Stamina Bar for Rolling (Proper Dodge Mechanic)

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

Summary of idea: This change works as a compliment to shield gating, allowing players another way to survive off skill as opposed to durability. Felt needed even more since eximus rework

Rolling right now doesnt really serve much purpose outside of making frames with slow movement abilities like Mesa Waltz and Nyx Assimilate move faster. Especially when it comes to performing things like back flips, so i wanted to introduce something that may be kind of cool to not only give them more use but opens up more ways for us to combat enemies. Which is making it an effective dodge mechanic to set up counters and strategies with.

Doesn't Rolling Guard already do this?

Rolling Guard is a nice mod but it isnt one i ever see anyone use effectively. Which made a lot of sense after trying it myself. 3 seconds is hardly enough time to make use of any real attacks, and the 7 second cooldown leaves one dangerously vulnerable still after you have taken out 3 enemies during those 3 seconds or tried to replenish your shields. Thus why im making a more interactive system that should allow frames more room to play around with it

Rolling and Backflipping Changes

Performing a roll or backflip will now grant the player 100% evasion for 1.75 seconds, allowing you to effectively dodge enemy attacks and keep putting on pressure on enemies, however; it will end up costing you stamina. The average warframe will have 100 base stamina points where normal rolls will cost you 25 stamina points, side rolls cost 18.75 points (3/4), and backflips will just cost you 12.5 points (1/2). Stamina recharges at a rate of 25 points per second after a 3 second delay of your last roll or backflip. 

(For those worried about lost of mobility, sliding will be boosted to give you same speed as rolls gave. )

The evasion can protect you from everything except certain attacks like melee attacks, floor hazards such as lava pools, and knockdowns to name a few, that will all still deal damage to you if you do not avoid them (DE can expand on this). So you will still have to stay on your toes with certain enemies, and make sure youre using your stamina points wisely to keep yourself alive.

This could create 7-15 seconds of Invincibility. Isnt that too much?

It really depends on how youre using it, as if you use it too often you could end up with only 1.75-3.5 seconds of invulnerability every 4 seconds, due to enemies constantly attacking you from all directions. It can get quite hectic if you are surrounded and need more time to counter attack enemies if you have been too careless with your stamina bar. So theres still plenty of time for deaths and mission failures if one isnt careful enough.

Overall Its trading unengaging durability only gameplay to more skill based gameplay, just as shield gate added. Such change would shift meta, but it wouldnt kill off other meta options, rather add to them. Just as getting a new warfrane would.

On a side note, i do think the overall damage enemies can deal can be more punishing if such change was implemented

How would this improve Warframe?

Currently, the primary way to play warframe is through a method commonly called "cheesing" which is defined as trivializing content to where it requires minimal effort to keep ones self alive. This creates an issue in warframe to where players can get stuck in this endless loop of casting abilities with no real mind engaging factors at play, aka, it can cause boredom and no feelimgs of adrenaline rushes.

This change could allow for players to experience a lot more mind engaging fights where players dont always have to rely on shield gate or very high durability to live. You can set up strategies with dodging, cover, and abilities to negate some of the pressure of having to be so durable or only focus on shield gating. The stamina bar helps keep the mechanic from getting abused too much, allowing tankier warframes to still have moments where they shine where they are able to continuously deal damage to enemies without having to worry about stamina or finding cover.

(I think maybe stamina could recharge faster when you arent moving super fast too, allowing tanky frames to have another advantage since they generally dont have to parkour everywhere, which would allow them to replinish stamina much faster)

New Enemy Designs for more challenging combat can use this mechanic too. Spawning in to try and get you to use up all yout stamina so it can finish you off, but if you are too perfect at dodging, it fails to mess you up and becomes extra vulnerable.

What are your thoughts community? Do you think rolling could use more purpose in the game? And is this fitting enough?

[Merrcenary]

7 минут назад, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim сказал:

Performing a roll or backflip will now grant the player 100% evasion for 1.75 seconds

rolling guard exists and it is far better than your suggestions. so i don't see how it would improve warframe

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

rolling guard exists and it is far better than your suggestions. so i don't see how it would improve warframe

Elaborate? 3 seconds is hardly enough time to replenish shields or counter attack enemies? Granted theres often more than 1

[Merrcenary]

3 seconds is definitely better than 1.75 and it also remove all status effect and give you not just "100% evasion" but complete invincibility
and also RG doesn't cripple your movement since you don't have limited stamina

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

and also RG doesn't cripple your movement since you don't have limited stamina

You dont need to roll or back flip to move fast, sliding works just as good

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

5 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

3 seconds is definitely better than 1.75

Also with 4-8 dodges, you will get more than 3 seconds of time to counter attack, more like 7-14 seconds if you can time your dodges well enough

[Merrcenary]

3 минуты назад, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim сказал:

Also with 4-8 dodges, you will get more than 3 seconds of time to counter attack, more like 7-14 seconds if you can time your dodges well enough

15 seconds of invincibility is the last thing this game need

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

9 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

15 seconds of invincibility is the last thing this game need

I disagree, i think less engaging mechanics is the last thing this game needs. The game gets boring not from simply being too easy but from only having players cheese to combat enemy levels instead of using reflexes or skill.

Change above promotes use of reflexes and skill to create difficulty as opposed to leaving cheesing with shield gate and a decaying dragon key as only method of survival. (Eximus sorta took away cc method)

[Pakaku]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Change above promotes use of reflexes and skill to create difficulty as opposed to leaving cheesing with shield gate and a decaying dragon key as only method of survival. (Eximus sorta took away cc method)

Not sure how pressing a key to roll is considered skill, but okay

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Not sure how pressing a key to roll is considered skill, but okay

In skillbased games, pressing a key to roll or dodge at perfect times is described as skill based because it pressures your reflexes and decision making skills. Try those games out if you never have

[Pakaku]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

In skillbased games, pressing a key to roll or dodge at perfect times is described as skill based because it pressures your reflexes and decision making skills. Try those games out if you never have

The problem with that is if you translate that to Warframe, full of mobs of enemies all shooting at you, how do you figure out the "right moment" to dodge and be rewarded. Warframe is too spammy and it would just devolve into rolling whenever. There's no comparable skill when you can just activate it for free whenever you want (and Rolling Guard has this same issue)

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

32 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

The problem with that is if you translate that to Warframe, full of mobs of enemies all shooting at you, how do you figure out the "right moment" to dodge and be rewarded

Most times you can Crowd Control (CC) enemies except for eximus units, moment you see these guys, lose your shields from them, or lose shields from a normal enemy that is too far away to cc, roll asap before your health starts getting depleted. Chain your rolls perfectly to allow yourself to have the maximum amount of time to eliminate the threats and replenish shields. To reduce roll spam mix in some abilities to stop enemies who were once out of range so that you can fully focus on downing eximus enemies or finding cover.

Its best to roll before you lose your shields, because if you mess it all up. You might just die instantly. So be observant of your surroundings best you can, clear eximus, finish objectives.

Lots to do but only 7 seconds to do it all, 14 if you wish to slow yourself down a little with backflips.

32 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Warframe is too spammy and it would just devolve into rolling whenever

It cant, it's purpose of stamina bar and short invulnerability windows, you will need to find other ways to keep yourself alive because once youre out of stamina and have already lost shields, youre toast.

You can try shield gating, but with new eximus changes they can almost completly negate the benefits of shieldgating by removing your shields the moment you replenish them since they cannot be CC'd 

Plus, warframe already has parkour spam as your only choice when shield gate fails you, this just allows you to do something about it instead of becoming a scared monkey desperately jumping all over the place. Trades crazed spam for stylish and skillfull.

Plus plus, you still have all of your old methods of durability and shield gate if trying to dodge is too overwhelming.

 

I feel like its an idea better shown than explained in words. Simple change yet still theres so many details to keep track of that i think its hard to actually imagine the actual combat situations in ones mind. ESPECIALLY if you arent used to not making durable builds only. The amount of stamina and  recovery times only things im feeling iffy about. Warframe is very fast paced and with no places to hide like in open worlds, too long of a cooldown can be devastating to any real use of said idea.

[Vahenir]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Chain your rolls perfectly to allow yourself to have the maximum amount of time to eliminate the threats and replenish shields.

You know you cant attack while rolling right?

In either case the stamina would utterly ruin the standard way of moving fast with bullet jump and rolling in the air. Dodges already give you knockdown immunity and 75% damage resistance during the dodge as well. Other than that 100% evasion does nothing against any enemy attack with AoE to them either. Hence rolling guard with shield gate cheese is just better as its complete immunity and it drops status effects you're affected by. It gives you plenty of time to cast a few abilities to refill your dragon key weakened shields through brief respite and the augur mods or another ability that restores shields directly.

So ultimately your idea would help very slightly, nerf the bullet jump/roll movement combo into the ground and still not do anything to displace rolling guard and shield gate cheesing as the primary meta for surviving on squishy frames.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Elaborate? 3 seconds is hardly enough time to replenish shields or counter attack enemies? Granted theres often more than 1

I don't know how to tell you this, but... yes. Yes it is.

As much as I hate shield gating, and think it's an Exploit created by an unintended interaction with a Gear item that is supposed to be a Nerf to players (and the only reason DE haven't removed it is because they don't know how to make a change to Shields to make them actually viable without it).

As much as I hate it... The idea of pinging back your shields within the Shield Gate time (which is 1.3 seconds) is the entire point of Shield Gating. Rolling Guard has more than double that time and also cleanses you of Status effects which would normally remove your shields again or tick through them.

So, you want to do two things:

1. Re-introduce a Stamina bar (even in a limited sense), something that was deliberately removed from the game because it interfered with the mobility and DE have said they are glad is gone.

2. Make something that is already functional as a free damage reduction and mobility tool, plus a tool used to negate many effects such as latched rollers or Kuva Jesters, or getting through Laser Barriers without getting knocked down (because a lot of people don't have/run Primed Sure Footed), or removing effects of Abilities like the Rift or Speed, into a limited resource.

You are advocating to make what we have worse, not make Warframe better.

I would completely understand this being a mechanic if.

If.

If.

Warframe had any kind of skill-based gameplay. Any kind of need to actually evade and dodge like a slower-paced game, where melee wasn't an AoE tool and where guns could not combo with Abilities to achieve more than 100 Kills per Minute well into the four-digit enemy level.

If Warframe was not designed to have enemies that have no actual interactions with us beyond shoot, hide or use their own single ability.

If enemies were not designed to have a maximum screen time of 0.3 seconds at higher level.

This might even be necessary at that point.

Until those things change, what is the point of putting this in when people can already mod in something that is mechanically better?

And before they have that mod, they are literally taking on content where that kind of mechanic is un-necessary.

Warframe has no difficulty worth putting in this kind of change.

Because, by the time you hit the difficulty that requires this kind of change, you have options that are better than it already in the game.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Re-introduce a Stamina bar (even in a limited sense), something that was deliberately removed from the game because it interfered with the mobility and DE have said they are glad is gone.

Thats not fair comparison, theyre glad its gone because we get to move through the map quickly and this idea doesnt hinder it by such in extreme as youre comparing it to. Low blow, not cool man ._.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Make something that is already functional as a free damage reduction and mobility tool, plus a tool used to negate many effects such as latched rollers or Kuva Jesters, or getting through Laser Barriers without getting knocked down (because a lot of people don't have/run Primed Sure Footed), or removing effects of Abilities like the Rift or Speed, into a limited resource.

Its not like you get latched or knocked every 4 seconds. You have plenty of time to refresh it.

And yes, i making the game less easy. Its easy enough

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Any kind of need to actually evade and dodge

This is ridicuolous, of course theres need? DE didnt add shieldgate for no reason? Theres plenty of moments where you need to avoid damage to deal damage and get back on your feet? 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Until those things change, what is the point of putting this in when people can already mod in something that is mechanically better?

Shieldgate doesnt fully protect you in highlevels anymore, eximus will gun you down. There isnt a mechanically better

Almost wish to ask you to post sp endurance run with banshee. See if you 1 shot enemies and use shieldgate to keep yourself alive. Unless youre camping in a corner or fighting infested, its not going to work out.

And i get DE dont balance around SP but like the only way this game will have enemies that arent 1 shot and can actually use attacks is if theyre buffed a bit beyond sp level or we are all nerfed to where sp levels enemies dont get 1 shot. 

And in reality, DE is never going to fully rework every enemy in the game, so coming up with mechanics that work with what we already have makes all the sense in the world to me.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As much as I hate it... The idea of pinging back your shields within the Shield Gate time (which is 1.3 seconds) is the entire point of Shield Gating. Rolling Guard has more than double that time and also cleanses you of Status effects which would normally remove your shields again or tick through them.

Also no, shield gate do you more favors than rolling guard, its waste of mod slot. Shield gate will grant you much longer invincibility while rolling guard offers extremely brief breathing room thats unnecessary. You can escape with with shield gate as well as you can with Rolling guard, if not better. Status removal only thing rolling guard really has going for it. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Vahenir said:

So ultimately your idea would help very slightly, nerf the bullet jump/roll movement combo into the ground and still not do anything to displace rolling guard and shield gate cheesing as the primary meta for surviving on squishy frames.

De could just buff effects of slide if you guys really are so worried about movement speed boost and DR eventhough DR becomes quite useless highlevels anyways, especially on a roll only

With 7-14 seconds of near complete invincibility, shieldgate and rolling guard is no longer required mods. I already dont use rolling guard or any status effect cleanses and do just fine in the game without it.

Evasion will dodge AoE, i dont see reason for it not too. Its not normal evasion, i think normal evasion actually dodges melee attacks and grapples and what not. 

Mines different:

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

The evasion can protect you from everything except certain attacks like melee attacks, floor hazards such as lava pools, and knockdowns to name a few, that will all still deal damage to you if you do not avoid them (DE can expand on this

 

[Vahenir]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

With 7-14 seconds of near complete invincibility, shieldgate and rolling guard is no longer required mods. I do already dont use rolling guard or any status effect cleanses and do just fine in the game without it.

At best this would make it replace rolling guard in the standard shield gate setup. Like shield goes down, roll twice backwards since its cheapest, use abilities to recover shields and get back to it. At least by how you make it sound it would provide a stacking buff on dodge.

In either case it wouldn't be used reactively to enemies in most cases since there are usually way too many and very few have telegraphed attacks you actually need/care to evade in the first place. So whats most efficient in this scenario? My guess, to simply dodge on cooldown if your frame is tanky-ish or whenever the shield breaks if you use the shield gate. The former would just be incredibly annoying in practice, but it would be the most effective way to use it for maximum damage reduction and the latter is just rolling guard light. If it is a stacking buff you just dodge backwards x amount of times whenever your shield goes down and become invulnerable while it regenerates.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

23 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

At best this would make it replace rolling guard in the standard shield gate setup. Like shield goes down, roll twice backwards since its cheapest, use abilities to recover shields and get back to it. At least by how you make it sound it would provide a stacking buff on dodge.

No it doesnt get stacked, you must shoot inbetween dodges

Before DE made grapples more telegraphed, normal way to telegraph enemy attacks was to prepare on sight. Id evade ancient and scorpion grabs like 90% of the time by rolling before i get within melee range of them.

Eximus dont get cc'd so these guys will destroy your shields often, bout the best it comes to at telegraphed attacks is loosing your shields to notice eximus are a foot and its time to get rid of them, outside of using your eyes. You can swap to melee for added gap closing protection if needed before messing them up.

23 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

The former would just be incredibly annoying in practice, but it would be the most effective way to use it for maximum damage reduction and the latter is just rolling guard light.

Aight well lets just keep shieldgate spam as only defensive move. Best gameplay only option is to spam abilities, no dodge since dr useless highlevels. Idc anymore

[DroopingPuppy]

Roll is inevitable to get rid of the traps Limbo spams. I don't think that set the limit to a function that makes us out of a trap.

[gamingchair1121]

1 hour ago, DroopingPuppy said:

Roll is inevitable to get rid of the traps Limbo spams. I don't think that set the limit to a function that makes us out of a trap.

well if you're actually playing him correctly then you're not spam banishing everyone at every moment you get

it's more of a problem with limbo's trolling potential

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

So we’re going to waste this by moving from objective to objective so when we need to dodge a thing we won’t have the stamina for it?

like I agree with the idea of giving Dodge rolls actual evasion. But this seems really counterintuitive.

[LillyRaccune]

I have some lore problems with warframes having a Stamina Bar. They don't sleep and don't eat. So unless the Helminth chair has other services that aren't advertised... don't warframes have unlimited stamina?

If warframes DO eat, let me know, I'll go on a hunting trip and eat BBQ.

[DroopingPuppy]

1 hour ago, gamingchair1121 said:

well if you're actually playing him correctly then you're not spam banishing everyone at every moment you get

it's more of a problem with limbo's trolling potential

I said get rid of(means get out of Limbo's trap), not keep put the trap(leave the trap on my trail when play Limbo). You need to read my post correctly. It's about how to survive when you encounter an invincible disaster, NOT play a diaster but try not to harm someone.

Rather, when I play Limbo I try not to roll, although it is very difficult because those Limbo cause me to have a havit that constantly roll for nothing again and again. Actually I can't play the game properly without such a habit when a Limbo is on the room so it can't be helped. I have suffered by those roll trap and spamming Banish for years.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I have some lore problems with warframes having a Stamina Bar. They don't sleep and don't eat. So unless the Helminth chair has other services that aren't advertised... don't warframes have unlimited stamina?

If warframes DO eat, let me know, I'll go on a hunting trip and eat BBQ.

While true i needed some sort of limiting factor to keep it from being abused. Maybe operators would have to power the dodge in some sort of way to let it grant you some extra invincibility. Like ability menu button + roll, something like that. 

Idk, i just wanted combat to feel less like you just have to take damage, and have more ways for you to get into thick of it, and fight enemies off midst if battle.

but im over it. Its whatever, will stick to shield gate spam.

I be wanting more ways to fight period though lol, i be coming back from games like devil may cry with tons of ways to attack in missons, and then hit warframe feeling so unnecesarrily restricted. Games are different, that i know, but if DE doesnt mind make warframes combat more interactive than the suggestion to increase its interactivity isnt much of an issue right?

Its whatever tho

Dope looking excal btw.

[LillyRaccune]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

While true i needed some sort of limiting factor to keep it from being abused. Maybe operators would have to power the dodge in some sort of way to let it grant you some extra invincibility. Like ability menu button + roll, something like that. 

That's very reasonable. I didn't mean to shut you down, I was just hyperfocused on that one detail.

20 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I be wanting more ways to fight period though lol, i be coming back from games like devil may cry with tons of ways to attack in missons, and then hit warframe feeling so unnecesarrily restricted. Games are different, that i know, but if DE doesnt mind make warframes combat more interactive than the suggestion to increase its interactivity isnt much of an issue right?

I agree with you. One of the reasons AoE spam is so popular is because it works on every character except boss/mini-boss characters. My background is from Zelda, where you MUST lower the defenses of some enemies (hookshot, boomerange, fire, ice, etc) before you can damage them, while others are immune to some types of damage (eg. slimes can't be harmed by physical attacks (I know that isn't Zelda, just an example)).

Coming up with new ways to combat is an excellent way to support the game! Posting your ideas will eventually reach the Devs. Kahl and the upcoming Duviri are clear examples of the Devs trying to get away from mods and get back into other ways to fight. (yes Kahl still feels exactly the same (but slower) but at least they are trying)