Kullervo's Overguard future changes

[AegidiusF]

So, on the Devstream, they announced some points that are on test to improve Kullervo's survivability.

Increasing his HP and Overguard and making Overguard scale with Strength Mods and giving his Overguard a little gate of 0.25 seconds.

Citation

After a week of gathering community feedback, the largest piece of constructive criticism we have seen is in regards to Kullervo’s Survivability. We are aware of the concerns about Kullervo’s ability to be one-shot at higher level content, and are currently testing the following change:
- 0.25s Invulnerability window if Overguard is consumed
- Added Ability Strength scaling for Overguard Cap

I wasn't expecting DR to affect Overguard (even though it could be ok), because they never wanted this to happen with enemies. But I was expecting one more change, that works for Rhino : not only CC immunity, but also Status effect immunity . They dind't say anything about this.

To be honest, I don't think this changes will be enough : even if Overguard scales with Strength, it will be completely depleted in one hit from some high level enemies. I would prefer that Kullervo's Overguard could scale with enemy's Max HP, that would be taken into account when they get hit by the daggers. Also, I can't underrstand why Kullervo must have an Overguard cap.

I also think that some invulnerability while casting abilities (like how it happens for Kullervo's 1st) would be nice (like Garuda when she casts her abilities).

I'm looking forward to trying the announced changes, but I'm kind of skeptical about them. It will surely be better, but if Kullervo doesn't gain Status immunity while protected by Overguard, I don't think these changes will be enough.

Edited June 30, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[TheGodofWiFi]

I completely agree with this. I honestly do not know what DE are doing when it comes to Overguard. Pablo's suggestions do absolutely nothing to solve the core issue with Overguard; which is that it gets completely melted at high level. Adding a brief invulnerability period does absolutely nothing because Overguard is still utterly useless as a defence mechanic so you'll still need to constantly spam the ability in order to stay alive. It's also still a worse version of shield-gating no matter what Pablo insists.

The fact they are persisting in the delusion that frames do not need consistent damage reduction or invulnerability in order to stay alive in end-game content really irks me. It's like they don't even play their own game sometimes. I just want to say "Guys, stop faffing about with these ridiculously inefficient systems. Just give every new frame damage reduction, invisibility or invulnerability. You created a game where those are the only viable means of staying alive in endgame, accept it and stop trying to act like you can still get away with making rubbish systems like Overguard."

I really hope someone manages to get through to Pablo and he just makes player Overguard function like Nezha's Warding Halo, in that it provides a flat 90% damage reduction until depleted. Pablo's suggestion just makes Kullervo a worse version of Nezha.

Edited June 30, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Slayer-.]

 

  I was replying to DE with my below quote, and then I got this bottom reply, I'm still testing the frame but you get whacked really fast without Arcanes or a Helminth ability to crutch you up.

On 2023-06-29 at 2:07 PM, Slayer-. said:

Go play Kullervo in the Steel Path Star chart 140-150 and get back to me on his survivability, Kullervo needs something else to stay alive while playing in the Steel Path, you get smashed straight away and by the time you add overguard back it's gone in a millisecond then you're dead unless a health arcane kicks in to save your butt while crazily jumping around to try and dodge bullets.

--------------------------

snip

Nothing wrong with Kullervo going on this below quote. 👀

17 hours ago, iHeuksal said:

 snip

Then you are doing something wrong. He can survive, if you are not dull and lazy to move around and properly do stuff.

Footage taken from a bug report of the engine stuttering like hell ever since Duviri got added, so ignore that. Other than that, he is pretty viable for surviving SP easily.

 

 

[Pakaku]

I'm just wondering if this is the best we're getting, given how finnicky DE always is with content that isn't day-1 fresh.

[Tiltskillet]

55 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

But I was expecting one more change, that works for enemies : not only CC immunity, but also Status effect immunity (and a cap to Cold status).

Enemy Overguard doesn't make them  status immune though.  They're immune to Impact's stagger, and Radiation's confuse, and the CC components of Heat and Electricity.  Blast's accuracy debuff I've been meaning to test, but  I haven't gotten to.  But everything else works, even if they aren't applicable while Overguard is up.  (i.e., pre-existing Viral, Corrosive, and Magnetic procs  will work fine the instant it's gone.)  Toxin and Slash ticks don't bypass enemy Overguard or Kullervo's.

It's sounding pretty similar.  Do you know for a fact that Kullervo can get rad-proc'd or suffer more than 4 stacks of cold while Overguard is up? 

Quote

I also think that some invulnerability while casting abilities (like how it happens for Kullervo's 1st) would be nice (like Garuda when she casts her abilities).

Yeah, a moderate amount of iframes is one of the things I was thinking too.  But the gate and the higher cap seem like they might be enough to me.  Obviously I can't say that for sure yet.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[AegidiusF]

il y a 7 minutes, Slayer-. a dit :

 

  I was replying to DE with my below quote, and then I got this bottom reply, I'm still testing the frame but you get whacked really fast without Arcanes or a Helminth ability to crutch you up.

Nothing wrong with Kullervo going on this below quote. 👀

 

I'm very sorry you got that kind of answer, specially with the "doing wrong" and "lazy" expressions.

It's not much and it has almost no value, but I give you all my support and I agree with what you said.

About that video, if you take at look at some details, you will see that it perfectly confirms what you said : Khora's infusion for CC (that's Helminth) and not even once Kullervo had Overguard : Why ? Because the second ability was replaced by Esnare !!! In other words, that video shows that the player considered the overguard so bad that he get rid of the possibility of using it and was using Kullervo just like a Nidus or an Inaros. And that was base SP level.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 15 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Enemy Overguard doesn't make them  status immune though.  They're immune to Impact's stagger, and Radiation's confuse, and the CC components of Heat and Electricity.  Blast's accuracy debuff I've been meaning to test, but  I haven't gotten to.  But everything else works, even if they aren't applicable while Overguard is up.  (i.e., pre-existing Viral, Corrosive, and Magnetic procs  will work fine the instant it's gone.)  Toxin and Slash ticks don't bypass enemy Overguard or Kullervo's.

It's sounding pretty similar.  Do you know for a fact that Kullervo can get rad-proc'd or suffer more than 4 stacks of cold while Overguard is up? 

Oh ! Yes, sorry, you are right : I was thinking about Rhino and his status immunity while Iron Skin (that now is overguard) is active.

I don't know if he can get rad procd : a way to test this is to go to a low level void mission and stay under the lasers. I'll try this as soon as I get home.

For the Cold, perhpas the simplest way is to go on a Corpus low level mission and break those Cold Storage and see how it affects Kullervo. Going to test too.

Thanks a lot for your corrections.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm looking forward to trying the announced changes, but I'm kind of skeptical about them. It will surely be better, but if Kullervo doesn't gain Status immunity while protected by Overguard, I don't think these changes will be enough.

While I am happy to have the brief invulnerability period, along with allowing Overguard scale with Strength Mods, I have to agree with you here, one of my feedback was to allow Kullervo to have full Status Immunity, but I don't think DE will give this to him, given that we'll be unkillable at that point. (If modded correctly).

Edit: Just saw you replied to someone else, if Rhino has it, then I can't see why Kullervo can't but I don't think they just want to make an Iron Skin 2.0

28 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

I'm just wondering if this is the best we're getting, given how finnicky DE always is with content that isn't day-1 fresh.

DE are always finicky with content, if it doesn't sell high numbers or get a big profit, they move on to the next cool thing, see how long it took them to even talk about the issues Kullervo had.

This should tell you enough alone, how "finicky" they are, they only do what "they" feel is right, not what the players do, why is the update all the way until the 27th of July, there is no reason to push the update that far away because the updates didn't "pan out" as they hoped and got so many negative reviews on it, this is what happens?.

[Slayer-.]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm very sorry you got that kind of answer, specially with the "doing wrong" and "lazy" expressions.

It's not much and it has almost no value, but I give you all my support and I agree with what you said.

About that video, if you take at look at some details, you will see that it perfectly confirms what you said : Khora's infusion for CC (that's Helminth) and not even once Kullervo had Overguard : Why ? Because the second ability was replaced by Esnare !!! In other words, that video shows that the player considered the overguard so bad that he get rid of the possibility of using it and was using Kullervo just like a Nidus or an Inaros. And that was base SP level.

I did notice that but user said it didn't help them much.

I play SP a lot with different frames at times and was surprised myself with the user reply, I'll be testing Kullervos again to work out a playstyle for that frame, but I don't see it changing much from my normal way of keeping on the move and lots of jumping and shooting, though I never stand still always moving around overguard just melts with so much damage coming in, I might have to get ensnare and that arcane reaper to be pro. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

26 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

I might have to get ensnare and that arcane reaper to be pro.

Huh, can you share the build that you use, cuz I got a funny feeling, we have the same one (or close to it)

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

But I was expecting one more change, that works for Rhino : not only CC immunity, but also Status effect immunity . They dind't say anything about this.

But that is a specific Iron Skin trait, not because of overguard itself. Just as Iron Skin also has a brief invulnerability window that increases the health of the overguard based on damage taken during that period.

[Slayer-.]

37 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Huh, can you share the build that you use, cuz I got a funny feeling, we have the same one (or close to it)

I bit the bullet and added an Umbral Forma, I really like the frame, I just hope it wasn't a waste of a Forma.

I think I screwed up a Forma along the way, ranking up different things at the moment and think I may have had a moment not sure.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 15 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

But that is a specific Iron Skin trait, not because of overguard itself. Just as Iron Skin also has a brief invulnerability window that increases the health of the overguard based on damage taken during that period.

I agree that it's not a specific overguard mechanics (it's not only Rhino, but also Frost and Atlas benefit from status immunity while with Overguard). But Kullervo is currently the only warframe whose overguard does not protect him from status effects and this little change could help with his survivability.

Also, Atlas OG seems to benefit from some DR (I haven't tested yet), but the Wiki says :

Citation

Modded Armor and collected Rubble mitigates damage to the Overguard.

If this is correct, Atlas OG also has a specific feature. Kullervo will have his : the little gating. This can be very confusing. Making OG work the same way for everybody (unifying their mechanics) would be better than creating a lot of specific mechanics.

Edited June 30, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[(PSN)robotwars7]

a quarter of a second gate and basic strength scaling for Overguard... not exactly going above and beyond there DE.

let's just call a spade a spade and accept that Overguard is really not intended to be any different from shields, especially in Kullervo's case where it's his sole form of protection. in this case, give Overguard the same Gating that Shields have and allow for it to scale based off both power strength AND armor. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Slayer-. said:

I bit the bullet and added an Umbral Forma, I really like the frame, I just hope it wasn't a waste of a Forma.

I think I screwed up a Forma along the way, ranking up different things at the moment and think I may have had a moment not sure.

Wow, our build is almost Identical!

I have exactly the same Mod Set up with the expectation of Overextend, I have that as an open slot for either Augur Reach or Muzzle Flash since I am using SG to replace his Ult, SG is highly underrated as it makes hostiles have to reload/unjam their weapon for quite some time, enough so they are not shooting at you, for you to kill them in time. W/ Muzzle Flash, it adds a CC on top of one another, Jammed and Blinded. Since I use a sidearm (Tenant Plix) to quickly blind them. My Arances are different tho: Engnize and Reaper. 

This build I have should make it so, I have no issues staying alive, tho the changes to him will just add to that. 

 

Edit Oh, side note, I have 2 Blue Reg Shards that give him extra HP and 2 Reds (One Reg, One Tau) that give him Extra Strg, the last shard is likely gonna be Casting Speed, since DE never said, that his Casting Speed will get a buff.

Edit 2: I run the Syam & Sirocco 2.0 (Renamed Tenant Plix), as you can tell it's a homage to the Drifter Gameplaym but this may change for that new Sheild and Mace, as it looks really good.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Circle_of_Psi

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Honestly, I cannot wrap my head around how DE thinks overguard is the next evolution for health tanking frames. I'm assuming that's the plan at least. 

[Slayer-.]

4 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Wow, our build is almost Identical!

I have exactly the same Mod Set up with the expectation of Overextend, I have that as an open slot for either Augur Reach or Muzzle Flash since I am using SG to replace his Ult, SG is highly underrated as it makes hostiles have to reload/unjam their weapon for quite some time, enough so they are not shooting at you, for you to kill them in time. W/ Muzzle Flash, it adds a CC on top of one another, Jammed and Blinded. Since I use a sidearm (Tenant Plix) to quickly blind them. My Arances are different tho: Engnize and Reaper. 

This build I have should make it so, I have no issues staying alive, tho the changes to him will just add to that. 

 

Edit Oh, side note, I have 2 Blue Reg Shards that give him extra HP and 2 Reds (One Reg, One Tau) that give him Extra Strg, the last shard is likely gonna be Casting Speed, since DE never said, that his Casting Speed will get a buff.

Edit 2: I run the Syam & Sirocco 2.0 (Renamed Tenant Plix), as you can tell it's a homage to the Drifter Gameplaym but this may change for that new Sheild and Mace, as it looks really good.

Cool.

I'm testing the Equilibrium mod (FLAWED) version I can't fit a full one in while ranking Kullervo up, seems to be working ok in the slot where stretch is, to try and help with energy using my pet.

Having the three umbral mods equipped has made a big difference in running Steel Path missions, it shouldn't matter but meh I've done it now, currently ranking up in Steel Path.

I'm treating Kullervo just like my Nidus Prime with just health so should make a difference in my mind.

 

[Skoomaseller]

4 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

So, on the Devstream, they announced some points that are on test to improve Kullervo's survivability.

Increasing his HP and Overguard and making Overguard scale with Strength Mods and giving his Overguard a little gate of 0.25 seconds.

I wasn't expecting DR to affect Overguard (even though it could be ok), because they never wanted this to happen with enemies. But I was expecting one more change, that works for Rhino : not only CC immunity, but also Status effect immunity . They dind't say anything about this.

To be honest, I don't think this changes will be enough : even if Overguard scales with Strength, it will be completely depleted in one hit from some high level enemies. I would prefer that Kullervo's Overguard could scale with enemy's Max HP, that would be taken into account when they get hit by the daggers. Also, I can't underrstand why Kullervo must have an Overguard cap.

I also think that some invulnerability while casting abilities (like how it happens for Kullervo's 1st) would be nice (like Garuda when she casts her abilities).

I'm looking forward to trying the announced changes, but I'm kind of skeptical about them. It will surely be better, but if Kullervo doesn't gain Status immunity while protected by Overguard, I don't think these changes will be enough.

so it is literally shield 2.0 but somehow worse seeing as OG can't even benefit from adaptation, and also has a much shorter "shield gate" duration

10 years btw

[stormy505]

4 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

 

  I was replying to DE with my below quote, and then I got this bottom reply, I'm still testing the frame but you get whacked really fast without Arcanes or a Helminth ability to crutch you up.

Nothing wrong with Kullervo going on this below quote. 👀

 

Their response has to be a joke right? They're not even 5 minutes into a survival and are very close to dying. Imagine bringing him into SP circuit and fighting even just level 200-300 enemies...

[FishMcCool]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I bit the bullet and added an Umbral Forma, I really like the frame, I just hope it wasn't a waste of a Forma.

I think I screwed up a Forma along the way, ranking up different things at the moment and think I may have had a moment not sure.

Yeah, he really needs umbra. I pushed two into it myself:

Duration is low but long enough for the 3-4 combo to kill whatever is inside, 190 range gives me 19m for the 4 which feels good enough to me, and the Primed Flow is a flex slot (Primed Flow felt better than streamline as a pair with Adrenaline, and Augur mods can fit in there too). PSF is not actually needed but ah, comfort food. And it pairs well with those incarnon melee that shoot projectiles should I build one at some point. Right now I use the Tenet Livia for the big slash proc, and slotted Life Strike on it so I can just ignore the 2 and keep health topped up at all times. I should also replace Arcane Energize too, it's just a leftover from before I had the space for Adrenaline.

It's a lot of fun until the scaling reaches one-shot territory.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, Pakaku a dit :

given how finnicky DE always is with content that isn't day-1 fresh.

Il y a 3 heures, Circle_of_Psi a dit :

DE are always finicky with content, if it doesn't sell high numbers or get a big profit, they move on to the next cool thing, see how long it took them to even talk about the issues Kullervo had.

I'm going to say something that is a bit off topic, but the fact that they are always postponing the other warframes "reworks" is a bit annoying. It was supposed to come after Duviri, now it's after Tennocon... and Inaros was excluded from the list. They started revisiting old warframes abilities two years ago, I think (I'm not sure), but only a small handfull of warframes got some changes.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I agree that it's not a specific overguard mechanics (it's not only Rhino, but also Frost and Atlas benefit from status immunity while with Overguard). But Kullervo is currently the only warframe whose overguard does not protect him from status effects and this little change could help with his survivability.

Also, Atlas OG seems to benefit from some DR (I haven't tested yet), but the Wiki says :

If this is correct, Atlas OG also has a specific feature. Kullervo will have his : the little gating. This can be very confusing. Making OG work the same way for everybody (unifying their mechanics) would be better than creating a lot of specific mechanics.

It's all bacause they inherited the old "health" type benefits of the frame so nothing got nerfed. It's the kit that interact with OG in a specific way. All of those frames have their thing and Kullervo with have a gate. Some frame in the future might have some DR that applies to OG if they ever make another with such a defense.

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

a quarter of a second gate and basic strength scaling for Overguard... not exactly going above and beyond there DE.

let's just call a spade a spade and accept that Overguard is really not intended to be any different from shields, especially in Kullervo's case where it's his sole form of protection. in this case, give Overguard the same Gating that Shields have and allow for it to scale based off both power strength AND armor. 

Giving it shield gate values would be ridiculously OP considering he can refill them at will to full. It would be like shield gate cheese without a key really. He is also very durable without the gate already and can do endless steel path without any real trouble. The game has never been balanced around extremely long endless, yet DE decides to throw a bone for Kullervo based on enemy levels that few will encounter regularly.

It isnt like he's a low HP and low Armor frame underneath the gate, or that he doesnt constantly micro CC everything he touches more or less, while also having some of the most absurd killing power in the game due to the synergy in his kit and how curse interacts with weapons.

17 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

Their response has to be a joke right? They're not even 5 minutes into a survival and are very close to dying. Imagine bringing him into SP circuit and fighting even just level 200-300 enemies...

Which isnt a problem. You face 250 enemies in the bonus undercrofts, and he has zero issues in there, even without adaptation. And for Circuit itself, running 2 full rotations hasnt been an issue either, it has felt kinda like when I play Lavos, but with higher killing power. I simply dont push longer due to the defense objective and excavators becoming risks or just taking too long to finish.

For me my survival with Kullervo rests in 3x Umbra, 3x normal Azure armor shards and Arcane Blessing, which fill in no time in circuit and isnt really needed in bonus portals or normal SP content.

[Slayer-.]

 

Just now, stormy505 said:

Their response has to be a joke right? They're not even 5 minutes into a survival and are very close to dying. Imagine bringing him into SP circuit and fighting even just level 200-300 enemies...

I used Kullervo in SP circuit when he first came out, did a circuit saw it was a pick and went why not with the DE default config it went ok, mind you I picked the moral boost to recharge energy when full HP, and then just whatever came up next.

Just now, FishMcCool said:

Yeah, he really needs umbra. I pushed two into it myself:

Duration is low but long enough for the 3-4 combo to kill whatever is inside, 190 range gives me 19m for the 4 which feels good enough to me, and the Primed Flow is a flex slot (Primed Flow felt better than streamline as a pair with Adrenaline, and Augur mods can fit in there too). PSF is not actually needed but ah, comfort food. And it pairs well with those incarnon melee that shoot projectiles should I build one at some point. Right now I use the Tenet Livia for the big slash proc, and slotted Life Strike on it so I can just ignore the 2 and keep health topped up at all times. I should also replace Arcane Energize too, it's just a leftover from before I had the space for Adrenaline.

It's a lot of fun until the scaling reaches one-shot territory.

Nice, that's the problem though with full Umbra builds you've locked yourself in if you go more than one Umbra Forma, why I stopped at one plus not a Prime.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 3 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

while also having some of the most absurd killing power in the game due to the synergy in his kit and how curse interacts with weapons.

I totally agree and this is the funniest thing : they nerfed Marked for Death to then give us a warframe that has an improved, synergistic  and more efficient Marked for Death.

[FishMcCool]

7 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

Nice, that's the problem though with full Umbra builds you've locked yourself in if you go more than one Umbra Forma, why I stopped at one plus not a Prime.

Indeed. I'm not even that hot on Steel charge for the aura, but it's there as the extra capacity allows me to keep two slots unformaed for a little more build options later.

I used to avoid umbra on non-primes, but at some point I realised that I had more fun with them being used on frames I like than just hoarded. Years of fun with Lavos and Grendel for example were worth more than the extra forma I'll need when the primes show up. It didn't take me too long to figure out that Kullervo was right down my alley as yet another health tank with some sick moves. If he stays as-is and remains a non-option for endurance runs, well, so be it, I'll stick to the SP range he can deal with (or start bothering with Vazarin spam but, like, ewww...). I just wish it didn't feel like the best option is to overwrite his 2 with, once again, Gloom...