Trinity, the next warframe rework? loki next Decoy Augment? And DE_Pablo saids

[Hexerin]

Gotta love seeing people who very clearly don't play Trinity, claim that she's "so strong" and "doesn't need a rework".

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Justo ahora, Hexerin dijo:

Gotta love seeing people who very clearly don't play Trinity, claim that she's "so strong" and "doesn't need a rework".

I don't know if the ppl in this post don't play it, but everyone has their point and tastes. Personally, i think today's Trinity is not a good warframe in general terms or within its own role. Each warframe that comes out in the next update far surpasses the older warframes, which is why the older ones need reworks.

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I don't know if the ppl in this post don't play it, but everyone has their point and tastes. Personally, i think today's Trinity is not a good warframe in general terms or within its own role. Each warframe that comes out in the next update far surpasses the older warframes, which is why the older ones need reworks.

Speaking as an actual Trinity player, she needs a rework like Hydroid got. Keep the overall kit, but just update it to modern standards. Especially her durations, like holy f- those durations are garbage.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

15 hours ago, Hexerin said:

You can't "find" a warframe rework, my guy. He's talking about something like an Easter egg, where you'll have to go out of your way to go find something that's going to tickle the fancy of lore buffs or something along those lines.

Yes but he's saying this before the update, not after, so you could "find out" early.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 minuto, Hexerin dijo:

Especially her durations, like holy f- those durations are garbage.

You are very right about that... but I think its duration makes some kind of sense, after all if so much damage reduction were 1 minute long it would be quite OP. An example of that would be Preserving Shell, which has a base duration of 25s at max rank but has a mechanic that increases the buff depending on the enemies you kill. However, blessing gives you all that resistance from the beginning, plus its real thing lies in to the healing and the shields it gives you. In any case, i think it would need a complete rework but leaving the same flavor.

[Xzorn]

I dunno. My proof is in my profile. Trinity lvl 300 old scaling, no deaths, no specters.
For comparison that's old 1.5million eHP or 900k Raw Vs Steel Path 40k eHP or 130k Raw.

Her animations are clunky but like I mentioned in my first post a single Archon Shard helps that. 30s Blessing, 40s Link.
If you happen to watch that video you'll see me casting both mid air/while gliding a lot. It's an old trick to make those stiff casts better.

By comparison to group mitigation buffs you got Gara at 90% which is amazing but near impossible to keep up on the team these days.

[Hexerin]

10 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

You are very right about that... but I think its duration makes some kind of sense, after all if so much damage reduction were 1 minute long it would be quite OP. An example of that would be Preserving Shell, which has a base duration of 25s at max rank but has a mechanic that increases the buff depending on the enemies you kill. However, blessing gives you all that resistance from the beginning, plus its real thing lies in to the healing and the shields it gives you. In any case, i think it would need a complete rework but leaving the same flavor.

Preserving Shell has 90% from the start, and stays at 90% so long as anyone in the squad is killing anything. It also has 25 second base duration (more than double Link), which means that duration mods give more than double the duration value (+10% duration on Link is only 1.2s, while it's 2.5s on Preserving Shell). Also, you can reactivate Preserving Shell while it's already active, which lets you refresh the duration (and set it back to its full 90% at will), whereas Link cannot be refreshed in any way.

Also, Link only has 75% reduction, on top of all its other weaknesses.

4 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I dunno. My proof is in my profile. Trinity lvl 300 old scaling, no deaths, no specters.
For comparison that's old 1.5million eHP or 900k Raw Vs Steel Path 40k eHP or 130k Raw.

Her animations are clunky but like I mentioned in my first post a single Archon Shard helps that. 30s Blessing, 40s Link.
If you happen to watch that video you'll see me casting both mid air/while gliding a lot. It's an old trick to make those stiff casts better.

By comparison to group mitigation buffs you got Gara at 90% which is amazing but near impossible to keep up on the team these days.

Getting used to it, doesn't make it good (nor acceptable). Take off the bias blinders and take an objective look at her.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Hexerin

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 minuto, Hexerin dijo:

Preserving Shell has 90% from the start, and stays at 90% so long as anyone in the squad is killing anything. It also has 25 second base duration (more than double Link), which means that duration mods give more than double the duration value (+10% duration on Link is only 1.2s, while it's 2.5s on Preserving Shell). Also, you can reactivate Preserving Shell while it's already active, which lets you refresh the duration (and set it back to its full 90% at will), whereas Link cannot be refreshed in any way.

Also, Link only has 75% reduction, on top of all its other weaknesses.

It's all the fault of the old mechanics, I'm just saying that what it is has its logic for the time it was released. I'm sorry, sometimes I don't know how to express myself in English since it's not my first language.

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Getting used to it, doesn't make it good (nor acceptable). Take off the bias blinders and take an objective look at her.

 

Well, other than the clunky casting and Well of Life being an instant Helmith. What's wrong with her?
She's got easy mitigation, easy energy, okay armor strip.

If you're just saying they need to update her casting. I'm all for that. I just don't see anything glaringly wrong with her kit.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Just now, Xzorn said:

 

Well, other than the clunky casting and Well of Life being an instant Helmith. What's wrong with her?
She's got easy mitigation, easy energy, okay armor strip.

If you're just saying they need to update her casting. I'm all for that. I just don't see anything glaringly wrong with her kit.

I have to agree here.

Trinity's kit is pretty okay as it is, except for the horrendously short ability duration and somewhat user unfriendly manual targeting of her single target abilities. Both can be solved rather easily without a need for a full rework.

[Hexerin]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Well, other than the clunky casting and Well of Life being an instant Helmith. What's wrong with her?
She's got easy mitigation, easy energy, okay armor strip.

If you're just saying they need to update her casting. I'm all for that. I just don't see anything glaringly wrong with her kit.

• Increase durations to modern standards
  • Well of Life to 30s
  • Energy Vampire is fine as is
  • Link to 25s, but ideally to 30s
  • Blessing duration removed (elaborated below)
• Tweak abilities to match modern standards
  • Well of Life
    • Remove lifesteal
    • Update healing to %maxHP for consistency
    • Impose healing cap on Defense objectives
      • Yes, her unique ability to bypass the Defense objective healing cap is amusing, but it's not healthy for the game
  • Energy Vampire
    • Make pulses happen every 3 seconds, fixed rate
      • Modding positive duration no longer punishes the player
      • Changes nothing about the ability at baseline
        • Still an initial pulse on cast, then three pulses over 9 second duration
  • Link
    • Increase redirection percentage cap to 90%, from the current 75%
    • Make tether quantity scale with ability strength
      • Reduce tether opacity to mitigate onscreen noise (Shield Osprey are a decent example for what it should be like)
    • Can now be cast while active to refresh duration, like other damage mitigation tools
      • Has downtime during the cast animation like them as well, for consistency
  • Blessing
    • Remove damage reduction effect (hence why duration was removed above)
      • Shield gating is a thing now, so the damage reduction effect is no longer needed
        • Sorry Inaros and Nidus, but ya'll have other tools to capitalize on my Blessings so it's fine

Congrats, Trinity is now properly standing proud side by side with everyone else, rather than being a clunky mess that hobbles along behind them.

[ShogunGunshow]

I have a meme build with Trinity using high strength 13% duration and utilizes Energy Vampire's True Damage to either completely nuke whole groups in a tick or shreds enemies into dirt to feed me absurd amounts of shields and energy in short order. (This works on zariman angels and even disruption targets for near instant death.)

Don't touch my Energy Vampire's duration-based pulses! 😉

As for my personal preferences I just don't think her Link skill should have a target limit period. Target limits are silly in modern Warframe. It doesn't need more damage mitigation in that case, because it already has an augment that lets you strip 100% of armor, and baking 90% DR and a full armor strip into the same skill is frankly silly even for Warframe.

Blessing is fine as-is. It doesn't need a nerf.

Trinity shows her age a little, but she still has things she can do. She's incredibly tanky when you have your buffs running, and has access to several playstyles that, while not meta, are at least functional. Hydroid was basically unsalvageable, so a rework on him was needed - but I really would dislike it if Pablo came in and gave Trinity the same treatment he's been giving basically every frame he's touched lately. They've been powerful, but they've also been kinda samey.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

19 hours ago, trst said:

If a rework was planned then there'd be an announcement/workshop post about it like they do with all other reworks. No reason for them to make such a thing a secret.

Also news of a Decoy augment is genuinely depressing. Loki absolutely needs to be on a list of planned update/reworks alongside Trinity. And if they're bothering to make another augment for it then odds are a rework isn't planned any time soon.

not even a rework, literally make his 1 invulnerable and he will be 1000x better as an early game frame. Like his 3 is kinda hard to fix but at least there's an augment that makes it okish.

Edited December 9, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 6 horas, ShogunGunshow dijo:

I have a meme build with Trinity using high strength 13% duration and utilizes Energy Vampire's True Damage to either completely nuke whole groups in a tick or shreds enemies into dirt to feed me absurd amounts of shields and energy in short order. (This works on zariman angels and even disruption targets for near instant death.)

Don't touch my Energy Vampire's duration-based pulses! 😉

As for my personal preferences I just don't think her Link skill should have a target limit period. Target limits are silly in modern Warframe. It doesn't need more damage mitigation in that case, because it already has an augment that lets you strip 100% of armor, and baking 90% DR and a full armor strip into the same skill is frankly silly even for Warframe.

Blessing is fine as-is. It doesn't need a nerf.

Trinity shows her age a little, but she still has things she can do. She's incredibly tanky when you have your buffs running, and has access to several playstyles that, while not meta, are at least functional. Hydroid was basically unsalvageable, so a rework on him was needed - but I really would dislike it if Pablo came in and gave Trinity the same treatment he's been giving basically every frame he's touched lately. They've been powerful, but they've also been kinda samey.

I've already tried a similar build with 300% ability strength and well although it is fun to see, in practice it is really a meme like u said.

Edited December 10, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I have a meme build with Trinity using high strength 13% duration and utilizes Energy Vampire's True Damage to either completely nuke whole groups in a tick or shreds enemies into dirt to feed me absurd amounts of shields and energy in short order. (This works on zariman angels and even disruption targets for near instant death.)

Don't touch my Energy Vampire's duration-based pulses! 😉

As for my personal preferences I just don't think her Link skill should have a target limit period. Target limits are silly in modern Warframe. It doesn't need more damage mitigation in that case, because it already has an augment that lets you strip 100% of armor, and baking 90% DR and a full armor strip into the same skill is frankly silly even for Warframe.

Blessing is fine as-is. It doesn't need a nerf.

Trinity shows her age a little, but she still has things she can do. She's incredibly tanky when you have your buffs running, and has access to several playstyles that, while not meta, are at least functional. Hydroid was basically unsalvageable, so a rework on him was needed - but I really would dislike it if Pablo came in and gave Trinity the same treatment he's been giving basically every frame he's touched lately. They've been powerful, but they've also been kinda samey.

EV Trin is quite fun and amusing, but it's also blatantly unhealthy for the game. There's a very good reason that DE tried multiple times to kill it off.

Link needs a target limit because of what it is, you'd have to just straight up give her a completely new ability to do away with it.

You aren't getting that armor strip for free, you're sacrificing a valuable mod slot for it (and her augment doesn't give her any actual stats, it's just the armor strip). You also don't get 100% armor strip for free, you have to build for it.

Blessing isn't being nerfed, its DR is being shifted over to Link to bring Trin's DR to modern standard (90%). Blessing doesn't need the DR, because it already gives the entire team potentially up to 2.5 seconds of invulnerability (or a bit more in Hildryn's case) every time you press it.

You need to learn basic game design and balance before you enter this ring, my guy. Trinity needs a rework, that is objective fact that cannot be argued.

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, Hexerin said:

• Increase durations to modern standards
  • Well of Life to 30s
  • Energy Vampire is fine as is
  • Link to 25s, but ideally to 30s
  • Blessing duration removed (elaborated below)

 

To be honest I wouldn't play this frame. It's just generic 90% self DR with no offense or CC of note. Kullervo and Valkyr + Helmith exceed this and are exceptional melee frames. Chroma can just do it all and far surpasses. Gara can do it with high close range AoE damage and CC. Nidus has all that and much more.. Ever Link Nidus to a Banshee? Holy crap. At this point in the game. Blessing is her group value. EV is fine but most don't need it.

The things I'd change is make Well of Life an HP/Shield pulse buff with no immortal and change Link to a one hand cast while increasing number of targets.
That's kinda all she needs.

[Hexerin]

13 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

To be honest I wouldn't play this frame.

So you wouldn't play Trinity. Because literally nothing in that changes what Trinity is or does.

[ShogunGunshow]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

EV Trin is quite fun and amusing, but it's also blatantly unhealthy for the game. There's a very good reason that DE tried multiple times to kill it off.

Yeah, just like Revenant is totally unhealthy for the game. And the incarnon torid. Or any of dozens of other things this game has that are fundamentally busted, because Warframe is not balanced at all and hasn't been for almost its entire life. You are probably right, though, that this will only survive up to the moment that DE makes the mistake of allowing some actually relevant content be affected by Warframe abilities.

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Link needs a target limit because of what it is, you'd have to just straight up give her a completely new ability to do away with it.

There is nothing fundamental about Link that would stop it from working like it does now if it just didn't have a target limit, and linked Trinity to all enemies in range of the ability instead of 3, or 3 + abilitystrength.  It would just be more convenient, and allow you to make more consistent use of the augment.

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Blessing isn't being nerfed, its DR is being shifted over to Link to bring Trin's DR to modern standard (90%). Blessing doesn't need the DR, because it already gives the entire team potentially up to 2.5 seconds of invulnerability (or a bit more in Hildryn's case) every time you press it.

That is objectively a mathematical nerf for the sake of QoL. 90% DR from Link and just health/shield restore on Blessing vs. the current potential 93.75% DR with Link+Bless that also keeps 75% DR to the team on top of the restore. Considering Trinity's classically been a 'support' Warframe - though that, in more modern times, has meant 'help team kill more stuff faster' more than keeping your team alive - that doesn't seem like a very good trade-off. This is double true if you adjust those durations up to better levels baseline, so that the most annoying part of the abilities (having to recast them frequently without high investment in duration) is reduced substantially. Shorting the team +300% EHP so that Trinity can have modestly better QoL is absolutely not a trade I would make. 

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

You need to learn basic game design and balance before you enter this ring, my guy. Trinity needs a rework, that is objective fact that cannot be argued.

Edited December 10, 2023 by ShogunGunshow

[Xzorn]

49 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

So you wouldn't play Trinity. Because literally nothing in that changes what Trinity is or does.

 

You removed her affinity range group mitigation.

The restore of the skill isn't why it's good. That's why I mentioned laughing at the Blessing augment.
It would only function in very niche conditions if you're playing Trinity right.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Invulnerability is mitigation. If you can't even understand something so obvious and basic, you aren't worth discussing with further.

 

No I'd just rather play the game instead of Shield Gate the mini-game.

You're talking about bad designs for the health of the game. Shield Gate Immortal is very much that.
Shields worked fine 9 years ago. We went from 7k eHP frames to 300k+. It got screwed up because of bad designs.

[SteveCutler]

Trinity doesn't need any rework. She's a fantastic frame. Extremely tanky and with exceptional abilities. All she needs is a duration buff on her abilities, and maybe Champion's Blessing could do with some tweaks.

The rework will obviously be for Inaros. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Invulnerability is mitigation. If you can't even understand something so obvious and basic, you aren't worth discussing with further.

I mean this is a most ass backwards way of thinking. The main issue for Trinity atm is duration, yet for some reason you want to effectively put even more weight on recasting a skill since you are practically reducing the duration of Blessing to 2.5 seconds by making it just restore and not provide a lasting DR buff.

Not to mention you seem to ignore that the DR from Link and Blessing stacks. So switching to 90% on link would be a nerf, since a hit for 1000 would suddenly deal 100 damage instead of 63, which is quite a big nerf to survival.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Oh? 

Mods are coming with combined elements.

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

She does need some kind of a rework. I enjoy playing MFD EV with the duration tanked (it makes whiffing casts a lot more forgiving given you have to aim two of them and primer). It sucks I can’t utilize link at all because of that and if I choose to build duration I’m a lot more tanky but punished extremely hard for whiffing any of those casts.

So I build for shield gating and have a literally useless ability (link) as it lasts about 1 second.

Something has got to change here.

Edited December 12, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[Tiltskillet]

I didn't even notice the Pablo spoiler in the OP about Loki getting a new(?) Decoy augment.  Three augments for one very, very bad ability, what a world we live in.