Remove "Kahl Go Fast" challenge from Prison Break

[Voltage]

This isn't about the speed. I can finish the mission in under 15 minutes. There are two fundamental issues with this challenge that prevent it from being suitable for this challenge, and only one is fixable:

1. Sneaky Sabotage counts mission complete after the Scyto Raknoid is killed. Junk Run counts mission complete after the Tusk Thumper is killed. However, in Prison Break, the mission is not count as completed after the Wolf of Saturn Six is defeated. In the other two Break Narmer missions, this allows you to rush the objective for the timer, and then backtrack for the other challenges after the "boss" is defeated. Prison Break requires you to extract to stop the timer. This leaves no room for doing challenges outside of the mission path (such as collectibles).
   • I can only check a few side rooms before cutting it close to 15 minutes, and the Prison Break map is by far the largest.
2. Backtracking. Sneaky Sabotage and Junk Run are setup in a way where the player can backtrack at any time, even after the bosses are killed. Prison Break does not have this map design as it contains the Grattler vs. Fighters scene that teleports you to a new section of the map. This means that it is physically impossible to backtrack even if the issue above was resolved. Fixing this would require reworking the map, and I'm just being realistic in saying that it would be easier to just remove this challenge from the pool.

Hopefully this can get acknowledged because it's pretty annoying, especially for content that isn't seeing any improvement to the Garrison Wares to make it feel "up to date" with the updates to Archon Shards.

Edited January 1 by Voltage

[sunderthefirmament]

23 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This isn't about the speed. I can finish the mission in under 15 minutes. There are two fundamental issues with this challenge that prevent it from being suitable for this challenge, and only one is fixable:

1. Sneaky Sabotage counts mission complete after the Scyto Raknoid is killed. Junk Run counts mission complete after the Tusk Thumper is killed. However, in Prison Break, the mission is not count as completed after the Wolf of Saturn Six is defeated. In the other two Break Narmer missions, this allows you to rush the objective for the timer, and then backtrack for the other challenges after the "boss" is defeated. Prison Break requires you to extract to stop the timer. This leaves no room for doing other challenges.
   • I can only check a few side rooms before cutting it close to 15 minutes, and the Prison Break map is by far the largest.
2. Backtracking. Sneaky Sabotage and Junk Run are setup in a way where the player can backtrack at any time, even after the bosses are killed. Prison Break does not have this map design as it contains the Grattler vs. Fighters scene that teleports you to a new section of the map. This means that it is physically impossible to backtrack even if the issue above was resolved. Fixing this would require reworking the map, and I'm just being realistic in saying that it would be easier to just remove this challenge from the pool.

Hopefully this can get acknowledged because it's pretty annoying, especially for content that isn't seeing any improvement to the Garrison Wares to make it feel "up to date" with the updates to Archon Shards.

I would also add a third point: dependence on AI.  This mission forces you to depend on your brothers to hold points for you and bomb objectives to a degree unmatched by Junk Run (and Sneaky Sabotage doesn't even have brothers).  The AI is notoriously unreliable at pathing.  You have to know how to exploit it to complete this challenge safely.

 

Your first two points are enough to warrant changes though.  Let's hope DE notices and acts on them. 

 

_{And honestly, the only "improvement to the Garrison Wares" that I would like to see is another Chipper dialog option that lets us buy our weekly stock for starchart resources and credits, like with Ticker.  It could be locked behind rank 5.  After that, we've seen all that Kahl has to offer.  But I digress.}

[Voltage]

29 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I would also add a third point: dependence on AI.  This mission forces you to depend on your brothers to hold points for you and bomb objectives to a degree unmatched by Junk Run (and Sneaky Sabotage doesn't even have brothers).  The AI is notoriously unreliable at pathing.  You have to know how to exploit it to complete this challenge safely.

While relying on AI (and RNG to degree as well) is certainly a point, it only ever adds a couple seconds to the entire mission. I certainly know what you're getting at, but the point of my thread is to outline fundamental mission designs that cannot be fixed to make this challenge work. Even if you counted Wolf defeat as mission completion and had the brothers instantly teleport to bomb locations or zone defense, you still have a map design that actively removes backtracking, especially under time constraints.

Edited January 1 by Voltage

[2old4gamez]

30 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

_{And honestly, the only "improvement to the Garrison Wares" that I would like to see is another Chipper dialog option that lets us buy our weekly stock for starchart resources and credits, like with Ticker.  It could be locked behind rank 5.  After that, we've seen all that Kahl has to offer.  But I digress.}

This!

Once you've run the available missions multiple they just become a chore rather than a challenge. I've paid my dues to Kahl, now just let me farm\buy stock elsewhere for Chipper.

 

[BR31]

Better off not using bandaids like this remove challenge.

But address the main issue- prison break takes 2x as long as other kahl missions.
Split prison break into 2 weeks worth of missions- before and after the ship with turrets, when
you switch tiles.

So it would be 4 missions cycle- sneaky sabotage, junk run, prison break (murex pt 1), wolf countdown (murex pt 2).

[Tesla_Reloaded]

6 минут назад, BR31 сказал:

Split prison break into 2 weeks worth of missions- before and after the ship with turrets, when
you switch tiles.

That'd be even worse. Prison Break is already the most annoying and boring mission of Kahl's garrison. Doing it 2 weeks in a row (even in parts) would be awful.

The most balanced solution would be to change the time limit from 15 to 20 minutes.

But ideally the whole mission needs to be reworked. This "mobile defense" element repeating 5 times during the mission is what makes Prison Break horrible. It should be reworked or at least simplified.

[Voltage]

10 hours ago, BR31 said:

Better off not using bandaids like this remove challenge.

But address the main issue- prison break takes 2x as long as other kahl missions.
Split prison break into 2 weeks worth of missions- before and after the ship with turrets, when
you switch tiles.

So it would be 4 missions cycle- sneaky sabotage, junk run, prison break (murex pt 1), wolf countdown (murex pt 2).

There's a fine line between a bandaid and making the least resource intensive change to fix an issue. The bandaid in this scenario would be making the timer stop after the Wolf is defeated. The real solution is allowing players to backtrack after the ship portion. The middle ground is removing this one challenge for this mission.

[Gorgamungus]

I'd prefer the devs remove the 'Kahl Go Fast' challenge entirely from Kahl's missions. Giving us two conflicting challenges (Speed and Collection Challenges) at the same time usually will require most players to re-run the mission again if they want all their Stock for the week. As a player who's been playing Kahl's missions every week since they came out, it's more of a weekly chore at this point, and I'd rather not re-run it twice a week.

[Qriist]

12 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I would also add a third point: dependence on AI.  This mission forces you to depend on your brothers to hold points for you and bomb objectives to a degree unmatched by Junk Run (and Sneaky Sabotage doesn't even have brothers).  The AI is notoriously unreliable at pathing.  You have to know how to exploit it to complete this challenge safely.

I was not aware people were struggling with this.

Move Kahl to the first marked location, then use command mode pointed at your feet. Your rescued teammates will get there well before the second point opens up. Leave them there and go hold the new point. Rinse and repeat.

[Harutomata]

The ridiculous part is that even if backtracking was possible, the sentient ship kahl weekly doesn't stop the timer on "kahl go fast" after you defeat the boss at the end.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

You could also just choose to skip that challenge. The extra 10 stock found throughout the level almost makes up for the loss of stock from the challenge. 

[Lockhart77]

On 2024-01-06 at 12:21 AM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

You could also just choose to skip that challenge. The extra 10 stock found throughout the level almost makes up for the loss of stock from the challenge. 

So effectively the same argument as removing the challenge then? But it punishes the player?

[Harutomata]

When I saw the "Kahl Go Fast" disgrace of a challenge on Prison Break again, I was like "Kahl Go Fast" has to go. Even if it's just for this mission type.
I did finish it in 14m50s, so I did get to see a perfect reward screen for Prison Break, but if there was even 1 more treasure hunt challenge, or having to fight Ven'kra Tel, it would have been literally impossible to achieve that in one run. I think the timer actually was at a lower time, but it kept ticking while the cinematic was playing. It should stop ticking right after the boss is defeated, otherwise going back for challenges is even more problematic. It's already problematic because there's no way to go back to the first half of the map.
I can't believe people are still defending this. For the "just skip the challenge" or "it's ok to not complete all challenges" people, you're here to be counterproductive and didn't discard any of our constructive critiques with your "arguments".
It's not even a skill check. The mobile defense parts are unaffected by your performance, so is the ship part. It could be a bit more of that if for example defeating enemies made the time shorter to release Kahl's allies.
(Not exactly on topic, but Ven'kra Tel is actually skippable when you go into that part of the tileset for treasure hunt challenges if you don't interact with the Avex. Why is the Sprag fight not designed the same way? We shouldn't have to be fighting her just for the treasure hunt, especially if fighting her isn't even a challenge at a time.)

I definitely sound more salty about this than I actually am, but I don't know what else to say to get the point across. :v
We're going to be doing this mission every week basically, it should be in everyone's favor the improve it. Especially for the players who just unlocked Veilbreaker and for them every Stock drop matters more than it does for most of us. Also think of those players before saying silly self centered things.

[VasjaTheOx]

i agree, the 15min in prison break is impossible to achive.

atleast for me, and it breaks the game for me. I like to take my time and check everything, and i do enjoy Khalls gameplay.

DE Should add new scenarios, and improve on the old ones, ad finaly add cumulative stocks, so every time we restart the mission, we can find new stocks around.

[abYsmalGeezer]

Apart from me hating "Go fast"-challenge entirely it is just insane here. I can barely do it under 15 with ignoring everything else that can be ignored to get to the end and done with the boss. If you get the wonderful mini-boss too it isn't viable for a single run. Backtracking ok but i think running around half the map again is already weird.

[AzurielV]

Please DE just remove the Kahl Go Fast mission. It's just stressing me out to rush things out when I just want to enjoy the game at my own pace. I just want to collect stocks and explore in peace without worrying the timer. Aside from the AI being clunky when ordered to do anything, the Prison break is just annoying when the triangulation is so slow and add in the timer it's just annoying. Please De just remove the Kahl Go Fast mission