Could you nerf subsumed Thermal Sunder more please?

[MageSkeleton]

i'm not sure how i feel about how this topic was started with literally complaining about not getting affinity in a "one and done" mission type. You want to gain affinity in an EXTERMINATE? what? That's what endless modes are for. i would argue defense needs a reword because once the "thing to defend" dies mission fails versus if you run out of Life Support in Survival you still have the chance to run to extraction and survive the extraction timer if needed. 

The reason players use such strategies in Exterminate, Capture, and potentially Mobile Defense missions is because the end reward is why players are playing the mission. The enemies and by extension any affinity that can be gained is irrelevant. And you can't tell me you can't survive at least five minutes in a survival mission. Also, i don't know why players always recommend Hydron on Sedna but i recommend Titan on Saturn. Or if your feeling good the Survival on the Kuva Fortress. There is a special survival mission on Lua with special drops you could make use of that features corpus enemies but no nullifiers. 

Thermal Sunder is one of the few abilties available in the game that lets players use an AoE damage ability that can be on any warframe. In a game where the PvE is constantly being "balanced." Do i need to say that again? you may not comprehend bad that sounds. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by MageSkeleton
after reading a bunch of other posts, i forgot this thread was about Thermal Sunder

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

28 minutes ago, MageSkeleton said:

i'm not sure how i feel about how this topic was started with literally complaining about not getting affinity in a "one and done" mission type. You want to gain affinity in an EXTERMINATE? what? That's what endless modes are for. i would argue defense needs a reword because once the "thing to defend" dies mission fails versus if you run out of Life Support in Survival you still have the chance to run to extraction and survive the extraction timer if needed. 

The reason players use such strategies in Exterminate, Capture, and potentially Mobile Defense missions is because the end reward is why players are playing the mission. The enemies and by extension any affinity that can be gained is irrelevant. And you can't tell me you can't survive at least five minutes in a survival mission. Also, i don't know why players always recommend Hydron on Sedna but i recommend Titan on Saturn. Or if your feeling good the Survival on the Kuva Fortress. There is a special survival mission on Lua with special drops you could make use of that features corpus enemies but no nullifiers. 

Thermal Sunder is one of the few abilties available in the game that lets players use an AoE damage ability that can be on any warframe. In a game where the PvE is constantly being "balanced." Do i need to say that again? you may not comprehend bad that sounds. 

The complaint was, loading into a mission, and the entire mission is just sprinting to the exit. It's not "just about affinity" but that is the bare minimum that I would not complain about. 

Sprinting to the exit with no enemies or combat or anything interesting, just sprinting and some parkour, with a lil bit of affinity maybe so I don't feel like I completely wasted my time for nothing, I'd be OK with.

Sprinting to the exit with no enemies or combat or anything interesting, no affinity, and like another (another) common relic, that's what I'm complaining about. 

[Seele]

There's no accounting for taste, I suppose, so if pressing whichever button you've subsumed Thermal Sunder to is your idea of fun, never having to consider your resources or make decisions or even point your camera in a given general direction, then by all means. Have fun. I'm sure it's still plenty fun for you now because the results are pretty comparable to what they were before, and at this point it's hard for me to imagine a way for it to become un-"fun" unless the developers made it do literally nothing.

Every public lobby I play being filled with actual bots who do this is not fun. It could be a level 25 exterminate, an archon hunt, steel path disruption, arbitrations, anything. It's all I see. Garudas and the occasional Harrow or Titania or Gauss just thermal sundering away, even after the nerf.

It's funny to me that people are so quick to defend broken interactions and mechanics under the claim that Warframe is a "power fantasy" game. It is fantasy, and you can become quite powerful, sure. Steam labels its genres as "free-to-play", "looter shooter", and "action RPG". Short of "looter shooter" all of this also applies to Dark Souls, a series nobody would seriously call power fantasy games. Has a dev ever said "we are not going to attempt to balance this game, because it is power fantasy and being too powerful is fun"? If so, please show me, I would love to hear it myself.

What should be plain and obvious - and the devs (timidly) tend towards this balance philosophy themselves - is that powerful and easy need to be meaningfully distinct. I played when the Ogris was a rifle and, as such, started each mission with over 500 ammo. That was changed. Why? Having unlimited rockets is too powerful and too easy. Ogris used to automatically headshot everything. That was changed. Why? Automatically headshotting everything was too powerful and too easy. Headshotting something with a sniper rifle is powerful, but not nearly so easy.

Ignis used to be stronger and also instantly headshot everything. That was changed. Ember used to be capable of clearing an entire mission after a single activation of her 4 at the beginning. That was changed. Atterax slide attack macros used to be the best way to play the game. That was changed. Most reasonable people would say the changes were made to better the game, but each change was also met with considerable resistance, ranging from forum tantrums to actual death threats. Small wonder the devs are cautious with tuning down anything too good.

But it's not just things that are too good! Grendel used to be able to eat exorbitant amounts of enemies - patch notes specify that he could eat over 90! This was reduced to a cap of 40, and Grendel was objectively not good at that time, either before or after the change. While the primary aim of the change was to combat performance issues, it was a loss in power with no compensatory gain - Grendel, one of the worst warframes at the time, was nerfed. Many people complained that Grendel eating the whole mission made the game less fun, not because Grendel was too good but because he made it so there was no more game to play. They were absolutely right. The new Grendel - the Grendel which is the result of developers trying to balance and improve the game - is not only a more powerful warframe overall, but does not detract from other players' enjoyment the way the old, weaker one did.

The change made to thermal sunder affects only the absolute highest end of the game's power scaling, so most experiences are virtually unchanged. A timid half-step in the right direction. Still being met with stink-eyes who cannot comprehend the audacity of someone ruining their super-smart idea they found on reddit.

I am holding out for the devs to come up with a more elegant solution, likely a total rework to Thermal Sunder that will either make it far less powerful to balance it with how easy it is, or - far more likely given recent design trends - actually make it more powerful, but not so easy. I think it's every game developer's heartfelt intent for the players of their game to... play... the game. Not have a bot automate it or have them idly hold a button while scrolling on their phone. But forgive my assumption. I'd honestly rather just have Helminth abilities go all the way away.

[Tiltskillet]

10 hours ago, Seele said:

Has a dev ever said "we are not going to attempt to balance this game, because it is power fantasy and being too powerful is fun"? If so, please show me, I would love to hear it myself.

They have said stuff like this a few times:

How do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?
[DE]Pablo: We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!
The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.

 

That's from the Reddit AMA earlier this year.  I cribbed the transcription from @PublikDomain's summary here:

 

There's some room for interpretation there.  But to me it's abundantly clear from DE's actions that balance is still a goal on their list.  Even if it's a lower priority than most games, and  in service of other goals they have.

 

 

[KitMeHarder]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

The complaint was, loading into a mission, and the entire mission is just sprinting to the exit. It's not "just about affinity" but that is the bare minimum that I would not complain about. 

Sprinting to the exit with no enemies or combat or anything interesting, just sprinting and some parkour, with a lil bit of affinity maybe so I don't feel like I completely wasted my time for nothing, I'd be OK with.

Sprinting to the exit with no enemies or combat or anything interesting, no affinity, and like another (another) common relic, that's what I'm complaining about. 

But you've yet to comment on or argue against why you aren't just playing SP fissures then? Your forum account alone is from 2018. What joy is it for you to face level 15-40 enemies? If fissures aren't just the reward(s) for you and you want the combat, why aren't you playing SP?

Or at least why aren't you playing endless modes? Why are you only commenting on/playing the "race to extraction" type fissures?

Edited October 31, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

28 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

But you've yet to comment on or argue against why you aren't just playing SP fissures then? Your forum account alone is from 2018. What joy is it for you to face level 15-40 enemies? If fissures aren't just the reward(s) for you and you want the combat, why aren't you playing SP?

Or at least why aren't you playing endless modes? Why are you only commenting on/playing the "race to extraction" type fissures?

Because I was taking unleveled Dagath on fisures? Killing two birds with one stone? Increasing my incentive to play the game. Wasn't any endless fissures available. Favorite mission types be Mobile Defense actually. Not available at the time. 

There's a "triangle" of things that I'd like out of a Warframe game session. Combat/Gameplay, Affinity, and End Mission Rewards. I'm pretty happy if I can get 2/3 of those triangle points. 3/3 is a very good game session, entertaining and progressing something. Getting 1/3 is usually a bad game session, has me like "why am I playing". Thermal Sunder Titania usually degrades 3/3 game sessions into 2/3, or turns 2/3 into 1/3. 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2023-10-28 at 2:07 PM, SDGDen said:

alright so, time for a tiny lesson in game design and "power fantasy":

Starting off already being this condescending, and speaking like you're somehow a bigger authority because you have a different opinion is not a good way to get anyone to read what you wrote.

[KitMeHarder]

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Because I was taking unleveled Dagath on fisures? Killing two birds with one stone?

EDIT: Your phrasing sounds like you don't know there are SP fissures. Mind clarifying?

You say that like I'm supposed to know? You could have been getting affinity for anything.

DE also made unranked frames have much better stats this update. And depending on your MR (starting mod cap), you could have easily done SP if all you were doing was leeching XP/getting it via weapons.

Other considerations

• If you already put a forma on her, all of her abilities were a very high/max rank. So even more reason to do SP
• Wyrd Scythe kills on normal are worthless compared to the increased affinity/spawn numbers in SP (if that was your thought process)

30 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Wasn't any endless fissures available. Favorite mission types be Mobile Defense actually. Not available at the time.

So you didn't want to wait, intentionally put yourself in a potentially bad situation (in terms of getting what you wanted out of a mission), and had (one) bad experience and decided to complain on the forums to demand nerfs? Does that sound reasonable to you?

Edited October 31, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Just now, KitMeHarder said:

You say that like I'm supposed to know? You could have been getting affinity for anything.

DE also made unranked frames have much better stats this update. And depending on your MR (starting mod cap), you could have easily done SP if all you were doing was leeching XP/getting it via weapons.

Other considerations

• If you already put a forma on her, all of her abilities were a very high/max rank. So even more reason to do SP
• Wyrd Scythe kills on normal are worthless compared to the increased affinity/spawn numbers in SP (if that was your thought process)

So you didn't want to wait, intentionally put yourself in a potentially bad situation (in terms of getting what you wanted out of a mission), and had (one) bad experience and decided to complain on the forums to demand nerfs? Does that sound reasonable to you?

It's not "one" bad experience lmao, this has happened many times. You need to git gudur at this "I know better than you" schtick.

[KitMeHarder]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

You need to git gudur at this "I know better than you" schtick.

You ignore my point about SP fissures and then go on to just restate yourself with more details. And if your point about your "unleveled Dagath" was your excuse for not doing SP, then I think you're the one that needs to "git gudur".

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

9 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You ignore my point about SP fissures and then go on to just restate yourself with more details. And if your point about your "unleveled Dagath" was your excuse for not doing SP, then I think you're the one that needs to "git gudur".

🙄

[Fred_Avant_2019]

You want subsumed Thermal Sunder nerfed? Alright sure, let's imagine a world where that happens.

What comes next then?

People import the build they have on their TS Titanias all the way back to Gauss, find out it's even easier to play with. Meta shifts back to Gauss.

 

What have we achieved?

Nothing.

Good. Job. 👏

 

Meanwhile, here I am, abusing 265 Range Gyre, one shotting enemies in fart smelling range which chains lightning across the origin system all the way to tau system and back, twice over. With a grand total of zero button presses.

 

Or you know, I could just play Equinox.

And there's even more where that came from because a good half of the roaster has buttons to go BRRRRT ENERGY = ALL OF YOU ARE DEAD.

 

But I'm gonna be even more of a jerk and put some dirt in your eye.

• Affinity Range Issues? Railjack.
• Gameplay diversity? Railjack.
• End missions rewards? Holy shoot is Railjack far superior to anything ground missions get to offer, and by a huge margin.

Seriously, instead of circle jerking on the idea of nerfing everything, just maybe try to actually play the superior gamemode for a change and stop looking for easy excuses out of it.

• "Oh but I don't have a Railjack", don't worry, you will, you need one for New War anyway.
• "Oh but my Railjack sucks", maybe if you actually grinded it the same way you grinded a frame, it would not.
• "Oh but I never have anyone to play Railjack with", that's actually good sometimes, because the AI doesn't pilot so bad and gunners aimbot, as you'd expect, and if you're doing corpus proxima, well none of the railjack part matters to begin with. It's JUST a ground mission with a weird prologue.
• "Oh but Railjack just takes too long do missions in", first of all, skill issue, second, if you have one or two players who know what they're doing, together you can get skirmishes done quick, under two minutes for earth proxima, sub 3 for saturn proxima and easily sub 3:30 for veil proxima. Corpus Proxima, you just have to avoid Volatile, that's all. Because one single run is going to take you like 8 minutes even if you're fast, that's just Volatile being horrible.
• "Railjack isn't fun", that's a you problem. I'm just trying to help you so that you don't have to lose your breath running after the 50 billion miles per hour iron butterfly that clears missions by releasing so much greenhouse gases that even the corrupted start filling reports. It can get stale. Fast. No denying that. But the rewards man, just focus on the rewards.

Everyone will just simply try any number of previous excuses, and even more levels of bs that I've come across, time and time again, all because their brains cannot handle the simple maths of "more rewards = more gg". Oh you're doing relics? Here, have another, except this one is rad because why not. Infinite Endo, sure let's go for it, I mean I don't know your MR, but if you're at the level of being upset about speedrunning missions, you might need some. Then, let's just give stacks upon stacks of resources that you can easily just dump into the Helminth system because once you're done minmaxing your RJ you'll never have any use for them anyway (my common RJ resources are numbered in millions). And of course, let's not forget to make one thing clear... Railjack has the highest credits values the game can offer, allowing you to make millions in a few Veil missions.

So in short, Railjack has rewards of ESO in relics and affinity, the rewards of Sedna Arenas for endo except far more, free crap for helminth to chew on and enough credit income to completely ignore the Index.

 

The truth is,

• You wanna go fast, you do ground Exterminate or Capture with an AoE frame or weapon and quickly reach extraction. Which is what most people do, and bring stuff to do so accordingly or get carried by those who do.
• You wanna go average ish but endless, you do Interception if you're smart, Excavation if you think you're smart and Survival if you're neither. Disruptions is chads only. The issue with Excavation is having that moment when the team just splits up and some member in the squad just gets screwed over by not having any traces spawning and that other guy puts in the last battery on 20s remaining. We all see it, we all know it, I ain't filled an excavator until everyone had 10 ever since.
• You wanna get alot of everything you just do Railjack. Grineer Skirmishes to go fast, Corpus Proxima when you have no other options.

 

Seriously, if people spent all the time they complain railjack into grinding it instead they'd all have something at least somewhat combat ready. I mean, just press seeker volley, it's not that hard.

I know it looks like I derailed from the main topic, but I can assure you I did not, for it was, in fact, a trainwreck itself.

[Seele]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

They have said stuff like this a few times:

How do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?
[DE]Pablo: We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!
The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.

 

That's from the Reddit AMA earlier this year.  I cribbed the transcription from @PublikDomain's summary here:

 

There's some room for interpretation there.  But to me it's abundantly clear from DE's actions that balance is still a goal on their list.  Even if it's a lower priority than most games, and  in service of other goals they have.

 

 

Thank you. I think Pablo's stance is a reasonable one, and they have frequently attempted to add challenges that subverted obscene player power (Exploiter Orb, latter Mastery Rank challenges, etc. largely disregarding your Warframe entirely) though they never do quite cut the mustard all the way through.

I take particular note of the language "the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mortals". If spamming TS was truly so fun, I would probably see more real people do it. Instead the TS spammers I see have names that look like default wifi passwords or social security numbers, and it is very hard to believe they actually have a human at the helm. What a loss, for such fun to be wasted on bots.

Now don't get me entirely wrong. I too can appreciate the novelty of discovering some apparent developer oversight that leads to insane power. I've thought of combos in Magic the Gathering and combined gear in Baldur's Gate 3 thinking "there is just no way this works the way it looks like it will" (and then it does). But once the novelty wears off it stops interesting me. Once the players at my commander tables collectively groan at seeing the same game-ending combo once again, or the big overleveled dragon dies in one round of combat because of my busted equipment, I ask myself just how much fun I'm actually having. Maybe that's just me. Being OP can be fun, for a few minutes.

[(PSN)rexis12]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

You didn't even touch the topic, smh. The topic is mostly that Titania with Thermal Sunder turns the mission into a walking simulator for everyone else involved. Probably just triggered by the word "nerf" being too close to a braindead gameplay loop that you enjoy, so you pulled out your copy paste.

So like, when the Titania's with TS gets nerfed and the people start playing Gyre instead to do the same are you gonna ask them to nerf her as well?

[AegidiusF]

The  problem is that there are many warframe abilities (and also many weapons) that can clean entire rooms of low level enemies very easily.

The problem described by the OP is much more a matchmaking problem (players with different goals in the same squad) than an unbalanced nuker ability problem.

Void Fissures are mostly for players who want to open relics. Ressource farm and affinity farm are not the main goal of these kind of missions. For affinity, FOSFOR can solve the problem.

Players that are grinding for  some Prime parts will need to do the same missions many times in a row, that's why they will want to finish the mission as fast as possible (this is normal : their goal is to get some parts, not to have fun with the mission : their fun will come from the obtention of the wanted Prime stuff). Volt, Gauss, Wukong, Titania are very often seen on this kind of mission.

That's why I don't see any need to nerf even more Thermal Sunder. The exponential scaling damage has already been fixed.

Edited October 31, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

8 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So like, when the Titania's with TS gets nerfed and the people start playing Gyre instead to do the same are you gonna ask them to nerf her as well?

Probably not, because Gyre wont be several rooms ahead, and I can get a lil affinity as a treat. Yalls reading comprehension is terrible. Dont comment if you don't know what you're talking about. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Probably not, because Gyre wont be several rooms ahead, and I can get a lil affinity as a treat. Yalls reading comprehension is terrible. Dont comment if you don't know what you're talking about. 

Oh lmao is THAT the issue you have.

Man and I thought people complaining about Fissures being done too fast are lame.

Go do a Survival or a Def Fissue then if you want Affinity so much.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 2 minutes, (PSN)rexis12 a dit :

Oh lmao is THAT the issue you have.

Man and I thought people complaining about Fissures being done too fast are lame.

Go do a Survival or a Def Fissue then if you want Affinity so much.

I'm much slower than many players and I'm never the first on some Void Fissures (Exterminate, Rescue and Capture), but I think that if the goal is to get some Affinity, Hydron would be better or just using Fosfor (both colors, by the way). Survival and Defense, as you suggested, would be nice choices too.

As I said before, I don't think the problem the OP is experiencing (I can understand this kind of problem) is caused by Thermal Sunder or nuking abilities, but mostly by choosing quick Void Fissures (Exterminate, Rescue and Capture) to gain Affinity and ressources : the main goal of these missions is to finish them as fast as possible to get some Prime Parts (Affinity and ressources can be earned, but they are secondary in this kind of mission).

[Pizzarugi]

9 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

So like, when the Titania's with TS gets nerfed and the people start playing Gyre instead to do the same are you gonna ask them to nerf her as well?

If Thermal Sunder is broken, DE isn't going to nerf Titania for having it subsumed. Thermal Sunder is what's going to get nerfed.

And I don't recall ever seeing Gyre being treated as a nuke frame. In all the time I've seen other players use her, deleting rooms of enemies through walls in an instant to describe her isn't something that never once crossed my mind. No, what I expect people to do if TS gets nerfed is once again defaulting back to Saryn and Mesa which are also long overdue for one.

But let's assume Gyre does somehow become the next go-to frame that people use to 1shot rooms of enemies: Yes, she should be nerfed too. Balance is a neverending struggle that every game both PvE and PvP does. Why? Because devs have it in their best interest to keep players in their games. If they let everyone gravitate towards what's easy and cheesy, sooner or later they're going to get bored since there's nothing that can provide a challenge so they abandon the game in search of something else.

To quote a game dev: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

[(PSN)rexis12]

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

To quote a game dev: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game

Oh please then tell me then, where's the fun in a 2%-10% Drop Chance for a single Prime Warframe part that'll take 12 hours to build?

You don't want players to 'optimise the fun' out of your game, maybe done make the gun tedious and boring. Hell you don't see DMC games being 'optimised' out of their fun.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Oh please then tell me then, where's the fun in a 2%-10% Drop Chance for a single Prime Warframe part that'll take 12 hours to build?

You don't want players to 'optimise the fun' out of your game, maybe done make the gun tedious and boring. Hell you don't see DMC games being 'optimised' out of their fun.

Then bring that up to DE. The problem with grind has been an issue for as long this game has existed. The solution isn't to ask for more ways to subvert it, or otherwise treat the symptom, but to remove the source.

[(PSN)rexis12]

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Then bring that up to DE. The problem with grind has been an issue for as long this game has existed. The solution isn't to ask for more ways to subvert it, or otherwise treat the symptom, but to remove the source.

Oh we do bring it up to DE, but they never listen and so we work around it and again and again and again, and every time we do and bring it up why we do it's people like you say it's our fault and say dumb S#&$ like

18 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

 "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

Maybe the fact that players 'optimise' the fun out of the games should've been a bigger sign to both DE and community, but y'all see just as ready to attack players that don't want to spend several hours to get a 1% drop that's part of a set that's also a 1% drop by calling them out for 'optimising' the fun out of a grind that can talk well over MONTHS.

 

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Oh we do bring it up to DE, but they never listen and so we work around it and again and again and again, and every time we do and bring it up why we do it's people like you say it's our fault and say dumb S#&$ like

Maybe the fact that players 'optimise' the fun out of the games should've been a bigger sign to both DE and community, but y'all see just as ready to attack players that don't want to spend several hours to get a 1% drop that's part of a set that's also a 1% drop by calling them out for 'optimising' the fun out of a grind that can talk well over MONTHS.

 

Bro did you even click the link attached to the quote? It goes into detail about the nature of players who lean towards the meta.

TL;DR: Players gravitate towards whatever is considered the best strategy which has the added downside of viewing all other alternatives as sub-par and unworthy of consideration, thus stifling player choice.

If Saryn, Mesa, Thermal Sunder, etc are the best choices for just about any situation in the game, what incentives do players have to ever consider anything else if they're deemed inferior options?

Edited October 31, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[(PSN)rexis12]

4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If Saryn, Mesa, Thermal Sunder, etc are the best choices for just about any situation in the game, what incentives do players have to ever consider anything else if they're deemed inferior options?

Then change the situation in the game.

Again I don't hear people clamoring for Nerfs to Volt and Rubico because they're 'Dominating' Eidolons, so what's the deal.

Is it bad when an option is super good to the detriment of others, then where's the massive Nerf to Volt and Rubico, where's the dozens upon dozens of threads where it's unfair that the Volt kills the Eidolons too fast.

"Saryn and Mesa and Thermal Sunder are too optimal"

Yeah no S#&$ it's a game where killing things is the only thing that matters, you made them with the sole purpose and identity of killing, why would people want to pick when that's how they DESIGNED the game.

Hell for the first since they added Defense and Eximus they had to Change Eximus Rules towards Defense objectives because for the first time people were forced to bring the 'un-optimal' choice to Defense Steel Path and it showed how messed up and how bad it was when you didn't have the 'Optimised the Fun' option.

You don't want players to optimise the fun, then ask why they optimise S#&$ in the first place. When winning is the only thing that matters, players will want to win and when you only make one choice and one outcome people WILL decide that it's better to pick the outcome that will actually matter.

Like you mean to tell me that it's the players fault that a Inaros with a MK-1 Barton isn't as effective and thus picked less for Relic Cracking as the Titania with Thermal Sunder?

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Then change the situation in the game.

Again I don't hear people clamoring for Nerfs to Volt and Rubico because they're 'Dominating' Eidolons, so what's the deal.

Is it bad when an option is super good to the detriment of others, then where's the massive Nerf to Volt and Rubico, where's the dozens upon dozens of threads where it's unfair that the Volt kills the Eidolons too fast.

Eidolons are an entirely different subject that DE also needs to address. Personally I hate that content, because of how outstandingly limited the meta is that you need a very restricted roster of weapons and frames in order to optimize your chances of getting Arcane Energize to drop in a single night cycle. The biggest problem with that example is that, outside of this specific content which is barely a fraction of what the rest of the game has to offer, neither Volt nor Rubico are broken. You nerf Rubico for Eidolon hunts and you make it a worse weapon overall, same with Volt.

The solution here would be to give Eidolons a mechanic where it can only take a limited instance of damage at any one time. This means players can't juice themselves to be able to 1shot their shields and weakpoints, allowing other weapon options to become more viable.

"But that would just make the content grindier since it takes longer to defeat them" you might argue. Yes it would, so buff the arcane drop chances to account for it.

12 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"Saryn and Mesa and Thermal Sunder are too optimal"

Yeah no S#&$ it's a game where killing things is the only thing that matters, you made them with the sole purpose and identity of killing, why would people want to pick when that's how they DESIGNED the game.

Hell for the first since they added Defense and Eximus they had to Change Eximus Rules towards Defense objectives because for the first time people were forced to bring the 'un-optimal' choice to Defense Steel Path and it showed how messed up and how bad it was when you didn't have the 'Optimised the Fun' option.

You don't want players to optimise the fun, then ask why they optimise S#&$ in the first place. When winning is the only thing that matters, players will want to win and when you only make one choice and one outcome people WILL decide that it's better to pick the outcome that will actually matter.

Literally nothing you said here disproves the quote I linked earlier. Warframe is a horde shooter, of course people are going to lean into builds that destroy them as quickly as possible. It's no different than the tank-mage meta in MMOs or "infinite city sleaze" in older Civ games, as explained in the article I linked.

However, letting players keep their meta of a very small handful of frames and abilities while ignoring everything else as sub-optimal, you're effectively stifling player choice as nothing else matters.

And that's why they should be nerfed.

17 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Like you mean to tell me that it's the players fault that a Inaros with a MK-1 Barton isn't as effective and thus picked less for Relic Cracking as the Titania with Thermal Sunder?

That's an unrealistic example and you know it. Nobody in their right mind is willingly going to play the worst of everything outside of some weird challenge they put upon themselves.

You could've went with Vauban using a Phenmor, Valkyr with a Hate incarnon, or Nidus with ability spam. All perfectly fine frames and weapons, all considered sub-optimal because they can't delete rooms full of enemies in an instant. So, why would anyone play them when they are all worse?