AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Corvid]

Given that they specified that it was Wukong's clone that will pull from your ammo pool, I doubt they're going to make it so that all NPCs lose their infinite ammo.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Given that they specified that it was Wukong's clone that will pull from your ammo pool, I doubt they're going to make it so that all NPCs lose their infinite ammo.

Wukong is still directly Tied to you given you share weapons he uses what ever you are not.  Unless you only take the singular weapon.  Crew on otherhand are not only completely separate from you but have no way to directly control them beyond assigning roles.  SO unless they are going to add a universal ammo station accessible only by crew to railjack that you have to micro manage with resources to resupply I dont see them being able to make them have limited ammo

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Update not dropped yet and people already complaining. 

Reb and Pablo have stated very VERY clearly, they are bringing Warframe back to the good old days of aim and shoot. Of engagement. No more spamming abilities and void dash. No more afk and auto aim. No more "shoot Zarr at that general direction and kill everything". No more automation. 

Hence the gentle nerf of AoE. Hence the 3x headshot multiplier. Hence Critical Precision on Tiberon. Hence the armor strip rework.

You need to look at the game as a whole instead of just AoE. We have AoE nerf, but when the great work is done, we don't NEED AoE. We are moving to the golden age of Warframe. The best is yet to come.

I'm all for the notion to bring down AoE a notch, but the "good ol' days of Warframe" was:

• Greedy Mag pulling all loot to a camp squad
• Mesa just holding the fire key
• Saryn/Ash/Excal insta-nuke
• Mag instakilling literally anything with a shield
• Trinity self-damage nuke with Link
• Telos Boltace 20 meter slash wave on slide attack
• Maiming Strike for ~3 years
• Magus Lockdown scaling %-based puncture grenades on Void Dash
• Synoid Simulor Mirage (arguably as annoying as the current situation given the noise Simulor makes)
• Crowd Controlling entire maps through walls (Prism spam/Stomp/etc.)
• And More

There are many QoL changes in the coming update that are very good, but "we don't need AoE" is a dumb statement. AoE has been a major selling point of every meta since 2013.

[PhiZero]

Honestly from my point of view, it's less about AoE being overpowered, and more AoE being used as a crutch for both poor design choices and ease of use.

 

When the Tonkor was first introduced, it's gimmick was that it could reach 100% critical chance, allowing it to compete in a true damage meta before Warframe found its way in Damage 2.0; where, (I'm definitely misremembering the weapon release order) the Penta at the time struggled to keep up with almost all weapons. Since then, we've gotten a variety of flavors for AoE weapons such as the Ogris with Nightwatch Napalm, the Infested Cernos Family etc.

Though over time, the ease of use for AoE weapons and abilities started to escalate as power creep got out of hand, compounding on itself to create the modern AoE meta. Us as a community failed to realize this, as it was enabling automated gameplay in exchange for maximized efficiency.

 

If I hadn't migrated from PC to NSW due to the pandemic, I'd be inclined to agree with you that the top AoE weapons are mandatory; but, spending 3 years with no AoE weapons while rebuilding my arsenal, single target weapons can 100% compete with AoE even into 2 hour SP survivals, as we have a plethora of methods to alter them into multitarget weapons from operator and warframe grouping abilities, to the honestly kinda nutty value Primed Shred that I slept on for years.

Though the other issue that I believe Pablo brought up is the Weapon Usage Chart, where I recall that he stated the top 5 were AoE weapons standing at aroubd 47% weapon usage; which in itself is worrisome as it implies weapon diversity is dead in the water.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Its simple, 

1. Make the AOE range to have a "stamina bar". The more you shoot, the less range of AOE each shots would be since they would lose "stamina" and then you would have to let it charge to get its full range again. So let's say it needs 4 or 5 seconds to reach full range AOE again. That means players won't be able to spam consistent explosion each shots unless they wait until the stamina full again.

 

2. To compensate the AOE nerf, we give them damage buff, launchers like tonkor or zarr should get a damage buff while they are at the lowest or empty AOE stamina. This will force player to have 2 playstyle with 1 weapon: at full AOE stamina: tactical playstyle. At depleted AOE stamina: precision playstyle. That buff will be gone once the AOE stamina refills. 

So, do you prefer tactical boom or precision slug shot? 

 

3. There should be a clear indicator of the range stamina,  like the operator energy (circle) . The circle would be divided by several sections which represent the range percentage for each shots. For example, 1st shot (100% range), 2nd shot (50% range), 3rd (25%), 4th (12%) 5th (0%). This is just an example, it could be 100%,40%,16%,0%, or something else, etc. 

Note: this idea reserved only for AOE that doesn't require charge before shoot. 

[Numerounius]

I don't think they said anything

But I do hope they give the same treatment to Wukong Clone to all allies like equinox clone from duality or Railjack Crew Members or sentient frame

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb (PSN)ATreidezz:

Its simple, 

1. Make the AOE range to have a "stamina bar". The more you shoot, the less range of AOE each shots would be since they would lose "stamina" and then you would have to let it charge to get its full range again. So let's say it needs 4 or 5 seconds to reach full range AOE again. That means players won't be able to spam consistent explosion each shots unless they wait until the stamina full again.

 

2. To compensate the AOE nerf, we give them damage buff, launchers like tonkor or zarr should get a damage buff while they are at the lowest or empty AOE stamina. This will force player to have 2 playstyle with 1 weapon: at full AOE stamina: AOE playstyle. At depleted AOE stamina: precision playstyle. That buff will be gone once the AOE stamina refills. 

 

3. There should be a clear indicator of the range stamina,  like the operator energy (circle) . The circle would be divided by several sections which represent the range percentage for each shots. For example, 1st shot (100% range), 2nd shot (50% range), 3rd (25%), 4th (12%). This is just an example, it could be 100%,40%,16%,6%,etc. 

 

it's much easier:
team damage. after teammate kill kick votes and complaints with 24 hour ban. after 5-10 kick votes the player cannot play a warframe for 3 months.

everyone will think twice before continuing to play in pubs with super imba lenz.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb XHADgaming:

I don't think they said anything

But I do hope they give the same treatment to Wukong Clone to all allies like equinox clone from duality or Railjack Crew Members or sentient frame

and don't forget team damage with self kill. after teamkill the player cannot be rezzed for 5-10 minutes.
that is currently the ideal solution in my opinion.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

3 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

it's much easier:
team damage. after teammate kill kick votes and complaints with 24 hour ban. after 5-10 kick votes the player cannot play a warframe for 3 months.

everyone will think twice before continuing to play in pubs with super imba lenz.

 

I... Ok..? 

[CephalonCarnage]

I'm not entirely convinced of many anti AoE arguments. Nor am I convinced that the game will return to the glory days of "target and aim".

the reason is that whilst AoE is often fun, often efficient, the real reason is that it kills so many enemies so quickly. Bramma is not used for its AoE - its used for its huge damage numbers, that also hit everything nearby for even more huge damage numbers. The only AoE guns that are used are those with huge damage. OP damage.

As 2 examples, the Zarr was always a niche weapon that nobody used, until the Kuva Zarr with its buffed stats arrived. (175 base dmg v 673). The Bramma has a 3.5m radius. The Shedu has a 6.6m radius. One of these is meta - its not the one with the huge AoE. Its the one with 839 base dmg compared to 87 base dmg.

Enemies were buffed to cope with the big boom weapons - not because of AoE but because the damage inflicted by them is so obscene.

So AoE is just a scapegoat for other design flaws that are not being addressed (or they are, but not yet communicated to us, such as nerfed high level enemies, reduced numbers of enemies etc).

 

The reason I think nerfing AoE by itself will have no impact on the game is that you look at the game before these big boom weapons were prevalent - the meta was melee. you could shoot things and were laughed at because the cool kids were basically being a one-man AoE slash machine with their kronen or nikanas. If AoE gets nerfed too much, I expect melee to become the old, new meta to replace it. All because its not AoE that matters, its that huge damage.

[Mr_MR5]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Update not dropped yet and people already complaining. 

Reb and Pablo have stated very VERY clearly, they are bringing Warframe back to the good old days of aim and shoot. Of engagement. No more spamming abilities and void dash. No more afk and auto aim. No more "shoot Zarr at that general direction and kill everything". No more automation. 

Hence the gentle nerf of AoE. Hence the 3x headshot multiplier. Hence Critical Precision on Tiberon. Hence the armor strip rework.

You need to look at the game as a whole instead of just AoE. We have AoE nerf, but when the great work is done, we don't NEED AoE. We are moving to the golden age of Warframe. The best is yet to come.

warframe back in the good old days was me with my 500 round penta competing with random embers or saryns seeing who would get the most kills and i would hold up quite well  (big cheesy grin on my face) unless a particular tileset popped up with THE WALL we had to run cross which 90% of the time (well maybe 40% but in this story im saying 90% for dramatic tension) would result in me (being rhino) running out of stamina 2/3rds the way across and falling off,

but not to my death 'oh no no no'! it would trigger an endless loop of me falling off the wall over and over and over,

Ahhh! "just type /unstuck noob" i here you say, well looky here /unstuck hadn't been invented yet em k,

this game wasn't even a year old before some form of AoE was king and if this games history (almost 10 years) is anything to go by, next month wont be the end of it,

and just so y'all know snipers and bows have been my weapons of choice for kills since the traumatic, life altering day DE needlessly and heartlessly reduced the penta's ammo pool from a healthy 500 to a headache inducing 20, the audacity!  i could have died you know, oohhhhhh my back ouch hurty!!!!!!

got to go hospital now bye

[Numerounius]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)ATreidezz said:

1. Make the AOE range to have a "stamina bar". The more you shoot, the less range of AOE each shots would be since they would lose "stamina" and then you would have to let it charge to get its full range again. So let's say it needs 4 or 5 seconds to reach full range AOE again. That means players won't be able to spam consistent explosion each shots unless they wait until the stamina full again.

That is such a good idea. I thought this was going to be another AOE post in the sea of AOE posts but this actually pretty clever and in-line with making a reasonable suggestion with any design values that might exist like how DE wanted the newer AOE weapons to more focused on the boom moment rather than the constant spam.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb CephalonCarnage:

The reason I think nerfing AoE by itself will have no impact on the game is that you look at the game before these big boom weapons were prevalent - the meta was melee. you could shoot things and were laughed at because the cool kids were basically being a one-man AoE slash machine with their kronen or nikanas. If AoE gets nerfed too much, I expect melee to become the old, new meta to replace it. All because its not AoE that matters, its that huge damage.

mele is almost for all warframe suicide on sp and most likely sentinel is dead fast 3 times in a row.

and if you mean that 3 people with kuva zarr does more damage than saryn.....

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb XHADgaming:

That is such a good idea. I thought this was going to be another AOE post in the sea of AOE posts but this actually pretty clever and in-line with making a reasonable suggestion with any design values that might exist like how DE wanted the newer AOE weapons to more focused on the boom moment rather than the constant spam.

i want to see you spamming with bramma on sp.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

mele is almost for all warframe suicide on sp and most likely sentinel is dead fast 3 times in a row.

and if you mean that 3 people with kuva zarr does more damage than saryn.....

someone said that every post you make is aggressive, and whether you were OK. This kind of response make me think they are right. What's with the stupid gif? Or the comparison to Saryn? Melee is still a viable option and was the only way to beat SP until the relatively recent changes that nerfed it and buffed guns with the galvanised mods.

So please, stop with these kind of replies.

[Merrcenary]

I have a better idea: DE should just visit the wiki about their own game more often and normalize the stats

from kuva zarr wf wiki

Цитата

Higher base damage per projectile (673 vs. 175) (individual damage types below exclude any Progenitor bonus)

so instead of a changes and nerfs to several game mechanics they could just lower damage (because now it is almost 6 times higher than the normal version of the weapon)

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

18 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

i want to see you spamming with bramma on sp.

You never seen celestial twin or umbra with kuva bramma before? 

[Numerounius]

23 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

i want to see you spamming with bramma on sp.

And what does that have to do with the suggestion? 

[Proscriptor]

this makes no sense from an in-world perspective. how do rockets/grenades/whatever in your magazine have stamina? i'm strongly against this as i like immersion. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb XHADgaming:

And what does that have to do with the suggestion? 

if you don't want to understand it, it's up to you. I don't mind.
the fact is that it does not work and cannot work. Of course you don't want to provide proof.
but to each his own. bye Bye!

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, Proscriptor said:

this makes no sense from an in-world perspective. how do rockets/grenades/whatever in your magazine have stamina? i'm strongly against this as i like immersion. 

Its basically a way to force players to use the AOE tactically instead of just spam it everywhere bcos its easier that way. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Proscriptor:

this makes no sense from an in-world perspective. how do rockets/grenades/whatever in your magazine have stamina? i'm strongly against this as i like immersion. 

above all, there are skills like dispensary...

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

On the point of the Catchmoon nerf, since other people have been arguing points about it:

I never said the size of the projectile was changed (while it very well may have been), but that was what initially caused me to like it. The nerf was the effective range of the weapon which essentially made it melee range, like Destiny shotguns. I melee primarily anyway, and my melee is stronger than my Catchmoon... so why in the world would I choose to shoot a weaker weapon at enemies instead of swing my melee that I have fun doing?

Yes, I have the range extending thing in the weapon's "exilus" slot. I still don't use it. It doesn't help make my gameplay any more fun. I prefer melee. It's not better than that for how I play. Thus, I don't use the Catchmoon. Nerf accomplished: I don't use it anymore.

 

EDIT:
The niche cases in which I pull out my catchmoon include:
Arbitration, to knock out the drones in large groups of enemies, due to its punchthrough and how enemies bunched up around it can block my movement into melee range.
Rarely, I'll use it to kill an Ancient Healer that also has a mass of infested around it which block my approach with melee. I mostly just use aerial slam attacks in those cases... but I thought I'd list it here, because it's "a" use for the catchmoon.

Otherwise... absolutely useless to me and how I play.

 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

would be much more effective to just revert the self damage change and make people have to go back to being carefull where they aimed thier aoe weapons.  and would 100% adress the issue that caused them to want to nerf them to begin with.  and that revision is likely to be happening as I dont see the first set of changes to have the desired effect as too many ways to get arround the ammo change with consumables or dispensary/ lavos being able to transmute ammo into universal

1 hour ago, (PSN)ATreidezz said:

Its basically a way to force players to use the AOE tactically instead of just spam it everywhere bcos its easier that way. 

the old self damage system did that already

[Voltage]

I'm open to exploring the best ways to reduce the problem, but a hard no on anything related to Stamina.