The addition of several Archon Shards has to come with an overhaul to the massive gating to earning them

[Voltage]

13 hours ago, Malikili said:

Those complaining about tauforged being time gated completely neglect the fact that it used to be so much worse before. It’s a guarantee at least, and it’s a hek of a lot better than beforehand. 
 

You don’t get everything you want immediately, sad how it took Warframe to tell you that. 

It was worse before, but the way it is now is still a bad deal. This is a real problem that people don't seem to care about. If I take $100 from you and give $20 back, I still took $80 from you. This kind of "we amended a bad idea with a poor solution so it's good now" mentality has happened with Regal Aya, Heirlooms, and it happened with Shards once already.

It's been pointed out time and time again in discussions. This is tolerable in the current state, but adding 3 more shard types is just adding to a terrible foundation of a system. 

It's not about entitlement to have something immediately, it's about having agency over your progress and a reasonable acquisition. Archon Shards are not earned in a way that represents a healthy way to earn an item, they're functionally a login reward. Even worse: everyone gets the same rewards with the same maximum progress, and said progress is purely a reflection of your account age, nothing more. That's flawed, it's broken, and it's been discussed since we first got them.

The "pity" system DE added made no correction to the rotting foundation Archon Shards stand on, and this planned expansion of the volume of Shards just shows why that system they added accomplished nothing of value for long-term health within Shards and using them. There's nothing wrong with adding more Shard types if players could farm them at their own pace. Unfortunately though, we're still stuck with a scheduled mission that provides no way for a player to farm them. Sacrificing your scarce inventory to try and "catch up" in luck is also a poor solution. 

The fundamental problem is that nobody can "farm" for Archon Shards, it's just a measure of whether you login once a week.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Voltage

[RichardKam]

3分钟前 , Voltage 说:

It's not about entitlement to have something immediately, it's about having agency over your progress and a reasonable acquisition. Archon Shards are not earned in a way that represents a healthy way to earn an item, they're functionally a login reward. Even worse: everyone gets the same rewards with the same maximum progress, and said progress is purely a reflection of your account age, nothing more. That's flawed, it's broken, and it's been discussed since we first got them.

Here we go again.

Yeah, it has been discussed since its introduction, and I do not know why the same argument was brought up again knowing that it had been resolved since last year.

Archon shard was never a problem people claimed to be. It was a non-problem. Given the powercreep, the margin of benefit provided by any archon shard was minimal. And in 2023 we have more powercreep on top of the powercreep in 2022, when we did not have incarnon lex and torid and Kullervo collective curse and all the crazy stuff. And in WITW update we will have even more powercreep as well, while the game was not made particularly more difficult since like 2021.

People moved on already. No one really care about archon shards except a handful of Tenno on this particular forum. You can't even see the have-a-tau-bless-tomorrow guy here. I have said it last year and I will say it again, it is entitlement. It is asking for the new shiny right now because I want it right now. Play the game and earn the reward. As simple as that. 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Yeah, it has been discussed since its introduction, and I do not know why the same argument was brought up again knowing that it had been resolved since last year.

Maybe it's because it wasn't actually resolved? One improvement to acquisition does nothing to address all of the other issues Shards have had since their addition, issues which will only be made more negatively impactful with these new additions.

[Hexerin]

4 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

Off topic, but I'm pretty sure the resource earned for bile in that mission is absymal as far as time investment compared to other bile resources.  900 is a huge helping for helminth, so I never farm that.  I also agree that mission is terrible, but that's subjective and most don't like it.  I'd rather stockpile the bile resources that require small time for a helping by comparison. 

Speaking of, is DE every going to "balance" the helminth system?  Since balance is something they claim to care about.  There's certain resources in every type that you will only use because they are so efficient and others you will never use because they are so inefficient.  Bile is more problematic because it doesn't have as many of those easy to stockpile resources and has a bunch of hilarious prime filet steak resources you'll never give.  Why can't Bile just be like any of the others, with proper balancing?  Nobody is throwing thermia at those things.

It's actually one of the stronger resources for bile (there's better options though). Good acquisition rate and you get a ton of other useful stuff while you're grinding it. The game mode is absolute trash though, so it's not worth it from a "fun" or "player sanity" standpoint.

[Lord_Drod]

4 hours ago, RichardKam said:

People moved on already. No one really care about archon shards except a handful of Tenno on this particular forum.

If that was actually true, there is no way they would be expanding them.  The main reason people ignore them is because of the bile cost and not having many tau's.  There's huge penalties for just experimenting around.  So if they are gonna expand, they should be more accessible, especially when fusing is being introduced, otherwise there's not much point to them.

56 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

it's actually one of the stronger resources for bile (there's better options though).

For me it seemed to be around 100 of those per minute or 10 mins per helping.  Even if its doubled at 900 every 5 mins, that's pretty poor.  I'd put it behind morphics, isos, ticor plate, argon, thermal sludge, navi coord, and voidgel orb.  If it does take 9-10 mins for 900 then its competing with orokin ciphers, which is more rewarding for a coinflip in game time.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Lord_Drod

[RichardKam]

24分钟前 , Lord_Drod 说:

If that was actually true, there is no way they would be expanding them.  The main reason people ignore them is because of the bile cost and not having many tau's.  There's huge penalties for just experimenting around.  So if they are gonna expand, they should be more accessible, especially when fusing is being introduced, otherwise there's not much point to them.

I mean people moved on from all these arguments surrounding the archon shards, not from the system.

[Hexerin]

22 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

For me it seemed to be around 100 of those per minute or 10 mins per helping.  Even if its doubled at 900 every 5 mins, that's pretty poor.  I'd put it behind morphics, isos, ticor plate, argon, thermal sludge, navi coord, and voidgel orb.  If it does take 9-10 mins for 900 then its competing with orokin ciphers, which is more rewarding for a coinflip in game time.

Responses via bullet points, cause meh:

• Morphics are a commonly used resource is many perpetual crafts (probably the biggest being forma), so not really relevant to this discussion as you don't want to use them if you can help it (and you can always help it).
• Ticor plate and isos are both from Railjack, which 99% of the playerbase hates, thus not a good comparison since most people won't have them in any quantity that is remotely relevant to usage. Also, Helminth asks for far, far too many of these per feeding.
• Voidgel orbs and thermal sludge are both some of the better ones I referenced. Both can be acquired in decent quantity for little effort, and Helminth doesn't ask for much per feeding. Voidgel orbs are significantly better than thermal sludge, if comparing the two. However, both can only be acquired from a single zone (Zariman and Orb Vallis, respectively), which is even more of an issue for thermal sludge due to Orb Vallis being a content island.
• Argon is the second best bile resource, as it's easy to acquire in large quantities, and Helminth asks for them nearly 1:1 with the drops (he wants 3, they drop 2 at a time).
• Nav coords are the single best bile resource, as you will always be swimming in thousands of them as they are an extremely common drop from literally every container in the game. The only issue is that you can't actually use them all, because of the "Helminth is a picky eater" nonsense.

[Lord_Drod]

40 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Responses via bullet points, cause meh:

• Morphics are a commonly used resource is many perpetual crafts (probably the biggest being forma), so not really relevant to this discussion as you don't want to use them if you can help it (and you can always help it).
• Ticor plate and isos are both from Railjack, which 99% of the playerbase hates, thus not a good comparison since most people won't have them in any quantity that is remotely relevant to usage. Also, Helminth asks for far, far too many of these per feeding.
• Voidgel orbs and thermal sludge are both some of the better ones I referenced. Both can be acquired in decent quantity for little effort, and Helminth doesn't ask for much per feeding. Voidgel orbs are significantly better than thermal sludge, if comparing the two. However, both can only be acquired from a single zone (Zariman and Orb Vallis, respectively), which is even more of an issue for thermal sludge due to Orb Vallis being a content island.
• Argon is the second best bile resource, as it's easy to acquire in large quantities, and Helminth asks for them nearly 1:1 with the drops (he wants 3, they drop 2 at a time).
• Nav coords are the single best bile resource, as you will always be swimming in thousands of them as they are an extremely common drop from literally every container in the game. The only issue is that you can't actually use them all, because of the "Helminth is a picky eater" nonsense.

Railjack all day over infested salvage, come on haha, can farm a lot of different things as opposed to salvage.   I have like 5k morphics so, and I'm pretty sure its easier to earn 40 of them than 900 infested salvage.  You can earn them in many missions doing something else.  So we basically agree. 

 

56 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

I mean people moved on from all these arguments surrounding the archon shards, not from the system.

Well these new shards I think open those discussions back up.

[Aruquae]

11 hours ago, Synitare said:

It should change. Telling people to stop complaining about it and just accept it isn't exactly the best way to go about realizing that change. Discussing it in the forums dedicated to the purpose of discussing things seems like a better idea to me, honestly.

Yes, the previous post was pointing out how some people are complaining simply because they can’t speedrun it

I’m pretty sure the reason the Devs made it a weekly boss is to cover the “content” that people have been wanting, along with some sort of “endgame” people have also been asking for. Putting that in air quotes because, you know, it’s Warframe.

Also wasn’t telling people to stop complain, complaints are good if they aren’t whines. I was pointing out the previously mentions above. 

9 hours ago, Voltage said:

It was worse before, but the way it is now is still a bad deal. This is a real problem that people don't seem to care about. If I take $100 from you and give $20 back, I still took $80 from you. This kind of "we amended a bad idea with a poor solution so it's good now" mentality has happened with Regal Aya, Heirlooms, and it happened with Shards once already.

It's been pointed out time and time again in discussions. This is tolerable in the current state, but adding 3 more shard types is just adding to a terrible foundation of a system. 

It's not about entitlement to have something immediately, it's about having agency over your progress and a reasonable acquisition. Archon Shards are not earned in a way that represents a healthy way to earn an item, they're functionally a login reward. Even worse: everyone gets the same rewards with the same maximum progress, and said progress is purely a reflection of your account age, nothing more. That's flawed, it's broken, and it's been discussed since we first got them.

The "pity" system DE added made no correction to the rotting foundation Archon Shards stand on, and this planned expansion of the volume of Shards just shows why that system they added accomplished nothing of value for long-term health within Shards and using them. There's nothing wrong with adding more Shard types if players could farm them at their own pace. Unfortunately though, we're still stuck with a scheduled mission that provides no way for a player to farm them. Sacrificing your scarce inventory to try and "catch up" in luck is also a poor solution. 

The fundamental problem is that nobody can "farm" for Archon Shards, it's just a measure of whether you login once a week.

You know, I should really reword the post shouldn’t I?

I get what your saying I’m simply (again) pointing out how it was worse before, but of course the “compromise” isn’t much better. 
This was when I was in my “Thanksgiving reflecting” period, bear with me, I was feeling sentimental and overly grateful. 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes? Why shouldn't I? They're the best ones and there's no reason to choose a regular over them.

Sure there are, if you dont need more than the stats from a normal there is no reason to use a Tau. If the cap requires 10% (or less) strength/duration there is no reason to use a 15% Tau.

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

To be clear, I think 5:1 fusion was a ridiculous suggestion at the time and still is even now, and that 2:1 was more than reasonable. That's the same 2:1 we're about to get with fused colors. Once we got drop protection 3:1 became pretty palatable too and should be even more acceptable with an additional weekly drop (or however much they add) from the upcoming content.

And again, there's no reason fusing wouldn't be optional. Is DE going to put a gun to your head and make you spend your regulars in a way you don't want? Just slot your regulars if you want to slot regulars. Or, like I said, with a proper system you could do things like split Taus back into regulars and have even more regulars if that's what you really want for whatever reason. There's no loss when you can convert back and forth as you like. You're not losing anything, and nothing is getting eaten.

There would still be the loss even if you can get it back incase fusion was inplace of the current system. Since you would lose 5 shards (or whichever number) when you wanted the guaranteed Tau. So you'd have less normals at that point to use on other frames. Which would also make the system far slower, since you would need to cover your stats that normals provide before actually getting anything out of a Tau obtained from fusion.

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Any amount of fusion is mathematically faster. It could be 1,000:1 and it's still be faster to acquire Taus with fusion than without. For example, right now it takes ~12.5 weeks on average to get 5 Taus of unspecified colors. With additional 3:1 Fusion it would take ~5.36 weeks to get 5 Taus of unspecified colors. Is a month of work a reasonable amount of time to kit out endgame items for one of the game's more than fifty frames? I think so. And as an added benefit, fusion also makes the whole thing drastically more fair since there's a much smaller difference in Tau acquisition rates between those with the most/average/least luck.

And you know you could just be patient and wait, right? If you don't want to unslot your regulars to upgrade them to Taus at a stat loss........... then don't? Wait until you have enough to upgrade one, take it out, upgrade it, and put it back in.

But you wouldnt kit them out in a month. As you say unspecificed colors. Just slapping Taus in a frame wouldnt be kitting them out since it would be the wrong colors.

And that would result in a much much slower system if you actually want to use the Tau you gain for stat improvements and not just use them "cos Tau".

Fusion instead of failsafe would result in weeks of either not being able to create a Tau to utilize or weeks of lower stats overall. For instance if we use the 3:1 fusion, at 5.36 weeks you'd sit at 15% strength with the Tau compared to keeping the normals for 30%. With the current failsafe system you'd have atleast 30% strength after the same amount of time, but it could also be higher without you having to sacrifice anything. Meaning you see fruit from your labor gradually as you progress. And the moment you get done with that frame, those normals also provide fruit from your labor as you can instantly hand them over to another frame as you start the shard progress on that one.

[kamisama85]

Once again, a non issue.

The people who are complaining about the time factor are usually players with the most time on their hands anyways. They will quietly keep farming their shards despite how much they complain on the surface. Players who can only play so often have the pity system to get them their shiny shard in due time. Seeing as how they aren't playing 24/7 to begin with, its unlikely that they functionally need every single frame they own to be a walking tao-shard Christmas tree, beyond loose bragging rights.

At the same time, its the irony that folks often complaining about being time-gated from their precious shards are also sometimes the people who are die-hard against the concept of rivens. Yet rivens are something you can roll 24/7 if the effort is put in while shards are not. How would these people not be complaining about shards the same way as rivens if they could infinitely farm them? Giving players unrestricted access would not quell these people's frustrations. It will just lead to the next wave of whatever frustrates them.

No consistency in some of the complaining.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, kamisama85 said:

Once again, a non issue.

The people who are complaining about the time factor are usually players with the most time on their hands anyways. They will quietly keep farming their shards despite how much they complain on the surface. Players who can only play so often have the pity system to get them their shiny shard in due time. Seeing as how they aren't playing 24/7 to begin with, its unlikely that they functionally need every single frame they own to be a walking tao-shard Christmas tree, beyond loose bragging rights.

At the same time, its the irony that folks often complaining about being time-gated from their precious shards are also sometimes the people who are die-hard against the concept of rivens. Yet rivens are something you can roll 24/7 if the effort is put in while shards are not. How would these people not be complaining about shards the same way as rivens if they could infinitely farm them? Giving players unrestricted access would not quell these people's frustrations. It will just lead to the next wave of whatever frustrates them.

No consistency in some of the complaining.

If you have 6 hours a day or 30 minutes a week, you still make the exact same progress with Shards as of now. The only way you don't earn Shards is if you're actually inactive in the game.

I have no idea why players can only view this topic in the extremes of "I get unlimited Tau" or "I have severe time-gating". There's a middle ground, and that's where most feedback leads to. The current way Shards are earned is equally unreasonable to asking for every Shard to be Tauforged and quickly earned. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Voltage

[RichardKam]

10小时前 , Voltage 说:

If you have 6 hours a day or 30 minutes a week, you still make the exact same progress with Shards as of now.

And what is the problem with that?

All these complaints about archon shard failed to establish a case against it. The RNG is poor. The acquisition rate is low. The hunt is time gated. I only have 10 tau shards after 100 weeks. Then what's the problem? 

People do not want to write it down black and white but let me do it for you guys. The "problem" is, people only want the better version aka tau forge archon shards with high acquisition rate without time gate so they can farm all day and night for it. 

And somehow, no one complaint about umbra forma which you have absolutely no control or agency in its acquisition.

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Sure there are, if you dont need more than the stats from a normal there is no reason to use a Tau. If the cap requires 10% (or less) strength/duration there is no reason to use a 15% Tau.

Of course there's a reason: more stats are more stats. My Protea doesn't "need" more Duration, but more Duration is still beneficial to have and there's no reason not to take it when it costs the exact same slot. Even if you're talking about breakpoints, no frame has breakpoints on every single one of their abilities. Seeking Shuriken might only "need" +43% Strength to fully strip Armor, but more Strength still gives it and Bladestorm more damage. Not to mention that using Taus means that you can free up more slots for other things. Instead of hitting Seeking Shuriken's breakpoint with 5 regulars, you can instead hit it with 3 Taus and have two more slots for Casting Speed or survivability or the new fused colors or whatever.

Taus are better than regulars in every way yet take up the same slots, so there's no reason to use a regular other than as a placeholder to be replaced by an eventual Tau sometime down the line.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There would still be the loss even if you can get it back incase fusion was inplace of the current system. Since you would lose 5 shards (or whichever number) when you wanted the guaranteed Tau. So you'd have less normals at that point to use on other frames. Which would also make the system far slower, since you would need to cover your stats that normals provide before actually getting anything out of a Tau obtained from fusion.

...

Fusion instead of failsafe would result in weeks of either not being able to create a Tau to utilize or weeks of lower stats overall.

Again, there's no "inplace of the current system". There's no "instead of failsafe". The two are not mutually exclusive. We're long past comparing the merits of each method. Both is what I'm talking about. Not one or the other, both.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you wouldnt kit them out in a month. As you say unspecificed colors. Just slapping Taus in a frame wouldnt be kitting them out since it would be the wrong colors.

And that would result in a much much slower system if you actually want to use the Tau you gain for stat improvements and not just use them "cos Tau".

Which would be solved entirely by mechanics like color cycling, but that's a bit besides the point. Unless you live in a timeline where 12.5 is actually less than 5.36, 5.36 weeks is not "much slower" than 12.5 weeks. 5.36 weeks is much faster than 12.5 weeks. If you're hyper-fixated on only one color, just multiply both figures by 3. The roughly 16 weeks it'd take to get 5 Red Taus would still be quite a bit faster than the 37.5-week average it takes to get 5 Red Taus now. And during that time you'd also get on average 5 Blue Taus and 5 Yellow Taus to use on other frames where those colors are "right", so it's not like it's actually slower. It might take 3 times longer, but you're also able to kit out 3 times more frames. It all averages out over time.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

For instance if we use the 3:1 fusion, at 5.36 weeks you'd sit at 15% strength with the Tau compared to keeping the normals for 30%. With the current failsafe system you'd have atleast 30% strength after the same amount of time, but it could also be higher without you having to sacrifice anything.

I still don't think you understand. There's no either/or. Both. The two of them together. At the same time. And it's 5.36 weeks for 5 Tau, not 1.

If you want to fixate on only one color, again just multiply by 3. After those now 16 weeks you'd have 5 Red, Blue, and Yellow Taus if you fused them up or 15 Red, Blue, and Yellow regulars if you broke them down or any valid combination in between that your little heart might desire. Meanwhile with the current system at the end of the same 16 weeks you'll have on average 2 Red, Blue, and Yellow Taus and 9 Red, Blue, and Yellow regulars. Not only is it slower for Taus, if you really, really want regulars for some bananas reason it's even slower for that too.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Meaning you see fruit from your labor gradually as you progress. And the moment you get done with that frame, those normals also provide fruit from your labor as you can instantly hand them over to another frame as you start the shard progress on that one.

Which is no different than if we had fusion as well. You'd still see the same "fruit from your labor" - in fact you'd see more:

Consider what we have now. The frame you're working on, your favorite ever, has 3 Red Taus and 2 Red regulars, and you have 1 Red regular sitting unused in your inventory. You get another Red regular. What will you use it for? Will you toss it on a frame you don't like as much or will you toss it in the pile with the others? Either way, your labors bear no fruit when it comes to the frame you're working on. You are fruitless.

Now consider 3:1 fusion. The frame you're working on, your favorite ever, has 3 Red Taus and 2 Red regulars, and you have 1 Red regular sitting unused in your inventory. You get another Red regular. Now you can take out 1 of your Red regulars, fuse it with your two spares, and reinstall your new Red Tau. Your favorite frame ever now has 4 Red Taus and 1 Red regular. Fruit. In two more weeks you'll have all 5 Taus done and that's a guarantee! Or, if for some reason you don't want to work on your favorite frame, you could instead do just what you were doing before and hand it down to a different frame instead. You can do the exact same thing you were doing before, but you can also do more.

Edited November 29, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, RichardKam said:

And what is the problem with that?

All these complaints about archon shard failed to establish a case against it. The RNG is poor. The acquisition rate is low. The hunt is time gated. I only have 10 tau shards after 100 weeks. Then what's the problem? 

People do not want to write it down black and white but let me do it for you guys. The "problem" is, people only want the better version aka tau forge archon shards with high acquisition rate without time gate so they can farm all day and night for it. 

And somehow, no one complaint about umbra forma which you have absolutely no control or agency in its acquisition.

The problem for you is that everyone else isn't the type of player that sits at a lower mastery rank intentionally and never cares to complete the games items. This is the end of the road of gear progression, and they're already accessible. Casual participation can still earn Shards reasonably alongside an improvement for those of us who enjoy grinding, even if for a long time, to earn these items. It's cool if you're in that boat, but it hardly applies to everyone. My feedback with Archon Shards has always been a compromise of where we are now and a way to progress our inventory into Tauforged. Like I said previously, it took me close to a year to reach 5 Tauforged Amber Shards for one singular Warframe. If I had to combine Shards, it would have been atleast 18 months. That't the worst type of progression, worse than Daily Login rewards.

I wouldn't mind if it takes 2 or 3 years to complete my inventory, but the fact of the matter is that it goes so slow that new Warframes add more grind before you even finish a previous Warframe. The Bile and Config lock situation makes this even more annoying.

Umbra Forma is not equivalent as it's only needed in extremely small amounts. It's also an item that is identical between all players, unlike Archon Shards from Hunts.

I think the "black and white fact" here is that you're unable to grasp the concept of playing the game outside of mediocrity. I'd bet that most players saying "this current system is fine" are also players who use a very small portion of the available Warframes and barely Forma'd the rest, if they even own them.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Voltage

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'd bet that most players saying "this current system is fine" are also players who use a very small portion of the available Warframes

I am one of those. I have all frames sans Grendel Prime, yet I only use Valkyr, Excalibur, Gauss, Gyre, Styanax, Wukong,  Garuda, Ember, Khora and Baruuk. I'm currently sitting on a bunch of unused shards as a result and I'd presume DE's internal metrics likely align with these numbers for the overwhelmingly vast majority of players and even industry-wide trends with large rosters such as fighting games.

It is what it is. A problem for power users is rarely (If ever) a concern for developers and/or the average player. It's hard to feel empathy over a concept that can be ultimately boiled down to "I want more" when taken to its extreme logical conclusion because historically and objectively more is never enough for some people, in turn leading to apathy and hostility towards any cause those players champion (The well has been poisoned).

Edited November 29, 2023 by Jarriaga

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , Voltage 说:

The problem for you is that everyone else isn't the type of player that sits at a lower mastery rank intentionally and never cares to complete the games items. This is the end of the road of gear progression, and they're already accessible. Casual participation can still earn Shards reasonably alongside an improvement for those of us who enjoy grinding, even if for a long time, to earn these items. It's cool if you're in that boat, but it hardly applies to everyone. My feedback with Archon Shards has always been a compromise of where we are now and a way to progress our inventory into Tauforged. Like I said previously, it took me close to a year to reach 5 Tauforged Amber Shards for one singular Warframe. If I had to combine Shards, it would have been atleast 18 months. That't the worst type of progression, worse than Daily Login rewards.

I wouldn't mind if it takes 2 or 3 years to complete my inventory, but the fact of the matter is that it goes so slow that new Warframes add more grind before you even finish a previous Warframe. The Bile and Config lock situation makes this even more annoying.

Thanks for confirming you are an entitled completionist who thinks that you are the centre of the game universe and your demands, reasonable or not, must be fulfilled otherwise the system is flawed.

3小时前 , Voltage 说:

Umbra Forma is not equivalent as it's only needed in extremely small amounts. It's also an item that is identical between all players, unlike Archon Shards from Hunts.

Oh suddenly you are not a completionist, how convenient! Even when the umbra forma is significantly more powerful than regular mods, even when it is even more impossible to "farm" umbra forma than archon shard, even when it gives people a significant advantage in their builds and progression, suddenly there is no need to spare 55 frames with 3 umbra each and every melee weapon with 2 umbra each because "it is not needed", and somehow tau forge shards are needed by every single frame in existence

See? It was never about archon shard. It was never about the system. It was always about "I want the new shiny" and trying to package the demand by some arbitrary reasons since 2022.

Edited November 29, 2023 by RichardKam

[Hexerin]

38 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Thanks for confirming you are an entitled completionist who thinks that you are the centre of the game universe and your demands, reasonable or not, must be fulfilled otherwise the system is flawed.

Oh suddenly you are not a completionist, how convenient! Even when the umbra forma is significantly more powerful than regular mods, even when it is even more impossible to "farm" umbra forma than archon shard, even when it gives people a significant advantage in their builds and progression, suddenly there is no need to spare 55 frames with 3 umbra each and every melee weapon with 2 umbra each because "it is not needed", and somehow tau forge shards are needed by every single frame in existence

See? It was never about archon shard. It was never about the system. It was always about "I want the new shiny" and trying to package the demand by some arbitrary reasons since 2022.

The fact that you don't realize that you're the problem here. My god dude, piss off with that attitude.

[RichardKam]

11分钟前 , Hexerin 说:

The fact that you don't realize that you're the problem here. My god dude, piss off with that attitude.

Your contribution to the discussion was well received. I am sure everyone will find this useful.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Of course there's a reason: more stats are more stats. My Protea doesn't "need" more Duration, but more Duration is still beneficial to have and there's no reason not to take it when it costs the exact same slot. Even if you're talking about breakpoints, no frame has breakpoints on every single one of their abilities. Seeking Shuriken might only "need" +43% Strength to fully strip Armor, but more Strength still gives it and Bladestorm more damage. Not to mention that using Taus means that you can free up more slots for other things. Instead of hitting Seeking Shuriken's breakpoint with 5 regulars, you can instead hit it with 3 Taus and have two more slots for Casting Speed or survivability or the new fused colors or whatever.

Taus are better than regulars in every way yet take up the same slots, so there's no reason to use a regular other than as a placeholder to be replaced by an eventual Tau sometime down the line.

I'm talking out of the PoV of fusing. Where fusing several shards to make a Tau for a frame that doesnt really benefit from the 50% increase to the stat is pointless. Since you consume potential breakpoint options for several other frames in the process. Something that doesnt happen with the current system since we only gain shards overtime, we never lose any. Eventually yes, every frame can get filled with Tau since there is no drawback to it. And as most times you oversimplify what is said, since you for some reason imply I mean all frames. Which is odd since in I've repeatedly refered to as Tau as upgrades as needed while also advocating the "free" use of Taus with the current system.

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Again, there's no "inplace of the current system". There's no "instead of failsafe". The two are not mutually exclusive. We're long past comparing the merits of each method. Both is what I'm talking about. Not one or the other, both.

Glad you cleared that part up since the post I initially answered to seemed to imply just fusion versus the current system.

 

 

 

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Thanks for confirming you are an entitled completionist who thinks that you are the centre of the game universe and your demands, reasonable or not, must be fulfilled otherwise the system is flawed.

You're completely misrepresenting my point. A completionist will absolutely need a longer time to finish something, often several times more than your average person. That's not something I have concerns for. My point was that in order to progress Archon Shards in any capacity, whether it be casually, or without skipping a beat like myself, you're still strangled in your acquisition in a way that doesn't give the player any possibility to "catch up" in missed weeks or put in some more effort to make more progress. This isn't a healthy type of game progression. It's the same reason I don't like seasons in games as their form of content.

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Oh suddenly you are not a completionist, how convenient! Even when the umbra forma is significantly more powerful than regular mods, even when it is even more impossible to "farm" umbra forma than archon shard, even when it gives people a significant advantage in their builds and progression, suddenly there is no need to spare 55 frames with 3 umbra each and every melee weapon with 2 umbra each because "it is not needed", and somehow tau forge shards are needed by every single frame in existence

See? It was never about archon shard. It was never about the system. It was always about "I want the new shiny" and trying to package the demand by some arbitrary reasons since 2022.

Umbra Forma is a false equivalence because of the opportunity cost of modding. Umbra Mods are powerful yes, but their usage in a build is dependent on the competing mods of the build. You can Umbra Forma every Warframe if you want, but you'll not only be limiting your builds on those Warframes, but likely making worse overall Forma settings. Archon Shards are a free opportunity cost. There is literally no downside to using a Shard. Archon Shards influence modding choices, but any modding choice has no impact on the restriction of Shards slotted. For this, there is absolutely no reason not to slot 5 Tauforged Shards if you have them available.

The fact you feel you "got me" with my statement on Umbra Mods being a different discussion entirely means you really lack the understanding of how builds work and why an Archon Shard is extremely powerful because it's a different slot entirely. It doesn't compete with Arcanes or Mods.

My point still stands that Archon Shards deserve a more fair acquisition so that even if progress is slow, the player still feels like they have agency over how they're earning power past a measly weekly login reward check. Players who start now are an entire year behind everyone else with no recourse whatsoever to catch up. It's unhealthy to keep it this way.

If I wanted to be a selfish and entitled player, I would be in your camp asking for things to remain the same, because I know I'll be active every week and I'll always have the maximum number of Archon Shards in my inventory compared to anyone else. However, this is simply not the case. I would like the system to receive changes that actually allows everyone, no matter what speed or frequency they play Warframe, to be given the same opportunity and progression that they can farm themselves in any amount, whether that be 30 minute sessions or multiple hours. It is up to DE how long they want content to stretch, and again, I don't mind if it takes me a long time in my position, but it shouldn't be a hot take to ask for that progress to be up to me, not a server timer.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Voltage

[Nobodys-Perfect]

4 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Thanks for confirming you are an entitled completionist who thinks that you are the centre of the game universe and your demands, reasonable or not, must be fulfilled otherwise the system is flawed.

Is it necessary to ignore valid arguments because you're under the delusion that setting a sisyphean task is okay? Completionist gameplay has been a fundamental focus of Warframe's mastery and build systems forever, and until archon shards I'd say it's even been relatively fair.

Are you sure you're not letting some prejudice borne out of jealousy cloud your judgement? Usually it's nice to try and be fair to both camps - those with lots of investment and time to commit, and those with relatively little.

You're basically predicating all of your arguments in "entitlement" and trying to paint any valid concerns raised as whining. Which would make you the one whining about whiners. If you want to respond to me, be earnest and answer the following question. If shards became trivially easy to obtain suddenly, how precisely does that spoil or diminish your experience?

I'm left wondering if you're someone who got lucky early on with tauforged RNG, finally feels like they're ahead of the curve on something, and is getting annoyed at the mere idea that their advantage will be lost if others can put more time in to progress their own goals instead of being stuck on this fixed schedule. The bitterness is palpable and not very pleasant.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nobodys-Perfect

[Qriist]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Players who start now are an entire year behind everyone else with no recourse whatsoever to catch up.

I don't view the overall time gating with the same disdain as you do, but I absolutely agree that the lack of a shard catchup mechanic hurts players in a way that nothing else in the game does.

I will say that, while I'm fine with DE drip-feeding shards as a barrier to progression across the total playerbase, there should be a "available past hunts" mission category that lets the player do the archon sorties of the weeks they have missed from release until now. This eventually puts everyone on the same footing with respect to the sortie rewards, shards and other items alike.

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, Nobodys-Perfect said:

If shards became trivially easy to obtain suddenly, how precisely does that spoil or diminish your experience?

DE are known to hand-down heavy nerfs to entire systems when powercreep runs rampant. That has happened so many times it is not debatable.

The more people get access to the top of the line, the higher the risk. Thus I am compelled to gatekeep and argue in favor of controlled/minimized powercreep just so other people don't get me nerfed. So yes: Abundant access to the top of the line directly diminishes my experience by causing nerfs.

If someone who started playing today can somehow farm 100 red tau by late December by virtue of making it "accessible and fair to farm at your pace" we'll see it happen to the entire Archon Shard system as well. This is not an "if" case if we go by history because the exact same doors that lead towards "fairness of acquisition" also leads to powercreep and system abuse until the door is closed via a heavy nerf.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Nobodys-Perfect]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

DE are known to hand-down heavy nerfs to entire systems when powercreep runs rampant. That has happened so many times it is not debatable.

The more people get access to the top of the line, the higher the risk. Thus I am compelled to gatekeep and argue in favor of controlled/minimized powercreep just so other people don't get me nerfed. So yes: Abundant access to the top of the line directly diminishes my experience by causing nerfs.

Thank you for the response. This certainly makes sense as one explanation for what I'm seeing with regards to the attitudes towards this. There's a signifigant amount to unpack in the fear of the nerf bat mentality but I'll forgo commenting on that and just wish everyone affected a speedy recovery. Bless. 😌 

Just for the record, I don't like power creep. I'd probably class archon shards as a pretty pure demonstration of needless creep. I'd have been happier if the system had never been implemented and I say this as someone using it regularly. Pandoras box has opened already though so we make do I guess.  

Will it get nerfed though? Based on the value of current shard buffs being roughly equivalent to maybe 1 and half mod slots in base stats I'm doubtful. Yet looking at the new PH effects? Corrosive stack increasing? Why that's something that was already nerfed out of corrosive naturally.  What could this possibly mean? 🤤

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nobodys-Perfect