Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[Frandan]

21 hours ago, (PSN)PickUpYourJelly said:

Instead of getting rid of puddle just included it in his movement when normal crouching like how Limbo can enter the Rift while dodging. Maybe have it open enemies to finishers when emerging.

Yea! I've just created a topic suggestion to not get rid of Undertow, your idea is better I think. I'd suggested Tap/Hold mechanic for his 4 where he spends more energy but becomes the puddle too. Give back status immunity only from his augment so it's not an excuse about survivability and let him puddle. 
Plus the Kraken up in the middle of the puddle when the ult is on would be awesome.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Frandan

[Leqesai]

Never going to happen... undertow was removed for a very specific reason. DE does not like enemy-denial abilities. Any current enemy denial abilities may be on the chopping block moving forward.

 

It would be nice if they'd just make a non-functional puddle at the crosshairs with the kraken graphic.

[Frandan]

Just now, Leqesai said:

Never going to happen... undertow was removed for a very specific reason. DE does not like enemy-denial abilities. Any current enemy denial abilities may be on the chopping block moving forward.

 

It would be nice if they'd just make a non-functional puddle at the crosshairs with the kraken graphic.

Put a cap like Grendel has, idk, I'm not getting into this excuse to be honest, but I clearly see its problem.

[MegalomaniacalMegalodon]

I love all the changes, been a puddle man forever.  Oh... I gotta find a new nickname!  OR!  Can I please hold onto hope for some kind of emote or idle animation that lets me turn into a harmless puddle?  No game play effects.  I honestly loved how goofy Hydroid always was, looks like the only thing that will be missing is the sort of goofball drunken pirate feel, instead for a now badass terror of the seas thing.  I like both.  But turning into a puddle and ragdolling everything with tentacles and barrages was hilariously fun, if entirely inefficient too.  If anything my friends will be enjoying this update more than me to him since I won't be messing them up as much when I start getting everything nice and wet.  I will definitely enjoy being more powerful with armor strip and being able to actually shoot enemies like I am not on a 6th bottle of rum, but I will miss that little silly part of the old identity.

Other things:
Goddamn it's going to be nice to have a real passive for once!  I can use whatever melee style I want! 
Always wanted some of the augments to just apply to his moves by default, thank you for the mod space!

[Leqesai]

9 minutes ago, Frandan said:

Put a cap like Grendel has, idk, I'm not getting into this excuse to be honest, but I clearly see its problem.

There is functionally no purpose to undertow if it is capped like Feast... Hydroid does not benefit from having enemies removed, unlike Grendel, so this is not a fair comparison. 

Also. I'm not sure what you mean by "excuse".
The devs said they don't like enemy denial abilities in the devstream. I don't really see how it is an excuse.

[Frandan]

16 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

There is functionally no purpose to undertow if it is capped like Feast... Hydroid does not benefit from having enemies removed, unlike Grendel, so this is not a fair comparison. 

Also. I'm not sure what you mean by "excuse".
The devs said they don't like enemy denial abilities in the devstream. I don't really see how it is an excuse.

True about capping Undertow, I'm just missing it already and trying to find ways to keep it. Maybe not cap itself but that thing to not count enemies in the puddle as a target like it happens with Grendel on Defense mission for example. If the problem is to lock teammates from killing enemies then we have a problem with nuke frames, not "denial state". If the problem is to turn enemies invisible but keeping them vulnerable to damage in the puddle (as it already happens), then the problem is teammates that doesn't know yet how the warframe (Hydroid in this case) works to adapt their gameplay, like it already happens with Limbo. There are more frames that restrict the gameplay in some ways like Frost bubble and probably more I can't think right now.

About "excuse", it's because there already exists "denial" mechanics in the game and I don't think they'll rework them too, such as Grendel and even Limbo. 
 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Frandan

[PsiWarp]

Without puddle, we're left with Tidal Surge's wave. But now, with Tidal Impunity's cost reduction, and enemies taking more and more Corrosive dmg + procs per second in the wave, and recast letting you carry everyone of them with you... functionally it is a hyper-speed puddle with strong grouping capability.

[Frandan]

1 minute ago, PsiWarp said:

Without puddle, we're left with Tidal Surge's wave. But now, with Tidal Impunity's cost reduction, and enemies taking more and more Corrosive dmg + procs per second in the wave, and recast letting you carry everyone of them with you... functionally it is a hyper-speed puddle with strong grouping capability.

But I want to become the puddle it's iconic 😭

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

it isn't. but sea water being very saline causes metal to corrode faster.

I've lived at the ocean (a couple times actually). Yes, metal corrodes near the sea - slowly over years. It is not in any way, shape, or form comparable to acid.

You don't dip some metal into the sea and it comes out full of holes, that's not how water works. You can swim in the stuff.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Leqesai]

20 minutes ago, Frandan said:

But I want to become the puddle it's iconic 😭

[(XBOX)Shodian]

11 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I've lived at the ocean (a couple times actually). Yes, metal corrodes near the sea - slowly over years. It is not in any way, shape, or form comparable to acid.

You don't dip some metal into the sea and it comes out full of holes, that's not how water works. You can swim in the stuff.

Good thing this is space magic water.

[shadaw]

As one of the few remaining hydroid players iam actually sad puddle got sacked. Even though mostly an afk group mechanic i prefered it more then the aoe statbomb we got as a replacement. It just seems boring

 

As an idea i had:

 

Add an extra passive similar to Limbo.

 

Anytime u dodgeroll or sneak hydroid turns into puddle. The speed limit would get removed

But jumping or dodging again would make u jump out

Nerf the size considerably.

Instead of sucking in enemies they get knocked onto the ground instead

Can only cast 4 to make it the centered version like pre rework

[shadaw]

As one of the few remaining hydroid players iam actually sad puddle got sacked. Even though mostly an afk group mechanic i prefered it more then the aoe statbomb we got as a replacement. It just seems boring

 

As an idea i had:

 

Add an extra passive similar to Limbo.

 

Anytime u dodgeroll or sneak hydroid turns into puddle. The speed limit would get removed

But jumping or dodging again would make u jump out

Nerf the size considerably.

Instead of sucking in enemies they get knocked onto the ground instead

Can only cast 4 to make it the centered version like pre rework

[Keyhound]

3 hours ago, Frandan said:

Please, make Hydroid's fourth ability a Tap/Hold mechanic, when hold he becomes the puddle while casting his ult, in other words, to hold 4 is to cast Tentacle Swarm AND Undertow at increased cost.
I wish that Undertow doesn't exist only in our hearts ❤️

Another suggestion is to keep the Kraken up in the middle of the puddle 🙃

Thank you for listening.

i would make it so the kraken goes into puddle and back instead. i said this before, but to me, what they should've done is do the hold/press mechanic, but have it be, press to summon the kraken:

in press "form" the kraken would use its tentacles to drag enemies inside its mouth(which i would change into  a giant toothed mouth sarlacc pit instead of puddle), and it would work like a vortex/larva, only weaker, and they would stop when above its gaping mouth, instead of getting dragged into the middle of the mouth.

in hold, it would make the kraken dive, dragging enemies under, but leaving their heads above water, which would also make them open to ground finishers.

 

it would be the best of both worlds. and not only allow for his kraken to feel unique(instead of the nezha spears or vauban's bastilleis is after the rework).

 

it would also make people mind's blown, seeing a ginormous mouth  filled with teeth take 10+ meters in the middle of a room, and holding enemies with its tentacles. it would become a spectacle. and offer another flavor of vortex, that also feels unique on its own.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Think you made two posts by mistake

[Protomorph]

I'm glad to see Hydroid finally get his overdue rework, sad to see Undertow removed instead of fixed. But we always knew D.E. would never fix Undertow. It would take some effort and programming to fix, and D.E isn't willing to do that for Undertow.

It was really disappointing to see how disingenuous some of the discussion around Hydroid was to justify putting in some bland, run-of-the-mill ability to replace Undertow instead of fixing it.

"Enemies won't walk into the puddle, so we had to get rid of it..." Hmm, I guess somehow D.E. FORGOT that the reason enemies don't walk into Undertow is because D.E. programmed them not to. When Hydroid came out enemies would walk into it with no problem. D.E. decided that Hydroid was too powerful, so the deliberately nerfed enemy A.I. to avoid walking into undertow. You know, the way they don't avoid things like Strangledome, or Thermal Sunder, or anything else in the game.

"Being stationary doesn't work with the game, so we had to remove it..." You mean like Strangledome? Which is functionally almost identical to Undertow, except that it's better, on a character who is stronger than Hydroid? And Khora can have TWO of them, while keeping the ability to move and use weapons? So we can expect Strangledome to be removed, right? After all, it doesn't "fit into the game."

"We tried having Hydroid cast the puddle, but that didn't work..." Really? It didn't work? Giving Hydroid one Strangledome instead of the two that Khora has somehow doesn't work? Because reasons? Because if you let Hydroid cast Undertow on the ground, what you have is a worse Strangeldome, that's limited to one cast instead of two.

Suffice it to say, the reasons for removing Undertow instead of fixing it don't hold water. D.E. just didn't want to do it, and since they didn't want to do it they weren't willing to put in the effort to do so. Undertow could have been kept, and fixed, if you're willing to spend a little effort on it. They weren't, and that's the whole story.

So, as far as the rework itself: it's debatable how good the Hydroid rework is, because Hydroid is now the most binary, one-note Warframe in the game.

Passive: Corrosive

Ability 1: Corrosive

Ability 2: Corrosive

Ability 3: Corrosive

Ability 4: Corrosive

Somewhere in there you can get some extra armor, and tentacles aren't flopping enemies around everywhere so that's better, but that's about it. From a design perspective, Hydroid should now be the A-#1 go-to frame for every mission where you fight Grineer and/or need to strip armor. If the rework is valid, every time any player needs to strip armor, Hydroid should be the first frame they reach for. IF the rework was successfull.

In practice, I don't think that's the case. I think Hildryn and other will still be better at it because not only are they easier to use, they're not one-note frames (like Hydroid is now), and they are better rounded and have depth, and multiple applications.

I mean, we have Ember, who is the fire frame, and Frost is the cold frame, and Volt is electricity, and now Hydroid is corrosive-frame, but those other frames have some utility and depth. Volt has shield, and speed. Frost has snow globe. The other elemental frames aren't just "proc status".

Grouping enemies is powerful and shouldn't be underrated, so maybe that's enough to save him. Tidal Surge enemies to group them up, cast tentacle swarm, strip armor, strip armor, and strip armor. All very binary. In the words of Baylan Skoll, "How inevitable..."

To sum it up, I'm peeved they removed Undertow instead of finally fixing it, and were disingenuous about it being necessary. We're left with what seems to be a limited, binary, one-note corrosion elemental frame, that appears to have less utility and agency than comparable elemental based frames like Volt & Frost. If Hydroid need more work, hopefully it won't take 5+ years. Again...

[shadaw]

il y a 40 minutes, Circle_of_Psi a dit :

Think you made two posts by mistake

i discovered that too,

but since warframe forums keeps translating my forums to French (a language i dont speak)

iam having difficulty removing it

[Lancars]

12 hours ago, (PSN)ApoX95 said:

quite the strong vocabulary for a useful rework of an outdated, classic warframe. 

I guess this is what somebody calls 'ungrateful'. keep some perspective and don't disrespect the devs who even make this wonderful game possible.

I chose the appropriate word for the logic behind this change. A very tactical ability is being removed for an ability you're just going to mash without a thought. As for being ungrateful I think after putting hours and hours into this game and even help contributing large amounts of currency to it i'm allowed one moment where i dislike something as i have put up with many things i dislike but this is where i put my foot down.

Don't act like warframe is a gracious gift from higher beings that i should accept it. I am not a dullard bovine that will just accept what's fed to them.

[shadaw]

Il y a 12 heures, RobWasHere a dit :

Plunder would have been fine if Undertow would have speed restriction removed and turned into Limbo-style roll possive.

This. 

 

And if they didnt like it clogging up and hiding enemies,

Make the puddle smaller, instead of absorbing enemies make them stagger or fall over.

maybe for a team benefit make it so enemies that walk over the puddle be able to enter puddle aswell

[Lancars]

25 minutes ago, shadaw said:

This. 

 

And if they didnt like it clogging up and hiding enemies,

Make the puddle smaller, instead of absorbing enemies make them stagger or fall over.

maybe for a team benefit make it so enemies that walk over the puddle be able to enter puddle aswell

coulda turned it into a hazard slip zone but we will be getting hurr durr homogenization.

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Plunder is a pirate-y term they used, but really it is a crowd Dehydration power that sucks in all the acidic seawater from nearby enemies to beef up Hydroid's defense, damage, and simultaneously makes said enemies permanently weaker depending on how wet they were.

Functionally I think it looks like a fine ability.

Aesthetics are a little disappointing though. From what they showed in the devstream it looks pretty boring, visually.

[Qriist]

lol

Edited September 29, 2023 by Qriist

[CrownOfShadows]

I knew there was going to be someone whining.

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I knew there was going to be someone whining.

[BETAOPTICS]

On 2023-09-28 at 6:37 PM, [DE]Juice said:

We look forward to seeing a wave of Hydroids drowning their enemies across the Origin System with the Abyss of Dagath Update on October 18th!

Don’t forget to check out the other Dev Workshops for the Abyss of Dagath Update!

Looking good. Please add the information about the last abilities augment and also add a note for those who missed it that Tentacle Swarm does Corrosive damage now instead of Magnetic like it used to.