regarding getting auto melee-ing

[L3512]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

What are you talking about?

That player wanted to "auto a semi auto weapon" but called it a "need". A semi auto weapon is classified as a semi auto weapon. They are generally more powerful per shot and rapid fire by button press falls in line with what the weapon is supposed to do. Players can choose an automatic weapon instead of a semi auto to suit their needs. However, OP wants the characteristics of a type of gun to be forced into another type, this eliminating the whole gunslinger mechanic. There are tons of grey areas there.

What a player can NOT do is select an auto melee weapon because there are none. A player with a disability cannot choose an auto firing option here. There are no choices so DE is adding the feature to address this so now ALL melees perform as an auto swing, which does not change the characteristics of the melee weapons. 

Pressing one key per shot or melee attack is the same, why does melee benefit from an auto function but semi auto guns don't? There are no grey areas, players could choose to use semi autos like they do now or they could choose to avoid RSI inducing amounts of clicking if we had such accessibility options for guns.

[Drasiel]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

What are you talking about?

That player wanted to "auto a semi auto weapon" but called it a "need". A semi auto weapon is classified as a semi auto weapon. They are generally more powerful per shot and rapid fire by button press falls in line with what the weapon is supposed to do. Players can choose an automatic weapon instead of a semi auto to suit their needs. However, OP wants the characteristics of a type of gun to be forced into another type, this eliminating the whole gunslinger mechanic. There are tons of grey areas there.

What a player can NOT do is select an auto melee weapon because there are none. A player with a disability cannot choose an auto firing option here. There are no choices so DE is adding the feature to address this so now ALL melees perform as an auto swing, which does not change the characteristics of the melee weapons. 

Agreed. I'm happy they are including this feature for melee. 

I will comment as someone with clicking issues, being forced to only use full auto guns or build a macro sucks MASSIVELY. Duviri is also kind of a real mess for this since if you don't roll an auto weapon you have to load into Duviri and abort repeatedly until you get something you can use. Which also resets your frame options too of course. 

Having a semi-auto fire at its listed fire rate by holding fire doesn't stop anyone else from still single-clicking it if they want to, especially if it's an option toggle. It doesn't change the recoil and since all of the stupidly fast click semi-autos were turned down to human-capable RoF with boosted damage instead, there isn't a huge advantage in burst DPS by automating it, and without the addition of -recoil mods you won't hit anything with most semi-auto's at max fire rate and an auto-click. 

There are 198 semi-auto weapons in the Primary and Secondary category out of 586 total primary and secondary weapons. That means if you can't use semi-auto weapons you basically can't use 33% of the normal weapons. If you add Burst, charge, and duplex triggers which have the same RSI issues and require the same muscle behaviour as semi-auto weapons you get 398 weapons or 67% of the normal weapons that you can't use. You can't expect people to be thrilled that they are limited to just over a third of the guns in the game because of an accessibility issue. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

 

 

Incredibly stupid contradiction.

When DE does it it's an accessibility feature, when a player that might have a disability asks for it it's a want not a need.

When a player who doesn’t have a disability asks for it, it’s a want. Nothing wrong with introducing the option for those with disabilities, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that someone would just want to use it because it can help automate some of the gameplay (and then tell someone else to do it, like automated gameplay is a no-brainer for everyone)

[L3512]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

When a player who doesn’t have a disability asks for it, it’s a want. Nothing wrong with introducing the option for those with disabilities, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that someone would just want to use it because it can help automate some of the gameplay (and then tell someone else to do it, like automated gameplay is a no-brainer for everyone)

It's a simple concept, you hold a key or mouse button instead of pressing or clicking it multiple times.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

second, if auto melee is simply "holding down the button/key," then you literally could just hold down the said key by putting something on top of it, so in other words, legalized automated spam.

i'd recommend not spreading misinformation. even though you likely won't be penalized for it, even though you should, what you say could encourage someone to break ToS and be penalized for it.

just because Melee will not require mashing the Button anymore doesn't mean that you can automate playing without being Banned. you still will.
stop spreading misinformation. so that you can prove that you're a Human Being that deserves to exist.

[(NSW)Greybones]

18 minutes ago, L3512 said:

It's a simple concept, you hold a key or mouse button instead of pressing or clicking it multiple times.

Sure. And one of the defining features of semi auto vs auto is that one of these things works like that with all the balance decisions surrounding such a design, and one doesn’t with all the decisions surrounding such a design.

I’m not arguing against introducing auto-fire for those who need it, I’m saying that there are players who are already building specifically for as much automation as they can get with builds titled things like “EZ Steel Path”, where they don’t need to move, barely need to aim, are completely bereft of any sort of decision making because they specifically want that. What is an accessibility option becomes a requirement for these players in order to give them that bit more of a legup in the automation department when they really just want to AFK and let the rewards come to them regardless of how much they complain about how unengaging the game is while they specifically seek ways to make it so, and then the option needs to be reconsidered because a bunch of doofuses with no idea what they really want ruined it for everyone

[Drasiel]

Just now, (NSW)Greybones said:

Sure. And one of the defining features of semi auto vs auto is that one of these things works like that with all the balance decisions surrounding such a design, and one doesn’t with all the decisions surrounding such a design.

I’m not arguing against introducing auto-fire for those who need it, I’m saying that there are players who are already building specifically for as much automation as they can get with builds titled things like “EZ Steel Path”, where they don’t need to move, barely need to aim, are completely bereft of any sort of decision making because they specifically want that. What is an accessibility option becomes a requirement for these players in order to give them that bit more of a legup in the automation department when they really just want to AFK and let the rewards come to them regardless of how much they complain about how unengaging the game is while they specifically seek ways to make it so, and then the option needs to be reconsidered because a bunch of doofuses ruined it for everyone

I'm sorry but having the muscle ability to rapidly click isn't a behaviour that affects balance. Holding a button doesn't change ROF, doesn't change recoil, doesn't increase damage per shot, doesn't make aiming easier (it actually makes it harder), and for most people results in more wasted ammo from poor trigger discipline. Not giving people RSI isn't going to affect the "balance" of semi-auto weapons. It would change the feel, which if you don't like that I can at least respect the opinion, but clutching pearls and going "Won't someone think of the children BALANCE!?" is the kind of idea that I would call the kind of name that would get me a forum time out.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, Drasiel said:

I'm sorry but having the muscle ability to rapidly click isn't a behaviour that affects balance. Holding a button doesn't change ROF, doesn't change recoil, doesn't increase damage per shot, doesn't make aiming easier (it actually makes it harder), and for most people results in more wasted ammo from poor trigger discipline. Not giving people RSI isn't going to affect the "balance" of semi-auto weapons. It would change the feel, which if you don't like that I can at least respect the opinion, but clutching pearls and going "Won't someone think of the children BALANCE!?" is the kind of idea that I would call the kind of name that would get me a forum time out.

If you don’t have a need, then changing it is a want. If you’re built to sit there and be invincible and are plugging away with little to no concern for anything that might cause you to be unable to actually do that, then you’re asking for a want. This is a shooter, the enemies are trying to kill you, one of the core differences between semi-auto and full-auto is what you can do in the time alotted between taking aim and staying alive, and standing around is an option you have to build for in most of the game.

If you’re suffering RSI, that’s a need.  If you’re throwing all the firerate or attackspeed mods onto a weapon and are giving yourself RSI because you’re specifically wanting to stand around and do so, that’s… a lot more questionable

[Drasiel]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

If you don’t have a need, then changing it is a want. If you’re built to sit there and be invincible and are plugging away with little to no concern for anything that might cause you to be unable to actually do that, then you’re asking for a want. This is a shooter, the enemies are trying to kill you, one of the core differences between semi-auto and full-auto is what you can do in the time alotted between taking aim and staying alive, and standing around is an option you have to build for in most of the game.

If you’re suffering RSI, that’s a need.  If you’re throwing all the firerate or attackspeed mods onto a weapon and are giving yourself RSI because you’re specifically wanting to stand around and do so, that’s… a lot more questionable

not sure why you're throwing your need vs. want comments at me considering I only responded to your comment about semi-autos being semi-auto for balance reasons, but I guess I'll take the time to inform you about one of the single most frustrating things about being disabled, sick, or crippled: Having to prove you are worthy of accessibility options and assistance. If you try to withhold support because of bad actors or people "using the thing wrong!" all you do is create unnecessary suffering for the group it's a problem for. This kind of gatekeeping has existed for a long time outside of the world of video games and having to prove it's a "need" not a "want" has killed people. Now I'm not so overdramatic as to say the consequences are anywhere near the same level as real life in a video game but it is the exact same bull S#&$ with a bit less stink.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

not sure why you're throwing your need vs. want comments at me considering I only responded to your comment about semi-autos being semi-auto for balance reasons, but I guess I'll take the time to inform you about one of the single most frustrating things about being disabled, sick, or crippled: Having to prove you are worthy of accessibility options and assistance. If you try to withhold support because of bad actors or people "using the thing wrong!" all you do is create unnecessary suffering for the group it's a problem for. This kind of gatekeeping has existed for a long time outside of the world of video games and having to prove it's a "need" not a "want" has killed people. Now I'm not so overdramatic as to say the consequences are anywhere near the same level as real life in a video game but it is the exact same bull S#&$ with a bit less stink.

Ah, my bad. I thought you were someone else.

Let the option be added. If someone needs it, it’s there. If someone wants it and abuses it and then complains that it should be removed because they can’t stop themselves from doing everything possible to automate the game out of the game and now DE need to step in and babysit, then that’s a problem. And this isn’t exactly a community of players who know the meaning of the word “Restraint”, so the chances of it becoming a problem are high

I’m already imagining players toggling it on because, combined with maximum firerate or attack speed, their DPeenS is high enough to climb even higher into Steel Path, and then they complain that they have to sacrifice mod slots for attack speed

[L3512]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m not arguing against introducing auto-fire for those who need it, I’m saying that there are players who are already building specifically for as much automation as they can get with builds titled things like “EZ Steel Path”, where they don’t need to move, barely need to aim, are completely bereft of any sort of decision making because they specifically want that. What is an accessibility option becomes a requirement for these players in order to give them that bit more of a legup in the automation department when they really just want to AFK and let the rewards come to them regardless of how much they complain about how unengaging the game is while they specifically seek ways to make it so, and then the option needs to be reconsidered because a bunch of doofuses with no idea what they really want ruined it for everyone

30 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Let the option be added. If someone needs it, it’s there. If someone wants it and abuses it and then complains that it should be removed because they can’t stop themselves from doing everything possible to automate the game out of the game and now DE need to step in and babysit, then that’s a problem. And this isn’t exactly a community of players who know the meaning of the word “Restraint”, so the chances of it becoming a problem are high

I’m already imagining players toggling it on because, combined with maximum firerate or attack speed, their DPeenS is high enough to climb even higher into Steel Path, and then they complain that they have to sacrifice mod slots for attack speef

These inane scenarios that you've created are not very relevant and the reason why I'll probably not waste my time replying. Apart from being factually wrong there is so much to pick apart but you prefer creating fantasies to actual conversation.

 

6 minutes ago, herflik said:

First of all, dont play games if you are not prepared for button mashing. There is always load of button mashing in every action game. Whining about this is like whining that you gotta chew your food before swollowing it.

Second, if you are PC player and have problem with it then you are a noob. Just put your melee on mouse wheel up and down = you spread it into two different slow moves that do multiple attacks effortlessly. Afterall most of you can scroll thru stupid webpages all day long.

Third, PC master, consoles are for weaklings with aim asist. Wont even bother helping them, because they are beyond help anyway.

Fourth, have some self respect and dont cry on internet that you fingers are tired by playing video game.

A truly useless post that you even forgot to add the use of marcos, which already did what DE are officially bringing in. People are simply asking for the same treatment for guns.

[(NSW)Greybones]

30 minutes ago, L3512 said:

These inane scenarios that you've created are not very relevant and the reason why I'll probably not waste my time replying. Apart from being factually wrong there is so much to pick apart but you prefer creating fantasies to actual conversation.

Hey, if I get proven wrong, so be it. Bring on the option and we’ll see how much of an option it is to most players

[Drasiel]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ah, my bad. I thought you were someone else.

Let the option be added. If someone needs it, it’s there. If someone wants it and abuses it and then complains that it should be removed because they can’t stop themselves from doing everything possible to automate the game out of the game and now DE need to step in and babysit, then that’s a problem. And this isn’t exactly a community of players who know the meaning of the word “Restraint”, so the chances of it becoming a problem are high

I’m already imagining players toggling it on because, combined with maximum firerate or attack speed, their DPeenS is high enough to climb even higher into Steel Path, and then they complain that they have to sacrifice mod slots for attack speed

ah, okay. Well the problem of the community making silly demands about things they do to themselves is a tale as old as time, and like a phoenix shall continually rise until the universe itself is a cold dead speck. 

To quote one of my favourite authors: 

"Ahem," said Vetinari. "But I understand that the offending affair can only be seen in any detail with quite a large magnifying glass, and so the offence, if such it be, is largely self-inflicted." 

You can't save people from themselves and I believe the lack of such an option is the far greater harm.

[(NSW)Greybones]

53 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

ah, okay. Well the problem of the community making silly demands about things they do to themselves is a tale as old as time, and like a phoenix shall continually rise until the universe itself is a cold dead speck. 

To quote one of my favourite authors: 

"Ahem," said Vetinari. "But I understand that the offending affair can only be seen in any detail with quite a large magnifying glass, and so the offence, if such it be, is largely self-inflicted." 

You can't save people from themselves and I believe the lack of such an option is the far greater harm.

I’m inclined to cautiously agree about the lack of an option being worse than the inclusion of one. And if there’s one thing that Warframe can be, it’s accessible. We’ve already got ways to build and play that I’d point out to someone as an option for them to use if they’re not particularly good at shooters or the game in general or need the leg up, where if they want to explore the game more in-depth and use alternatives that are a little more risky they can when they feel like it, but they’re not really forced to do so either

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Surbusken said:

like there was no nerf based on your word at face value...

That was literally implied nowhere. Not once was the nerfs mentioned. Things got nerfed, AoE was still king, and still remains king even with the introduction of incarnons. So as I said, AoE never went away anywhere between the nerf and genesis getting introduced.

15 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Guns require ammo (including the process of actually gathering it) and aiming, something melees don't. Melee in warframe involves sweeping attacks that effectively will damage any enemy in your general direction assuming they're close enough.

Conveniently skipping past all the benefits of ranged I see. Like being ranged for starters, meaning you arent always smack in the middle of the enemy, has better AoE on attacks 12-ish meters instead of 5-6m, has an easier time avoiding hotspots like leeches, since again you arent in the middle of everything, doesnt have to chase enemies to engage them due to point one and it doesnt have to be pinned into a focus tree to get most use of the modding. Plus ontop of it ranged gives a better view of the battlefield since everything isnt in your face, so you pick out things like guardians quickly and have a lower risk ending up inside nullies.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-08-29 at 1:43 PM, Surbusken said:

First criteria for nerfing wukong was "automation", if you remember the 3 criteria never heard of before or since, lol.

Now we got both AoE spam and 'automation' back.

 

We told you last year, China + mobile, the game is getting automated anyway.

Don't forget it went so far as to also ruin our specters, when you were busy defending it, so they neither have working weapons or abilities at this point.

 

And it only cost the biggest s-show in warframe history but hey time well spent!!1 WELL worth it.

Accessibility isn’t a bad thing. There shouldn’t be a difference in attack speed between holding a button down and just mashing it as fast as you can. Why are you making it seem like mashing a button as fast as you can is a skill worthy of praise?

 

Auto melee has been a long time coming. We have so many ways of increasing attack speed and essentially breaking combos in the process. I have sworn off of polearms because even a single attack speed mod makes them feel awful to use, while not having one is too slow. 
 

Auto melee, along with enemy highlights and a Hydroid rework, are the highlights of Tennocon if you ask me.  The rest was predatory cash grab whale hunting (Zenith), likely a new game mode that has zero respect for our progression and wears thin quickly like Kahl (1999), or too light on details to justify excitement (Whispers, Dagath).  Give me QOL and polish updates any day. 

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Auto melee, along with enemy highlights and a Hydroid rework, are the highlights of Tennocon if you ask me.  The rest was predatory cash grab whale hunting (Zenith), likely a new game mode that has zero respect for our progression and wears thin quickly like Kahl (1999), or too light on details to justify excitement (Whispers, Dagath).  Give me QOL and polish updates any day. 

I completely forgot about the enemy highlight thing, something I've wondered why it isnt in WF already. 

Regarding 1999. If it ends up progressless like Kahl it will be DoA, if it decreases the impact of current progression while adding something new to progress through I wont mind it one bit aslong as it keeps getting updates. If I can enter a "new" WF where I need to progress again under more balanced forms I'l welcome it aslong as the most important part of WF stays, the movement and the combat. I'd much rather make meaningful progress under a new system than adding something ontop of the pile of progress that has already broken through the ceiling.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

We will wait and see how it's actually implemented as afking is a concern for DE. Anyways, it's going to be a nice option especially for people with disabilities....and tennis elbow.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'd recommend not spreading misinformation. even though you likely won't be penalized for it, even though you should, what you say could encourage someone to break ToS and be penalized for it.

just because Melee will not require mashing the Button anymore doesn't mean that you can automate playing without being Banned. you still will.
stop spreading misinformation. so that you can prove that you're a Human Being that deserves to exist.

Ah yes because surely the purpose of my message was to tell people that they should abuse auto melee to afk.

As for the second part of your message, I specifically said with Vauban, which would only require direct interaction every time the vortex runs out or if an eximus is on the verge of killing you. 

Also (despite misinformation being something I was not trying to share), there are way more important things than misinformation that say if people should exist, and saying that I should "prove I'm a human being that should exist" is just childish.

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

We will wait and see how it's actually implemented as afking is a concern for DE. Anyways, it's going to be a nice option especially for people with disabilities....and tennis elbow.

I can't imagine auto melee being a concern regarding afk.  Anyone who tries to afk with automelee will invariably end up in a corner, or just getting shot by all the ranged enemies that are happy to stay out of melee range.  This isn't like Wukong's twin which can actively seek out targets, or nuking abilities that can hit at significant ranges.  In fact, if automelee were an issue with afk, it's likely we'd already see it because as already stated, setting up a macro to just mindlessly spam melee has been doable for years, yet nobody does it.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Surbusken said:

What do you mean

That is what I wonder regarding what you said. I mean you didnt even include what you quoted, which made it even less vague.

56 minutes ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

I can't imagine auto melee being a concern regarding afk.  Anyone who tries to afk with automelee will invariably end up in a corner, or just getting shot by all the ranged enemies that are happy to stay out of melee range.  This isn't like Wukong's twin which can actively seek out targets, or nuking abilities that can hit at significant ranges.  In fact, if automelee were an issue with afk, it's likely we'd already see it because as already stated, setting up a macro to just mindlessly spam melee has been doable for years, yet nobody does it.

I honestly have no idea how the people that mentions afking as a problem potentially tied to auto-melee even think, or if they think at all. I cant see a single scenario where auto-melee would allow for afking, since like you say it would eventually end up in a corner. It only goes in a straight line etc. unless people plan to use a bot, which would make it a problem now aswell since auto-input isnt a foreign idea for bots, so spamming E would result in the same right now.

Maybe those people have a secret that turns all mobs into melee units that always run up infront of you. 🤷‍♂️

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-08-30 at 3:59 AM, Loveframe said:

If the roadmap is to turn it into a mobile-first game then I assume we'll eventually get auto-all the things.

As far as i can see DE is only adding auto melee because they're making mobile

So this isn't a good sign, unless they actually continue with QoL no matter which device or update it should or shouldn't be relative to

[Letter13]

Let's try not to derail the thread.

Also, I suspect auto-melee is being implemented partially as an accessibility feature (that could be turned on/off if desired) or for users on mobile.

I highly doubt that it'll be forced on for all players. I see no reason to complain about it.

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

Let's try not to derail the thread.

Also, I suspect auto-melee is being implemented partially as an accessibility feature (that could be turned on/off if desired) or for users on mobile.

I highly doubt that it'll be forced on for all players. I see no reason to complain about it.

Are you suggesting we have reasonable reactions to changes in a game?  Why I never.

[Letter13]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

Are you suggesting we have reasonable reactions to changes in a game?  Why I never.