Uncool Ideas on Trials / Raids and their difficulty

[Xamuswing]

Sup. Hope you're having a good morning.

Was thinking about how Trials could be implemented and the challenges it faces. Posting them here.

So one of the biggest issues facing Trials now is, unfortunately, power level. Forget an entire team of 8 bozos, something like a Mesa with an optimized kit will just shred through every enemy she comes across without fuss all the way up to Lvl 5000 before Shatter Shield starts to actually fall off. Harrow, Trinity, Wisp, etc, can make the entire party functionally immortal. Some Warframes can even lock down entire rooms for a really long time without worrying about their energy like Volt, Vauban, Khora, or Zephyr. This isn't even accounting for the fact that there WILL be players kitted out with max level weapons that explode entire rooms in a micro-second.

There are some un-fun solutions I've been thinking about that most players would hate, but I feel are somewhat necessary for a 4-8 man squad:

-No gear, besides Trial specific items. This would only be stuff required to complete said trial, not a group ammo or energy restore.
-Cooldowns / Forced Booting (A channeled ability being disabled suddenly) on abilities being spammed. Think something similar to what happens in ESO, but even more restrictive. You can only cast Wisp's motes once every 30s kind of restrictive.
-Energy pools are reduced; works just like Sorties.
-Ammo does not drop from enemies. In order to restore ammo, you must use canisters and lockers in the missions, or something like Protea's Dispensary. Maybe implement a station you can restore ammo at once every 60s.
-AoE damage from weapons can inflict self-damage. When at full HP or if Overshields are present, damage is capped at 90% of your total between Shields and HP. Any less than 100% HP or Overshields, and you die / bleed out instantly.
-Every enemy has a Demolisher type of CC immunity, where certain abilities like sleep or Ensnare only trigger on them once at 50% of their usual duration, and they are immune to being rag-dolled.** They will NOT, however, have Nullifier Bubbles randomly pop up. The second condition listed should be more than necessary.
-Operators can only be used a limited number of times, or not at all.

**They are still susceptible to things such as knockdown / knockback, Confusion from Rad procs or Nyx's Chaos, Disarms, Stuns like from Blind or Silence, and Finishers from Fatal Teleport, unlike Demolishers.

Warframe is at that point where even if all these restrictions were in place, it would still not be a serious challenge for a fully optimized team, but it would at least mean you need to build a decent, well rounded kit in order to compete. It would also incentivize players to not simply rely on the usual CC and damage effects a lot of modern Warframes rely on and instead need to use status. such as Cold, Radiation, Blind, etc.

Hopefully Trials make it back in some way, doubt it'll happen this year tho. They were one of the only game modes that necessitated coordinated team play and strategy when quite a lot of content even today is both easy to do, and sometimes easier to do, solo.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

what if they were Drifter focused?

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

what if they were Drifter focused?

I was thinking the same thing, Drifter Trials. No super high powerlevels or wild powergaps between players, easier to balance probably. Kahl could even join as an alternate character or something maybe, he seems to be roundabouts "the same power" as Drifter for ttk and abilities and whatnot. Vesa died in New War but, Corpus player character too I guess. "Three different classes" 8 different players, I guess DE could make Teamwork very necessary for mission success, but "it'd be easy" with 2/3 players likely overlapping on the same class

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, Xamuswing said:

Sup. Hope you're having a good morning.

Was thinking about how Trials could be implemented and the challenges it faces. Posting them here.

So one of the biggest issues facing Trials now is, unfortunately, power level. Forget an entire team of 8 bozos, something like a Mesa with an optimized kit will just shred through every enemy she comes across without fuss all the way up to Lvl 5000 before Shatter Shield starts to actually fall off. Harrow, Trinity, Wisp, etc, can make the entire party functionally immortal. Some Warframes can even lock down entire rooms for a really long time without worrying about their energy like Volt, Vauban, Khora, or Zephyr. This isn't even accounting for the fact that there WILL be players kitted out with max level weapons that explode entire rooms in a micro-second.

There are some un-fun solutions I've been thinking about that most players would hate, but I feel are somewhat necessary for a 4-8 man squad:

-No gear, besides Trial specific items. This would only be stuff required to complete said trial, not a group ammo or energy restore.
-Cooldowns / Forced Booting (A channeled ability being disabled suddenly) on abilities being spammed. Think something similar to what happens in ESO, but even more restrictive. You can only cast Wisp's motes once every 30s kind of restrictive.
-Energy pools are reduced; works just like Sorties.
-Ammo does not drop from enemies. In order to restore ammo, you must use canisters and lockers in the missions, or something like Protea's Dispensary. Maybe implement a station you can restore ammo at once every 60s.
-AoE damage from weapons can inflict self-damage. When at full HP or if Overshields are present, damage is capped at 90% of your total between Shields and HP. Any less than 100% HP or Overshields, and you die / bleed out instantly.
-Every enemy has a Demolisher type of CC immunity, where certain abilities like sleep or Ensnare only trigger on them once at 50% of their usual duration, and they are immune to being rag-dolled.** They will NOT, however, have Nullifier Bubbles randomly pop up. The second condition listed should be more than necessary.
-Operators can only be used a limited number of times, or not at all.

**They are still susceptible to things such as knockdown / knockback, Confusion from Rad procs or Nyx's Chaos, Disarms, Stuns like from Blind or Silence, and Finishers from Fatal Teleport, unlike Demolishers.

Warframe is at that point where even if all these restrictions were in place, it would still not be a serious challenge for a fully optimized team, but it would at least mean you need to build a decent, well rounded kit in order to compete. It would also incentivize players to not simply rely on the usual CC and damage effects a lot of modern Warframes rely on and instead need to use status. such as Cold, Radiation, Blind, etc.

Hopefully Trials make it back in some way, doubt it'll happen this year tho. They were one of the only game modes that necessitated coordinated team play and strategy when quite a lot of content even today is both easy to do, and sometimes easier to do, solo.

I'd prefer the game's balance be addressed properly instead of DE using some of their band-aids again to make something that is ultimately a far cry from the game's potential. That being said, I'd prefer the band-aids above trails being applied to Drifter.

[PR1D3]

Without going into a rant I agree with most if not all of these. I think the energy reserve reduction is a bit too far even though you're also suggesting cooldowns for abilities. Cooldowns with no way to spam energy restores would be enough. Honestly, if there was a better designed 'new' WF on creating solid foundations cooldowns on abilities should be considered as a base thing. Second, I though about it and I don't get the demand for raid content from the wider community. I get why I and other people would want it for the challenge and co-op gameplay but content like that is kryptonite to a lot of players. Hell, the old hype footage of railjack screams 'actual raid content' if they had actually made that stuff.

[Learicorn]

2 hours ago, Xamuswing said:

 something like a Mesa with an optimized kit will just shred through every enemy she comes across without fuss all the way up to Lvl 5000 before Shatter Shield starts to actually fall off.

Then make trial enemies start at level 5000

Don't put restrictions on players' gear, please. There's plenty of modes that already do that. The whole reason why people want a real challenging game is so they can use ALL the gear they've worked hard and farmed for to their heart's content without it being overkill. Don't take away their gear, encourage its use. Hell, make it almost impossible to beat unless you use 5 different types of specters. I want them to be useful for SOMETHING.

[Dark_Lugia]

Yeah!
Let's take Warframe out of Warframe. That's always been the most annoying part of this game: Playing as a Warframe.

I really love being forced to play as slow, clunky Necramechs in Orphix Venom, slow , clunky Khal-175 in his weekly mission and slow, clunky Drifter in Duviri.

I´m totaly not here for fast paced running and gunning with demi-god like abilities that are fun and useable.

[PR1D3]

5 minutes ago, Learicorn said:

Don't put restrictions on players' gear, please. There's plenty of modes that already do that. 

Eh, there's only a handful of stuff that do that.

5 minutes ago, Learicorn said:

The whole reason why people want a real challenging game is so they can use ALL the gear they've worked hard and farmed for to their heart's content without it being overkill.

I don't get this response. Hard to tell if its a sentence structure issue or what but I'll attempt to address. Part of the limitations that OP is suggesting, and what you see in the few modes that do it (Archons, Circuit, Arbitrations, Sorties) is due to how our power has become excessive overkill. I don't see how any challenge can be obtained when you allow players to (for example) have free reign to the gear wheel. Again, there's a reason why it's restricted in modes that are supposed/designed with challenge in mind. Cause you're not going to look me dead in the eyes and say that someone whipping out specters, crewman on call using some meta aoe weapon, pizza spam, and hell for S#&$s and giggles throw in wukong is challenging.

14 minutes ago, Learicorn said:

Don't take away their gear, encourage its use. Hell, make it almost impossible to beat unless you use 5 different types of specters. I want them to be useful for SOMETHING.

LMFAO, NO. Jesus Christ. I actually exploded into hysterical laughter reading this. This game has enough problems. People already use specters to an excessive degree when there's no barrier to prevent them from doing so. To suggest not only allow more of it but to necessitate a legion of AI companions to effectively play the game for you to do well is completely unreal. Outright insanity.

Hell, with the way how some people are in the community with this 'game plays itself' notion, instead of making Warframe work on Mobile they should just make a new game in the WF Universe but have it be a gatcha game like AFK Arena. Make the Plex Cards the gatcha system itself. Oh god it designs itself.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

what if they were Drifter focused?

This would be like that time DE tried to tell players that Sanctuary Onslaught was the reintroduction of Dark Sectors. Yike. You're missing the entire point of Trials if you limit players to Drifter. There's really no point in adding a "raid type" content update that basically tells everyone with thousands of hours "lol you invested in your account for no reason".

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This would be like that time DE tried to tell players that Sanctuary Onslaught was the reintroduction of Dark Sectors. Yike. You're missing the entire point of Trials if you limit players to Drifter. There's really no point in adding a "raid type" content update that basically tells everyone with thousands of hours "lol you invested in your account for no reason".

Good point, Drifter Trials Bad when put like that 

[CephalonCarnage]

A better way to reduce the power creep is to remove the power. Simples!

How about for trials, DE addsa  new loadout (call it T to go with existing ABC) and this is limited to (say) 10 mod points, like you were MR 10. Then you can do appropriately levelled enemies with this kit. You can build as you like, mod how you like, have it saved without too muhc trouble and fight enemies as they were intended for balance. It might be L5 enemies you're fighting or l10 ones, and they'll be enough of a challenge without being stupid easy. You can even use your bramma without restriction because its not got OP with 8 forma, primed mods and every arcane possible.

Maybe 10 isn't enough for varied builds, and you need 20 mod points or 30. Maybe the trials could be severla stages with increasing mod capacities as you go.

 

As for raids, its probably better to just let players go wild, but make the missions more co-op so there's less of a problem if someone is nuking everything (like Railjack in the old days before they nerfed it, it was beautiful to see players working together). You could make it more of a challnge by putting enemies you cannot kill in the mix. Nuke them all = fail. Charge in kill-crazy = fail. Kill all but the warden with the keys and the prisoner = success. That'll be a true challenge!

This is the ultimate end-game challenge for Warframe: talking and co-operating with other players. It'll be too challenging for most!

[(PSN)robotwars7]

23 hours ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

what if they were Drifter focused?

we won't get trials, with either warframes or their counterparts

- warframe raids would, as OP says, require insane levels of power restriction, such as forced cooldowns, enemy immunity etc, which we've already seen plenty of and it just turns players off; contrary to popular belief, the people insisting on challenge in warframe are just a very vocal minority: the vast majority of us play warframe because of the power fantasy it offers. without that, this game would never have succeeded like it has. if people want to do a raid with ability cooldowns, ultra tough enemies etc, they can go play Destiny 2, it has all those things for them.

- drifter raids on paper could work in regards to offering a real challenge, but people are also sick of taking the focus away from warframes, myself included. I started playing this game way back in 2015 and have kept playing because again, power fantasy, being a magical space ninja that destroys everything with impunity. it therefore ends up being quite jarring when you are forced into the role of Drifter, or Kahl: your mobility is gone, your damage is heavily nerfed, and it ends up feeling like you're playing an inferior version of warframe. at first I didn't mind the different characters, but after Duviri, I just want the focus to go back to the warframe's themselves.

- there's always Kahl raids, but he's even slower than Drifter.. and it'd be even more painful.

even if DE somehow managed to create some level of challenge, there are other issues to watch out for too, such as rewards; if trials are supposed to be an "endgame" activity, then what can they offer that players don't already have? bearing in mind some people will complain about cosmetics/items they want being gated behind the mode anyway. fact is, it's a mode that would be destined to fail in warframe, one way or another. I know because I did trials when they were around, so I've already seen it happen once before.

 

[TeaHands]

I mean depending on the length of the raid, I'd love to incorporate as much content as possible. Start as Drifter/Operator, move on to Necramech/Railjack/Kahl/Anything else similar for a section, then bring in the Warframes for the final stretch and then final boss fight.

[MutoManiac]

 

On 2023-07-18 at 6:58 AM, Xamuswing said:

-Ammo does not drop from enemies. In order to restore ammo, you must use canisters and lockers in the missions, or something like Protea's Dispensary. Maybe implement a station you can restore ammo at once every 60s.

I like most of the suggestions except this one. For me and many others, if they restrict ammo more, then I'd need to play more melee which is not ok and is not as fun as guns. We'll all just be playing with the ammo regen weapons limiting our choices and enjoyment of everything else. They messed up on the ammo nerfs, let's not encourage DE to do more. 😉

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

I dont have an UNCOOL idea, i have a cool idea. 
"Difficult" content in warframe - raid bosses - should be multi stage marathon bosses that dont have DPS checks or invulnerability stages, where the difficulty is in not getting hit by telegraphed attacks and dealing with mobs. 

Grineer: Kuva wyrm; A mechanical dragon with kuva and grineer blood flowing through it that requires a fight in  multiple stages; 
1) Sabotage: The grineer have revived an orokin masterpiece, and if its finished would shift the balance of power to a terrifying degree. Destroy it before it matures.

2) The prelim stage; The Kuva Wyrm will sit at the back behind a broken incubator, spewing balls of red energy across a large area. Around the arena are 5 incubator regulators, Players must defend all five against Kuva-maddened grineer until Ordis can disable them. This should take 5 minutes of defense, with the enemies being around level 80.  

3) The ground stage: The Kuva Wyrm breaks out of the weakened incubator once ordis has hacked them; Any part of its body takes damage, but only the exposed heart takes full damage. The kuva wyrm is level 100, and should have about 5 million base HP. The Kuva Wyrms attacks in this stage consist of sweeping AoE fire swathes, claw and tail swipes with a large area (all of which are telegraphed with energy on the ground), and every 100K damage dealt the Kuva Wyrm will collapse, allowing melee to hit the heart.
The necramech will be available in this stage, as will archgun deployment. 

4) The Archwing stage: The Kuva Wyrm, heavily wounded, will seek out kuva to heal itself and destroy the ship its on Jordas golem style. It will then wrap itself around the kuva fortress kuva storage. Tenno leave the ship crewship style, entering archwing mode. Tenno must destroy 9 tendrils from the heart to the kuva storage, with each tendril dealing about ~12% HP. Players can also continue to do damage like the previous stage, however the heart is no longer a weak spot. When all 9 tendrils have been destroyed, the Kuva Wyrm will scream and disable the archwing, then fall from the kuva fortress onto earth; Specifically, a desert. 

5) The final stage: The kuva wyrm will fly around for 3 minutes, then stay on the ground for 2 minutes. It is level 200 in this stage, and should have around 10 million base HP. Its attacks will consist of large fireballs whose landing locations are telegraphed by energy on the ground, an AoE scream that knocks every away eidelon style, a dive bomb attack, and a continuous fire breath attack from the area. The ground attacks are the same as its ground stage. During this stage grineer drop ships will spawn every 60 seconds and release a squad of 1 kuva carrier who the dragon will try to eat to heal 10% of its HP, 1 eximus of a random type, and 6 grineer of random types. These grineer will be level 120, with the exception of the carrier who is level 80. 

6) The rewards: A, A, B, B, C
A)  Ayatans, Ducats, Kuva, Endo, 8 hour boosters, Wyrm sigil.
B) Corrupted mods, Steel miridian faction offerings, Riven slivers, Rivens.
C) Orokin Wyrm armor; A special armor set that adds proper draconic accessories, in the orokin style. 
C) Kuva Wyrm ephemera: A special ephemera that shrouds a warframe in the aura of the kuva wyrm.
C) Kuva wyrm weapon parts (Blueprint, and 3 parts+Kuva): A melee weapon based on the wyrms claws that deals high slash with a guranteed slash proc on crit and a primary arm cannon themed after the wyrm itself that deals huge continous fire damage with guranteed fire procs on crit. Both weapons are crit weapons, and have negligable status chance. 

THEN you can have "hard mode" which doubles the enemy levels, but changes the reward scheme to A, B, B, C, C. If you complete "hard mode" then you unlock "Extreme mode" which disables the use of consumables (note: Does not disable the gear wheel, just consumables. You can still summon deployables, just not restores or specters) and triples enemy levels but changes the reward scheme to A, B, C, C, C. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

Here's the thing, the so called "difficult" is mostly putting so many limitations and debuffs on your team while putting enemies beyond the current hard limit on your power and what's next? Rewards in shape of gears that make the fight easier and you demand more "difficult" which is the same crap circle of grinding non-stop as "content" to "gain more power"

You want something to be permanently difficult? I doubt it'll exist, even if we make Void Armageddon having enemies attacking two points at once and going for both points and relic on steel path won't stay difficult forever once someone figured out how to solo it