What is “Soulsframe?”

[Felsagger]

26 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

If Duviri us soulslike, then half of all games using melee combat has to be by your standarts. Monster Hunter is soulslike. Chivalry is soulslike. Guild Wars 2 is soulslike. Shadow Warriror 2 is soulslike, etc.

Maybe it's not us who's legally blind but you who's seeing things?

Instead of insulting each other throats plug in the definition of Soulslike. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soulslike#:~:text=Soulslike games are commonly defined,spark players' desire to explore.

That ends all doubts. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you find Duviri punishing, challenging, requires active dodging and stamina management between offense and defense? And here I sit and do a roll here and there to close gaps then cleave or smash Dax with heavy attack spamming with zero decrees in SP.

Yus, clearly soulslike. /s

No I find it tried to be but did a terrible job. A soulslike can fail, just ask the one million clones.

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

If Duviri us soulslike, then half of all games using melee combat has to be by your standarts. Monster Hunter is soulslike. Chivalry is soulslike. Guild Wars 2 is soulslike. Shadow Warriror 2 is soulslike, etc.

Maybe it's not us who's legally blind but you who's seeing things?

Yes, guild wars two is a souls like....... Now we see the real blind ones.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

No I find it tried to be but did a terrible job. A soulslike can fail, just ask the one million clones.

What part in it is soulslike? Since none of the things mentioned exsist in it. There isnt a single part of the concept that has anything to do with soulslikes specifically. The only thing it shares with soulsgames is active dodge and parry, but those arent mechanics exclusive to soulslike games, they are simply mechanics tied to action combat games when it comes to melee in general.

In order for it to be soulslike it needs to be punishing, it needs to be challenging, it needs to promote active dodging and combat resource management. Not only that, but it should preferably also have skill and abilities based on a consumable system similar to souls games. But nothing of that exsists in Duviri and have never even been mentioned as potential parts of it. What Duviri is is a rogue-like-lite, that is it. Something that any game can have in parts or be made up fully, like how you have key dungeons in Grim Dawn (part of the game only) and then Hades on the other side of the spectrum. And WF has always had rogue-lite-like elements in the success vs failure setup for missions, with different modes expanding it further like arbitrations and now Duviri.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What part in it is soulslike? Since none of the things mentioned exsist in it. There isnt a single part of the concept that has anything to do with soulslikes specifically. The only thing it shares with soulsgames is active dodge and parry, but those arent mechanics exclusive to soulslike games, they are simply mechanics tied to action combat games when it comes to melee in general.

In order for it to be soulslike it needs to be punishing, it needs to be challenging, it needs to promote active dodging and combat resource management. Not only that, but it should preferably also have skill and abilities based on a consumable system similar to souls games. But nothing of that exsists in Duviri and have never even been mentioned as potential parts of it. What Duviri is is a rogue-like-lite, that is it. Something that any game can have in parts or be made up fully, like how you have key dungeons in Grim Dawn (part of the game only) and then Hades on the other side of the spectrum. And WF has always had rogue-lite-like elements in the success vs failure setup for missions, with different modes expanding it further like arbitrations and now Duviri.

Rogue like has nothing to do with souls like games. The lock on mechanics literally mimics dark souls and there is a focus on smaller engagements unlike Warframe. As soon as the gameplay came out everyone noticed the similarities. So all of those people are full of bs? Also we still don't know the difficulty of souls frame so we can't use that as a deciding factor. At the very least, and there is alot more, souls frame heavily borrows the asthetics of it's obvious inspiration. Everyone is allowed their own opinion but a few of you seem to be in the minority. Even the name Soulframe is trying to capitalize on that soulslike idea.

[ant99999]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Instead of insulting each other throats plug in the definition of Soulslike. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soulslike#:~:text=Soulslike games are commonly defined,spark players' desire to explore.

That ends all doubts. 

I'm all for following the commonly accepted definitions. And while there are some easy to spot markers mentioned in the article you linked, it also pays a lot of attention to vague concepts of difficulty, player improvement and expectedness of player death, which themselves are rather hard to define.

I mean who knows how much are you expected to die in Duviri? It's certainly a possibility, but it also happens a lot rarer than I would expect even from a non-soulslike, even on Steel Path. Hard to say anything definite here. Same with difficulty.

The article also mentions things like permanent player improvement and upgrade currency abandoned on death and retrieved after, which is a bit more concrete, but still more or less tangential to the actual gameplay of soulslikes. Besides, they aren't exclusive to soulslikes either. The former is also a staple of rogue-lites which may or may not have anything in common with Souls. The latter is a bit more unique to Souls, but still can be found in games like Darksiders.

As for Duviri, well we have Intrinsics, which can be thought of as permanent player improvement. But we don't have any currency lost on death and able to be retrieved later. You can just leave Duviri and retain your intrinsics (I think that's how it works at least). So, 50/50 here.

Probably the most defining thing the article mentions is stamina management. That's one of the core mechanics of soulslikes. Animation priority mentioned there is another defining feature.

And here in Duviri we have more or less animation priority, though not nearly as punishing as in Souls. But stamina is nowhere to be seen. 50/50 again.

So what does it tell us? That, according to this wikipedia article, which has its issues with defining the genre, and ignoring concepts which cannot really be practically defined - Duviri is what, half a soulslike? In other words, nothing definite again. I'm afraid this discussion won't finish this easily.

[ant99999]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Yes, guild wars two is a souls like....... Now we see the real blind ones.

But don't you see?

There are melee weapons in there. Check.

You can dodge roll which gives you i-frames. Check.

There's even a stamina bar! Check.

You can parry there, at least with some skills. Check.

There's even a deplayable item called a bonfire! How about that? (You actually use it to gain some resource gain buffs, but nevertheless it's a bonfire) Now Duviri doesn't have that, does it?

So according to my, totally objective, non-biased criteria, which isn't connected to eyesight difficulties in any way, Guild Wars 2 is clearly more soulslike than Duviri.

 

And if you disagree, I would have to conclude you have gastrointestinal problems, or just don't know what a soulslike is.

 

Edit: also I found it funny that you apparently didn't have any problems with the other examples I gave. So Shadow Warrior 2 is an exemplar soulslike, an ideal follower of Myazaki's game design vision, but Guild Wars 2 is what only a blind person could call one. Ok, great.

[Felsagger]

21 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

I'm all for following the commonly accepted definitions. And while there are some easy to spot markers mentioned in the article you linked, it also pays a lot of attention to vague concepts of difficulty, player improvement and expectedness of player death, which themselves are rather hard to define.

Who define these terms then? 

If the definition is fuzzy and vague then make it precise and exact here in your discussion. You can edit the wikipedia reference if necessary. 

21 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

I mean who knows how much are you expected to die in Duviri? It's certainly a possibility, but it also happens a lot rarer than I would expect even from a non-soulslike, even on Steel Path. Hard to say anything definite here. Same with difficulty.

The article also mentions things like permanent player improvement and upgrade currency abandoned on death and retrieved after, which is a bit more concrete, but still more or less tangential to the actual gameplay of soulslikes. Besides, they aren't exclusive to soulslikes either. The former is also a staple of rogue-lites which may or may not have anything in common with Souls. The latter is a bit more unique to Souls, but still can be found in games like Darksiders.

As for Duviri, well we have Intrinsics, which can be thought of as permanent player improvement. But we don't have any currency lost on death and able to be retrieved later. You can just leave Duviri and retain your intrinsics (I think that's how it works at least). So, 50/50 here.

Probably the most defining thing the article mentions is stamina management. That's one of the core mechanics of soulslikes. Animation priority mentioned there is another defining feature.

And here in Duviri we have more or less animation priority, though not nearly as punishing as in Souls. But stamina is nowhere to be seen. 50/50 again.

So what does it tell us? That, according to this wikipedia article, which has its issues with defining the genre, and ignoring concepts which cannot really be practically defined - Duviri is what, half a soulslike? In other words, nothing definite again. I'm afraid this discussion won't finish this easily.

Of course it makes sense. What you are saying is correct. 

If you have a reference and a good set of criterias, you can spot on if the term is used vaguely. wrongly applied, correctly or misinterpreted. 

DE played safe and distanced themselves from the soulslike approach. Duviri is not a strict soulslike experience. However the name Soulframe is a meme.  

[vanaukas]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The lock on mechanics literally mimics dark souls and there is a focus on smaller engagements unlike Warframe.

 

I guess zelda mimics dark souls! Zelda is a souls like! lmao

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

 

I guess zelda mimics dark souls! Zelda is a souls like! lmao

That's almost as funny as saying guild wars 2 is a soulslike. Fanboys do be fanboys.

[vanaukas]

Just now, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

That's almost as funny as saying guild wars 2 is a soulslike. Fanboys do be fanboys.

Dude, you are the one saying that Duviri is a soulslike, but has nothing of soulslike on it. Lock on system weren't invented by any souls game and neither parry, rolls or blocking mechancis. In fact you can find most if not all Duviri mechanics on any 3d zelda game, which are 3rd person action rpg, which is the foundation for soulslike games (3rd person action rpg).

What makes something soulslike instead ARPG are the punishment mechanics due failing and the "dungeon crawler" mix and Duviri doesn't have any of that.

This is on the same level as calling every open world "gta-like", every soccer game "fifa-like" and so on.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

29 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Dude, you are the one saying that Duviri is a soulslike, but has nothing of soulslike on it. Lock on system weren't invented by any souls game and neither parry, rolls or blocking mechancis. In fact you can find most if not all Duviri mechanics on any 3d zelda game, which are 3rd person action rpg, which is the foundation for soulslike games (3rd person action rpg).

What makes something soulslike instead ARPG are the punishment mechanics due failing and the "dungeon crawler" mix and Duviri doesn't have any of that.

This is on the same level as calling every open world "gta-like", every soccer game "fifa-like" and so on.

We are talking about Soulframe and duvuri.........

Also I'm far from the only one. Once again they literally called it Soulframe but hey that totally doesnt matter. Flat out denying any souls influence is ridiculous and completely wrong.

[vanaukas]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

We are talking about Soulframe and duvuri.........

Also I'm far from the only one. Once again they literally called it Soulframe but hey that totally doesnt matter.

And they also said that wasn't called soulframe for "soulslike", but because the game plot revolves around "souls", just like warframe revolves around "war".

I guess Soulcalibur and Soul Reaver are also soulslike because they have "soul" in the name, right?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

21 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

And they also said that wasn't called soulframe for "soulslike", but because the game plot revolves around "souls", just like warframe revolves around "war".

I guess Soulcalibur and Soul Reaver are also soulslike because they have "soul" in the name, right?

Whatever excuses you need to tell yourself.

[vanaukas]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Whatever excuses you need to tell yourself.

Using literal external sources to back up my arguments are excuses, but making assumptions form thin air aren't?

I'm done here lmao, I'll let other players here reading this to draw their own conclusions.

[Stormandreas]

On 2023-05-23 at 6:04 PM, Felsagger said:

Duviri is not bad at all. Some people liked it. I am sure that the next game DE is making will not be bad either but two GAAS F2P games takes a lot of time I don't have. I barely can play video games lately. 

I mean... it is quite bad. The grind is atrocious and clearly DE just not learning from past mistakes, the controls are clunky and don't translate well to the rest of Warframe, the story is convoluded and confusing not to mention forced in order to explain the drifter, the monochrome-colour aspect (while interesting) is extremely painful to the eyes and ruins the experience (I'm not the only one who thinks this).

There's a lot of bad in Duviri. The good part is the Art and Music

[Stormandreas]

On 2023-05-23 at 6:48 PM, Corvid said:

It's still not a soulslike, and Duviri isn't one either.

Yes... it is... 

DE can claim it's not a soulslike till they are bluer than Ballas, what they have made is a Soulslike in all it's core mechanics. Z targetting, dodging with Iframes, Parry Windows, Enemies with Windup attacks that require appropriate actions to dodge or counter, and very likely, different weapon types that all use unique animations, thus all having different forms of parry windows, Hyper armour etc.

It is a soulslike. Soulslike isn't just hard bosses and environmental storytelling

[Hypernaut1]

I don't even know why people care. So what if it's a "souls like"? Either way, you're going to enjoy the game got what it is, or come to the forum to bash it and complain like your forced to play it. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

58 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Using literal external sources to back up my arguments are excuses, but making assumptions form thin air aren't?

I'm done here lmao, I'll let other players here reading this to draw their own conclusions.

There are many examples of DE being dishonest (not that I care or think it is an issue) but taking their words as absolute truths is an issue and the definition of fanboyism.

[Corvid]

24 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Yes... it is... 

DE can claim it's not a soulslike till they are bluer than Ballas, what they have made is a Soulslike in all it's core mechanics. Z targetting, dodging with Iframes, Parry Windows, Enemies with Windup attacks that require appropriate actions to dodge or counter, and very likely, different weapon types that all use unique animations, thus all having different forms of parry windows, Hyper armour etc.

It is a soulslike. Soulslike isn't just hard bosses and environmental storytelling

Let me guess, you're the newest person to join in and regurgitate this nonsense, regardless of the fact that it has already been refuted many times over (including the fact that the traits you listed apply to almost every game in the hack-and-slash genre, soulslike or not).

I'm not wasting my time further repeating what has already been said, you can read the thread on your own.

[cute_moth.npc]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Well PS2 A.I. Warframe enemies run in circles. 

I know that HZFB and HZ Burning Shores have issues in the A.I.. But in difficult levels things are more demanding. 

Well, Horizon Zero Dawn Burning shores and Forbidden west have those issues. I recognize that. 

That's fair! I think you are right to be excited about the new Horizon stuff coming up at least, I'm like 10 hours into this game and it's definitely fire! I will have to wait until Forbidden West gets released on PC to play the sequel, but Horizon Zero is really enjoyable so far.

Also especially right about the graphics.. 

I had to look up when this was made.. It's from 2017?! I mean, this is the PC "complete edition" released in 2020 (did they do a graphics update or something?)

It looks cutting edge, like.. This is one of the most beautiful games I've played, easily. 

[Stormandreas]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

Let me guess, you're the newest person to join in and regurgitate this nonsense, regardless of the fact that it has already been refuted many times over (including the fact that the traits you listed apply to almost every game in the hack-and-slash genre, soulslike or not).

I'm not wasting my time further repeating what has already been said, you can read the thread on your own.

Not the newest at all, I've been saying this since I saw the gameplay reveal, which plays exactly like a soulslike.

Where has this possibly been reliably refuted? DE claming so? DE make a lot of claims.

The traits I listed are extremely promenant and are the core of soulslikes. While they may appear here or there in some hack/slash games, they are typically not the core mechanics.
The time you're wasting is trying to convice me and many many MANY others, who all can see the gameplay for ourselves, and see how closely related to a soulslike the gameplay actually is. Again, DE claiming it's not a soulslike does not make it any less of a soulslike.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2023-05-18 at 5:13 AM, Myscho said:

More like Warframe is testing ground for Soulframe as we can see Drifter melee combat

Yes and it hasn't gone very well due to DE's special way of coding :)

[Felsagger]

7 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

I mean... it is quite bad. The grind is atrocious and clearly DE just not learning from past mistakes, the controls are clunky and don't translate well to the rest of Warframe, the story is convoluted and confusing not to mention forced in order to explain the drifter, the monochrome-colour aspect (while interesting) is extremely painful to the eyes and ruins the experience (I'm not the only one who thinks this).

There's a lot of bad in Duviri. The good part is the Art and Music

Yes, the good part is the Art and Music. De gets that right. I agree with what you are saying about Art and Music. 

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

Yes and it hasn't gone very well due to DE's special way of coding :)

 

Let me give you an example of good coding throughout the game mechanics. 

Insomniac are masters managing transitions and scripted events. This shows how capable is their coding team. 

[Corvid]

11 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

Where has this possibly been reliably refuted?

In this very thread/

Which you would already know/

If you had read it/

11 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

The traits I listed are extremely promenant and are the core of soulslikes. While they may appear here or there in some hack/slash games, they are typically not the core mechanics.

Behold, a soulslike:

Spoiler

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dkqkF1znb0s/Ut4JYKTHZCI/AAAAAAAAAs8/D8nf8louClc/s1600/Metal-Gear-Rising-Revengeanc-PC-Game-Download.jpg

Z targeting: Check

Dodging with I-frames: Check

Parry Windows: Check

Enemies with Windup attacks that require appropriate actions to dodge or counter: Check

Different weapon types that all use unique animations, thus all having different forms of parry windows: Check

Hyper armour: Check and Mate.