Congratulations, DE. Hydroid is no longer worst frame in 2023 Warframe design

[Hexerin]

17 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

The 2 and the 4 are anti synergy

[sunderthefirmament]

11 hours ago, L3512 said:

Yes because Khora can do that better.

I’ve had swinging enemies end up dangerously close to the point.  I can’t believe I’m saying this, but if I ever willingly engage with this NW challenge again, I would be happier to group up with a competent Limbo than a Khora. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by sunderthefirmament

[L3512]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I’ve had swinging enemies end up dangerously close to the point.  I can’t believe I’m saying this, but if I ever willingly engage with this NW challenge again, I would be happier to group you with a competent Limbo than a Khora. 

I've only ever done it solo and Limbo is a liability however I can see what you mean when the enemies start to swing around like crazy sometimes. I just throw a massive dome out in front of the score point on hopefully the snow map, but the other maps work ok too.

[Vindicus8235]

i loved limbo when he came out.  could do some silly things with him still can sometimes but he's really a shade of his former self with exilus and 500 nullifiers on the map.  most teams unless you're in a good premade will typically find him a nuisance moreso than a boon as well.  they should give limbo a 2nd frame kind of like equinox where you can swap between his current normal form (all skills as they are currently) for solo shenanigans and completely rework his 'phased' form or whatever to make him work within the framework of the game for group play.

my personal pick for a partial rework would be baruuk's restraint mechanic.  yea he's great on endurance runs, but the mechanic just doesn't work well with regular game play and it kills a really cool frame.  should eat energy or something if restraint is full.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

On 2023-10-25 at 9:58 PM, Jarriaga said:

Also: Am I the only person here who doesn't see Warcry's armor buff being negated/superseded by Hysteria's invincibility as anti-synergy/counterproductive and thus bad game design? Because everyone who tries to invalidate my points by attacking my playtime/skill makes no mention of this point I've highlighted 5 times in this thread already. Is it a case of "I don't care; therefore it's not a real issue"?

You are right and it's something I noticed way back in her release when Hysteria was a straight up timed invulnerability. Never understood why the frame with highest armor had to come with an invuln button- my guess is that some people at DE think so too which resulted in the weird "oh no sempai witnessed me behaving unladylike" penalty they added to Hysteria some years later. 

I'm kind of baffled at how some people seem so...... offended? combative? to this obvious point. Doubly so because this is a simple redundancy with several simple ways to address them, such as having Warcry's armor buffs convert into- maybe limited time- offensive buffs when Hysteria is activated.

Personally I'd prefer Hysteria to be reworked in some capacity, like a Red Line treatment but with consistent health drain for boosts would be my dream. Warcry already gets that rage barbarian/berserker image for me so Hysteria has to be something even more metal. 

[AegidiusF]

Le 26/10/2023 à 04:56, RichardKam a dit :

I agree her combo stance really need some tweaking.

But playing the devil's advocate here. Hysteria makes her invulnerable. The only problems are 1. nully (a joke) and 2. energy economy (easy). If we buff Hysteria stance to the same level as any common melee like 2x 200% dmg with 100% slash, won't that be a bit OP? 

That's why I am a bit neutral. While I will be happy to see some buff, I also understand having such limitation/downside/whatever you call it.

I partially agree.

About Nullifiers : the only thing you need is Reach (or Primed Reach) on her talons to get rid of their nullifying bubbles from a safe distance. As Valkyr Talons have 100% punch through, Reach is very nice even without having to deal with Nullifiers.

About Energy economy : this was her big problem before the Helminth (when we had to use Dethcube Energy Generator or Equilibrium+Synth Deconstruct), but now we can just use Protea's dispensary or (even better) Voruna's Lycath Hunt (even if it has reduced efficiency, it will trigger often enough to keep your energy bar full).

About Hysteria stance : it could (or should) get some tweaks, but the problem is that it's already the most powerful stance in the whole game, specially since Dagath's update. Hysteria stance gives Valkyr the highest damage multiplier in the game for ground finishers and Prolonged Paralysis will group enemies in front of her opened to ground finishers and slowed down. After Dagath's update, ground finishers deal true damage, making Valkyr a real queen of this kind of finishers.

Hysteria already has a donwside : you will need to give up your ranged weapons.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I’ve had swinging enemies end up dangerously close to the point.  I can’t believe I’m saying this, but if I ever willingly engage with this NW challenge again, I would be happier to group you with a competent Limbo than a Khora. 

Coughs in Index Limbo main.

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

my guess is that some people at DE think so too which resulted in the weird "oh no sempai witnessed me behaving unladylike" penalty they added to Hysteria some years later. 

I remember exactly why they added the nerf years ago, because it's still a sore spot for my fiance who mains her and was one major factor out of many as to why he quit in the first place. DE added the nerf back then, because lots of people were maining Valkyr and permanently keeping themselves in Hysteria, so they added the ramping energy cost to force them out. Sure we had Arcane Energize even back then, but considering it was RNG gated by trials (raids), and you could stack duplicate arcanes together, they were absurdly expensive to acquire via trade so my fiance had no means of circumventing the nerf.

But as I said on the first page of this thread, the nerf feels redundant now. Between all of the tank frames who can achieve stupid levels of survivability (the most notable of them being Revenant) while spending little to no energy, it feels like Valkyr is an energy sink that lurks in the shadow of more superior options. The only reason you'd want to play her now is for slide attack spam that puts a lot of modern weapons to shame.

1 hour ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I'm kind of baffled at how some people seem so...... offended? combative? to this obvious point. Doubly so because this is a simple redundancy with several simple ways to address them, such as having Warcry's armor buffs convert into- maybe limited time- offensive buffs when Hysteria is activated.

There's nothing wrong with redundancy. I main Revenant myself and I use Rolling Guard on the offchance a nullifier sneaks up on me or the damned Violence acolyte silences and disables my Mesmer Skin. Having extra layers of defense means if one happens to fail, you can still find safety in another. Path of Exile taught me the value in that. For Hysteria, that could be as simple as running out of energy so the bonus armor from Warcry will help make sure you're not gonna get shredded.

That being said, converting armor into offensive bonuses would be an improvement to Valkyr and gives all of that bonus armor from Warcry something to do while invulnerable.

1 hour ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Personally I'd prefer Hysteria to be reworked in some capacity, like a Red Line treatment but with consistent health drain for boosts would be my dream. Warcry already gets that rage barbarian/berserker image for me so Hysteria has to be something even more metal. 

Hysteria is fine... ish. It doesn't need a rework. What it needs is for DE to revert its old nerf and buff its stance so neutral, forward, and blocking attacks aren't on par with 2h nikanas for being clunky and weak.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[Jarriaga]

47 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

There's nothing wrong with redundancy.

It is when it is when it's inescapable rather than optional. I would even argue your example with Rolling Guard is not redundant because it applies to all frames when their "defensive" buffs get invalidated on top of clearing you of status. You are willingly sacrificing a mod slot for this convenience/safeguard.

But Hysteria invalidating Warcry's armor buff is not a choice. More so considering the casting cost, animation length, and ability duration. Warcry is meant to be active for as long as possible rather than something you do when Hysteria runs out because Hysteria is cheaper to cast than Warcry to begin with. 

47 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That being said, converting armor into offensive bonuses would be an improvement to Valkyr and gives all of that bonus armor from Warcry something to do while invulnerable.

2 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

I'm kind of baffled at how some people seem so...... offended? combative? to this obvious point. Doubly so because this is a simple redundancy with several simple ways to address them, such as having Warcry's armor buffs convert into- maybe limited time- offensive buffs when Hysteria is activated.

Agreed.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Jarriaga

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 2 heures, BansheeAndZephyrMarried a dit :

 which resulted in the weird "oh no sempai witnessed me behaving unladylike" penalty they added to Hysteria some years later. 

One of the weirdest things is that the backlash on Hysteria deactivation can be very easily avoided (and the game teaches you how !) : just switch to a ranged weapon before uncasting Hysteria : no more backlash at all. This thing should just go. The scaling energy drain is more than enough to stress you whle using Hysteria.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 25.10.2023 um 18:35 schrieb TeaHands:

You wouldn't be trash talking her if she were wearing her anchor arms.

You can never say that any Warframe is the worst. because it depends on what you do.
I very rarely play Loki because I want to look at enemy models up close. or check how lousy and super boring mob ai behaves. and Loki is actually more pointless than pointless.

therefore....

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Personally I'd prefer Hysteria to be reworked in some capacity, like a Red Line treatment but with consistent health drain for boosts would be my dream. Warcry already gets that rage barbarian/berserker image for me so Hysteria has to be something even more metal. 

Me too.  But 9 years in, I feel like there is zero chance of DE putting that kind of work into it, when the best case scenario is it's going to get a ton of backlash from people who see it as the one thing about Valkyr that works.   I'm sure they felt they were  on much safer ground with Hydroid and Puddle, and the reaction there may put them off dramatic ability changes even more than they already are.  I bet Pablo still has scars from the Nezha rework, and that was one of the best and best received reworks ever to a frame who was deeply unpopular at the time.  Despite that there were so many reactions from people who saw  "Halo reduced to 90% DR" and lost their ****.

It's sort of the ideal thing for a new augment, a la Gourmand.  But Hysteria is in the awkward position of already having two.

[PR1D3]

On 2023-10-26 at 11:47 AM, Alguien said:

"But she has sonar which allows you to do lots of damage so we can ignore the rest of her kit being bad, much like we can ignore how Valkyr's kit is bad because of her slide attack"

Don't get me started. 

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

On 2023-10-26 at 9:47 AM, Alguien said:

"But she has sonar which allows you to do lots of damage so we can ignore the rest of her kit being bad, much like we can ignore how Valkyr's kit is bad because of her slide attack"

Don't get me started. 

The rest of Banshee's kit isn't bad.  Her 2 and 3 are good--and I'd argue Silence is more relevant than Sonar now. Her 1 is poor but functional...and unlike a lot of bad abilities, still very fun, IMO. 

What, you say frames are supposed to have four abilities??? 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I always laugh when someone mentions the "worst" frame in the game when Inaros exists 

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

The rest of Banshee's kit isn't bad.  Her 2 and 3 are good--and I'd argue Silence is more relevant than Sonar now. Her 1 is poor but functional...and unlike a lot of bad abilities, still very fun, IMO. 

What, you say frames are supposed to have four abilities??? 

Her kit has tiny little things that snowball into larger problem that makes her unnecessarily clunky in modern Warframe, imo. One huge pet peeve is how all her abilities have hard animations to them. I would had thought at this point Sonic Boom would have been upgraded to a one-handed cast. Sound Quake is so old it's serving in US Government committing insider trading. I do agree that Sonar and Silence are serviceable considering the insane multipliers Sonar has and Silence being unique with its ability to prevent enemies from using their abilities. But she doesn't have any synergies given that she was introduced before that notion came into existence with WF Design. I do believe her age is holding her back a bit. So ultimately you are mostly right. It's not bad but I still think she could benefit from some QoL updates if not a rework to address at bare minimum Sound Quake. I'll admit that some of what fuels my thoughts on her is my desire to see more coherent, intentional designs with Warframes, which is a whole other forum post I need to finish composing.

Cause since you put that joke I'm going to get started now XD. I don't like how people are willing to hand wave a bad kit cause of helminth. "It's ok if 3 abilities are good and one is bad. Just remove the bad one and put on (gloom, roar, thermal sunder, breach surge, insert whatever meta-ability I didn't mention)", I really do not like this opinion. At bare minimum a kit should be functional where all the pieces have a place and a role. I know we throw around the notion of reworks but honestly very few frames actually need a 'rework'. I quantify update as the kit is fine it just needs number tweaks, certain synergies added, or restrictions removed. Voruna's changes for example, the recent update made it where Ulfrun kills count as melee kills so now items that trigger on melee kills trigger on Ulfrun. Lycath's Hunt now interacts with it and drops orbs to Arcane Reaper triggering. Even Grendel was an update. His base is there but was just tweaked. Whereas a full rework sees the same update but the gutting and replacement of at least 1 ability. So Hydroid. 

I want DE to do a dev stream on WF design. I will continue to say it. It feels like they have no internal design bible of bare minimums with designs. And as if there are a handful of people alternating on designs doing whatever each want, be damned if it would jive well with at least half the stuff in the game. Cause you know, there's a reason why we get hyped when Pablo touches something. He makes stuff honestly made for this game.

23 minutes ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I always laugh when someone mentions the "worst" frame in the game when Inaros exists 

Man. I do feel for Inaros at times. But honestly, his users don't want to see any changes with him. Health, Armor, Aracane Grace and Adaptation. At that point it's a repeat of the helminth problem. As long as they have that one niche, cheesy method that trivializes the game then all flaws and shortcomings will be ignored and anyone pointing out said flaws will be insulted as they aren't the 'true' mains that understand the complexities like they do.

 

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

would had thought at this point Sonic Boom would have been upgraded to a one-handed cast.

This exact thing is probably my #1 most desired tweak for her.  Well, out of several others that aren't very realistic.

Although casting her abilities while careening through the air so as not to be ganked during their animations became second nature long ago.

9 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause since you put that joke I'm going to get started now XD. I don't like how people are willing to hand wave a bad kit cause of helminth. "It's ok if 3 abilities are good and one is bad. Just remove the bad one and put on (gloom, roar, thermal sunder, breach surge, insert whatever meta-ability I didn't mention)", I really do not like this opinion.

I don't think I framed that joke well, because I feel the same, and was not referencing Helminth. It was more like "All three of Banshee's abilities are fine, IDK what you're talking about.  Wait, Warframes have ults???" 

It's gotten to the point where players will say it's a plus that a frame has a mediocre ability, for a thought-free Helminth replacement.  I'm sure some of these opinions are tongue-in-cheek, but not all of them.  Drives me up the wall. :P

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I always laugh when someone mentions the "worst" frame in the game when Inaros exists 

As I pointed out later on in this thread: Inaros may be useless, but he is at least better-designed than Valkyr by virtue of having at least 1 synergy between abilities and a cohesive theme that doesn't clash between build types.

If damage and survival are your parameters for good or bad then Inaros is worse, yes. But he at least doesn't negate his 2 with his 4, which is bad design.

[sunderthefirmament]

20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If damage and survival are your parameters for good or bad then Inaros is worse, yes. But he at least doesn't negate his 2 with his 4, which is bad design.

Sorry if I missed something, but is your "anti-synergy" stance that the armor boost from Valkyr's 2 is what makes it anti-synergistic with her 4?

 

I don't think the armor is the selling point on her 2.  And even if it were, doesn't reducing incoming damage during her 4 mean she has less backlash when it ends?  To be fair, I've never noticed the backlash damage.  I don't play Valkyr much these days, but she was my main when I was making my way through the star chart years ago.

[_Zyabl1K_]

В 25.10.2023 в 19:58, Mazifet сказал:

Th? Oberon may not be meta but he can heal, cheat death, armor strip, tank, crowd control and do extra damage. In no way is he the worst frame.

The problem with Oberon is that it's about everything and nothing at the same time. Yes, he can heal, remove armor and somehow control the crowd, BUT he does not perform any of these tasks better than others (or at least at the level of others).
I will make a reservation that I will talk about oberon without considering the mechanics of helminth.

Personally, I have lost interest in him, since he has the most effective build through the shield gate (and in this case, the maximum that you need is to keep the third ability turned on and have an augment for safety and have a good gun).

Yes, you can still go to eidolons, but here Volt is a clear monopolist. (Even in solo mode).

With the steel path, everything is also sad, since you will take off the armor, but you will not kill everyone at once (beautiful numbers of murders can only be seen on survival and then in the presence of AOE weapons).

And from the previous paragraphs, you can see that a good gun is needed everywhere, since abilities do not kill (and even here he does not have a contraction to somehow simplify the killing). You might as well take Loki, who can also live, only he is more versatile due to invisibility.

Total: there is no obvious direction where to build (because everything will not work at once, and this is the only option in which it can be interesting in its modern form); there are no tasks in which it would be competitive; in solo mode, a punching bag.

P. S. I tried to come up with at least something interesting and non-standard for Oberon, but it's still sad in terms of efficiency. For example, I tried to use the mechanics of radiation on defense (max zone and armor removal on the joint venture), but everything rested either on a lack of strength or a lack of survival. (the thing turned out to be cool, but not for solo play). Plus, even here I had to use helminth to get energy independence.

[Marvelous_A]

Oberon and Caliban have a lot of QoL issues and they should get fixed first before DE moves on to another warframe.

Also Valkyr is DEFINITELY not the worst warframe.

[Jarriaga]

15 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Sorry if I missed something, but is your "anti-synergy" stance that the armor boost from Valkyr's 2 is what makes it anti-synergistic with her 4?

Correct. 

Warcry becomes a worse ability that gets negated and contributes nothing to your build (Defense-wise) the second Hysteria is activated because Hysteria makes you immortal. 

15 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I don't think the armor is the selling point on her 2.

I think we should think of the ability as a whole and its relation to the rest of her kit when you take into account the energy cost, ability duration and casting speed for it.

15 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And even if it were, doesn't reducing incoming damage during her 4 mean she has less backlash when it ends?

Hysteria backlash is reset when aiming your weapon ever since melee 2.999999. 

[sunderthefirmament]

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Hysteria backlash is reset when aiming your weapon ever since melee 2.999999. 

I’m glad you brought that up. I would posit that the ease of swapping between ranged weaponry and Hysteria makes the armor boost from Warcry still relevant.  You’re not invincible while aiming with a ranged weapon during Hysteria. 
 

I will certainly agree that Valkyr has aged a bit. She’s got some significant flaws, and I hope she gets developer attention. But I guess I don’t think of how warcry and hysteria interact as anti-synergy, or the slam dunk “she’s the worst designed frame in the game” argument that you think it is. 
 

Honestly, I think a bigger issue with Warcry is the slow and how the augment doesn’t reapply it. 
 

Anyway, if she does get any developer attention, what I would hope for first and foremost would be redoing the hysteria stance. It feels awful. Then I would look at preserving momentum on ripline and changing its “pull enemies” functionality, maybe even removing it.  Then paralysis. God, what a mess of an ability. Finally, the slow on Warcry. 

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

On 2023-10-26 at 3:27 AM, Jarriaga said:

3) Her 2 only scales her base armor

to be fair Her base Armor is higher than my hopes

'seeing the rest' 'noting future Rework plan'

[PR1D3]

19 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't think I framed that joke well, because I feel the same, and was not referencing Helminth. It was more like "All three of Banshee's abilities are fine, IDK what you're talking about.  Wait, Warframes have ults???" 

It's gotten to the point where players will say it's a plus that a frame has a mediocre ability, for a thought-free Helminth replacement.  I'm sure some of these opinions are tongue-in-cheek, but not all of them.  Drives me up the wall. :P

No, I didn't frame my comment well. I knew you were saying that, totally agree as well and I just went into rant mode cause I've been running into the Helminth Design defense this week. Caught in the crossfire. I was in no way bashing/coming after you.