Nuke warframes should be nerfed

[Traumtulpe]

On 2023-09-18 at 5:31 AM, nslay said:

I personally play this frame in solo SP Circuit and I see what she can do to even SP enemies there! And it's all really really easy to do... you don't even have to press 4 and stuff just drops dead there. Give me a break. This frame should have been nerfed years and years ago.

This is a lie. Spores clear between every wave and do not ramp up fast enough to kill anything on Steel Path Circuit (unless you literally afk for several minutes at the start of every wave). Capping Saryn's Spores takes hours, and the cap is a lousy 100k damage that's completely useless at level cap.

Unless we're talking low level stuff Spores are a support ability, not a nuke, and Saryn is a weapons platform, not a caster.

On 2023-09-18 at 1:13 AM, Alukawaii said:

reduces the damage of aoe weapons by 90% [...] an enemy that counters aoe weapons

Guardian Eximus units have 90% resistance to AoE. And unless you kill them, everything else also gets 90% damage resistance from their aura - this pretty much hard counters AoE.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

10 hours ago, Leqesai said:

The only real question here is... why does your autocorrect default to "nude"... lol

.    Da faq 😂. Thx for catching that (sigh) will fix.

 

[Leqesai]

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

.    Da faq 😂. Thx for catching that (sigh) will fix.

 

lol

[nslay]

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is a lie. Spores clear between every wave and do not ramp up fast enough to kill anything on Steel Path Circuit (unless you literally afk for several minutes at the start of every wave). Capping Saryn's Spores takes hours, and the cap is a lousy 100k damage that's completely useless at level cap.

Unless we're talking low level stuff Spores are a support ability, not a nuke, and Saryn is a weapons platform, not a caster.

Oh yeah? You really want a boring old video of me collecting Decree Orbs while stuff is dropping dead in SP Circuit from *just* spores? I'll do it next time when I see her roll in SP Circuit. No problem! I think it's really very surprising that it can do that by itself.

My issue with Saryn is LoS. I don't care if you think she's a nuke or a weapons platform, or what your take is on Spores or if she scales to level cap. I don't care. Saryn should be constrained by LoS like almost every other nuke in the game. And I realize thematically this is challenging for a frame like Saryn. IMO, it still needs to happen.

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Unless we're talking low level stuff Spores are a support ability, not a nuke, and Saryn is a weapons platform, not a caster.

Yeah, I've heard this one before. Not to make a strawman or anything - it's more meant to be an analogy - but hey! Mesa is not a "nuke", she can't kill stuff in level cap fast/well (or something along these lines). For gosh sake, look at the very first response in this thread. Or what about Thermal Sunder? Oh... that's not a nuke, it doesn't work well in SP. Don't nerf that. Meanwhile, these posts continue to appear for a reason... can you guess why? Because this stuff is actually a nuke in parts of the game that players actually experience.

Now I'm talking sane amounts of play time like - you know - like ~1 hour, 2 hours tops. None of this "Well, in level cap..." that only a small handful of people actually push. I know you push level cap, but it's not really relevant what happens in level cap for everyone else.... c'mon. It's definitely impressive and tempting to talk about level cap... but really, it doesn't relate to most players.

 

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, nslay said:

Saryn should be constrained by LoS like almost every other nuke in the game. And I realize thematically this is challenging for a frame like Saryn. IMO, it still needs to happen.

Why? LoS is extremely buggy in this game. It's also extremely demoralizing/annoying when you use something like whipclaw in a group of enemies, only for a knee-high crate to leave behind a straggler. The majority of the things in this game shouldn't have LoS, especially as we get more and more cluttered "immersive" tile sets like the Zariman.

Or what, should we all be massive Revenant mains? Walking around with 20+ charges of invulnerability and status immunity, so we can plink enemies one at a time with mostly single-target weapons? (Though we can't forget the Glaive Prime, that gets to be the LoS exception.)

9 hours ago, nslay said:

Meanwhile, these posts continue to appear for a reason... can you guess why? Because this stuff is actually a nuke in parts of the game that players actually experience.

Yes, people will always be (largely) forced into playing stuff like level 30 Meso fissures on Saturn, so there will always be threads like this complaining something like Thermal Sunder kills too fast. But that doesn't discount the fact that a massive amount of content is also located in base Steel Path (not level cap), and TS Titania does jack-all there.

Quote

I like to put Spores on enemies and spread the spores in like SP Circuit Exterminate and walk around and look for Decree Orbs or Rune Marrow or whatever as they all drop dead just from just the Spores!

... *Eventually. It could also do a 1/10th the damage it currently does and still eventually kill enemies, that's just what happens with infinite duration abilities. The more pertinent thing is, how many times over would a different (better) frame kill those enemies in the same amount of time? You can smell the roses, pick the rune marrow, gargle the void flood balls, etc... all you want, but don't seriously try to use this as an argument. (And if you weren't in coop, where your teammates are spreading your spores and contributing damage, you'd see fewer kills and no new spores if you really are just "picking up marrow/balls".)

Also, I don't personally think you can say you "play this frame" when you don't even have 6,000 kills on her. (And I wonder what that number was pre-Duviri.)

Edited September 28, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, nslay said:

Oh yeah? You really want a boring old video of me collecting Decree Orbs while stuff is dropping dead in SP Circuit from *just* spores? I'll do it next time when I see her roll in SP Circuit. No problem! I think it's really very surprising that it can do that by itself.

Spores starts out at 10 damage, and increases by up to 14 damage per sercond.

Let's consider the EHP of a Corrupted Heavy Gunner level 150; She has effectively 1000 armor left after considering Corrosive damage and procs. That's 77% DR. She has 225.500 health.

So, she has roughly 1m EHP. We divide this by 3 because there are 3 Spores on each enemy = 333.333. Let's say we're satisfied with a 20 seconds time to kill, we'd need a spore counter of 16.666, in other words we'd need to wait about 1200 seconds. That's 20 minutes.

So, yes, if you wait 20 minutes at the beginning of every wave your Spores will kill. In other words you are talking nonsense.

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, Traumtulpe a dit :

Spores starts out at 10 damage, and increases by up to 14 damage per sercond.

Let's consider the EHP of a Corrupted Heavy Gunner level 150; She has effectively 1000 armor left after considering Corrosive damage and procs. That's 77% DR. She has 225.500 health.

So, she has roughly 1m EHP. We divide this by 3 because there are 3 Spores on each enemy = 333.333. Let's say we're satisfied with a 20 seconds time to kill, we'd need a spore counter of 16.666, in other words we'd need to wait about 1200 seconds. That's 20 minutes.

So, yes, if you wait 20 minutes at the beginning of every wave your Spores will kill. In other words you are talking nonsense.

While I agree with you, I think he was talking about Spores buffed by Decrees, that can kill much faster than outside the Circuit. You just need to get the Decree that gives you armor if you cause a Corrosive status and the one that gives you power strength depending on your amount of armor. In addition to this, the damage buff depending on the enemies affected by status effects and the buff while on movement can help a lot to make Spores and Miasma melt high level enemies much faster than outside the circuit.

But the fact that Sopres can melt high level enemies down when buffed by Decrees is not a reason to nerf Saryn or to say that Spores is a nuker ability, because the same thing could be said about many other abilities, not only Spores or Miasma : this argument is more about the power that Decrees can give you than about Saryn herself. Many frames will become extremely powerful with some Decrees and they can't be taken into consideration when talking about a specific ability.

By the way, that's why I agree with you (and why I think Spores could get some buffs, at least rise the cap on spores growth rate).

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

[...]

So how long does it take to get those two specific decrees in combination? 5 rounds? 10? 15? Because if I recall correctly it takes somewhere around 20 rounds to reach level cap, and at that point no decree can save spores - I've reached the spore cap at level cap, it does nothing, can't kill anything.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 44 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

So how long does it take to get those two specific decrees in combination? 5 rounds? 10? 15? Because if I recall correctly it takes somewhere around 20 rounds to reach level cap, and at that point no decree can save spores - I've reached the spore cap at level cap, it does nothing, can't kill anything.

Yes, I agree. Spores (and specially Miasma) will totally lose their efficiency at high level.

But if you are lucky, Decrees can help.

I was just saying that a "Circuit Saryn" cannot be a reason to say that her abilities are OP. I was totally agreeing with you and I still am😁.

[DrBorris]

As someone who personally enjoys Circuit, I sometimes wonder if it was a mistake simply because people would inevitably use an intentionally unbalanced game mode as a reference for balance.

Circuit in any and all forms is completely irrelevant to any and all balance discussions (that aren't about Circuit specifically). 

 

And on topic, this is why I think SP is the most balanced content in the game. More things are viable because instant nuking is (mostly) gone. More weapons are viable because status priming has a reasonable ttk next to simple 'meta' weapons. High DPS options like Mesa or Saryn are slowed not to the extent of being unsatisfying, but just enough that other gameplay styles have room to breathe next to them. Crowd Control even has a bit more usefulness as most things take a second to die. And while survivability can be a bit of an issue, most forms of defense are viable until you get up above level 200 (anything higher than that is irrelevant as there is no content designed around it). 

Edited September 28, 2023 by DrBorris

[Brucieman64]

This tug war between Fun and Challenge has been ongoing since Warframe itself.
Focusing on Saryn is, in my opinion, wasted time as she allready recieved a "nerf", or "rebalance". The way Saryn now works is on a group of living, close enemies. ESO provides just that.

But let's forget about Saryn for a moment. Let's say that a squad goes onto, say, an excavation mission. For an Archon hunt or fissure, just imagine a mission where you have an objective to defend.
SP or not, if one player nukes the room , it may leave disappointed one or more teammates, as we all crave the violence in Warframe. But it also means, the excavator(s) are now defended, until more enemy units spawn. The objective has been mantained. Batteries drop, and players get the reward, even if 1/4 is enjoing the game. You can ask the nuker to let the others "have fun" or not, and they may agree and apologize, or cuss, or not. It boils down to human nature.

In the "balanced" world, where nobody can nuke the map, the challenge of keeping up against infinite spawn of enemies may tire out one or more players. The squad may fail, completely. "This is too hard" will appear in the Forums. "please fix it, make it easier" can and will become the idea of the players. There are millions of way to go about it: "I have work and only have the opportunity to play during Weekends" vs "I play all the time since I have finished my homework fast". These are just opinions I've seen, I want you to understand, I am not judging anyone, Ninjas Play Free after all.


TL;DR: You have to choose between being the one who carries, or be carried.

This has been my experience in the past 7 years of Warframe, and I have made peace with it. Maybe aging and become more mature, not caring about "being top damage".
Remember when the new mission screens were added? this was a clever move by DE to sweep under the rug the damage stats. because people were literally insulting each other over dps.

To me, the perfect situation was the good old, buggy raids. DPS was needed as much as CC. Wich is no longer a possibility, now that Damage is King. But at the same time we can't just remove the Trumna, the Kuva Bramma. Thank you for reading.

[Hypernaut1]

I would love if DE nerfed nuke frames, but Warframe isn't that kind of game anymore. They're not in every match as much anymore, so just enjoy being able to contribute when you can. 

I would also love if DE gave our enemies a buff. We need Steel Path+ already with unnerfed enemy abilities.

[nslay]

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Why? LoS is extremely buggy in this game. It's also extremely demoralizing/annoying when you use something like whipclaw in a group of enemies, only for a knee-high crate to leave behind a straggler. The majority of the things in this game shouldn't have LoS, especially as we get more and more cluttered "immersive" tile sets like the Zariman.

So other people can play the game too! At least with LoS, there's something left to shoot in a shooter game. While you're trying to use Khora as an excuse for Saryn's exemption from this LoS rule, notice how LoS doesn't have to be buggy or noticeable on frames like Mesa.

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Or what, should we all be massive Revenant mains? Walking around with 20+ charges of invulnerability and status immunity, so we can plink enemies one at a time with mostly single-target weapons? (Though we can't forget the Glaive Prime, that gets to be the LoS exception.)

We're not talking about Khora or Revenant or Glaives... but hey, where's the Danse Macabre complaints? Oh... that one can't actually destroy an entire map of enemies with the press of a button, anywhere and everywhere, whether you can see them or not! So while spinning Revenants are annoying, at least something is left to kill. Yes, Saryn has a "setup", but I saw that it's not really that hard and I don't think it's a good excuse... but it does need some density.

[nslay]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

So how long does it take to get those two specific decrees in combination? 5 rounds? 10? 15? Because if I recall correctly it takes somewhere around 20 rounds to reach level cap, and at that point no decree can save spores - I've reached the spore cap at level cap, it does nothing, can't kill anything.

Don't worry, you'll get your video eventually! When she rolls...

I saw your Heavy Gunner math and I will add that SP Circuit doesn't spawn a lot of Heavy Gunners. I will try to find a Heavy Gunner for you and see how Decree Orb collecting and Spore ticking stacks. You see mostly stuff like Corrupted Butchers, Corrupted Lancers, Corrupted Ancient Healers, and the newer Duviri units. IIRC, the newer Duviri enemies don't even have armor while Butchers, Lancers, Ancient Healers have very little armor. The power carriers in Excavation are also pretty beefy with armor. I don't think Corrupted Bombards spawn in SP Circuit... they'd be beefy too.

Look, the intention of pointing out my experience with Spores in SP Circuit (without even needing to press 4) was just to show that nuking isn't relegated to very low level game play. Yes, as I wrote above, this example has problems since the enemies tend to have very little armor.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

nuking isn't relegated to very low level game play

"Nuking" isn't putting Spores on a group of enemies and going afk for longer than you'd need to complete the round of the Circuit in the first place.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Nuking" isn't putting Spores on a group of enemies and going afk for longer than you'd need to complete the round of the Circuit in the first place.

Funny, cos I've had rounds end faster than desired from spores with Saryn before they added Dr. Sermon to exterminate missions.

[nslay]

55 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Nuking" isn't putting Spores on a group of enemies and going afk for longer than you'd need to complete the round of the Circuit in the first place.

And when you watch the video and I'm not AFK and I'm picking up Decree Orbs as described?

Spores are part of the nuking setup... just you didn't need to press 4 in this case for stuff to drop dead.

[Veridian]

No.

Let everyone enjoy what they want.

Nobody's going over the hard stuck revenant mains that they can't enjoy playing trinity because their heals are made irrelevant.

WF is all about the power fantasy and if you don't like it, leave group and join another.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Veridian

[KitMeHarder]

11 hours ago, nslay said:

So other people can play the game too! At least with LoS, there's something left to shoot in a shooter game. While you're trying to use Khora as an excuse for Saryn's exemption from this LoS rule, notice how LoS doesn't have to be buggy or noticeable on frames like Mesa.

• "Something left to shoot" is a massive hyperbole in the Steel Path. Only one frame (not Saryn) off the top of my head maaay kill *non-armored enemies fast enough, in a large enough AoE, for other players using single target weapons to struggle to really get kills.
• I also don't know why you think labeling this game as a "shooter" has any bearing on your point? This game is no more a shooter, than it is hack'n'slash, than it is super powers, than it is battleship simulator, etc... And don't forget "shooting" also includes the old Bramma, Zarr, Orgis, etc..., but I have a feeling you don't condone those LoS bypassing heathen guns.
• And yes, the frame with no AoE is not affected by the horribly coded and designed AoE LoS checks in this game, who'da thought. (I also think you assume Saryn is some rare-ish exception to the LoS rule, when there's probably way more stuff that ignores LoS than you think.)

11 hours ago, nslay said:

We're not talking about

It was a dig at you, because it's painfully obvious the kind of player you likely are given your profile (and I don't check profiles often, but I have never seen a player with more than 50% usage rate on a single frame). I think because you hyper-fixate mainly on one playstyle, you're unable to really perceive how stuff like nuke builds work and their flaws, relative to the rest of the game. (I also think it's hypocritical given how much you use the Glaive, and how you just use a different type of OP in the form of Revenant instead.)

It's a very communist-esk POV, where you can be happy... but only if no one else is more happy than you. Thus you must nerf their fun until they're miserable enough to be on your level. "You can be a single-target player in a nuke game, but you can't be a nuke player in a single-target game." (And don't give me something like "nuke frames ruin your fun", 9 times out of 10 I can take something like a Inaros with a Vectis, Perigale, Dual Toxocyst, etc... and have plenty of fun in coop.)

Edited September 29, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• "Something left to shoot" is a massive hyperbole in the Steel Path. Only one frame (not Saryn) off the top of my head maaay kill *non-armored enemies fast enough, in a large enough AoE, for other players using single target weapons to struggle to really get kills.
• I also don't know why you think labeling this game as a "shooter" has any bearing on your point? This game is no more a shooter, than it is hack'n'slash, than it is super powers, than it is battleship simulator, etc... And don't forget "shooting" also includes the old Bramma, Zarr, Orgis, etc..., but I have a feeling you don't condone that LoS bypassing guns.
• And yes, the frame with no AoE is not affected by the horribly coded and designed AoE LoS checks in this game, who'da thought. (I also think you assume Saryn is some rare-ish exception to the LoS rule, when there's probably way more stuff that ignores LoS than you think.)

It was a dig at you, because it's painfully obvious the kind of player you likely are given your profile (and I don't check profiles often, but I have never seen a player with more than 50% usage rate on a single frame). I think because you hyper-fixate mainly on one playstyle, you're unable to really perceive how stuff like nuke builds work and their flaws, relative to the rest of the game. (I also think it's hypocritically given how much you use the Glaive, and how you just use a different type of OP in the form of Revenant instead.)

It's a very communist-esk POV, where you can be happy... but only if no one else is as happy as you. Thus you must nerf their fun until they're miserable enough to be on your level. "You can be a single-target player in a nuke game, but you can't be a nuke player in a single-target game."

I think it says more about you that you actually looked at my profile (and apparently take those %s at face value, to boot) so you could personally attack me because you couldn't come up with a good rebuttal. Classic stuff.

I've been hard on Gears over the years, but I've never stooped to your level.

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

I think it says more about you that you actually looked at my profile

Why? Is your profile something you're ashamed about? And it's public info, why would I not use it to bolster my argument?

2 hours ago, nslay said:

(and apparently take those %s at face value, to boot)

Besides the specter bug, profile usage precents have largely proven to be quite accurate. And it's not like I'm reaching here, your glyph is also Rev, I believe the frame you had equipped when I looked was Rev, and in the end you have something like over a 53% combined usage rate on him.

I understand however, profile usage rates can be dated at times, not reflecting what you use in modern day. But it's not hard to infer that the things I brought up are relevant within the last year or 2 at least.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

so you could personally attack me because you couldn't come up with a good rebuttal.

Not instead, but in addition. I provided many good rebuttals, and then further backed them by referencing my opinion on your own (likely) experience.

-------------------

 

Spoiler

I'll admit, I was being a bit of a jackass. But when I saw such a good opportunity for a low blow, I couldn't help myself. You just happened to be the last person with a contradictory viewpoint on the topic, and it rolled off the tongue so well.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

OP probably hasn't unlock Steel Path yet.