Armor, Status, and Damage rework, meta murder

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

Hot take: Armor should be a healthbar number seperate chunk of bar on the healthbar (so in this case [Overguard > Shield > Armor > health] ) [im not gonna make this look pretty] No longer a hot take but now spite against the lazy and illiterate Gatekeepers

My goal is to provide a Concept Example for Armor to be an appropriate Buffer against damage But not an absolute,

Also preventing Afk or Braindead bullet absorbing without screwing over innocent players

600 Armor Being the Minimum Effective to just aim for Health. NO.

Limiting Armor to a Maximum Effectiveness of 3000. NO (looking at you Vidar Plating]

 

Bibliography

Spoiler

Armor Rework

Armor And Status

Shield And Status

Status Rework

Status Procs

Self damage or stagger self

Adaptation and Straight up Non Armor DR

 

Armor Rework- Example Inaros- takes 100 damage, Damage Formula [ 100D -DR then split A50 / 50H ]  Armor A/H Health

This is to try to force players and enemies to take breather from Combat instead of Wisp or Inaros

Pickups• Firstly [ Health Orbs Will Heal 10% per Orb to Warframes and Archwings 25% Armor per Orb to Companions and Necramechs]

(and unique orbs like Lavos's Universal Orbs or Protea's Dispensery Orbs will Heal 50% more Armor with Mentioned Prior)

Crits• [Depending on how it goes Criticals shouldn't affect Armor, But should continue to affect Health]

 

-Warframes• [Will split Damage 50/50, no Minimum Armor] {Will Regenerate 14% 8 seconds or 17% 6 seconds Armor Per second at All times (Helminth reasons)}

-Companions• [Will split Damage 40/60, no Minimum Armor] {Will Regenerate 14% Armor Per second after 1.5 seconds of undamaged and will continue until full}

-Archwings• [Will split Damage 40/60 or Vice Versa, no Minimum Armor] {Will Regenerate 17% Armor Per second after 2 seconds of undamaged and will continue until full}

-RailJack• [Will split Damage 30/70, but Minimum Armor will be left at 20%] {Will Regenerate 5% Per second after 4 seconds (Depends on DE and Plating) of undamaged and will stop when damaged}

-Necramechs• {Will split Damage 30 or 25/70 or 75, but Minimum Armor will be left at 10%] { Will Regenerate 14% Armor Per second after 1 second of undamaged and will continue until full}

-Grineer• [Will split Damage 35/65, no Minimum Armor] {Will not Regenerate, Have Rollers stop and heal 5% Armor to their Comrades

-Corpus• [Will Split Damage 25/75, no Minimum Armor] {Will Regenerate at 2% Per Seconds after 4 seconds of undamaged, Have Ospreys/Ratel/Minima Moas Stop and heal 3% Armor to Comrades}

-Corpus Robotics• [Will split Damage 75/25, but Minimum Armor will be left at 5%] {Will not Regenerate, Have Ospreys/Ratel/Minia Moas Stop and heal 15% Armor to Comrades}

-Bosses• Example Sargus rux [Will split Damage 20/80, but Minimum Armor will be left at 25%] {Example Rux will Regenerate after 5-7 seconds of undamaged but will stop when damaged, Depends on Regeneration DE's Choice}

-Liches• Has Damage attenuation [Will split Damage 40/60, no Minimum Armor because DA] {Will not Regenerate, But can heal Armor with Abilities or Lich Allies}

-Sisters• Has Damage attenuation [Will split Damage 20/80, no Minimum Armor because DA] {Will not Regenerate, But can heal Armor with Abilities or Sister Allies}

-Sentients• Has adaptation Particles [Will Split Damage 70/30, no Minimum Armor] {Will Regenerate 5% Amor Per second at all times}

-Archons• Has Damage Attenuation and Automatic firing Suppression [ Will split Damage 5/95, but Minimum Armor will be left at 15-20% because DA] {Will Regenerate 2% Armor Per second after 9-15 seconds of undamaged}

Damage attenuation changes messed this up and im not going to fix those parts

 

Armor And Status interactions

Armoured individuals should have certainty, by Preventing the first shot from being their demise

Resist Certain Status Procs by Percentage of "Unboosted" Armor Remaining

-Resisted effects include: Stagger, Slash, Viral, Gas

-Possibly Resisted effects: Toxic, Radiation?, Blast, Heat,

  In return, Every Stat Resisted will chip 3% Armor, Reason (Armor does not stop you from being covered in lava, Swarms of rapidly moving Razor sharp bullets, Bullets in General WILL damage Armor but 100 Bullets. NO shouldn't have Armor left)

 

Shield And Status interactions on Enemies

Might aswell, Will Resist until shields reach 30% Capacity

When affected by Magnetic Disable Resistance to Status

-Resisted Effects: {Cold, Viral, Corrosive}

-Hindered Effects: Will lessen Proc Duration by 75% if 2/3 or less: {Slash Heat Radiation, Impact, puncture, Blast, gas}

  Shield does not need chip damage but will slowly deteriorate from Hindered Effects

 

Status Rework

Either A) Viral and Magnetic no longer deal Multiplied Damage towards Health and Armor

[ Certain Damage types will become useful in their own special way for synergy sake ]

Or/And

B) We keep Resistances and Weaknesses as is which leads to,

{it seems i took both}

Armor and Health split and what that means

Corrosive will now do more split Damage towards Armor

Viral will do more split Damage towards Health

Magnetic will Disable Shield Status Resistance/Hindrance

 

Status Procs

-Viral too good [Can now spread Status Procs instead of Multiplying Health Damage and corpses will now share procs for 3 seconds, Will also increase All Status duration to All Procs, Increased Status Effect stats to all Procs]

-Magnetic too specifically useful [Will disable Shield Regen instead of Multiplying Shield Damage, And disables both Players and Enemies Abilities including Bosses]

-Radiation too specific to use reliably [Will continue to cause infighting and increase Friendlyfire Damage, And will Randomly Proc an Enemies Abilities and lower its Damage by Half, Warframes will Randomly choose between the abilities and its your own risk to cast]

-Blast not good [Will continue to lower Accuracy and cause Enemies to be blinded at a 80% chance per proc added at max stacks 18% plus 7% per proc to full will be open to finishers(Inaros Desiccations Curse should work with that)]

-Corrosive currently good [Will continue to Lower Max Armor by Percentage but will deal 0.5-1-5% True Damage Per second at 8 or more Stacks

-Gas currently good [after 6-8 seconds Organic/Flesh will become Ragdolled or Knocked down for 4 seconds because they be suffocating]

-Electric Currently Pun Good [Chance to build Static shocks and split Damage to Surrounding Entities  and Chance for Crit/Double Damage Per surrounding Electric Proc]  

-Toxic Currently good [Deals more Damage to Health during the Armor/Health Split and has twice the base Duration/Lingers for longer]

-Cold Currently Well balanced [Gotva Treatment but Status, higher Status Vulnerablility Especially with Viral]

-Puncture Currently Well balanced [Maybe Gotva Treatment Chance for the crit to be higher]

-Slash it gets a Nerf it gets a Buff [Since Armor would Resist it chance to chip Health by 1 - 15% Enemies only]

-Impact the only one i don't know how to buff [Increase Damage Weakness And Resistances to All Damage 12% per Proc, (Straight up like Faction Damage to Any Affected Enemy) Higher Chance to Stagger, Knockdown or Ragdoll the Target or Straight up Comatose them standing]

 

Self damage or stagger self

As Stated Before The Player will take 50/50 Damage Split When Shields Are down

The Player Will Resist Stagger but Not Knockdowns Based on Maximum "Unboosted" Armor

Additive Armor Abilities like Parasitic Armor will Add OverArmor That will not increase or Decrease the Resistance Armor Percentage

1000 Parasitic Armor Will add Damage Reduction until 3000 and will take Split Damage but will not effect the Warframes Unboosted Armor Resistances

This also Includes: Inaros Scarab Armor, Wukongs Defy, Chromas Elemental Ward, and Similar like Health Conversion

This will not include: Armor Direct Mods, Base Armor, or Archon Shard Armor

if DE does not like this Then tie Status Resistance to Damage Reduction Stats or 90% at 3000 and reduced by Armor percentage instead of DR Formula

 

And instead of adding 12 health mods and 2 armor mods it could reverse

 

Adaptation and Straight up Non Armor DR

Can now be moved to 50% Just like that guy said in the Shield Gating is Ruining Warframe video

Caliban Can now be Powerful Without Buffing or Nerfing Him or Other Warframes via Adaptation Mod

Edited December 6, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89
Spite and a keyboard, Finishing missed bits

[nslay]

It's not a health bar, but you at least know when an enemy has 0 armor when the HP bar turns red (it's otherwise yellow).

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

im attempting to murder the meta

And allow balance for everything else

[0_The_F00l]

I can support this , the numbers need to be properly tweaked , but I can see this being more manageable than what 2e currently have.

I am down for meta murder (on a seasonal basis )

Edited August 3, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[(PSN)EntityPendragon]

No such thing as meta here, nothing to compete over. 

Armor was damn good for normal star chart and it served it's purpose, that being said needlessly complicating armor does nothing but make people upset, since we already do just fine without anything like this. Furthermore, steelpath has yet to be expanded upon for any potential rewards (Ignoring circuit) and they haven't and probably won't ever build activities on level cap since the amount of people that play levelcap (or steelpath for that matter) are barely double digits in percentage and DE always caters to the middle ground and below. Which leaves the normal starchart, which armor is already overkill for if you play the game even a little bit.

I am however all for making other statues do cool things to shake up build variety and making blast useful for once would be awesome.

Personal suggestions on status's.

Blast: Build stacks on an enemy (Up to 10) to cause a violent explosion that causes damage based on what was dealt before the explosion and the crit bonuses( Damage, chance) Any enemy still standing (Effected by the explosion but not dead) will be blinded for a short period (7s)

Impact: Full stacks remove overguard.

Toxin: Does increasing damage the longer target is effected. Further stacks increase the rate of increase.

Corrosive: Increase max stacks to 15. Armor strip caps at 9. When max stacks are achieved, causes a brief splash where the target loses all armor and nearby targets are effected as well. (Short range.) Damage increase is not lost when strip achieved.

Magnetic: When target reaches max stacks, creates a brief succ effect that brings enemies closer to the target.
 

[trst]

The problem here is that your core premise, that armor is a pain, is flawed. Armor isn't a pain when we already have the damage to brute force it, even in SP, and have access to a multitude of abilities, statuses, and mechanics that reduce/bypass armor. While it should be a pain if you omit all the systems that interact with it, just as every other system/mechanic should be if you approach it that way.

Also there's no meta to "murder" here as armor stripping, while often valuable, isn't even meta. But creating a situation where enemies are resistant to status effects and have more upfront DR is just going to create a meta. Because having armor reduce the viability of scaling damage via status procs and optimizing for raw damage just inflates the value of up front armor stripping.

 

As for reworking some status effects yeah there are still some problematic ones that need adjustments/reworks. But the ones that interact with armor are probably the most "balanced" effects we currently have. Even slash isn't that problematic on its own as its strength is largely propped up by its synergy with Viral which is one of the problematic effects.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Armor for enemies isn't an issue when you can:

1. Make enemies susceptible to more damage via abilities like Nezhas chakram or novas 4.

2. Literally strip armor...

3. Not go to level cap and still enjoy the game and get rewards. 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

To murder meta, make aoe weapons be at stugs range for secondaries and lenz at primary. And make nemies immune to viral! 

Then there will come next meta... and in the end it be just circle dance of rating metas.

Besides when we get corrosive procs on us it already reduces our armor, and enemy there for do more dmg!

You cant kill meta. Because when things changes meta just adjust to new situation. 

Your idea cahnge would be making game khal  mission like  , best there is, and rely on mechanical skill rather than time invested building and farming user favourite set up.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

you can't murder the meta, it's a zombie: totally braindead, but no matter how many times you put it down, it just keeps getting back up, or even if you kill it, there's always another one out there, somewhere.

armor works fine as it is, it's really more of a gear check than anything else: got armor stripping elements/abilities? good. don't have those? well, guess you'll have to brute force it as best you can. without armor though, the game would be even more of a cakewalk than it already is, and I think that would send a lot of players packing.

the only other version of an armor system I'd like to see is one where you have to damage and remove sections of armor off a target, a bit like we have to do with the Thumpers, removing the leg plates to expose its weak spots. sadly this would be more effort than I think DE is willing to provide for standard enemy types, so we're likely stuck with the current system forever. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

Aslong as we have the power we have, changing how hp overall works wont matter if the ehp stays the same.

Look at it this way. You change armor to be another health type to remove, but the end ehp is the same. That means since armor will be the first to go if no shields or overguard is present, then it will go on the first shot, not really doing anything versus the status that eventually kills the target, just like now. You'd likely see an improved TTK for us since more DoT types would deal massive damage after the initial hit removes armor, unlike now where armor is always present till the last hp is removed, unless you use a specific defense strip.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

22 hours ago, (PSN)EntityPendragon said:

No such thing as meta here, nothing to compete over. 

Armor was damn good for normal star chart and it served it's purpose, that being said needlessly complicating armor does nothing but make people upset, since we already do just fine without anything like this. Furthermore, steelpath has yet to be expanded upon for any potential rewards (Ignoring circuit) and they haven't and probably won't ever build activities on level cap since the amount of people that play levelcap (or steelpath for that matter) are barely double digits in percentage and DE always caters to the middle ground and below. Which leaves the normal starchart, which armor is already overkill for if you play the game even a little bit.

16 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

armor works fine as it is, it's really more of a gear check than anything else: got armor stripping elements/abilities? good. don't have those? well, guess you'll have to brute force it as best you can. without armor though, the game would be even more of a cakewalk than it already is, and I think that would send a lot of players packing.

A im not talking steelpath endurance, im talking about armor health equals your healthbar but more thoughtout to realistically work and to functionally change gameplay for both warframe, operator, khal, enemies, bosses, unfair bosses

Example- corpus weapons usually a variety or puncture, grineer has armor and is worn down overtime,

Grineer use impact and slash, fire against corpus, who have shields and no armor

Against infested both grineer and corpus would fight but eventually lose

Sentients would have adaptation to counteract your weapons strengths but still get worndown especially by the void

This is a foot hold for warframe battlefront but specifically the grineer murdering meta, they are an army, fight them like you match them

Instead of one tap slash dead

21 hours ago, trst said:

The problem here is that your core premise, that armor is a pain, is flawed. Armor isn't a pain when we already have the damage to brute force it, even in SP, and have access to a multitude of abilities, statuses, and mechanics that reduce/bypass armor. While it should be a pain if you omit all the systems that interact with it, just as every other system/mechanic should be if you approach it that way.

A i put things in the wrong order, maybe i made it sound too complicated, but dont assume that im foolish stupid, this isn't an idea for just enemies, but warframes, specters, allies, objectives, companions, eidolons, orb spiders, necramechs

This idea changes everything which is why you should read then critique

On 2023-08-03 at 12:19 PM, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

Hot take:

the armor value may need retweaking but that depends on the route, Either:

90% DR downwards percentwise no matter how low or high the value

Or armor stats work the same ie 100 armor = 25% DR which the same problem currently

just with hitpoints to absorb damage so the player can actually sit down to heal without it being 100 hp per sec or 45% hp per sec

Currently 3000 armor and up are the exact same, but with the rework 10k armor is 7k more than 3k but armor loses hit points with damage Then shares something like 1/5 damage with Health points

Aka your life/health matters but your armor matters aswell instead of being a backround static effect

Warframes would still be limited and everyones hard ons for grineer armor would be shelved allowing room for more than just viral or slash.   and the ehp even with DR would actually be lower with the idea, especially enemies (Kuva Liches) =less crit requirement more weapon viability without adding overbuffs ie arcanes, incarnons

And deimos could actually be fun aswell 

Edited August 4, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89
like really its just a second shield bar with 2 steps forward and back

[trst]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

A i put things in the wrong order, maybe i made it sound too complicated, but dont assume that im foolish stupid, this isn't an idea for just enemies, but warframes, specters, allies, objectives, companions, eidolons, orb spiders, necramechs

This idea changes everything which is why you should read then critique

I did read it, and my conclusion is that there's no reason to change the way armor works on enemies because of all the methods we have to ignore/interact with it. As well your not going to "murder" any metas but instead enforce a single armor stripping meta.

As for everything else there's also no reason to change how it works. We have multiple ways to improve survivability with or without buffing armor.

 

Also it helps if you actually make an entire post first instead of editing the same one multiple times. Especially if said post is well over a day old and you're still not done with it.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

13 minutes ago, trst said:

As for everything else there's also no reason to change how it works. We have multiple ways to improve survivability with or without buffing armor.

its not just about survivability or damage, its a hot take its about gameplay and a common complaint

14 minutes ago, trst said:

I did read it, and my conclusion is that there's no reason to change the way armor works on enemies because of all the methods we have to ignore/interact with it. As well your not going to "murder" any metas but instead enforce a single armor stripping meta.

you mean the two metas, slash and ability armor strip you are defending

Compared to not being forced to few to no options, but instead can now use anything else well enough

This is why meta needs to die, you defend what your used to instead of what could be better

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

20 minutes ago, trst said:

Also it helps if you actually make an entire post first instead of editing the same one multiple times. Especially if said post is well over a day old and you're still not done with it.

the more someone scrolls the less they will read

And ideas don't plan out or stay in one moment example warframe worked on for atleast 10 years

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

36 minutes ago, trst said:

I did read it, and my conclusion is that there's no reason to change the way armor works on enemies because of all the methods we have to ignore/interact with it. As well your not going to "murder" any metas but instead enforce a single armor stripping meta.

As for everything else there's also no reason to change how it works. We have multiple ways to improve survivability with or without buffing armor.

also this isn't much a critique as much as its pointing out the obvious or specifying why a change should occur

The only viable critique

38 minutes ago, trst said:

Also it helps if you actually make an entire post first instead of editing the same one multiple times. Especially if said post is well over a day old and you're still not done with it.

was this and yet

39 minutes ago, trst said:

I did read it

On 2023-08-03 at 12:19 PM, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

I'll finish this in a bit i think im done with this now

You signed the contract no bs allowed, exercise caution next time please aedu

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

A better critique is something like

What about dragon keys

Answer apply health debuff to the armor hitpoints

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

Crit-ique about crits

Would the armor be like object health, arctic bubbles, ramparts

Critical resistant giving all weapons a fair go instead of damage effective ones

Since the game relies on status and crit more than the damage type itself

(except unique scenarios eidolons, bosses, liches)

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

This type of thread is the reason i heed this rework

saying you have multiple ways to solve it still results in one specific Meta

and even if it only suppresses the armor and ehp issues this rework is atleast a thought to let others breathe instead of ignoring and neglecting the obvious

heed this warning because one day it will matter

[FA22_RaptoR]

That's basically how the armor system works in Everspace 2. Shields completely protects against physical damage, armor completely protects against energy weapons, once those are down your health is exposed (pretty much ALL weapons do both damage types, but usually more skewed to one or the other). You'll pretty much always have an energy buster weapon and an armor buster weapon for the tougher enemies. (most weapons will shred the potato enemies easily enough). With that said, weapon switching is instant, and weapons have unlimited ammo and recharge even when stowed. They make it rewarding to utilize 2 different (or 3) weapons for different purposes.

Your armor and shield level/power determines what damage reduction you get, and they give you ways to regenerate both (shields automatically after a delay, and armor rebuilds with kills)

I don't know how easily it could be changed, but the idea of shields and armor protecting against different damage types is certainly interesting. it could bring physical damage types back into usefulness and the elemental damage types would still have their uses, If an enemy shreds your shields down, it's not going to do much against your armor, so you want to focus on enemies based on what kind of damage they are doing.

Anyways, just rambling here more than anything.... Everspace 2 certainly has its problems but I do think the armor/shield/damage system was pretty well done.

[trst]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Mastermitchel89 said:

This type of thread is the reason i heed this rework

saying you have multiple ways to solve it still results in one specific Meta

and even if it only suppresses the armor and ehp issues this rework is atleast a thought to let others breathe instead of ignoring and neglecting the obvious

heed this warning because one day it will matter

Except if you read what that OP is talking about it's making weapons self sufficient for SP Circuit. Which is content where you can't rely on getting specific setups thus taking the most reliable all-round one weapon option is the only reliable choice. Plus you're dealing with enemies in the several thousand to level cap range where a solution is necessary.

So it's not a meta issue, it's an issue with restricted access limiting viable options. If players had the option to always get an armor stripping frame or some other setup that lets them brute force enemies of that level range then there'd be no need to build weapons with one specific build. And in the end Circuit isn't even something that requires or justifies building everything a specific way just in case you get it as an option.

And even if Slash builds were the be all end all of the SP Circuit meta what does it matter when that's in the single mode that can push you to level cap by design? Take whatever else you want and it'll work in the other 99.9% of the game.

[Waeleto]

On 2023-08-03 at 12:24 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Armor for enemies isn't an issue when you can:

1. Make enemies susceptible to more damage via abilities like Nezhas chakram or novas 4.

2. Literally strip armor...

3. Not go to level cap and still enjoy the game and get rewards. 

Nah cause FR, people are do level cap are so anti fun and come here to cry about enemies being too strong like no one is forcing you to do level cap dear 

[Silligoose]

12 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Nah cause FR, people are do level cap are so anti fun and come here to cry about enemies being too strong like no one is forcing you to do level cap dear 

The issue for many isn't enemies at lvl cap being "too strong", but the pigeonholing of loadout due to imbalances pertaining to mechanics such as armour. If anything, many would love to see enemies at level cap (and far lower than that) be more durable, but to have more loadout options be competitive choices.

The scaling is so imbalanced, damage types that are supposed to be good choice vs armour due to status effect, damage type bonus and/or partial armour bypassing (eg corrosive, puncture, radiation) are completely outclassed by armour stripping/bypassing mechanics multiple times over.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The issue for many isn't enemies at lvl cap being "too strong", but the pigeonholing of loadout due to imbalances pertaining to mechanics such as armour. If anything, many would love to see enemies at level cap (and far lower than that) be more durable, but to have more loadout options be competitive choices.

The scaling is so imbalanced, damage types that are supposed to be good choice vs armour due to status effect, damage type bonus and/or partial armour bypassing (eg corrosive, puncture, radiation) are completely outclassed by armour stripping/bypassing mechanics multiple times over.

They're also pigeonholed because they aren't putting effort into their builds or exploring or gaining experience in anything other than specific meta builds like Wisp and Ogris. 

All the tools are there, but no one is using them or lack the time/experience to learn something else.

A player's lack of knowledge and skill is always dismissed so people can blame everything on the game/mechanics/devs.

Share some of the blame all around at least. If a youtuber has to make videos specifically on making low forma or new person builds. It shows they have to dumb down their videos so people can work with the little tools they have.

[Silligoose]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They're also pigeonholed because they aren't putting effort into their builds or exploring or gaining experience in anything other than specific meta builds like Wisp and Ogris. 

All the tools are there, but no one is using them or lack the time/experience to learn something else.

A player's lack of knowledge and skill is always dismissed so people can blame everything on the game/mechanics/devs.

Share some of the blame all around at least. If a youtuber has to make videos specifically on making low forma or new person builds. It shows they have to dumb down their videos so people can work with the little tools they have.

The meta is borne from balance and/or lack thereof. Imbalances are what leads to formerly competitive choices, that should clearly remain competitive choices, no longer being competitive at higher levels of play/content. That is not the fault of the player.

Edit: It occurs to me that we may be referring to different concepts when using the term "meta". I use it to refer to the most effective/efficient tactic available, which tends to become a popular tactic within a game.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Silligoose

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The meta is borne from balance and/or lack thereof. Imbalances are what leads to formerly competitive choices, that should clearly remain competitive choices, no longer being competitive at higher levels of play/content. That is not the fault of the player.

THats kind of a bad take. A meta is 100% the fault of the playerbase; Its the players who choose the meta in warframe. Powercreep however IS a developer problem. Theres no reason why Toxin, Fire, Gas, and Slash shouldnt all work the same way, but Fire and Slash are the kings of DPS