!SPOILERS AHEAD! Post New War Drifter Question

[deerlife35]

Just Finished The New War Yesterday And I Picked The Operator And Just Wondering If There's A link To This And My Drifter Using The Void? I Noticed Him Using It While In Oro Works On Zariman 

[EDM774]

at some point in the quest the two shake hands "sharing" void powers with each other. That's all I got for ya. Lore nerds might have more deep dives on the subject.

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, EDM774 said:

at some point in the quest the two shake hands "sharing" void powers with each other.

Which is kinda strange given the Drifter has been in the Void for far longer than the Operator, it should have void powers of their own and much stronger than the Operator.

2 hours ago, EDM774 said:

Lore nerds might have more deep dives on the subject.

Dont bother, the Lore became a mess pos New War and got even more f-ed up with Duviri.

[(PSN)Unstar]

29 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Which is kinda strange given the Drifter has been in the Void for far longer than the Operator, it should have void powers of their own and much stronger than the Operator.

Just being in the Void doesn't give you powers, though; the Tenno's powers come from The Man in the Wall, as shown in the The New War.

[EDM774]

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Which is kinda strange given the Drifter has been in the Void for far longer than the Operator, it should have void powers of their own and much stronger than the Operator.

Drifter never made the deal with the man in the wall which gave the tenno powers, by shaking hands with the tenno some of that rubbed off on the drifter or something, or it broke some cycle idk, maye some info to be revealed in a future quest.

Edited June 12, 2023 by EDM774

[-Krism-]

5 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Which is kinda strange given the Drifter has been in the Void for far longer than the Operator, it should have void powers of their own and much stronger than the Operator.

Wally is the one that gave Operators Void powers

The Drifter never made a contract with him

 

5 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Dont bother, the Lore became a mess pos New War and got even more f-ed up with Duviri.

Sounds like you're just not interested in it

[CephalonCarnage]

Sounds like he is interested in it, or he woulnd't care to comment how f'ed up the lore now is.

Op gets power from Wally handshake (a truly awful Mary-Sue-ism there, I'd much have preferred the kids to develop some adaptation to the void over time. That gives them more agency than just being Wally's magic pet). But the drifter (who can't be in the same eternalism universe, yet was, gets powers from the operator handshake which is not the operator's to give, or they could give it to everyone. Drifter is no more special than Kahl. Imagine Kahl getting Tenno void powers too!

the more I look at it, the more I feel The New War was a massive mistake, not just a wasted opportunity to revitalise warframe for old players.

So, if you're asking questions about Drifter and void powers, the answer is "just is, shut up and don't think about it"

[TARINunit9]

On 2023-06-12 at 7:04 AM, deerlife35 said:

Just Finished The New War Yesterday And I Picked The Operator And Just Wondering If There's A link To This And My Drifter Using The Void? I Noticed Him Using It While In Oro Works On Zariman 

Remember that Drifter and Child are the same person. So the universe can't distinguish between them. Teshin calls this a "paradox," two versions of the same person can't exist in the same place at the same time. (Also remember: you never actually visit the multiverse, the entire game all takes place in the "original" timeline)

So the idea is: after the Drifter and the Child shake hands, they basically merge into a single person. This solves the paradox, it's just one person using one set of powers. It doesn't matter if it looks like the Child or like the Drifter, it's just one person using what the universe thinks is "normal." And since this is the timeline where the Child accepted Wally's offer to get Void powers, Void powers are the "normal" power set

This does not apply in Duviri, because the Child and Drifter are separated down there. So the Drifter does not use Void powers

[Atsia]

12 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Op gets power from Wally handshake (a truly awful Mary-Sue-ism there,

It's not mary-sue, it's a classic Deal with the Devil trope. We get powers we can't control from a being we know is antagonistic for some unknown purpose.

12 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

But the drifter (who can't be in the same eternalism universe, yet was, gets powers from the operator handshake which is not the operator's to give,

Drifter gets powers because they're us, just in a different font. It's a knock on effect from them getting to jump into our universe, something that only happens after we get kicked out into the Void and make the space. It's not a choice, it's a consequence.

[L3512]

The lore got dumpstered with The Sacrifice.

The idea of literally stating that eternalism is a concept of time that then somehow morphs into a multiverse, all within a single quest, was merely setting fire to the dumpster.

[CephalonCarnage]

2 hours ago, Atsia said:

It's not mary-sue, it's a classic Deal with the Devil trope. We get powers we can't control from a being we know is antagonistic for some unknown purpose.

Drifter gets powers because they're us, just in a different font. It's a knock on effect from them getting to jump into our universe, something that only happens after we get kicked out into the Void and make the space. It's not a choice, it's a consequence.

Deal with the Devil trope is always about the bad consequences, never the power gained. This is simply poor writing from DE who has done much better in the past creating a more believable history with all its warts suddenly going for the "and then you were magic, which was nice".

Operator didn't "make the space" as they were back when they met Drifter. its poor writing again. they wanted to introduce a new character for the future direction of warframe, and the handshake is nothing more than a symbolic hand-over. We had 10 years of operator and warframes, now we're getting the next 10 years (perhaps) of Drifter and drifter combat daydreaming with warframes mixed in somewhere just to pretend its still called warframe.

[-Krism-]

2 hours ago, L3512 said:

The lore got dumpstered with The Sacrifice.

The idea of literally stating that eternalism is a concept of time that then somehow morphs into a multiverse, all within a single quest, was merely setting fire to the dumpster.

You know Eternalism is a real theory, right? DE didn't invent it

So stop saying it doesn't make sense or that it's a "dumpster fire" just because you won't bother to understand it

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Deal with the Devil trope is always about the bad consequences, never the power gained. This is simply poor writing from DE who has done much better in the past creating a more believable history with all its warts suddenly going for the "and then you were magic, which was nice".

Operator didn't "make the space" as they were back when they met Drifter. its poor writing again. they wanted to introduce a new character for the future direction of warframe, and the handshake is nothing more than a symbolic hand-over. We had 10 years of operator and warframes, now we're getting the next 10 years (perhaps) of Drifter and drifter combat daydreaming with warframes mixed in somewhere just to pretend its still called warframe.

That assumes that we actually ended up making a deal with the Devil and that there is no other reason for why Wally picked us.

If they really wanted to push the Drifter as the "new" protagonist they would have never included the choice regarding which of us will continue the journey, they likely also wouldnt have used eternalism, and instead settled with a quantum based multiverse setting where the Drifter would actually be its own individual. With eternalism there cant be a new protagonist, since the drifter and the tenno are the same person.

4 hours ago, L3512 said:

The lore got dumpstered with The Sacrifice.

The idea of literally stating that eternalism is a concept of time that then somehow morphs into a multiverse, all within a single quest, was merely setting fire to the dumpster.

It doesnt actually turn into a multiverse though because eternalism isnt really seperate verses like those seen in Marvel or Star Trek stories. It is messy to explain, but in short it is the same person in all, and they are just as real as the next. But to us the one we live through and can see/experince things with is the real "I", but all the others exsist and are as real, and for every single choice you make in your life another branch/path for "I" is started for each other choice that could have been made.

DE reigns it in quite harshly by only providing a single access point to where only 2 out of the infinite "I" can interact.

[L3512]

3 hours ago, -Krism- said:

You know Eternalism is a real theory, right? DE didn't invent it

So stop saying it doesn't make sense or that it's a "dumpster fire" just because you won't bother to understand it

Yes, it's a real theory on time, DE even made a school test about this in the quest which apart from their clumsy schrodinger's cat question they butchered at the end, eternalism was thoroughly presented as a mere theory on the nature of time, no mention of any multiverse.

You aren't even bright enough to work that out that the real theory of eternalism and DE's version aren't the same, the only way to reconcile The New War is to say that DE's faulty understanding of eternalism is in fact, in universe, lore. Hence the multiverse.

As DE write the lore it is what it is but it certainly isn't our theory of eternalism.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt actually turn into a multiverse though because eternalism isnt really seperate verses like those seen in Marvel or Star Trek stories. It is messy to explain, but in short it is the same person in all, and they are just as real as the next. But to us the one we live through and can see/experince things with is the real "I", but all the others exsist and are as real, and for every single choice you make in your life another branch/path for "I" is started for each other choice that could have been made.

DE reigns it in quite harshly by only providing a single access point to where only 2 out of the infinite "I" can interact.

There was no access points until DE made one, just because it's constrained for now that means little. As influential as the tenno were, there has to be a separate reality where the drifter never became tenno, just because this has been mostly unexplored it still raises issues that never needed to exist.

 

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, L3512 said:

As DE write the lore it is what it is but it certainly isn't our theory of eternalism.

 

There was no access points until DE made one, just because it's constrained for now that means little. As influential as the tenno were, there has to be a separate reality where the drifter never became tenno, just because this has been mostly unexplored it still raises issues that never needed to exist.

It very much is our theory. They just happen to add an outside source that allows us to interact with it which is Wally/The Void, a potential cosmic horror/god. If there was no way to interact with eternalism it would be pointless to add it to the story, since we would never know that it exsisted without being able to touch it. And eternalism alone doesnt allow for interaction, it is simply there.

It was a dead givaway all the way back since the very first Duviri tease that there would be an alternate reality and a second "us". That eternalism became the final choice is a good one, aswell as what was the cause of allowing interaction. Nothing that can be reproduced by intent and so on and with no real room for more than two "realities" to be relevant to eachother.

And why does there have to be a seperate reality? We would never be able to experience that choice with our protagonist, since they arent linked. Whatever further branches there are is of no interest, since we experience it from the view of the protagonist, just as you experience the world and what you consider reality from your own eyes. And in WF that means we only experience the choice we see unfold in the game, meaning Drifter leaving to help us in TNW. We'll never experience the Drifter staying since that is experienced by another "I". Which is still just as real, but nothing we can physically experience.

[-Krism-]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

Yes, it's a real theory on time, DE even made a school test about this in the quest which apart from their clumsy schrodinger's cat question they butchered at the end, eternalism was thoroughly presented as a mere theory on the nature of time, no mention of any multiverse.

You aren't even bright enough to work that out that the real theory of eternalism and DE's version aren't the same, the only way to reconcile The New War is to say that DE's faulty understanding of eternalism is in fact, in universe, lore. Hence the multiverse.

As DE write the lore it is what it is but it certainly isn't our theory of eternalism.

 

There was no access points until DE made one, just because it's constrained for now that means little. As influential as the tenno were, there has to be a separate reality where the drifter never became tenno, just because this has been mostly unexplored it still raises issues that never needed to exist.

 

I don't understand your logic, it's exactly what DE is showing, that all timelines are valid & exist

 

As @SneakyErvinstated, if it weren't for the Void, the Orokins would've never known Eternalism was a thing

[Atsia]

6 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Deal with the Devil trope is always about the bad consequences, never the power gained. This is simply poor writing from DE who has done much better in the past creating a more believable history with all its warts suddenly going for the "and then you were magic, which was nice".

And we've been dealing with them. Having to kill our parents, nearly being killed without intervention from Margulis, being forced to become child weapons, forced into a dream state to be compliant, Orokin attempting to bodyjack us. And overall having to be the only thing keeping the solar system from falling apart. And now our Devil is back to collect on whatever their end of the deal was. Everything presented about our powers continues to emphasize "you got powers and bad S#&$ happened because of it".

6 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Operator didn't "make the space" as they were back when they met Drifter. its poor writing again

They did make space. It's literally why the only time Operator and Drifter can share screen time was in a mental dreamscape (or just plain old out of reality in the Void). The entire point of the final choice in Act 2 is the fact that Drifter and Operator cannot exist in reality at the same time, also shown when the moment Operator came back, Drifter got kicked out. Only one of them can finish the rest.

[CephalonCarnage]

2 hours ago, -Krism- said:

I don't understand your logic, it's exactly what DE is showing, that all timelines are valid & exist

 

As @SneakyErvinstated, if it weren't for the Void, the Orokins would've never known Eternalism was a thing

No, not all timelines, just 1 timeline but that all time exists. this is a strange thing to grasp as it means the future is as real as the past - ie already created and present, we just work our way though this pre-ordained timeline without noticing that its all already laid out. The clue is in the name, "eternal-ism".  There is no "2 different beings" type arrangement in a Marvel-style "multiverse". there is no multiverse in real-world eternalism, just 1, and all of it exists at the same "time" because eternalism's concept of time is quite strange. Its like the entire timeline (singular) is laid out and we move through it experienceing it as we go, rather than creating new experiences on-the-fly in the moment called the present.

It is confusing as some variations suggest different times are as valid as different places - but that does not mean they are differen places, just that a sort of time travel can happen in that you can't go back in time and change anything, everything will happen as it did because that's what happened. Similarly for the future. It is a strange concept.

 

As you say "Drifter got kicked out", no, they shookl hands and existed in the same place at the same time. This put all theories of "cannot exist in the same place and time" to rest, its nonsense because they did exist at the same time and place.

 

The concept of the bad things are nothing to do with the Wally handshake. Bad stuff happens, we were already stranded in space. The rest was no deal with the devil's consequences - they were already happening. The "deal" only got us out of there. its not a bad consequence, it was a happy ending! The Orokin then got us and used us, well that's not a bad consequence, the orokin already were evil and selfish. Nothing about the handshake was anything except a get-out-of-poor-writing trope. And not even a good one at that.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

No, not all timelines, just 1 timeline but that all time exists. this is a strange thing to grasp as it means the future is as real as the past - ie already created and present, we just work our way though this pre-ordained timeline without noticing that its all already laid out. The clue is in the name, "eternal-ism".  There is no "2 different beings" type arrangement in a Marvel-style "multiverse". there is no multiverse in real-world eternalism, just 1, and all of it exists at the same "time" because eternalism's concept of time is quite strange. Its like the entire timeline (singular) is laid out and we move through it experienceing it as we go, rather than creating new experiences on-the-fly in the moment called the present.

It is confusing as some variations suggest different times are as valid as different places - but that does not mean they are differen places, just that a sort of time travel can happen in that you can't go back in time and change anything, everything will happen as it did because that's what happened. Similarly for the future. It is a strange concept.

 

As you say "Drifter got kicked out", no, they shookl hands and existed in the same place at the same time. This put all theories of "cannot exist in the same place and time" to rest, its nonsense because they did exist at the same time and place.

 

The concept of the bad things are nothing to do with the Wally handshake. Bad stuff happens, we were already stranded in space. The rest was no deal with the devil's consequences - they were already happening. The "deal" only got us out of there. its not a bad consequence, it was a happy ending! The Orokin then got us and used us, well that's not a bad consequence, the orokin already were evil and selfish. Nothing about the handshake was anything except a get-out-of-poor-writing trope. And not even a good one at that.

It is the opposite of pre-ordained since the choices all lead to different outcomes. What you talk about is fatalism, where even if you have "free" choices, it all ends up the same. You and others keep forgetting that all "I" are the same, meaning "I" experience all choices and all different outcomes but only one of them seem like the actual reality. We are creating on the fly experiences that is the whole point of eternalsim, since each time you make a choice another branch starts. Meaning that one choice made at some point impacts another, but can also lead back to experiencing the same as another choice would.

Also the Drifter never exsisted at the same time as the tenno in the same place. This only occured in the void.

Regarding the deal or well the choice. It gave us powers and it didnt. That is a pretty big deal and it was tied directly to Wally and as people have noted Lotus hand.

[L3512]

14 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It very much is our theory. They just happen to add an outside source that allows us to interact with it which is Wally/The Void, a potential cosmic horror/god. If there was no way to interact with eternalism it would be pointless to add it to the story, since we would never know that it exsisted without being able to touch it. And eternalism alone doesnt allow for interaction, it is simply there.

The theory of eternalism is that time does not exist as the past, present and future and that all of time co-existed at the same moment.

Where has DE shown this in TNW?

 

14 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It was a dead givaway all the way back since the very first Duviri tease that there would be an alternate reality and a second "us". That eternalism became the final choice is a good one, aswell as what was the cause of allowing interaction. Nothing that can be reproduced by intent and so on and with no real room for more than two "realities" to be relevant to eachother.

You are applying present knowledge to past events, it's dishonest.

The trailer showed the drifter and a younger version of the drifter or the operator. As we didn't know if this was singular or separate entities and the Duviri Paradox was apparently inspired by the Twin paradox at the time and we don't know how time fuctions in the void, some sort of time shenanigan was a more natural result than a limited multiverse.

 

14 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why does there have to be a seperate reality? We would never be able to experience that choice with our protagonist, since they arent linked. Whatever further branches there are is of no interest, since we experience it from the view of the protagonist, just as you experience the world and what you consider reality from your own eyes. And in WF that means we only experience the choice we see unfold in the game, meaning Drifter leaving to help us in TNW. We'll never experience the Drifter staying since that is experienced by another "I". Which is still just as real, but nothing we can physically experience.

And here you are wrong, Drifter knew about Hunhow, the stalker is listed in Duviri as an unlikely ally. The Drifter universe has already influenced the Tenno universe and there is no saying DE won't be tempted to meddle further when they need to conjure up another villain like Ballas or some such.

 

14 hours ago, -Krism- said:

I don't understand your logic, it's exactly what DE is showing, that all timelines are valid & exist

 

As @SneakyErvinstated, if it weren't for the Void, the Orokins would've never known Eternalism was a thing

The fact that you use the term timelines to argue the merits of the eternalism implementation is ironic.

There is no timeline nor timelines with eternalism, no past, no present, no future, time does not flow, time does not start and time does not end. The reason eternalism is also called block theory is that space and time are theorised to exist in a unchanging block, all of time exists at once in this block. While not incompatible with a multiverse as it's a theory on the nature of time, it is not inherently linked to any theories on multiverses.

The void in WF acts as a simple enabler, it's the space magic that allows stuff to happen.

 

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, L3512 said:

The theory of eternalism is that time does not exist as the past, present and future and that all of time co-existed at the same moment.

Where has DE shown this in TNW?

When we physically met the other "I".

17 minutes ago, L3512 said:

You are applying present knowledge to past events, it's dishonest.

The trailer showed the drifter and a younger version of the drifter or the operator. As we didn't know if this was singular or separate entities and the Duviri Paradox was apparently inspired by the Twin paradox at the time and we don't know how time fuctions in the void, some sort of time shenanigan was a more natural result than a limited multiverse.

What present knowledge? We knew it was going to be paradox themed already back then. As I said it was good that they went with the choice of eternalism, since again it is far more limited and doesnt include all the Star Trek, Marvel and DC bullS#&$. 

31 minutes ago, L3512 said:

And here you are wrong, Drifter knew about Hunhow, the stalker is listed in Duviri as an unlikely ally. The Drifter universe has already influenced the Tenno universe and there is no saying DE won't be tempted to meddle further when they need to conjure up another villain like Ballas or some such.

No, he didnt know about Hunhow. The Duviri quest takes place before TNW, at which point there is no access to the Stalker in Duviri. It becoming available later through us farming intrinsics simply implies that the Drifter returns when he has helped the Tenno in TNW. It is either the place he goes back to as we make the choice for the Tenno to continue, or he does so physically by becoming the "I".

40 minutes ago, L3512 said:

The fact that you use the term timelines to argue the merits of the eternalism implementation is ironic.

There is no timeline nor timelines with eternalism, no past, no present, no future, time does not flow, time does not start and time does not end. The reason eternalism is also called block theory is that space and time are theorised to exist in a unchanging block, all of time exists at once in this block. While not incompatible with a multiverse as it's a theory on the nature of time, it is not inherently linked to any theories on multiverses.

The void in WF acts as a simple enabler, it's the space magic that allows stuff to happen.

The bolded part isnt really true "The growing block view is an alternative to both eternalism (according to which past, present, and future all exist)...", so eternalism has a timeline, it is just that it implies that the future already exsists and that is because all choices are equally true, so there is already a future where you go left and one where you go right and they are equally real.

[L3512]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

When we physically met the other "I".

That is in no way related to a theory on the nature of time, the other "I" is pure multiverse.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What present knowledge? We knew it was going to be paradox themed already back then. As I said it was good that they went with the choice of eternalism, since again it is far more limited and doesnt include all the Star Trek, Marvel and DC bullS#&$. 

The present knowledge that the drifter is multiverse operator from a branching timelime. It could have been a paradox involving time, hell you could even argue that as the operator and drifter can't exist together in the same plane that it is in fact not a paradox at all.

 

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, he didnt know about Hunhow. The Duviri quest takes place before TNW, at which point there is no access to the Stalker in Duviri. It becoming available later through us farming intrinsics simply implies that the Drifter returns when he has helped the Tenno in TNW. It is either the place he goes back to as we make the choice for the Tenno to continue, or he does so physically by becoming the "I".

Drifter knew about Hunhow in TNW, your idea on stalker and grinding intrinsics is a serious stretch to put it nicely.

Did you perhaps forget that the drifter needed the Lotus hand to break the cycle?

 

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The bolded part isnt really true "The growing block view is an alternative to both eternalism (according to which past, present, and future all exist)...", so eternalism has a timeline, it is just that it implies that the future already exsists and that is because all choices are equally true, so there is already a future where you go left and one where you go right and they are equally real.

🤦‍♀️

Humans invent concepts to explain things. The past, present and future as we would call them exist in eternalism and yet as they are not strictly limited by linear timeflow lose their definition. The present solely exists as it is framed from what came before (past) and what is yet to come (future), we can clearly isolate these three concepts. As all time exists at once in eternalism, the past, present and future can not be defined.

Your "all choices are equally true" idea is just a fabrication you use to explain DE's poor writing, eternalism does not equal Multiverse.

[-Krism-]

18 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Humans invent concepts to explain things. The past, present and future as we would call them exist in eternalism and yet as they are not strictly limited by linear timeflow lose their definition.

You're just nitpicking on terms, I don't want to waste my time here replying to a neverending back & forth

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

That is in no way related to a theory on the nature of time, the other "I" is pure multiverse.

It's very much related to the theory, since involving a "multiverse" is the only way to show it in practice. Which is what you asked, when they had shown it.

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

The present knowledge that the drifter is multiverse operator from a branching timelime. It could have been a paradox involving time, hell you could even argue that as the operator and drifter can't exist together in the same plane that it is in fact not a paradox at all.

Not with the way the trailer shows it, since it quite obviously shows another verse through the "fading" tenno seen by the Drifter. It would be very odd to showcase a time travel idea that way, because no one would jump to that conclussion. And how can you argue that it isnt a paradox? A paradox doesnt mean things can exsist, or not. Both are just theories of what can happen with a paradox. In the case of WF they cannot co-exsist in "reality" as they put it, so stop it before it happens by making the decision of which "I" should continue.

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

Drifter knew about Hunhow in TNW, your idea on stalker and grinding intrinsics is a serious stretch to put it nicely.

Did you perhaps forget that the drifter needed the Lotus hand to break the cycle?

Drifter gets to know about Hunhow in the time that spans between the Duviri quest and where we get to play him in TNW. Alot of things have happened in that time, like him having found Ordis, pieces of Lotus and so on. Also, what does the hand have to do with anything regarding when Drifter got to know of Hunhow or not? It fell into the void and ended up on Duviri at the very beginning of the war. As Nora implies, a long time has passed since the tenno disappeared, so alot of time for Drifter to get up to speed after leaving Duviri.

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

 

🤦‍♀️

Humans invent concepts to explain things. The past, present and future as we would call them exist in eternalism and yet as they are not strictly limited by linear timeflow lose their definition. The present solely exists as it is framed from what came before (past) and what is yet to come (future), we can clearly isolate these three concepts. As all time exists at once in eternalism, the past, present and future can not be defined.

Your "all choices are equally true" idea is just a fabrication you use to explain DE's poor writing, eternalism does not equal Multiverse.

When was past, present and future required to be linear in order to have a meaning? I'm also not sure where you get the idea from that past, present and future exsist at once in eternalism. There is no specification on the exsistance of past and present, only that the future already exsists since all possibilities are equally real. Each of them however result in a different past, present and future based on which of the choices we make and experience.

It isnt past, present and future exsisting at once, it is all possible timelines exsisting at once and running side by side, all equally real in past, present and future states. Meaning there is an infinite amount of pasts, presents and futures that we cannot experience, since we can only observe and experience one of them. That I went to the store the day before yesterday is very much a past in the timeflow, it however doesnt mean something else didnt also happen that day instead in one of the other timelines running alongside the one I experience.

And of course eternalism doesnt equal multiverse, who ever claimed it did?

[Atsia]

4 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

As you say "Drifter got kicked out", no, they shookl hands and existed in the same place at the same time. This put all theories of "cannot exist in the same place and time" to rest, its nonsense because they did exist at the same time and place.

They can't exist at the same time in real space. The handshake scene happens in the Void, out of reality. And even that isn't a sure thing since their one actual meeting starts to fall apart in minutes because only one of them can go back into reality proper to finish things.

 

18 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The concept of the bad things are nothing to do with the Wally handshake. Bad stuff happens, we were already stranded in space. The rest was no deal with the devil's consequences - they were already happening. The "deal" only got us out of there. its not a bad consequence, it was a happy ending! The Orokin then got us and used us, well that's not a bad consequence, the orokin already were evil and selfish. Nothing about the handshake was anything except a get-out-of-poor-writing trope. And not even a good one at that.

I'll give you about the events of the Zariman accident, us having to kill our parents isn't a direct consequence of the deal like that, but everything else very much is. The Orokin fiding us and experimenting on us is very much a consequence of that deal. Us being able to empathize with frames to control them (and thus forced to become soldiers) is a consequence of that deal. There's no happy ending here when everything about taking the deal has just lead to us and others suffering.