Caliban question

[DrBorris]

It is a self fulfilling meme. I think even the biggest Caliban stans can agree he is pretty mid. So when someone comes up and says "lol, this frame is trash," responding with "he's not that bad, he has xyz," all the first person hears is "he's not that bad." Then the cycle continues and spreads. This is despite many, many frames not having a 'use' when using the criteria "does another frame do it better". 

 

Personally I like him quite a bit. His 4 is simple, but the gameplay loop it creates is actually pretty unique despite being so simple. Having to pick your engagement areas before you get to them is just enough of a variation of the core gameplay to feel unique but is also close enough to the core gameplay that you can let auto-pilot take the reigns a bit. Then between the CC of his 2, the shield regen of his buddies, and the little bit of aggro your buddies pull, he can survive well enough to execute in that combat space.

Caliban is my comfort food Warframe, when I want something simple but don't want to be a basic weapon platform.  It is frustrating seeing people hate on Caliban, it is also frustrating to see rework concepts ignore the unique parts of his gameplay and go all in on being a summoner (the anti-gameplay archetype).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some tweaks or a rework, his 1 especially is fundamentally a terrible idea for an ability, but understanding Caliban takes an ounce of nuance that most won't give to something they consider a meme. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by DrBorris

[(PSN)rexis12]

Also, if you want to keep Caliban mostly to hsi 'intended design' subsume Aqua Blade over his one.

It's literally Razor Gyre but better.

[Leqesai]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I think before the shards, it was clunkier due to animation speed. 

After some Natural Talent shards and some range with Ensnare he's a Top Tier frame.

Exactly.

I personally don't use ensnare but once kitted out with shards to get his 4 to 100% strip while using overextended he is quite good.

 

The hate on him from multiple people in this thread is exactly what boggles my mind. He is better than a fair number of frames yet multiple people in this thread describe his kit as low bar. 

 

I understand the difficulty of acquisition being a point of frustration but it isn't like he's as hard to get as Grendel... 
Just seems crazy to me. People go ga-ga over armor strip abilities but Caliban's 4 is just dismissed straight up. It is quite easily one of the better defense strip options in the game yet people talk about it as though it sucked bigtime. I mean... sure there are options but you don't have to rely on helminth for your defense strip when he has a perfectly viable option right there in his kit. This frees him up for Nourish, Gloom, Aquablades etc. with a very obvious dump-choice in his kid (his 1). 

But that's okay. I get that not every frame suits every player. I just think its weird people are so strongly set against him....

I mean... I've played for around 8 years at this point and I don't think I have a "this frame sucks" opinion about a single frame. Heck, even Hydroid I enjoy from time to time. I think a lot of players mistake "I don't like this" for "this thing sucks". 

[Aruquae]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

So hating on Caliban is basically a meme at this point; but I wonder why?

Aesthetically he looks pretty cool.

His passive isn't terrible

His 1 sucks for sure, but his 2, 3 and 4 are all quite good. 

 

I just don't get it... full shield+armor strip with a set-it and forget-it denial ability is really useful. The shield generation from his 3 is very useful (and going to be even better with the Dagath update), and his 2 is really solid CC. 

I'm not saying he is the best frame, but he definitely isn't a bad frame. Am I missing something here? Is the hate on him justified? Personally I don't think it is.

I personally don’t like him because of how he’s a summoner 

His abilities are good IN CONCEPT, but they are poorly executed

His one is basically Revenant’s fourth, but without the disco fingers. WHERE’S THE DISCO FINGERS

His two makes enemies take amplified damage with CC, but they just keep floating away. They don’t just hover in place, they just float aimlessly. Not that annoying with a small amount of range, but with overextended or something like that, you can lose track of them. 
His three is my favorite ability, but it’s just SOOO EXPENSIVE. Positive efficiency is kind of needed with his small energy pool. Three conculysts? Amazing! You have to summon every single one of them… oh. 
I don’t remember his fourth, I found it quite good except for the fact that the armor strip didn’t seem permanent (need clarification). And his passive? Quite good ngl, except for the fact that it has so much limitations. Why does it not stack with adaptation? BARUUK EXISTS. More damage reduction is fine, and makes sense for the adaptable sentient warframe. 
He really just needs a few tweaks: his passive shouldn’t have as much limitations as it does, his first ability should be more than helminth option, his second ability should make enemies actually count as lifted, and stay in place (much like Yareli’s one). His third… ngl I think it’s fine (for now) I’d say a press and hold to summon all three, for the price of three? No comment on his fourth

All in all he has great potential, but DE never payed much attention to him.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, Malikili said:

All in all he has great potential, but DE never payed much attention to him.

I feel like this is probably the most competent at-issue presented in the thread thus far. I'm not quite sure why DE just dumped Caliban into the game without much adjustment. There are some rough edges for sure. I suppose there just aren't enough people playing/purchasing him to warrant any kind of alterations.

 

Hopefully he'll get a decent augment or two in the future. A decent augment will heavily sway public opinion, I wager.

[Aruquae]

2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I feel like this is probably the most competent at-issue presented in the thread thus far. I'm not quite sure why DE just dumped Caliban into the game without much adjustment. There are some rough edges for sure. I suppose there just aren't enough people playing/purchasing him to warrant any kind of alterations.

 

Hopefully he'll get a decent augment or two in the future. A decent augment will heavily sway public opinion, I wager.

I would enjoy an augment. It’s been far too long. As long as it’s an augment that can actually change his play style, or at least alter it in a way that isn’t just a “band-aid” (I’m looking at you energy transfer) I’m down for it.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

10 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Is the hate on him justified? Personally I don't think it is.

I think his main problem is that everything he can do, another frame can do better, and it doesn't help that the update he came with was supposed to be the biggest update ever, but ended up being somewhat of a let-down.  plus his kit is all over the place, he's a summoner/debuffer/CC frame, but again, other frames do it better. if he just had the pablo treatment like Hydroid just got he'd be totally fine, perhaps even end up being a genuinely likable frame by most. 

the question is how* DE would rework him: they could just buff and add scaling to his current powers, but me personally, I would like a kit that leans way more into his Sentient side, maybe with a little Narmer/Archon influence.:

- passive: Caliban's base Adaptation is buffed, and gains an additional increase based on how many enemies are within affinity range: if Caliban is surrounded, he becomes pretty tanky as a result..

- Razorlight: replacement for Razor Gyre; Caliban emits a version of a Battalyst strobe laser that deals Heat, Electric and Toxin damage at random and covers a wide area. shooting the globe at the center increases the laser's damage, so players are encouraged to keep an eye on it, rather than set-and-forget.

- Sentient Wrath: can more or less stay as it is but with an additional benefit: if Caliban has adapted to a damage type, casting this ability sends out a seeking projectile to enemies that are affected and deals that damage type back to them: e.g. if Caliban has been struck by Heat damage, he can cast 2 and deal a large amoutn of heat damage to a trapped enemy. essentially, he becomes a damage reflector, who's power increases the more enemies try to kill him.

- Lethal Progeny: instead of just Conculysts, Caliban now summons 4 different increasingly powerful Sentients: the first is a Vomvalyst who continuously charges Caliban's shields, and is active for as long as Lethal Progeny is active. in addition, a Conculyst is summoned who will be more aggressive and attack enemies in melee. the second cast summons a Battalyst who provides support fire with its cannons and occasionally summons its lasers, the third and final Sentient is a Symbilist, who acts as a bodyguard for Caliban, using its shield to protect him and its laser to decimate the enemy. another idea (perhaps as an augment?) would be to summon mini Archon Specters which would obviously have less health but would be able to perform some of their stronger attacks. a downside could be an increased energy cost to keep it balanced.

- Fusion Strike: now a continuous laser that drains energy over time; deals constant damage ticks and strips armor with each tick as well. again, Caliban can use adaptation to apply any received damage types to the laser, increasing it's lethality even further.

the end result is intended to be a powerful assault frame that benefits from being in the thick of battle and uses Sentient adaptation as tool to reflect damage against enemies, while also allowing him to more effectively scale at higher levels. he still maintains most of his original kit, but now benefits from multiple levels of protection and can both give and take damage with ease. playing as him should feel like you are the ultimate Sentient specimen!.

 

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Malikili said:

His two makes enemies take amplified damage with CC, but they just keep floating away. They don’t just hover in place, they just float aimlessly. Not that annoying with a small amount of range, but with overextended or something like that, you can lose track of them. 

Even with small range, his 2 by itself will sometimes throw targets across the room.  And other effects while they're lifted can sometimes do this.  Unfortunately his summons do it a fair bit.

4 hours ago, Malikili said:

I don’t remember his fourth, I found it quite good except for the fact that the armor strip didn’t seem permanent (need clarification)

It is permanent.  Although sometimes it won't affect targets it should, which might be what you're remembering.

4 hours ago, Malikili said:

his second ability should make enemies actually count as lifted

It works with the Saxum bonus, so I think it does count.

4 hours ago, Malikili said:

His third… ngl I think it’s fine (for now) I’d say a press and hold to summon all three, for the price of three?

This gets suggested a lot.   Without some other changes, I think a simultaneous cast is a bad idea for it, as it means that all 3 also expire at the same time.   At which point he's extremely vulnerable until they're recast since he won't have their aggro draw or shield restore.  (Which is a lot of why staggering his casts over Progeny's duration works much better than casting them one after the other now.)

But add the simul-cast and allow Progeny  to be recast at will and that addresses most of that issue.  There still might be a moment of vulnerability, but the player would have full control over when that happens.

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, Veridian said:

The other issue is stats. Most frames benefit in a way from every stat, but don't actively require more than 2 for a specific build.
He actively needs efficiency because his style requires a lot of casting, at least 200% strength, duration so all 3 of his abilities can last longer and while not particularly needing range it's still nice to have a higher range for 2 and 4, all of this adds to even his best ability always feeling somewhat lacking.

Yeah, I think +range is pretty important on him too.  To me he's one of those frames that needs some of everything--including Casting Speed, oh my--so yeah, not very flexible.  He probably frustrates the absolute hell out of people who don't have lots of shards to spare.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of augment he gets, as it might be a very difficult trade-off.

[TARINunit9]

15 hours ago, Leqesai said:

but his 2, 3 and 4 are all quite good. 

His 3 and 4 are not worth the cost

Lethal Progeny is more expensive than Shadows of the Dead while giving fewer summons that don't have Eximus bonuses. And no, the fact they're Sentients really doesn't matter after all the nerfs Sentients have been slapped with, Sentients suck now

And Fusion Strike is... It's more of the same "eh" mood. I mean if it was 50 energy (and was his 3 instead of his 4) it would be fine, shoot off some lasers that laser things. But as a 100 energy ult it is just not putting out the oomph we paid for

[(PSN)rexis12]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, I think +range is pretty important on him too.  To me he's one of those frames that needs some of everything--including Casting Speed, oh my--so yeah, not very flexible.  He probably frustrates the absolute hell out of people who don't have lots of shards to spare.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of augment he gets, as it might be a very difficult trade-off.

I think the most annoying thing is that each ability needs each stat.

Like you wouldn't need to really care for Duration for his 2 and 4, if you kill fast enough but that guts his 3 which is his main survivability sans CC. Subsequently his 3 doesn't really care much for range or strength, but if there's too little range and strength than his 4 and 3 ends up worthless, and his 3 and 4, or at least his 4 if you don't care for Damage Vulnerability, is integral to Caliban's gameplay loop.

Then not to mention how every ability needs efficiency. It's like Sevagoth all over again!

It's the kind of inflexibility that oddly enough makes him a really weak Jack of All Trades. Because fellow Jacks like Yarelli and Wukong are able to dumpster certain stats for different Playstyles. While Caliban is pretty much fixed, or at least design wise optimised, into one.

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

And no, the fact they're Sentients really doesn't matter after all the nerfs Sentients have been slapped with, Sentients suck now

Funny enough in pretty sure none of the nerfs mena anything because we only get Conculysts.

 

So we don't even get like the super strong Omni laser attack, just the dumb spin move.

[Tiltskillet]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I think the most annoying thing is that each ability needs each stat.

Like you wouldn't need to really care for Duration for his 2 and 4, if you kill fast enough but that guts his 3 which is his main survivability sans CC. Subsequently his 3 doesn't really care much for range or strength, but if there's too little range and strength than his 4 and 3 ends up worthless, and his 3 and 4, or at least his 4 if you don't care for Damage Vulnerability, is integral to Caliban's gameplay loop.

I've been playing with keeping Duration neutral or a little negative.  It does hurt in some ways, but because of the way his Progeny work, it's kind of helpful to have him spamming more.   But this is from the POV of having the luxury of having OP weapons, a stupidly powerful Nourish injected and a couple of casting speed shards.  Lack of duration would hurt a lot more if any of those things were missing.

 

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

55 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

I think the most annoying thing is that each ability needs each stat.

Like you wouldn't need to really care for Duration for his 2 and 4, if you kill fast enough but that guts his 3 which is his main survivability sans CC. Subsequently his 3 doesn't really care much for range or strength, but if there's too little range and strength than his 4 and 3 ends up worthless, and his 3 and 4, or at least his 4 if you don't care for Damage Vulnerability, is integral to Caliban's gameplay loop.

Then not to mention how every ability needs efficiency. It's like Sevagoth all over again!

It's the kind of inflexibility that oddly enough makes him a really weak Jack of All Trades. Because fellow Jacks like Yarelli and Wukong are able to dumpster certain stats for different Playstyles. While Caliban is pretty much fixed, or at least design wise optimised, into one.

I think this is why I don't play him so much. 

He got the standard small plus to everything build I do when I don't really want to invest in a frame. So when I take him out he always feels okayish on standard content and weak on anything 100+.

Part of me wants to just invest in one ability.  But I don't really like any one ability enough to do that. 

[Leqesai]

6 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I think his main problem is that everything he can do, another frame can do better, and it doesn't help that the update he came with was supposed to be the biggest update ever, but ended up being somewhat of a let-down.  plus his kit is all over the place, he's a summoner/debuffer/CC frame, but again, other frames do it better. if he just had the pablo treatment like Hydroid just got he'd be totally fine, perhaps even end up being a genuinely likable frame by most. 

the question is how* DE would rework him: they could just buff and add scaling to his current powers, but me personally, I would like a kit that leans way more into his Sentient side, maybe with a little Narmer/Archon influence.:

- passive: Caliban's base Adaptation is buffed, and gains an additional increase based on how many enemies are within affinity range: if Caliban is surrounded, he becomes pretty tanky as a result..

- Razorlight: replacement for Razor Gyre; Caliban emits a version of a Battalyst strobe laser that deals Heat, Electric and Toxin damage at random and covers a wide area. shooting the globe at the center increases the laser's damage, so players are encouraged to keep an eye on it, rather than set-and-forget.

- Sentient Wrath: can more or less stay as it is but with an additional benefit: if Caliban has adapted to a damage type, casting this ability sends out a seeking projectile to enemies that are affected and deals that damage type back to them: e.g. if Caliban has been struck by Heat damage, he can cast 2 and deal a large amoutn of heat damage to a trapped enemy. essentially, he becomes a damage reflector, who's power increases the more enemies try to kill him.

- Lethal Progeny: instead of just Conculysts, Caliban now summons 4 different increasingly powerful Sentients: the first is a Vomvalyst who continuously charges Caliban's shields, and is active for as long as Lethal Progeny is active. in addition, a Conculyst is summoned who will be more aggressive and attack enemies in melee. the second cast summons a Battalyst who provides support fire with its cannons and occasionally summons its lasers, the third and final Sentient is a Symbilist, who acts as a bodyguard for Caliban, using its shield to protect him and its laser to decimate the enemy. another idea (perhaps as an augment?) would be to summon mini Archon Specters which would obviously have less health but would be able to perform some of their stronger attacks. a downside could be an increased energy cost to keep it balanced.

- Fusion Strike: now a continuous laser that drains energy over time; deals constant damage ticks and strips armor with each tick as well. again, Caliban can use adaptation to apply any received damage types to the laser, increasing it's lethality even further.

the end result is intended to be a powerful assault frame that benefits from being in the thick of battle and uses Sentient adaptation as tool to reflect damage against enemies, while also allowing him to more effectively scale at higher levels. he still maintains most of his original kit, but now benefits from multiple levels of protection and can both give and take damage with ease. playing as him should feel like you are the ultimate Sentient specimen!.

 

 

 

Just going to respond to one thing you said here; specifically that other frames can do what he does better.

First of all, why does this matter? There are over 50 warframes, to which there are only a handful that are "best". Stop comparing the warframes to other warframes and assess them for what they are without prejudice.

I mean... if you are going to judge based on a comparative analysis then why bother using any niche frame. No reason to ever use a bunch of frames if you take that perspective.

 

Warframe is about options... always has been. When a new frame comes out it isn't a "this frame better be able to address problems different/better than any other frame" situation. It is "okay this frame has an arrangement of abilities that is distinct from other options" to which caliban is surely acceptable. You cant expect upcoming frames to always have unique sets of abilities. There's only so many configurations of buff, damage, cc or debuff. 

 

Anyway, I wholly disagree with the modality you have used here. It's cool that you feel the way you do but I don't think you are doing any frame justice by assessing them in a comparative manner with other frames. If that's the approach why bother using any new frame... the "best choice" frames are very rarely new frames.... most players use the same tired options they've used for half a decade. They don't have to, because frames like caliban, kullervo, and sevagoth exist (and they are quite fun imo) but they do anyway. 

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

If that's the approach why bother using any new frame... the "best choice" frames are very rarely new frames.... most players use the same tired options they've used for half a decade. They don't have to, because frames like caliban, kullervo, and sevagoth exist (and they are quite fun imo) but they do anyway. 

Just going to say that Kullervo is in a totally different realm of potency than Caliban is though.  (Probably Sevagoth too, but I don't feel comfortable proclaiming that when I've barely played him.)  I expect Kullervo is going to be doing creditably well in the end of year stats despite not being out for the whole year and getting some (unfair, IMO) bad press early on.

If not, that's an indication to me that Warframe players really are  set in their ways.

[Leqesai]

3 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just going to say that Kullervo is in a totally different realm of potency than Caliban is though.  (Probably Sevagoth too, but I don't feel comfortable proclaiming that when I've barely played him.)  I expect Kullervo is going to be doing creditably well in the end of year stats despite not being out for the whole year and getting some (unfair, IMO) bad press early on.

If not, that's an indication to me that Warframe players really are  set in their ways.

Kullervo is awesome for sure, but I don't know if the usage rate will reflect how good he is. The usage rate for Sevagoth sure doesn't. Sevagoth is awesome. Citrine is an amazing frame but how often do you see her used? Not terribly often, I reckon. Caliban is hampered by the "this frame isn't as good as other frames so why use him" mentality which is a shame. I don't think he is better than Kullervo (Kullervo is a little overtuned IMO) or Citrine or Sevagoth or Voruna etc. but if I pick him for a mission I'm not suddenly incapable of clearing something. 

See, that's how I'd define a bad frame. If I pick a frame and suddenly I'm unable to clear a node it is a bad frame. I have yet to run into a situation where Caliban feels like a handicap. I mean... His only real issue is the same as many frames. Dealing with Eximus units can be problematic due to long range Eximus abilities OHKOing mission objectives; and Caliban sure isn't alone in having some trouble dealing with this situation (Ember, Atlas, Saryn, Wukong etc. all have issues soloing long excav missions due to no in-built excavator protection ability). 

His 2, 3 and 4 are good abilities and they can carry him through most content without much issue. At least... I've not had much issue with them. I don't mean to speak universally.

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

(Kullervo is a little overtuned IMO)

Yep.

 

13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

If I pick a frame and suddenly I'm unable to clear a node it is a bad frame.

Which frames are like that?

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which frames are like that?

None. That's my point. People are really harsh when it comes to some frames but none are so bad you can't use them to clear missions. 

[Tiltskillet]

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

None. That's my point. People are really harsh when it comes to some frames but none are so bad you can't use them to clear missions. 

So, I think your point has validity.  But when just about any frame can finish just about any content, I feel it's at least understandable that many people will instead compare how well a frame does at specific content versus other frames.  Especially if their outlook on Warframe is that it's largely a farming game, where small inefficiencies add up over time.

[Leqesai]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

So, I think your point has validity.  But when just about any frame can finish just about any content, I feel it's at least understandable that many people will instead compare how well a frame does at specific content versus other frames.  Especially if their outlook on Warframe is that it's largely a farming game, where small inefficiencies add up over time.

I totally get what you're saying here and I agree.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 3 horas, Leqesai dijo:

I don't mean to speak universally.

Caliban is poorly effective and with a pitiful statistically granted kit, that is the best way to describe it for me.
I do not like his design, I do not like how his kit plays, and I don't think his abilities synergize well at all.

It's not "hating for the memes" as much as it is heavily disliking him because I've tried to like him, putting effort behind his builds for the content I enjoy doing, and he didn't feel good. I have no issues with his passive (although I'd make it a bit better, up to 60%), I have no issues with his 4, that's the best thing Caliban has after all, I don't even have issues with the lore and trivia related to his name, as a matter of fact I really liked it, but he has three other abilities that don't quite cut it, paired with mediocre base stats, and a severe lack of identity / focus, that's the most important part.

He's like grafts of the good parts of other frames*, but that don't work, a full Helminth-made frame, a Frankenstein of sorts, and you know what, that maybe was the idea for his "focus", to be a bit of everything, but he fails at being good at it.
^{*Revenant, Rhino, Nekros & Xaku to be precise.}

His 1 sucks, we all know why, a cheap copy of Revenant's 4.

His 2 isn't as good as one thinks it is.
You lift enemies up, that's wonderful, a radial CC that makes it so they cannot attack you and they take amplified damage, but...

1. Just +35% more damage.
   Sure, it scales with strength, but will scale less than other damage debuff abilities like Rage, Reap, or even better Blazing Chakram, and what's more, next point;
    
2. (If I am not mistaken) Only when they are lifted, for enemies that can be lifted, that is.
   ^{Eximus and enemies with overguard can get the effects of Sentient Wrath applied even if they won't be lifted.}
   However, next point;
    
3. The lifted status is removed if anything but a melee hits the enemy.
   Pets, allies, you name it, it has hit the enemy? It removed the lifted status and therefore the effect of Sentient Wrath.
   This even includes the AoE hits of Pseudo-exalted melees!
   ^{Status effects ticks however, do not count as hits therefore do not remove it, that's why Sentient Wrath is pretty good on frames with abilities that deal DoT.}
    
4. Heavy hitting weapons will ragdoll your target to another dimension.
    
5. It's meant to kill but only reliably on lower levels.
    

Aka, "we made it so using the Venato was the better option and that the sentients that fight alongside you don't work counter-intuitively with this ability", can't blame them for that last bit. If the lifted enemies where to be lifted like with Rhinostomp, so that shooting them didn't just make them fall over, or ragdoll in the air so you can't land a precise shot because they keep moving like a car dealership inflatable decoration after being hit, then yeah, it would be good! Speaking of his sentients;
 

His 3 isn't as good as conceptually can be.
Getting three sentients to fight alongside you is exciting and with augments I'd love to see other sentient units, instead of the disappointing Conculysts.
What I gathered from playing him was;

1. At high levels these die super fast making it so for a 75 per unit it is almost wasted energy.
   You need to cast three times for the best effects, and Caliban only has 188 base energy.
    
2. They cannot kill on their own at high levels even when enemies have no defences, plus have pitiful EHP due to their scaling being tied to strength, not enemy level.
    
3. They have a horrible time even getting near enemies to attack them, since they are melee units, which ties back to point 1 & 2.
    
4. They do not regen your shields when they break, not even provide some shield recharge delay boost, or longer shield gate.
    
5. They have a duration, which ties back to point 1. If they die, wasted energy.
    

Now I am sure the counterpoints will be that they increase your survivability by creating a distraction, that their hits can stun enemies, and that they regenerate a good amount of shields per second, which I agree, they do all those things, but that's not enough to consider them good.
Protea's Grenade Fan can do what Lethal Progeny does, for the whole team, in a single 25 energy cast, and in an AoE.
Yes, both giving shields even when yours broke + shield regen, and stunlocking enemies while providing effective amounts of damage, and the same amount of shields per second as two sentients, while on top of that extending shield gate by another 2 seconds.
 

And his 4 is really cool, I have no issues with it whatsoever, it is the best armour strip ability in the game due to how easy to use it is.
So while the idea of how he has to be played is rather simple to understand, (Remove defences, CC enemies, and then your sentients kill) it isn't effective at all.
At the level your 4 doesn't kill in one hit, nor does following it with a 2, your 3 will be far too slow to do anything that is noticeable, moreover when playing with more people.
In solo, which is where I test these things, your shields be getting downed very often too, so no shield regen either, and having to cast abilities to stay alive... should you get my point.

And yes, I know, "just put an augur mod / brief respite and then your shields will start to regen again when you cast an ability", or "Put Nourish on him instead of his 1 so his sentients survive more and spread viral to all enemies that hit them so they create a better stunlock", even "put resonator / shooting gallery / gloom to fix the survivability issue, it's that easy".
Question is, am I "making this frame better by upgrading his kit", or just fixing the issues it has? Because that's what it feels like.
And even after "fixing those issues", he's still worse than most frames.
Most frames that don't need any of those "fixes" to begin with.

Now, with the Abyss of Dagath around the corner, I will go back to Caliban to revisit my build and focus more on that shield delay recharge & shield recharge speed so at bare minimum I can have a cool survivability around fast shield recharge, with more durable shields as well.
That will fix a bit of him, but stills won't tackle any of the major issues I have with the frame at all.

His sentients will still suck at high levels, and his 2 will still be far less usable on him than any other frame due to how it works.
So until they release some augment that makes those abilities good, like they did for Protea's Temporal Anchor and Sevagoth's Reap, Caliban will sit on my arsenal with all his formas and archon shards that I put on him, and when those augments come, I'll have to sacrifice mods that were important for his build.

Conceptually? Caliban is an awesome frame!
In gameplay? He works fine for start chart, but he's overshadowed by plentiful of others at what he's meant to do, and he isn't really usable or fun on Steel Path, but hey, he isn't Inaros at least, right?

I think it is fairly reasoned why I do not like him.
But, that's my opinion.

Edited October 12, 2023 by (PSN)Pablogamer585
Forgot the "exalted" for "Pseudo-exalted", added to clear any possible confusion.

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

• (If I am not mistaken) Only when they are lifted, for enemies that can be lifted, that is.
  ^{Eximus and enemies with overguard can get the effects of Sentient Wrath applied even if they won't be lifted.}
  However, next point;
   
• The lifted status is removed if anything but a melee hits the enemy.
  Pets, allies, you name it, it has hit the enemy? It removed the lifted status and therefore the effect of Sentient Wrath.

The vulnerability is applied even to many or most (but not all) units that are immune to the Lift.  It also still applies for a while if the Lift is removed prematurely. Although for some reason it then doesn't quite last for the full duration of the ability, which could be what mislead you.

I agree with a lot of your points (not just the quoted ones) although I'll say that often I find the early removal of lifted status to be a positive thing. :P

Edited October 12, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[ShogunGunshow]

Also Caliban's 4 has been bugged like literally since release where its lingering effect doesn't even render if you're a client.

That's a bad one. 

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-10-12 at 9:57 PM, DrBorris said:

It is a self fulfilling meme. I think even the biggest Caliban stans can agree he is pretty mid. So when someone comes up and says "lol, this frame is trash," responding with "he's not that bad, he has xyz," all the first person hears is "he's not that bad." Then the cycle continues and spreads. This is despite many, many frames not having a 'use' when using the criteria "does another frame do it better". 

Theres too many parts to quote so im going to quote you

 

Everyone saying Cali is bad but no one sharing their poorly thought out builds

First Archon Shards

2 tau Casting speed, 2 Duration, 1 strength

Umbral Strength and Fibre,         P or norm Continuity,         Auger Duration and strength,           P or norm Flow

Adaptation obviously,             P Sure footed,         and a spare space i filled with P Vigor

 

If Strength is at 200% or close then Stretch or Auger Reach to replace auger strength

Arcanes

Shield Duration and then a spare for preference, in which Molt Augmented adds to Conculyst health and Damage the carves enemy health when done properly

The subsumed ability i prefer is Nourish over Razor gyre

 

Firstly this adds Viral with multiplied Vulnerable damage and full Armor strip

Always Cast in this order. Nourish, Conculyst 3x, Nourish, Conculyst 3x, Nourish 

Whilst Summoned Conculysts distract and spread Viral procs, the only problem is the are slow which means Defence, they are Calibans Bastions not his cannons.   They shall follow only to lvl 250 so if you are at that point stop complaining

His 2 and 4 should be used to trap foes not kill them, lure enemies into Cali's 4 with a chokepoint, then 2 the largest group and Ocucor works well for this or Aoe/Beam the rest

Isn't Warframe supposed to have Strategy,    and yet everyone chooses to go headstrong into bullets before thinking of the map layout and how to use it

Edited October 15, 2023 by (XBOX)Mastermitchel89

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I am a solo player. I play Caliban for his ragdoll physics and Lift status. He's fun. Not as effective as other playstyles, but changing these types of interactions waters down the game. I'd suggest not touching him. Thanks

Edited October 14, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul