied to you just a fill in for other players who are absent.  so I imagine they will still have infinite ammo like Wukong close used to

[Venus-Venera]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb K0bra:

This would be horrible and actually hurt the gameplay.

yes. that makes them completely pointless. because aoe weapons are rubbish without sp arcane in my opinion! and i don't even want to know which joker came up with the idea in the first place. because where was the problem? does gyre with 100 armor not die often enough per minute on sp vs ranged? my gyre can't even survive 5 seconds. so everything is going according to plan?

the same with almost all archguns. there is no point in using them without a dispensary.

[trst]

I assume they'll still have infinite ammo. Though from my experience it wouldn't matter, I don't use AOE weapons on mine and they can hold a ship just fine. Worst case you can just toss them something with a better ammo economy.

As for on-call crew they'll probably also keep their infinite ammo as well. As they're already limited with their 3 minute duration and 10 minute cooldown.

 

But nobody knows anything other than what was mentioned in the Devstream. Gonna have to wait for the actual patch/workshop for details.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Joezone619:

 

What WILL work then?.... ADDING SELF DAMAGE BACK.

Why will it work? Because you won't be able to just go crazy shooting massive explosions everywhere without harming and/or killing yourself. The risk of harming yourself, makes you think and strategize about how to, and when to best use AoE weapons.

and don't forget team damage!
if a teammate is killed, they may complain or start kick vote.
after 2 complains player gets kicked and can't join games for 24 hours.
after 5 complains player can't play warframe for a week!
everything is logged and after 10 complains player can only play with new players for 3 months (mr1 to mr3). and in the forum or in the chat it will be written in red after his name: TEAMKILLER!

[RichardKam]

Update not dropped yet and people already complaining. 

Reb and Pablo have stated very VERY clearly, they are bringing Warframe back to the good old days of aim and shoot. Of engagement. No more spamming abilities and void dash. No more afk and auto aim. No more "shoot Zarr at that general direction and kill everything". No more automation. 

Hence the gentle nerf of AoE. Hence the 3x headshot multiplier. Hence Critical Precision on Tiberon. Hence the armor strip rework.

You need to look at the game as a whole instead of just AoE. We have AoE nerf, but when the great work is done, we don't NEED AoE. We are moving to the golden age of Warframe. The best is yet to come.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

This is how Warframe is special and different from Destiny2, Division2, or any other shooters.

But DE nerfed melee mods, nerfed abilities by overguard, and will nerf AOE mods, but encourages killing so many mobs one by one with common guns.

DE devs must play Warframe with non-AOE guns and feel how much not proper common guns is in Warframe missions.

I got away from AOE weapons long ago and even mainly use the Felarx which is primarily just a standard shotgun with no aoe damage at all.  even ran a SP survival with no problems will into level 250+ levels before I left just becasue had to leave the house and my playtime was up.  I easily could of kept going.  the precision weapons can do just as much damage per single target as the aoe weapons if properly modded all aoe weapons are is a lazy/eazy mode.  Frames have crowd control abilities for a reason and have largely not been used anymore simple because of the aoe lazyness.  people cry they are breaking the game I say try actually play the game way its intended and stop being lazy.  THe number of things this breaks is very limited mainly specific modes like the MR 30 test where you have lots to kill in very limited time.  That took me months of trying every build and set up that anyone claimed down to exact same mod setups they claimed worked to pass the test.  finally found that Wukong using the Bramma and a SP viably built mele weapon was the only one of all of them that still worked after various changes to game since the MR 30 test was added

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

Not quite , the missions kind of react to how you play (outside of specific missions like defense and those with specific modifiers) , kill a bunch of enemies at the same time and a bunch of enemies spawn at the same time , kill enemies one at a time and enemies will spawn one at a time.

DE has indeed made it this way , and they are planning to change it further, but they need to change some of the systems for them to get there.

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

This is how Warframe is special and different from Destiny2, Division2, or any other shooters.

Warframe is special because of many reasons , putting everything on killing hordes in a blink , is quite unfair to the rest of the capabilities of the game and not the whole truth.

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

But DE nerfed melee mods, nerfed abilities by overguard, and will nerf AOE mods, but encourages killing so many mobs one by one with common guns.

And teh previous nerfs did not destroy the game, it only changed the meta , and the same i going to happen again.

And they are changing only one AoE mod , the rest are changes related to ammo.

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

DE devs must play Warframe with non-AOE guns and feel how much not proper common guns is in Warframe missions.

I play with non AoE guns and i can manage most content (not always easy). I suggest you broaden your horizon and try other things as well.

8 hours ago, Voltage said:

I just discussed this with a friend as well who really enjoys where AoE gameplay has gone (old players all know there's always been a flavor of AoE in our major builds). I asked them a simple question.

Do you really enjoy the gameplay, or just reducing the time between loading into a mission and seeing an extraction/mission results screen?

I think many players who favor specifically playing this way are likely to admit that the game in between nuking entire tilesets at a time is not interesting to them anymore, but they are still stuck in the hamster wheel of rewards, dopamine, FOMO, and sunk cost fallacy about the game. I know it's a broad stroke to apply to many opinions that want the current AoE situation to be untouched, but I feel this same observation was made by Brozime in his Devstream 163 overview. He talks about how the situation is heavily influenced by the recycling of defense/mobile defense objectives. When you introduce a mission like Void Flood, Void Cascade, or Disruption, things like Wuclone abuse or random AoE weapon spam just aren't as compelling, especially in the scaling department, because other options will actually be better suited for the objective.

Yeah , though not all , most that are against any changes dont actually want to play the game , they want to skip as much of the game as possible.

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mu_hanbai:

 I am a single player, I often play alone or with a friend. I can't imagine that if I don't use AOE weapons when I play alone, it will waste me a long time, because the enemy won't wait for you to aim at them during the mission. When you aim carefully, the enemy often has caused a lot of damage to you. However, for various reasons, the player often can't solve the enemy very quickly, So I think AOE weapons are valuable and efficient and helpful. i think Developers should not target a class of weapons, such as AOE weapons, but a class of on hook players who do not contribute to the mission and only enjoy the results of other teammates，It does not refer to the player who has no team contribution because he cannot kill the enemy, but refers to the player who hangs up after calling the avatar or phantom after entering the mission。

you won't get far without a top aoe weapon. you will run into problems very quickly and too many missions will be unplayable.
and even if you manage to get a maxed khora you will hardly win a mob def on sp vs ranged. you will either get energy drained, a nulli with lots of enemies will remove your 4 skill or too many enemies will shoot at you/obj from long range.

For me the whole thing is an epic fail. because even a child would understand that the game will hardly be playable...

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

This is how Warframe is special and different from Destiny2, Division2, or any other shooters.

But DE nerfed melee mods, nerfed abilities by overguard, and will nerf AOE mods, but encourages killing so many mobs one by one with common guns.

DE devs must play Warframe with non-AOE guns and feel how much not proper common guns is in Warframe missions.

Ngl I find shotguns like Cedo to be very fun, so it's definitely not just AoE being usable.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

34 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

you won't get far without a top aoe weapon. you will run into problems very quickly and too many missions will be unplayable.
and even if you manage to get a maxed khora you will hardly win a mob def on sp vs ranged. you will either get energy drained, a nulli with lots of enemies will remove your 4 skill or too many enemies will shoot at you/obj from long range.

For me the whole thing is an epic fail. because even a child would understand that the game will hardly be playable...

How did you play the game before the gun buff again?

[RichardKam]

37分钟前 , Venus-Venera 说:

you won't get far without a top aoe weapon. you will run into problems very quickly and too many missions will be unplayable.

*Meanwhile a youtuber somehow break SP disruption with Nyx mind control thrall one-shooting level cap demolyst"

*At the same time SP mot survival was broken with Ivara Zenistar disc*