Why does the ancient disruptor energy draining attacks go through status immunity, invulnerability and everything else.

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Dude, if you’re going to use Steel Path as your basis for balance, you’re out of touch with the game.

Nah, you're the one who's out of touch if you want to discuss balance and design with the normal star chart as the basis. I literally explained why that's not valid in the very post you just quoted, too.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Nah, you're the one who's out of touch if you want to discuss balance and design with the normal star chart as the basis. I literally explained why that's not valid in the very post you just quoted, too.

You pointed out that distance is the biggest factor in getting hooked. Which makes sense, since Infested are not the ones you want to get close to. And explains why I haven’t been hooked because I’m not jumping into a bunch of Infested slashing away expecting zero consequence or counterplay from the enemy faction that’s designed around being effective at melee range.

That doesn’t strike me as badly designed, that strikes me as “Don’t get close or stay still and you’ll be mostly fine”. I’m in Plaguestar at the moment and the area can get full of Infested, but the fact that it’s an open world and the fight sits in the middle of an open plain makes Ancient Disruptors a lot less of a problem because of my ability to keep my distance and on the move, versus an enclosed tileset

[(NSW)Greybones]

25 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Nah, you're the one who's out of touch if you want to discuss balance and design with the normal star chart as the basis. I literally explained why that's not valid in the very post you just quoted, too.

Wait wait, I misunderstood what you were pointing out, so that was my bad.

Instead, you pointed out that you can do the Standard Game modless if you’re good enough. The validity of that statement is questionable depending on what someone brings to the fight or wants to do and how they’re built to play, but even if it were completely true you’re talking about modless, the broadest canvas for builds we can make. The point of the game is to make builds and play with them, so the fact that anything can work to varying degrees depending on what’s brought and where it’s taken is part of that idea (and I know for a fact that not every combination will get you through the game completely modless and that for most ways to combine mods for builds and builds with loadouts, there’s gonna be a place where the player needs to fight and where in-mission balance and design comes into play, when it can get a chance to breath in the first place instead of someone expecting a level 60 mission to be designed around a build/loadout that sits way higher), as opposed to Steel Path

Edited November 14, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[ReddyDisco]

Ancient disruptor and Toxic Ancient used to be the bane of my existence during the melee meta but when guns became better and i started using them, they became a non issue. Just don't get in range to be hooked. 

[Hexerin]

36 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Ancient disruptor and Toxic Ancient used to be the bane of my existence during the melee meta but when guns became better and i started using them, they became a non issue. Just don't get in range to be hooked. 

The fact that you don't see the absurdity of your stance is just...

Edited November 14, 2023 by Hexerin

[ReddyDisco]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

The fact that you don't see the absurdity of your stance is just...

Facts might be absurd to some, those units are deadly in close range. shoot them from a distance, simple as that. You have to approach a problem from different angels until it's solved, not whine about it without trying other options.

[Hayrack]

Do they drain energy only by attacking? I swear to god, sometimes it feels like they and their imbued minions leave your reserves dry just by standing in proximity.

[(XBOX)Catch Plague]

The solution seems simple. Make them inflict magnetic with the attack. Remove the hitscan nature of their attack and improve the broadcasting of them being about to do it. More like eximi.

 

Other than ignoring the need for Primed Sure Footed meta which is another issue...

[Tiltskillet]

13 hours ago, Hayrack said:

Do they drain energy only by attacking? I swear to god, sometimes it feels like they and their imbued minions leave your reserves dry just by standing in proximity.

That's exactly what happens.  They have a magnetic proc that sometimes happens on their hook attack.  But in addition they have an aura that allows their own and allied melee attacks within 10m to drain energy based on damage dealt.  Which seems to be calculated before some invuln effects are taken into account.

[(PSN)rexis12]

'Just Kill Them before they hit you'

That's such a dumb response, that's such a "This game has no mechanical depth that the only response to things that are BLATANTLY overturned is to leverage that OUR damage is overturned" response.

'Just notice them'

Well, they have this cool thing where they can spawn behind doors and immediately launch an attack that buffers the door opening and hit you immediately. I know, because one time a Toxic Ancient spawned behind a door already winding up an attack and killed me the second it opened. That's fun right? That's fun gameplay mechanic and playing.

Or hey how about the fact that Ancients have no presence or special indication that they're there.

'But they glow purple!!!!'

A single cold proc colors them white, using Inferno obscures their whole body, Gloom adds an shadow haze over them, the #*!%ing HIGHLIGHT SYSTEM is so strong that it overpowers the color for EXIMUS units for god's sake.

Disruptors suck, the same reason that old Energy Eximus sucked. It's an unfair and punishing mechanic that leaves you with no room to actually interact with the game due to the fact that it does allow you actually notice until the effect happens.

The sheer fact that a hit from them doesn't blair out that I got hit from something that emptied my energy is stupid. And the only reason it hasn't been changed is because they're too distracted thinking of the pricing scheme for Pay To Skip old horrible content instead of trying to fix Old Horrible Content.

[Hexerin]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which seems to be calculated before some invuln effects are taken into account.

Those certain invulns you're referring to include things like Valkyr's Hysteria. The reason they still drain, is because those invulns aren't true invulns. Using Hysteria as an example, when you take damage from any source it is stored in a pool. Upon Hysteria ending, that pool is dealt to Valkyr as one single instance of damage (impact typing).

However, due to this storage mechanic, Valkyr is still technically taking damage. This is beneficial, because it allows her to use things like Arcane Avenger (which is absolutely godly on her). However, it also comes with downsides, like vulnerability to Ancient Disruptors (which completely drain her with one hit, always).

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Those certain invulns you're referring to include things like Valkyr's Hysteria.

Not only Hysteria, and I haven't forgotten about the other thread--I just didn't feel the need to get into it.  

For true invulns I was also talking about Sim invuln, Vazarin dash, Defy, and (I think) Rolling Guard.  The wiki also mentions Absorb, but I haven't tested that.  It seems plausible it's in the hypothetical Hysteria class anyway, since it tracks damage for an eventual explosion anyway.  OTOH Covenant, Iron Skin, and (I think) the initial invuln of Halo do protect against it, and they all track damage input in various ways too. 

The Hysteria theory in the other thread was just a very plausible and pleasing explanation I was venturing in any case, not something I was declaring a fact.  Even though it doesn't explain Vazarin, I still find it very plausible.  Even moreso now, since its damage storage is more literal, and so more similar to Defy and Absorb in that way than it is to those other abilities. 

Counterpoint: What the hell do I know?

AFAIC only  somebody at DE or a hacker could clear it up for sure...and I can't swear I'd have zero doubt about somebody at DE. :P

[AbyssalSerpent]

I don't know what's more annoying: the fact that in level 100+ missions that an Ancient Disruptor's unavoidable grapple attack insta-drains all your energy, or the fact that any Infested enemy with its aura that hits you can do the same in one hit.

[(PSN)rexis12]

4 hours ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

I don't know what's more annoying: the fact that in level 100+ missions that an Ancient Disruptor's unavoidable grapple attack insta-drains all your energy, or the fact that any Infested enemy with its aura that hits you can do the same in one hit.

Oh I know, a disruptor that gets corrupted with a void Fissue that also summons Grineer and Corpus who have hit scan weapons that insta drain your energy due to the aura.

Also another issue, that corrupted visuals completely obscure at a glance if it's a toxic, healing, or disruptor.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I have said this many times over the years. I don't care about the aura. It gives a Infested a threat to the player. I don't care about the hookshot. Having a gap closer forces players to pay more attention. BUT allow the hookshot to drain Energy on hit is the issue. Just make it so hookshot can never drain Energy. Players will be more happy. Less complaining. 

[Genitive]

1 hour ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

I have said this many times over the years. I don't care about the aura. It gives a Infested a threat to the player. I don't care about the hookshot. Having a gap closer forces players to pay more attention. BUT allow the hookshot to drain Energy on hit is the issue. Just make it so hookshot can never drain Energy. Players will be more happy. Less complaining. 

It's not only the hookshot. They drain energy with every attack except the one that knocks you down.

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2023-11-12 at 9:22 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m more wondering why it wouldn’t be the case. Having to temporarily make do without energy if you get hit isn’t exactly far removed from just… spamming abilities nonstop. 

The main issue I see with this design is that it immediately ends channeled survival abilities.  You can think you're invincible as Valkyr with your energy topped off, but a single poorly-telegraphed energy-draining attack can instantly remove all of your energy and thus immediately end your invincibility.

I'm not saying that can't be a mechanic, but the exact way it's implemented and feels right now seems like it needs to be reigned in.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

2 hours ago, Genitive said:

It's not only the hookshot. They drain energy with every attack except the one that knocks you down.

Infested are slow. They have a long windup for their attacks. How many times have you turn a corner to see an Infested to only be hit by the hookshot? Besides that, who the hell stands still when playing warframe?

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

The main issue I see with this design is that it immediately ends channeled survival abilities.  You can think you're invincible as Valkyr with your energy topped off, but a single poorly-telegraphed energy-draining attack can instantly remove all of your energy and thus immediately end your invincibility.

I'm not saying that can't be a mechanic, but the exact way it's implemented and feels right now seems like it needs to be reigned in.

It's not even just that. When she gets Hysteria stripped off her like that, she'll then also take the hit from the stored damage. That results in instant death, not just an empty energy pool. It's the biggest frustration I have with Ancient Disruptors, since Valkyr is my main frame (someday, Pablo will make Trinity great again... /copium).

All the other nullify effects in the game are either fixed zones (Nullifier Crewman, deployable bubbles from certain Corpus proxies, etc) or have a whole lot of limitations that make them at least mostly reasonable to avoid (Jackal stomp being incapable of hitting aerial targets, for example). Ancient Disruptors are just horrid design.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hexerin

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Infested are slow. They have a long windup for their attacks. How many times have you turn a corner to see an Infested to only be hit by the hookshot? Besides that, who the hell stands still when playing warframe?

The can buffer they're wind up, hell they can spawn mid wind up.

I know, a Toxic immediately hook shot my Gauss and killed him immediately the second the rounded a corner.

[(NSW)Greybones]

23 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

The main issue I see with this design is that it immediately ends channeled survival abilities.  You can think you're invincible as Valkyr with your energy topped off, but a single poorly-telegraphed energy-draining attack can instantly remove all of your energy and thus immediately end your invincibility.

I'm not saying that can't be a mechanic, but the exact way it's implemented and feels right now seems like it needs to be reigned in.

I’d be careful when jumping into a group of Infested as Valkyr then. It’s not like they make the ability unuseable, just requires more consideration for when and where to use it instead of throwing it on and keeping it on all the time. We’ve still got things like slides and rolls that can keep us near but successfully avoids the amount of hooks present in the standard spawnrate

I don’t think there’s something wrong with reminding players that death is there and, to paraphrase Dominus Ghaul from Destiny 2, they’ve just forgotten. We’ve got ways to counter the Disruptor who can mess us up pretty bad if we’re hit and if we’re relying almost exclusively on abilities (which is a choice in the standard game), and even then it’s kind of hard to not be able to get out of danger when our shields pop or our energy is gone

edit: They could make the sound more distinctive when the Disruptor drains all energy, or something along those lines that inform the player when to take one of the many actions available

Edited November 17, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Unstar]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’d be careful when jumping into a group of Infested as Valkyr then.

If the invincible frame needs to be on high alert for the full duration of any Infested level, in my opinion that means that something has gone mightily wrong in terms of design.

And again, not saying there can't be mechanics that drain Valkyr's energy or even pop her out of Hysteria; Nullifier bubbles are a great example of something that a Hysteria Valkyr needs to be aware of and approach with caution, making them a great example of how to do this right.  They're highly telegraphed and they're easy to either avoid entirely or take out through a variety of means.  It's hard to imagine unexpectedly finding yourself inside a Nullifier bubble unless you were being woefully careless; it's certainly never happened to me.

The Ancient hook is on the opposite end of the spectrum.  The animation is subtle and fast, taking less than a second between the wind-up and hitting you, with a range far greater than a Nullifier Bubble.  The attack can start even if enemies or objects are blocking your view of the Ancient, giving you less or no time to react.  All of these elements together lead to a hazard that players frequently won't be able to react to before it hits them.  Considering the hefty cost of receiving such an attack, something about it should definitely change.

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If the invincible frame needs to be on high alert for the full duration of any Infested level, in my opinion that means that something has gone mightily wrong in terms of design.

And again, not saying there can't be mechanics that drain Valkyr's energy or even pop her out of Hysteria; Nullifier bubbles are a great example of something that a Hysteria Valkyr needs to be aware of and approach with caution, making them a great example of how to do this right.  They're highly telegraphed and they're easy to either avoid entirely or take out through a variety of means.  It's hard to imagine unexpectedly finding yourself inside a Nullifier bubble unless you were being woefully careless; it's certainly never happened to me.

The Ancient hook is on the opposite end of the spectrum.  The animation is subtle and fast, taking less than a second between the wind-up and hitting you, with a range far greater than a Nullifier Bubble.  The attack can start even if enemies or objects are blocking your view of the Ancient, giving you less or no time to react.  All of these elements together lead to a hazard that players frequently won't be able to react to before it hits them.  Considering the hefty cost of receiving such an attack, something about it should definitely change.

Do not forget that you’re living on borrowed time while in Hysteria.

I’ve no problem with refinement for things like tells, but not to the extent that someone who thinks invincibility is a given would like; I’m of the idea that there should be threats in the first place

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Do not forget that you’re living on borrowed time while in Hysteria.

If you don't know how to build and/or play her, sure.

[(NSW)Greybones]

14 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

If you don't know how to build and/or play her, sure.

How ‘bout you stop getting hit by Disruptors

edit: Wait, why am I talking to you?

Edited November 18, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones