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Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework


[DE]Juice
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I can't wait to try this out! but I still think tentacle swarm is under whelming. other than the damage type and the theme its literally identical to Nezhas Divine spears or Rhino's stomp. press 4 to lift enemies in the air. adding a secondary effect besides corrosive would make it more interesting. for example, Enemies in the killed inside the grasp of the tenacles will have 40% increased energy orb drop chance and will pass any corrosive status effects they died with to nearby enemies. almost like they are passing scurvy to one another like a real pirate!

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Really not a fan of the removal of undertow, I considered it an core part of Hydroid's identity.

Sure, Hydroid will absolutely be better with this update, but a core part of what made him who he was has been replaced. I was always interested in Hydroid BECAUSE of undertow. I'll wait and see if maybe I like Plunder, but I would honestly have preferred to lose tidal surge and see undertow be brought up to par.

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My partner literally just messaged me, after I had skipped this rework:
 

Quote

Warframe is officially dead. I am incensed.
They're removing Hydroid's puddle.
Hydroid is good now, but at what cost?

Characteristic aproportionality aside, it is disappointing to see the puddle go. I do hope it can be incorporated in some other way if the ability has to be replaced

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9 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Undertow:

  • This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder.
    • Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
      • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
      • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Undertow was one of the most unique and fun abilities... replacing it for just yet another cut and paste armor reduction ability is a crying shame!!! I can't even begin to explain how much fun I had creeping around pulling enemies into the puddle. All this ability really needed was a the ability to lunge around i.e. having roll shift the puddle around instead of taking you out of puddle or better synergy with tidal surge. Replacing this unique ability just feels like a lazy move. #rippuddle 😪

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1. Undertow actually felt unique. I would've preferred a buff and increased movement speed, or have it rolled into Tidal surge as a hold. Hold for puddle, tap for surge. Swallowing enemies in a corrosive pool that eats their armor sounds so cool. Shooting out tentacles to grab enemies also kept it active. The synergy of casting from puddle was also a nice defensive move that didn't rely on simple damage reduction.  The idea that it was taking away enemies from other players doesn't hold water when Grendel does the same thing and other frames can just nuke everything anyway. 

2. Tentacles staying still looks boring. All they needed to do was allow us to damage enemies by shooting at tentacle, then it wouldn't matter if the enemy was being flung around, and it would still look cool. Make it so shooting a tentacle damages the enemy and adds corrosive damage. Having the tentacles hold still makes it look like a reskin for divine spears.

 

still like the rework though. Some great changes overall. Just wish we could've kept some of the uniqueness to his identity.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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4 hours ago, Venmere said:

It's a shame to see undertow go, it was a creative and unique ability but with plunder Hydroid just shakes some water off.
I do like the utility/use of plunder but why not just give undertow the ability to do what plunder does when pulling in the corrosive inflicted enemies?
I feel that Hydroid lost a quite a bit of his creative character by removing undertow.

Exactly! removing underto tears away a part of Hydroid. No need to get rid of it. Just put it on the wide open spot for the crouch or roll mechanic. I'm more inclined for the roll myself. He can roll in whatever direction as the puddle for a quick second and be invulnerable. It'd be pretty fun and visually appealing for players.

 

4 hours ago, otakuotaku said:

Undertow should be used for roll, crouch, slide, both melee slam attacks ending lag, and hard landing animations. That's my lone critic with the rework otherwise I think it is beautifully done so far. Uniquely for the melee slam's undertow, small tentacles should be seen to also reference the old passive. Basically, just add more "aesthetic flair".

yep, many options for it besides having to be 1 of the 4 abilities.

 

4 hours ago, Northern_Stalker said:

Removing puddle from Hydroid is like removing merulina from Yareli, the most fun skill. Why not just combine with Tidal Surge using charge mechanic? Even if it become augment 100% will install it.

Agreed, he will lose a core part of his character. 😭 lol I initially suggested combining undertow with the current 2 or 4. At this stage of the design process, it might be easiest and best for Hydroid to make it just part of the roll/crouch since it's wide open.

 

3 hours ago, 1manApocalypse said:

As others have said, keeping the puddle would be nice, though i do agree it focused on a more stationary gameplay, i feel like just keeping it as part of the 2 would be good enough for niche cases/memes/having something unique. The problem with tying it to parkour or crouching like some have said is that sometimes you'll just turn into a puddle while you're moving around.

Right that's actually the goal to turn into the puddle while moving. This would no longer be about stationary gameplay. Ever play killer instinct? Look up the character Glacius. He has an ability that lets him turn into a puddle travel and travel a very short distance, and then he uppercuts the enemy. That's very beneficial in Warframe since it's like half a second or so of invulnerability for Hydroid. If he had maybe a 1 second stun that was 3 meters with a circle AOE then that'd be very effective for the Pirate and make him quite fun. Real potential with this idea.

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I feel like we could keep the puddle if it was made into a more active and mobile ability. Possibly also make it a held variant of his 2.
Increased speed, and enemies get dragged along instead of being dumped out once you leave their original location.

If it was somehow possible to look in the puddle and see enemies floating around in it for us to shoot, that could help as well.

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Nooo they hit the puddle! They hit the hecking puddle! Guess hydroid doesn't drown people anymore.
Honestly, I think they should have replaced Tempest Barrage with Puddle. Tempest barrage is essentially his 4 in that it hits a lot of enemies.
Wish you could have set puddles on the ground for one reason or another. 

Edited by Tellmeninetails
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Am I missing something? Hydroid's new 3 has details that seems redundant.

  • Passive: dealing *any* damage to an enemy buffs the first Corrosive status, so armour can be completely removed. "Lasts until their deaths."
  • Plunder: completely remove armour based on corrosive status. (+ armour, + bonus corr damage).

The best explanation I can get is that the passive's bonus is permanent, but only works while status affects are applied. Plunder's effect relies on status when it's initially applied, but armour stays removed after the status effects expire.

But Warframe is a very fast game, and it would be very rare for an enemy to live longer than your statuses do. Most of the time there will be no difference between the two. So if Plunder requires status to even do anything, what does it add? What different does it make? You're mostly choosing it to 'damage' many enemies simultaneously for a 'faster passive'.

If that's the case, the only instance I can think of where such a distinction is relevant would be on special enemies that have status resistances and cannot reach 10 stacks otherwise. However these enemies also typically have CC immunity. Will Plunder still remove armour from these enemies, or are they immune to it too?

Edited by Snackrat
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man Undertow carried me farming toroids solo back then, its so underused that people forgot allies can shoot into the puddle to hit enemies inside, and it has slight hp scaling with enemies sunken into and prior to corrosive nerf corroding barrage augment can help reduce armors. gonna miss the puddle.

I was partially angry about undertow as the old rework tried to justify being able to pull enemies (manually) and hp scaling damage by HALVING its radius, which in turn caused the whole underwhelming experience from what it already was.

Edited by Xsoskeleton
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All the puddle talk has gotten me conflicted now. On the one hand, it definitely sucked mechanically and needed significant improvements or a straight up replacement, the latter being the official route. On the other hand, I do see how the puddle was an endearing part of Hydroid's kit with its own fun factor. Maybe something could be done to bring it back in spirit while also improving it so it isn't mechanically weak.

For example, Undertow could be integrated into Tidal Surge as a Press/Hold cast feature. While as a puddle Hydroid should be able to move around at standard walking speed. The tentacle tether feature would still be usable, but submerging enemies innately would not. Since LMB is the tether, then RMB could raise a Hydroid-ified tentacle in an aim state that you can then use to fling individual barrages with LMB, scaled purely off strength or strength and primary/secondary weapon mods, that way it isn't such a passive ability state anymore. Heck, maybe tethering, damaging  and/or getting the puddle underneath an enemy could open up said enemy to a unique finisher, either normal or Parazon, where Hydroid swirls up from the water, grabs the enemy and plunges them into the puddle. Maybe Undertow could move even faster in areas under the effect of Tempest Barrage or Tentacle Swarm.

Aside from that, I am loving the direction of this rework. His 1 and 4 having full charge values at a single press, his 2 no longer flinging, his 3 giving survivability and a different way to strip armor and buff, and his 4 being so efficient now and very visually pleasing, all are great changes. Tentacle Swarm in particular could benefit from either a baseline or, more likely, as an augment buff where enemies held by tentacles could share dealt weapon damage between other tentacles holding enemies, like Zephyr's Tornadoes do to all enemies within the tornado when it is shot. That'd definitely give his tentacles a lot more damage utility beyond Corrosive proccing and CC. Can't wait for the update!

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3 hours ago, Northern_Stalker said:

Removing puddle from Hydroid is like removing merulina from Yareli, the most fun skill. Why not just combine with Tidal Surge using charge mechanic? Even if it become augment 100% will install it.
"It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill." - come on, nobody cares about teammate's fun, especially Saryn/Volt

It was the least fun skill for me. I do think it would have been great to be reworked into another ability though, albeit with some considerable changes to how it works. 

That's why this change is something I support (And why I would support changes to saryn and other frames), people don't care about my fun with what they choose, so it probably shouldn't actively take my fun away from me. And shooting a puddle just isn't fun for me.

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Additional thought.

Corrosive deals reduced damage against flesh. The old Corrosive Projection team loadouts wanted to remove as close to 99% of armour as possible, so Corrosive still did 175% damage, but without mitigation. Hydroid's damage quickly becomes less effective on most enemies he's fighting, as he removes armour from them and their flesh has Corrosive resistance. (This also affects any teammates using Corrosive damage/builds.)

I doubt it matters in most cases, since armour mitigation is so impactful he'll still kill enemies faster after doing so on most content. But it might be more meaningful at higher levels, where EHP without armour is still very high. The effect is already noticeable when removing armour on Void Angels. What considerations are being made for this? Do other players think it needs any?

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41 minutes ago, Xsoskeleton said:

Well there is also the choice of not using the frame.

I can't (and shouldn't be able to) dictate what warframes other people choose, so when their warframe is directly taking my fun away I can't actually do anything to change that, it's not actually my choice. So, the healthy option in my opinion is to ensure that warframes aren't actively taking so much fun away from others, so that your choices aren't impacting OTHER people. 

It's also a genuinely terrible solution if I actually want to use the frame for every other ability it has. I want to use hydroid, that's part of the problem. 

Edited by NecroPed
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11 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

All enemies in range will have Corrosive Status Effects remove their armor permanently, increasing Hydroid’s armor and granting bonus Corrosive damage to weapons.

What's the point of gaining corrosive damage when armor is removed entirely? 🤔

I know there are other other susceptible health types but still.

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6 hours ago, bangarang35 said:

The frequency of increased loot drops for other loot frames like Khora and Nekros is so much higher than Hydroid still. His augment need to be tweaked in a way that can increase his loot drop frequency to be competitive as a loot frame.

I think Hydroid's augement's extra loot drop chance is 100% while Nekros and Khora's is somewhere in the 40s and 50s?

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And they still managed to not fix the biggest issue with hydroid's ult, that tentacles spawn once and just spend the entire duration doing nothing, Can you please make it so that if a tentacle hasn't cached an enemy for say 3 to 5s it submerges and reemerges again in somewhere enemies actually are?

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 Recasting his Surge ends the dash into a short-duration Undertow form, giving him invulnerability and releasing enemies on top of his pool. It no longer drowns enemies, but he can move with increased movement speed and applies corrosive procs each second to enemies standing on his pool/him. Jump to cancel Tidal Surge and Undertow. Hold-cast to use Undertow without using Tidal Surge.

 That seems better than just having one option. This solves the enemy denial and the stationary gameplay. Honestly, Undertow being removed is really, really lame. 

 

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[DE]communityteam, i know youre reading this because as of right now there are only 144 replies, which i think is relatively manageable to get through in a day, and i know you value community feedback based on a long history of making changes with that feedback in mind. (this is coming back after edit 2) i apologize in advance for a perhaps too long post, but i hope its worth reading and i hope it gives you some insight to the community's thoughts on the rework and some extra. now i dont intend to speak for the community as a whole but i do think at least more than a few others probably feel the same way as me. table of contents is: everything up till edit 1 is what i originally thought about the changes, edit 1 is suggestions i saw most among the other replies here, and edit 2 is my thoughts (and probably other's too) on the context of the rework in the state of the game right now. fellow commenters, if you agree, pls dont let this get buried rip (and if you dont then uhhh, just :) ignore everything!) 

someone already said it but i think adding a tap/hold mechanic to his 2 is a great idea, holding to enter puddle and tapping to move around. with the changes to tidal surge actually dragging enemies it could make it a really good cc, grouping, and survivability ability. since you cant attack while in the puddle, it would incentivize more mobile gameplay than in live by having you go in and out for repositioning and such. like maybe you enter puddle and dash around grabbing enemies and then pop out, cast your 1 and 4 for the rest of the armor strip and nuke with buffed weapons. either that or set up a 1+4 area, go out and grab enemies, and come back to dumping them in your zone could be cool 

even though it seems like it could be op control for just 2(3) abilities, it semi-keeps his more stationary play style by limiting him to an area without making you afk in your puddle. its not like youd be going from tile to tile nuking an entire room in 2 seconds (we already have plenty of those frames) and it defines him more as a cc frame, which is what i feel like he was intended as 

my biggest question/concern with this rework though is about plunder. it says it it removes armor from enemies with corrosive stacks permanently? but if the stacks already remove armor then whats the point. in addition the buffs it gives dont seem all that relevant. first, an armor buff for a cc frame is counterintuitive, i doubt anyones gonna build a health tank hydroid; while the damage bonus is nice, it isnt the best thing in the world cause enemies are already stripped and corrosive damage doesnt have increased damage against flesh health types. but that last thing being added corrosive damage is thematic so its probably fine (biiig maybe). really the problem is an armor buff for a patch thats heavily pushing shields makes very little sense 

if anything should be taken away from the posts on here though it should be people seem to like undertow, theyre just unhappy with its mechanics rn. if anything should be taken away from my post it should be plunder doesnt look like it synergizes with the rest of the changes or his kit 

edit: reading some of the other more recent posts i feel like i need to be a little harsher and edit and compile some of the ideas going around lol. you need to keep undertow, its what makes hydroid hydroid. someone else also said if tentacle swarm applies corrosive then theres no point in his 1 which is very true. i think there was a suggestion of multiple status spreading such as viral, mag, rad, etc. “like scurvy” was i think the phrase used. i agree that the tentacles definitely look like a divine spears reskin, they need the movement but treating them like zephyrs tornadoes where you can shoot into them to damage enemies was also a great idea. there was a mention of the tentacles diving back down and reappearing at a new enemy location when they stepped into the zone. and i stand firmly behind my points that plunder is extremely bad, its for sure just a copy paste DR ability without thought of synergy or class identity. 

edit 2: its also worth considering that its all the actual hydroid players on here are asking to keep undertow in some way. we are gonna have 53 other warframes for people to main in this coming update. i really dont think you should take hydroid away from his player base by turning him into a copy paste of like 10 other frames just to appease people who still wont use him. doing so is not gonna help player retention for both of those reasons. not everyone can be happy with the rework, but if anyone should be happy it should be the dedicated hydroid players. like i said, at 54 total playable classes IT IS OKAY to start making more niche things or things considered to be "unoptimal" by the arbirtary standard the meta has set, if not for fun than for the simple sake of variety. we already have like 10 nuke frames, 10 armor strip/buffer/debuff, 10 weapons platforms, 10 with roughly a single cast 1 movement 2 some kind of DR 3 and a hard cc 4 (like come on we can all see it youre not sneaky w/ it), or SOME kind of combination (of like 2 max). How many pirates do we have that can turn into a puddle? Hopefully not 0 come october. When we look at the roster it should not be that easy to group frames into just a couple categories, but if players do want to play that way, they already have a plethora of options. I get trying to update or release frames that can keep up with the (still) growing aoe run and gun meta, but IT IS OKAY if a frame doesnt reach 100 kpm if it means it has a super active, though maybe smaller subreddit. after all, from what i can tell and from what i think the general sentiment is, is, thats the kind of game this is and thats the kind of social environment warframe is based upon. because the game has grown so large, a melding of these smaller communities really doesnt foster the formation of lasting friendships and connections, and creates this feeling of isolation that leads to the lack of use of squad, clan, and alliance chat, excessive use of random queuing and immediately disbanding group, and a disproportionate focus on ones own account instead of helping newer players. Maybe ive just had bad luck with every single squad ive ever been in and all the clans ive joined have dead discord servers, but i dont think this is an overreaction, and i dont intend it to be doomposting (sorry if im completely off base for most people but that has generally been my recent ~3 years experience with the game). i do admit that this is a LOT to say and a very large leap over a simple rework and the removal of puddle, but my point is that this isnt a new issue and a though this rework obviously isnt the sole cause, its certainly not going to help. de i IMPLORE you reconsider the direction youre taking with this rework in the context of what ive said and in the context of specifically hydroid players who love him for either the memes or the aesthetic or for any other reason, and ask yourselves: is it worth it to take away that uniqueness, class identity, community and connection, and memes just to cater to a larger player percentage when there are already so so many other options for those people? 

okay thats all i had to say, sorry this was so long winded but thanks for coming to my ted talk 

Edited by MistaDrew2
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