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Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework


[DE]Juice
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By the grace of the sea, am I disappointed! 

All those changes but none of Hydroid's main issues are addressed or set aside with a Wukong Fix.
Weird pattern on his 1? Not fixed. His corroding barrage is useless against corpus units? Not fixed. His 4's spawn? Yep, not fixed again. That's crazy.

And there were so many ways to fix him. How? Well, many people shared on the forum their views on a Hydroid rework.
Even this iteration can be ameliorated, but we're getting a half-done Hydroid... Again. 

His passive? Make the status effect from his abilities last 50% longer.

Tempest Barrage? Inflict Corrosive/Viral/Magnetic damage depending on the type of resistance the target has.
Corroding Barrage? Turns it into "Undertow," which creates areas that do half the damage but constantly. 

Tidal Surge? Recasting it costs nothing, stops the wave, and attracts enemies around Hydroid as a mini vortex (A fix like they did with Mag's 1) but keep the cleanse.

Tidal Impunity? No longer grants status immunity + range, but increases status chances (depending on the numbers of enemies) on Hydroid and Allies hit by the wave.

 

Plunder? Gives armor/health/shield depending on the enemies status (Viral-Health/Corrosive-Armor/Magnetic-Shield) but no longer increases the damages done.

Plunder's augment? Put on it the effect of Pilfering Swarm.

Tentacle swarms? Enemies in Hydroid's field of view or impacted by his Tempest Barrage are immobilized and disarmed, the effect is progressive (The immobilization/disarming only appears after 0,5s) and lasts 5 sec when not in Hydroid's FOV or affected by Tempest Barrage, with an energy drain.
Pilfering Swarm? It modifies Hydroid Tentacle Swarm, summoning instead a Kraken at the designated spot that will disarm every enemy near it. Hydroid can only summon three at a time.

 

Here! Some changes! And we can finally get rid of most randomness in his kit. 

 

 


 

Edited by Chimiasai
A point that was unclear
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I will admit to being sad that Undertow is disappearing.  It was a cool concept.  Though I understand that to truly make it work in this modern age of Warframe, Hydroid would basically have to become Grendel: a mobile pool that sucks in enemies and quickly dispatches of them.  And while cool, that would be a bit redundant.

I'm sure this Hydroid will be a big improvement, though, so I'm excited to see this new flavor of salt water!

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18 hours ago, Cluosion said:

As a long time hydroid fan since he was released, I liked the adjustments to his 1 and 2 but kinda wish his new 4th ripped apart enemies or did something more with the tentacles since its an ultimate.

The main issue I have with the rework is that undertow was super cool and a unique ability, sad to see it get reduced to a semi passive armor strip ability to help his global passive when so many other options of armor stripping exist. I would much rather him keep the undertow ability and you could even factor plunder into undertow as a background part of the ability, like it starts the process of plunder. Undertow could've been improved to make more people want to use it instead of deleting it, for example as a pirate hydroid should be about loot and offer more loot from enemies somehow like his 4th's augment, or do a bunch more damage since its a whole kraken fighting the enemies in the puddle. Another way to improve undertow is to allow it to be a puddle separate from hydroid that people can shoot into + its normal kraken damage.

I will definitely be sad to see undertow go, was a unique active ability that was replaced by an interesting but generic ability in comparison

yep, think the puddle could've been saved. I wish they would've continued pursuing it in testing. It could've been perfected. Hydroid did lose a unique part of his kit with that being removed. It is so important for frames to feel unique in this game otherwise it just gets bland. I'm sure the tentacles could've been used to pull enemies into the puddles and just let players shoot in the puddles too. Undertow now goes to the graveyard with OG Defy and World on Fire. still sad about that lol

 

Edited note: it is possible to salvage Undertow if DE just puts it on his roll mechanic kind of like limbo going into the rift. This could be just be a quick dip and a pop back up once the roll/dash distance is achieved and perhaps a small shockwave goes out a few meters to stun enemies for like 1 or 2 seconds. Probably a few ideas you could choose between for that undertow roll mechanic suggestion.

Edited by bangarang35
new suggestion #SaveUndertow
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hace 13 minutos, Chimiasai dijo:

By the grace of the sea, am I disappointed!

hace 10 minutos, bangarang35 dijo:

It is so important for frames to feel unique in this game otherwise it just gets bland.

hace 1 hora, (NSW)Yeyeg dijo:

Plunder seems kind of useless, would have liked something to help shield tank instead, but i might just be wrong

I will say this to settle the issue on my part. The warframe was changed to be a better warframe, not an easier warframe, when you try it you can say what you think, now you only speak with what you want and what you feel, not with true facts.

 

Cheese Grating GIF by Parmigiano Reggiano

Have a good rest of the day

Edited by CosoMalvadoNG
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3 minutes ago, Chimiasai said:

His corroding barrage is useless against corpus? Not fixed.

Use the Viral Augment instead? Also armored Robotic Corpus enemies exist.

 

With how creep happens, I would wish for DE to aim for the upper ends of Warframe efficacy bell curve (excluding top outliers), not just prop up a Warframe to be barebones barely at at the bottom end of the bell curve instead of dragging down the average by being nearly last place. I do feel like your attitude in your complaints/critiques are a bit disproportionate, especially given that this could be subject to additional tweaks, buffs, and changes with our feedback. I do think that they're probably aiming right for right down the middle here, giving him a gather ability and making his 4 non-griefy and potentially saving players a mod slot with the change to his 1.

SOME Warframe has to be the bottom of the barrel, relatively speaking, if he's above the bottom 10 with these tweaks I'm not sure how much more is really justified in demanding. I'd actually prefer them to nerf down some of the outliers in over-performing abilities so that they can tone down some of the enemy scaling, so that weapons and abilities are both reasonably consistently useable. You know, rather than make him the new everyone-picks-him-because-he's-the-easiest-or-best Warframe and adding more creep.

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1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I will say this to settle the issue on my part. The warframe was changed to be a better warframe, not an easier warframe, when you try it you can say what you think, now you only speak with what you want and what you feel, not with true facts.

Oh this hydroid is definitely better. he's b tier at least, no doubt. His new 3 is without a doubt far superior in terms of effectiveness. Nonetheless, losing undertow does remove a bit of his uniqueness. I just wish it could've been saved/upgraded. Rebecca didn't like that it was gone either. I wish the devs would consider finishing that testing exercise to perfect the puddle even if it got complicated. Otherwise, RIP undertow

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4 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I will say this to settle the issue on my part. The warframe was changed to be a better warframe, not an easier warframe, when you try it you can say what you think, now you only speak with what you want and what you feel, not with true facts.

 

Moot argument when people are given the read. Otherwise, what would be your point in answering comments on a topic that is yet to apply in game except than criticizing people for having feelings and opinions?

Temperance can be good, but people are entitled to their opinions and there are no "true facts" now.

 

7 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

SOME Warframe has to be the bottom of the barrel, relatively speaking, if he's above the bottom 10 with these tweaks I'm not sure how much more is really justified in demanding. I'd actually prefer them to nerf down some of the outliers in over-performing abilities so that they can tone down some of the enemy scaling, so that weapons and abilities are both reasonably consistently useable. You know, rather than make him the new everyone-picks-him-because-he's-the-easiest-or-best Warframe and adding more creep.

 

If those Warframes have to be at the bottom of the barrel for an arbitrary reason and remain as clunky because DE said so, DE should then change the price tag on those warframes to convey their status (since they're considered to be less enviable and bound to irrelevance) or their presence into the circuit less prevalent by following that logic of DE arbitrarily casting Warframes to the "bottom of the barrel" as you said.

 

A Warframe doesn't have to be a nuke or an all-rounder to be fun, on that we can all agree. But fixing Hydroid's clunkiness and his reliance on augment would be a step in the right direction for him.

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hace 1 minuto, Chimiasai dijo:

...

You take something you don't even know so personal, friend, that's my point. And you come to curse something you have no idea about just because you feel one way or another.

THE FACT HERE IS, THAT THE CHANGES OVERALL IMPROVE THE WARFRAME. BUT THEY DON'T GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT THAT'S WHY YOU COMMENT COMPLAINTS AND CRY.

 

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1 hour ago, Chimiasai said:

A Warframe doesn't have to be a nuke or an all-rounder to be fun, on that we can all agree. But fixing Hydroid's clunkiness and his reliance on augment would be a step in the right direction for him.

I thought Pablo said in the devstream they incorporated the old augments for his 1 and 2 into the base abilities now. If so, then he gets extra mods slots and becomes stronger by default. That's a step in the right direction. Did they say if the 2 gets a new augment? I just remember hearing the 1's augment now does viral and 3's augment will heal all allies in a certain range.

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3 minutes ago, bangarang35 said:

Oh this hydroid is definitely better. he's b tier at least, no doubt. His new 3 is without a doubt far superior in terms of effectiveness. Nonetheless, losing undertow does remove a bit of his uniqueness. I just wish it could've been saved/upgraded. Rebecca didn't like that it was gone either. I wish the devs would consider finishing that testing exercise to perfect the puddle even if it got complicated. Otherwise, RIP undertow

I like this Hydroid for the most part but as far as undertow goes, I think PickUpYourJelly (3rd post I believe) had a great Idea to incorporate undertow into Hydroids crouch. I think that's brilliant. 🤘   

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Im glad hydroid is getting a rework, but i feel like this is just making him more usefull without making him more enjoyable. I feel like his tentacles and cc were a huge part of his kit and the passive, although it was pretty useless, was at least a good idea. I think the update should have gone more in the direction of giving him more unique abilities rather than stripping his existing abilities down and giving him more passives. This seems like a lazy way to avoid having to create fun new abilities that are engaging, or at least reworking his existing abilities to make them more unique to his character and playstyle. There was so much opportunity with hydroid and it has been really missed here. His wave ability looks good but thats about it. The tentacles holding still just makes them seem lifeless, i dont mind seeing the puddle go, but replacing it with an exciting ability would have been alot better, or simply reworking it in a more creative way. His passive should have spawned tentacles on kill or on status effect or something, and the tentacles in general should just do more damage instead of only cc, or apply statuses or pretty much anything else, there are so mamy possibilities. I was looking forward to his rework but its disappointing. 

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

I like this Hydroid for the most part but as far as undertow goes, I think PickUpYourJelly (3rd post I believe) had a great Idea to incorporate undertow into Hydroids crouch. I think that's brilliant. 🤘   

Right, that was actually a good idea. I commented on his individual thread about that. Solid idea and adds back in a layer of uniqueness. What if it was like rolling guard where everytime he rolled he go underground for a few seconds thus being invulnerable and then would be forced back above ground a few seconds later. Could even cause like a 1 to 2 second stagger on enemies like a geyers eruption shockwave when he emerges. Could be interesting and that might not be too complicated from a coding perspective either.

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8 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

You take something you don't even know so personal, friend, that's my point. And you come to curse something you have no idea about just because you feel one way or another.

THE FACT HERE IS, THAT THE CHANGES OVERALL IMPROVE THE WARFRAME. BUT THEY DON'T GIVE YOU WHAT YOU WANT THAT'S WHY YOU COMMENT COMPLAINTS AND CRY.

 

Well, I'm cursing in character, do I have a right to be a Thespian or am I punished?

But honestly? It's not even what I want from Hydroid, but a bounce on the given changes. Unless I was able to predict Plunder's change... At this point, I'm multi-tasking... Am I?

 

And please, don't capitalize your sentences as makeshift emphasis, it's... Ugh.

 

 

6 minutes ago, bangarang35 said:

I thought Pablo said in the devstream they incorporated the old augments for his 1 and 2 into the base abilities now. If so, then he gets extra mods slots and becomes stronger by default. That's a step in the right direction. Did they say if the 2 gets a new augment? I just remember hearing the 1's augment now does viral and 3's augment will heal all allies in a certain range.

They did incorporate his 1's augment into the 1 but still gave an augment that's better since the 2 and 3 will armor strip just as well, creating a redundancy. As for the 2, they kept it, but they gave it the cleansing as a base (Though they may have reduced the efficiency bonus and the status immunity's duration)

And 3's augment is the same as Plunder's undertow in the sense it'll be his sole source of healing besides Arcanes/allies/health orbs/yada yada

Edited by Chimiasai
Ups
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I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback towards the new ability plunder, and as an avid Hydroid enjoyerTM I completely understand the sentiment at the removal of puddle but I am still excited to try out the new ability (and updated kit overall, the rest looks pretty fantastic to me). I see a lot of complaints that Hydroid is losing a unique aspect of his kit but I argue that the armor stealing is still a pretty fresh mechanic in that the only other frame that can do that currently is Vaubaun with Bastille and that has a far more limited use than what plunder seems to offer. Additionally the direction this rework is taking in making Hydroid a corrosive specialist adds to his overall identity/specialty as a frame and I think that's a welcome change after his loot crown was taken ages ago, if anything I think this rework succeeds in at least making him have a bit more of a niche than before. Of course I shouldn't include anecdotal experience into a critique but regarding my personal play-style plunder is going to fit absolutely perfectly into my current semi-tank umbral melee build I tend to run with Hydroid so I am very excited to try that. I want to withhold any kneejerk negativity regarding the new ability until I try it out myself I suppose, it seems to have a lot of utility and functionality that synergies with his updated kit in a good way but I can't know how it feels till I have hands on experience with modding around it.

Just to second what someone said in the thread earlier, Hydroid should ABSOLUTELY get the ability to go into puddle while crouched. The dev team today on stream all seemed a little disheartened to be getting rid of that iconic ability which I think is a shared feeling amongst the community right now, so including it somewhere in his kit would go a long way in making everyone feel better about the rework. I think if its restricted to crouching (and therefore not able to move) it is justified to remove the energy drain as well as invincibility and just make it like a form of invisibility - you can't be targeted or alert enemies to your presence but you still take splash damage from AoE attacks. If the crowd control aspect of the ability and the inability to shoot has to be lost for coding reasons so be it, but maybe add the a brief stun or corrosive proc when bullet jumping out of it (water in the enemies eyes maybe?). I'm not sure, there are a lot of creative things you can do but I agree that it would be a real shame to lose puddle completely. Otherwise, I think this will be a good rework!

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Not that I have a problem with people wanting to keep puddle, but did everyone *really* use Undertow that much? I usually replaced that one ahaha. I guess it would be fine if they cool if they kept it as a sort of tap/hold thing for his 2nd for the folks that want it! I don't see many people actually using that though. Perhaps I just have blinders on though.

Thanks for the rework! His passive change and Plunder look really cool!

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6 minutes ago, (XBOX)StickingtonMC said:

Not that I have a problem with people wanting to keep puddle, but did everyone *really* use Undertow that much? I usually replaced that one ahaha. I guess it would be fine if they cool if they kept it as a sort of tap/hold thing for his 2nd for the folks that want it! I don't see many people actually using that though.

Puddle does its job surprisingly well when you use it how its intended to be used especially when paired with the augment, but you're right in that it really isn't all that useful because it slows the game-play down to a literal crawl. A relic of the Warframe of old really. I think most people are upset because of the nostalgia, but I'd be lying if I said I won't miss it.

Excellent point about making a hold functionality for tidal surge though! If nothing else can be done to include undertow having that as an option would be an excellent compromise!

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1 hour ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

Just to second what someone said in the thread earlier, Hydroid should ABSOLUTELY get the ability to go into puddle while crouched. The dev team today on stream all seemed a little disheartened to be getting rid of that iconic ability which I think is a shared feeling amongst the community right now, so including it somewhere in his kit would go a long way in making everyone feel better about the rework.

exactly, the devs really should consider preserving the puddle in the kit somehow even if it's not a official ability. It could certainly be done via crouching or the roll mechanic that Jelly had mentioned earlier. Undertow is a part of warframe history now especially with all the memes and jokes. It does truly provide a unique visual mechanic that's just for Hydroid. Yes, it's a bad ability due to it being so slow moving, low dmg, and low range. Nonetheless, it's grown on the community, and I think the common sentiment is we want save puddle regardless of how much trash we talk about it. It can truly be implemented with the current design DE has displayed on the devstream. Roll mechanic or crouch mechanic are real options to pull this off. could last for a few seconds like rolling guard and then cause a very short stun. food for thought DE. #SaveUndertow lol

 

 

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I'm kind of disappointed by the removal of the speed scaling on tidal surge. 80+m/s waves was fun and losing them was one of the main things I was dreading the possibility of in this rework. Anyway, I have a few questions about these changes:

1) Will the area of tempest barrage finally scale off range? The fact that ability range scales the explosion sizes rather than the barrage area has been one of my biggest issues since I picked him up because it really limits the potential crowd control of the ability.

2) Is the damage buff of plunder a corrosive damage buff like Saryn's venom dose?

3) Will the tentacle count on tentacle swarm scale off range or is it going to remain how it is now? Currently, building range leaves large gaps between tentacles, which allow enemies to casually walk through it unaffected.

4) Since you removed the charging on the 1 and 4, is the energy cost always at maximum now? It's been nice to be able to partial charge for less energy when I don't need the full power of the charged form for the 1 and 4, since I often run minimal efficiency.

All in all, I'm not completely sure how I feel about this rework yet and will probably just have to wait until I get my hands on it to see how well it addresses his current clunkiness, but I'm hoping for the best (and maybe some of that tidal surge speed scaling back, eventually).

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It's a shame to see undertow go, it was a creative and unique ability but with plunder Hydroid just shakes some water off.
I do like the utility/use of plunder but why not just give undertow the ability to do what plunder does when pulling in the corrosive inflicted enemies?
I feel that Hydroid lost a quite a bit of his creative character by removing undertow.

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Undertow should be used for roll, crouch, slide, both melee slam attacks ending lag, and hard landing animations. That's my lone critic with the rework otherwise I think it is beautifully done so far. Uniquely for the melee slam's undertow, small tentacles should be seen to also reference the old passive. Basically, just add more "aesthetic flair".

Edited by otakuotaku
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Removing puddle from Hydroid is like removing merulina from Yareli, the most fun skill. Why not just combine with Tidal Surge using charge mechanic? Even if it become augment 100% will install it.
"It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill." - come on, nobody cares about teammate's fun, especially Saryn/Volt

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As others have said, keeping the puddle would be nice, though i do agree it focused on a more stationary gameplay, i feel like just keeping it as part of the 2 would be good enough for niche cases/memes/having something unique. The problem with tying it to parkour or crouching like some have said is that sometimes you'll just turn into a puddle while you're moving around.

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I have a few ideas to add that I think would be really cool here!

  1. Add Undertow's visual over the range of Hydroid's 4th ability. 
    • Make it 50% opacity of the original
    • This would help players get a visual for the actual AoE while giving the player a "feel" of area control. This also keeps the spirit of Undertow alive without any of its mechanics.
  2. I think it would be fun if Tentacle Swarm had a synergy where casting Plunder on tentacled enemies has a % chance to spawn a Kraken that eats up an AoE around the enemy (instakill, cannot be refreshed).
    • It wouldn't be reliable at all, but it would feed into that Kraken fantasy we still don't have.
    • If there aren't enough resources right now to make a Kraken model, then I think it can be replaced with Tentacles (that are holding an enemy) having a chance to pull the enemy into the depths (like Undertow) and kill them instantly (would not work on enemies resistant to CC). 
    • There would probably be a cooldown so it can't be overpowered. (Kraken's gotta take some time to digest all that meat/metal). 
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Dear God undertow was my favorite thing about hydroid and hearing it was replaced with wish version of pillage instead of tidal wave is incredibly disappointing. Hell don't even keep it as an ability, just let me roll to enter puddle I don't even need to be able to pull enemies in just need to go idle while I take a bite out of my dinner while i play.

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