Wukong was unfairly targeted with a nerf, change my mind.

[BethTheBean]

Good morning.

As we all know by now, DE "reworked" Wukong because he promoted automated play. This was then "discussed" in Devstream 164...

I threw up a little.

I'm going to say it, straight out. THIS IS BULL ! I've seen Khora players sit on their bums, under the strangledome, and let their X-number of pets & specters just wipe the room. Octavia can go stealth with a bop or two, or leave the room, while her disco-ball-of-death wipes it. Even Umbral players can solo some endless missions with their warframe/specters/pets, while the operator sits in a corner.

Hell, anyone who figures out how to run the correct specter/ pet combos is going to solo missions. Maybe not as efficient in SP, but it's still doable.

This smells of favoritism, similar to when Ember was "reworked" ( which later backfired ) because her 4th could wipe a map - even though Banshee and Equinox could do it too - and hit the floor above and below - and got augments. When the player based questioned it, DE was unprofessional in deleting comments and placed bans on the forum and in-game chat.
It only became 110% worse during a TennoCon ( before Covid ) where a cosplay contestant came with a gorgeous Ember Prime costume. EVERYONE drooled over the damn thing, and we couldn't get enough of it on social media.  Guess what? She lost to someone in a cardboard box ... The internet and live chat exploded, accusing DE of hating Ember and praising the woman with "you should've won". The forums and chats went stupid, and DE started placing bans. 

It seems wiping the map is accepted, unless you're using Ember. Or automated play is accepted, unless you're using Wukong. Favoritism has to stop. No excuses.

I love DE, and hopefully they know that, but I walked around Wukong's "rework" just by using a Protea specter. I never soloed or "automated" in a mission. My build buffs the group - warframes/specters/pets/etc. Don't crap on me, or the whole player base, because a handful of people decided ( maybe reported ) to be jerks.

🖖







 

[EdinaMonsoon]

but you have to repress the mentioned warframe's abilities in order to wipe the room and some have energy drain, octavia even more so because you have to perform actions on beat to trigger her invisibility etc. that's not automation

wukong had the issue of his clone handling all the work without anymore player input required because it was coupled with the AOE meta, as shown in the footage during the devstream. all they did was give the clone your ammo pool and nerfed his damage, which i think is perfectly fair.

it's crazy the clone had infinite ammo in the first place and the majority of players are doing enough damage without a celestial twin in every piece of content in the game so the damage nerf is irrelevant. what also sets wukong apart is how astronomically popular he became after his rework and will likely remain the most used warframe

not sure what all that ember drama has to do with anything tho, you do you

[--END--Rikutatis]

Tbf I do think Octavia has always been enormously boring and overpowered in the afk farming playstyle. The only drawback she has which is moving on beat can be cheesed with specific tunes. She's another frame that lets the game play itself for you, she just isn't as disruptive to other player's experiences as AoE launchers were more recently, so I guess she doesn't attract as much negative attention. Plus having to spam crouch may be a bit too annoying for many players. But I definitely think Octavia's mix of invisibility, energy regen and passive CC + scaling damage is just over the top. I guess there's just been so much excessive power creep recently, that it doesn't feel as overpowered anymore. 

[gamingchair1121]

in my opinion he got a buff. the clone nerf didn't do too much and his 4 got a buff. I'd say his 2 needs a nerf still, surprised they didn't do anything to it.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

9 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

all they did was give the clone your ammo pool and nerfed his damage, which i think is perfectly fair.

There is an issue with what they did that you (and DE) are choosing to ignore though - specters (including the monkey clone) having infinite ammo has been covering up the glaring issues with all specter AI in Warframe.

The biggest issue of all is that specters do not understand the concept of weapon range - they will choose a target and fire in its general direction, not caring whether or not the bullet/beam has the range to hit the enemy. This has the effect of wasting tons of ammo for absolutely no real reason. With infinite ammo, that bug was not really affecting gameplay - but now it does, making the clone pretty much unusable on larger tiles.

And then there is the positioning specters choose. On smaller tiles, specters are prone to not noticing some parts of the environment and keep firing from effectively around the corner (with little success). This is not as bad as the "fire out of range" issue -  since the player moving forces the clone to reposition itself frequently. But again, a bug whose effect was mainly visual due to infinite ammo is now affecting gameplay.

There can absolutely be a valid argument to limit specter ammo. But only after fixing the bugs that the infinite ammo pool is obviously compensating for.

35 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

wukong had the issue of his clone handling all the work without anymore player input required

Then why not fight automation by actually fighting automation? From the ability description in-game:

Quote

Wukong creates a twin to fight by his side. Attack at range and the twin will melee, pull a blade and the twin will lay down covering fire.

so make the clone do what the description says! Just have a very strict inactivity timer: "clone only fires if the player has hit an enemy in the last 5 (maybe 10) seconds". As long as you are active, the clone does its job. As soon as you try to go afk - the clone stops.

[EdinaMonsoon]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

so make the clone do what the description says! Just have a very strict inactivity timer: "clone only fires if the player has hit an enemy in the last 5 (maybe 10) seconds". As long as you are active, the clone does its job. As soon as you try to go afk - the clone stops.

fully agree here, other spectres and companions go into rest mode if you afk for a minute or 2, i don't see why wukong's clone should be an exception since the clone is a free spectre

kinda weird how they targeted ammo across the board (which affected everybody instead of just the AOE meta) without trying this first

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I'd still like someone to explain to me what exactly was being "automated" and how.

People AFK fissures and get reactant at the end in any frame.  At least if they're doing this in Wukong they get to extraction faster.

People leech resources and XP in any frame.  A lot of us even let this happen, depending on circumstances.  

If they are leeching in a squad with a Wukong, at least they are contributing some minor amount while being luggage.

If they are doing this solo and letting the clone kill and then picking up drops ever so often,

1. It's nearly impossible to keep life support up in a solo survival without Nekros, at least on console, so kudos for overcoming that hurdle
2. They're solo, who are they hurting?  You can't farm anything that's tradeable while being solo and AFK.

I never use AFK farms because they're boring to me, and I'd rather play.  But I cannot actually see what could possibly be automated that would be damaging to the game in any way.  And not a single person has even attempted to answer this question the number of times I've asked it.  There's already tons of systems in place to prevent afk farming of anything even remotely useful.  Wukong did NOT need the nerf he got, but DE is infallible, so everyone is just going to keep parroting their completely baseless argument without actually thinking about it.

[gamingchair1121]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

With infinite ammo, that bug was not really affecting gameplay - but now it does, making the clone pretty much unusable on larger tiles.

then don't use the clone. if youre using wukong there's a good chance you have a bramma too, and the bramma can room clear without any other help needed.

[EdinaMonsoon]

32 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'd still like someone to explain to me what exactly was being "automated" and how.

People AFK fissures and get reactant at the end in any frame.  At least if they're doing this in Wukong they get to extraction faster.

People leech resources and XP in any frame.  A lot of us even let this happen, depending on circumstances.  

If they are leeching in a squad with a Wukong, at least they are contributing some minor amount while being luggage.

If they are doing this solo and letting the clone kill and then picking up drops ever so often,

1. It's nearly impossible to keep life support up in a solo survival without Nekros, at least on console, so kudos for overcoming that hurdle
2. They're solo, who are they hurting?  You can't farm anything that's tradeable while being solo and AFK.

I never use AFK farms because they're boring to me, and I'd rather play.  But I cannot actually see what could possibly be automated that would be damaging to the game in any way.  And not a single person has even attempted to answer this question the number of times I've asked it.  There's already tons of systems in place to prevent afk farming of anything even remotely useful.  Wukong did NOT need the nerf he got, but DE is infallible, so everyone is just going to keep parroting their completely baseless argument without actually thinking about it.

DE showed an example of wukong's twin automating gameplay by effortlessly clearing hordes of enemies with a kuva bramma. there's no other frames where you only need to press 1 button and have you sit there for the rest of the mission

you can farm rare mods and prime parts, standing to buy parts from syndicates to sell or relics

at the end of the day, DE doesn't want you stand there and vacuum up 10 reactant for 5 seconds every 5 waves/minutes either solo or public and they have every right to do so. the point of F2P is to actually play.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Quote

Wukong creates a twin to fight by his side. Attack at range and the twin will melee, pull a blade and the twin will lay down covering fire.

so make the clone do what the description says! Just have a very strict inactivity timer: "clone only fires if the player has hit an enemy in the last 5 (maybe 10) seconds". As long as you are active, the clone does its job. As soon as you try to go afk - the clone stops.

56 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

so make the clone do what the description says! Just have a very strict inactivity timer: "clone only fires if the player has hit an enemy in the last 5 (maybe 10) seconds". As long as you are active, the clone does its job. As soon as you try to go afk - the clone stops.

fully agree here, other spectres and companions go into rest mode if you afk for a minute or 2, i don't see why wukong's clone should be an exception since the clone is a free spectre

kinda weird how they targeted ammo across the board (which affected everybody instead of just the AOE meta) without trying this first

And Wuclone has been doing exactly this:

- when you are shooting it melees

- when you are meleeing it shoots

- 2 minutes (afair) makes clone not move or attack

You could just slash random enemy every few minutes and Wuclone could kill other enemies.

2 hours ago, HealTheirWounds said:

Good morning.

As we all know by now, DE "reworked" Wukong because he promoted automated play. This was then "discussed" in Devstream 164...

You missed the part where Wukong were used too much and by too many frames. It was just too good.

15 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

DE showed an example of wukong's twin automating gameplay by effortlessly clearing hordes of enemies with a kuva bramma. there's no other frames where you only need to press 1 button and have you sit there for the rest of the mission

Maybe not as far as 1 button (I don't remember all frames) but we have frames that just needs to press few keys every minutes or something.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

Maybe not as far as 1 button (I don't remember all frames) but we have frames that just needs to press few keys every minutes or something

SHHH!!!!!! WE dont talk about them!! People cant know, DE will nerf you psycho!

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

28 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

at the end of the day, DE doesn't want you stand there and vacuum up 10 reactant for 5 seconds every 5 waves/minutes either solo or public and they have every right to do so. the point of F2P is to actually play

Very true, greedy pull mag 😭 may you forever rest in peace 😭😭😭 Our times in Venus E Gate will forever be missed

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

Maybe not as far as 1 button (I don't remember all frames) but we have frames that just needs to press few keys every minutes or something

SHHH!!!!!! WE dont talk about them!! People cant know, DE will nerf you psycho!

https://youtu.be/R22S-jKLFzY?t=54 (from 54 second)

Maybe that way they will fix mission not to be 20 minutes of something boring.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

https://youtu.be/R22S-jKLFzY?t=54 (from 54 second)

Maybe that way they will fix mission not to be 20 minutes of something boring.

🤯🔥🔥🔥👏👏👌👌

 

[EdinaMonsoon]

14 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

Maybe not as far as 1 button (I don't remember all frames) but we have frames that just needs to press few keys every minutes or something.

they have timers, cooldowns or energy drains tho. once the clone is out, he has to be despawned or killed

i think the ammo share nerf is perfect and there's no need to nerf wukong any further. once they mentioned wukong would change, i thought they would nerf his 2 too but they buffed his 4 instead

[quxier]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

🤯🔥🔥🔥👏👏👌👌

I guess that's good. I'm not into emoticon-language.

2 minutes ago, EdinaMonsoon said:

19 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

Maybe not as far as 1 button (I don't remember all frames) but we have frames that just needs to press few keys every minutes or something.

they have timers, cooldowns or energy drains tho. once the clone is out, he has to be despawned or killed

Some has so small drain or so big timer that's easy to maintain them

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

guess that's good. I'm not into emoticon-language.

Video blew my mind, was fire, applause, and okay i got the message you were trying to send with the video. I couldnt translate it all into words at that moment sorry lol, i wasnt prepared for all of that. Just shook the heck outta me

Just rewatched the vid like 10 times, i wasnt ready for such a comeback. The video is so good

Its like ouch, but also thank you, i dont know how to feel

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

1 hour ago, gamingchair1121 said:

then don't use the clone. if youre using wukong there's a good chance you have a bramma too, and the bramma can room clear without any other help needed.

So when they nerf Limbo for no good reason (again), you will be happy with the response of "then don't use Limbo"?

The problem with what they did to the clone aren't even the nerfs themselves - it is the long-standing bugs that the nerfs have made gameplay-relevant. Had DE fixed these bugs before (or at the same time as) applying the nerfs - I would have had nothing against the changes (although they do seem a bit heavy-handed). But they have not - hence the criticism.

44 minutes ago, quxier said:

And Wuclone has been doing exactly this:

- when you are shooting it melees

- when you are meleeing it shoots

- 2 minutes (afair) makes clone not move or attack

You could just slash random enemy every few minutes and Wuclone could kill other enemies.

Not quite. Clone melees if you are holding a gun (not necessarily shooting), and clone shoots if you are holding a melee weapon (not necessarily hitting enemies). And the AFK times has to do with the amount of time the player is not moving (vs not attacking enemies). This is precisely what allows for the automation, and this is what needed to be fixed if DE were really going for AFK farmers.

Make the clone only attack if you are attacking too (with a tiny grace period) - and most of the automation methods will go away. Making Wukong move a bit (to beat the current AFK timer) is trivial to automate. Making him constantly target and attack enemies - much less so.

[quxier]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Not quite. Clone melees if you are holding a gun (not necessarily shooting), and clone shoots if you are holding a melee weapon (not necessarily hitting enemies). And the AFK times has to do with the amount of time the player is not moving (vs not attacking enemies). This is precisely what allows for the automation, and this is what needed to be fixed if DE were really going for AFK farmers.

Make the clone only attack if you are attacking too (with a tiny grace period) - and most of the automation methods will go away. Making Wukong move a bit (to beat the current AFK timer) is trivial to automate. Making him constantly target and attack enemies - much less so.

Pick any high range weapon, slap some range, slam attack constantly. Not that hard.

If they want some specter like to be active not afk then they would need to take into account your damage. Clone would "more or less" double it.

They could even do "command mode" like with Khora's Vernari.

[gamingchair1121]

38 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

So when they nerf Limbo for no good reason (again), you will be happy with the response of "then don't use Limbo"?

i said "don't use the clone" not "don't use wukong"

also when was the last time limbo was nerfed? wasnt that scarlet spear?

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

Pick any high range weapon, slap some range, slam attack constantly. Not that hard.

If you mean melee - then you'd need to be letting enemies get far too close for consistent automation. If your attack is killing them - the clone is playing no role here, no adjustments to clone necessary. If your attack is not killing them - then they'll just kill you eventually (remember: we are not using Inaros)

If you mean ranged - then you'll just be the one running out of ammo, no limits on clone ammo necessary. Also, this would lock the clone to melee (unless you go for the "only equip one gun" shenanigans) - and specters aren't exactly great with melee weapons.

In either case, you''ll need some fairly advanced scripting to automate the process - advanced enough for the script to be easily detectable.

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

If they want some specter like to be active not afk then they would need to take into account your damage. Clone would "more or less" double it.

This seems like a very nice approach - as long as the scaling is done on total damage within a reasonable timeframe (e.g. clone DPS = average warframe DPS over the last 30 sec.)

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

35 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

If you mean melee - then you'd need to be letting enemies get far too close for consistent automation. If your attack is killing them - the clone is playing no role here, no adjustments to clone necessary. If your attack is not killing them - then they'll just kill you eventually (remember: we are not using Inaros)

Zenistar disc have 4 meters (if I read it right). Add 5 meters (2 mods). If that's not enough then use some OP's arcane that pulls enemies in.

 

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

2 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

also when was the last time limbo was nerfed? wasnt that scarlet spear?

I would say Scarlet Spear was the last truly egregious Limbo nerf so far ("We have a time-limited Mobile Defence event and lots of people use the best Mobile Defence warframe. It clearly needs to be nerfed forever!"). But I would also count the Eximus rework as a significant (and unwarranted) nerf to all CC warframes, Limbo among them.

[gamingchair1121]

Just now, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

But I would also count the Eximus rework as a significant (and unwarranted) nerf to all CC warframes, Limbo among them.

not sure how the other cc frames are doing because limbo is my only cc frame i regularly use, but if you know what you're doing as limbo you dont even die to eximus.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

Zenistar disc have 4 meters (if I read it right). Add 5 meters (2 mods). If that's not enough then use some OP's arcane that pulls enemies in.

 

Not saying it's impossible - just saying that we are starting to get into more complex scripting that need to be aware of what's around you (which way are you throwing the disc? Are you staring into a dead-end corridor, with all the enemies behind you? Remember: all factions have units that can move you around, even with Primed Sure Footed).

6 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

not sure how the other cc frames are doing because limbo is my only cc frame i regularly use, but if you know what you're doing as limbo you dont even die to eximus.

Sure. And you can still survive with Wukong, even in large tiles and against eximus. Does that mean there wasn't a nerf? Or that the nerf was appropriate for its stated goal? Or that it made the game in any way better?