Melee duplicate got me thinking about ranged weapons

[0_The_F00l]

So for those that are unaware there is an arcane called melee duplicate

It has an interesting effect , it effectively adds multishot to your melee on a regular (yellow) crit , 

This means that if you have orange or red crits ,  you don't benefit from it at all. That's one of the reasons why I am not too bothered by it being so rare.

That got me thinking , maybe that's one of the ways we could curb some of the power creep we have.

Maybe not something as extreme as becoming nearly useless. But what if any special effects (like DoT status procs and multishot) are limited to base crit multipliers and only the main damage gets the additional multipliers of reaching higher crit tiers.

Yes , it's technically a nerf but it should only affect extremely broken loadouts and not affect moderate ones.

Edit : For additional  clarity, it would not reduce the chance to proc any status , it would only affect how powerful the proc is (by virtue of crit multipliers) . Right now a status proc tic on orange crit is a lot more powerful than on yellow crits. I am saying if a weapon does get an orange crit , it's status tics would be only as powerful as a yellow crit and not orange crit. The direct damage would be unaffected.

For example:

Base damage : 100

crit multiplier : 2

Yellow crit damage: 200

orange crit damage: 400,

If a DoT is procced ,

Yellow crit proc : based on 200 damage ,

Orange crit proc : also based on 200 damage.

Edited January 26 by 0_The_F00l

[SneakyErvin]

While an interesting idea I'm not sure it would work on ranged. And that is because we cant mod ranged weapons to have innate multishot or forced procs, which is something we can do on melee. It would also completely destroy low crit weapons that are ment as status weapons since they wouldnt be able to trigger what they are designed for. At which point those low crit and high status weapons would need to be remade into crit weapons where we then decide if we want to utilize multishot or status (or a mix of both) through criticals.

Duplicate works on melee currently since they can access multihits innately through stances or fully utilize what they are built for otherwise, like their status, both natural and forced through stances.

They could go down the path of Duplicate with ranged if they simply tie it to low crit and potentially low status on a similar arcane. But instead of regular multishot it would simply double your modded shots. That way you'd trade either crit or status in your modding along with crit/crit damage/base damage/multishot etc. in the arcane for a chance to deal 2x damage when you apply a single status or yellow crit. Would go hand in hand with melee where we currently trade another arcane effect aswell as lower modded crit for a chance to effectively deal twice the modded damage with a melee hit.

I still havent tested Dupes full interaction, if the extra attack can produce another extra attack if it also yellow crits, or it it has a seperate status chance, forces an additional forced proc and so on aswell.

Edited January 24 by SneakyErvin

[KitMeHarder]

40 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But what if any special effects are limited to base crit

Incentivizing players to have purposefully sh*tty builds is not a good thing.

So not only is this backwards in a game about progression, but higher stats doesn't equal a stronger weapon. The Lenz has way more crit chance than the Bramma, yet the Lenz needs the buff more. Same thing with Duplicate, some of the strongest melees like the Innodem use it way better than something like the frickin' Helicor.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

If I am understanding correctly what you are suggesting, you would like to limit the effect of certain mods & arcanes on weapons to only work on regular crits?
You'll need to expand a bit more on that "only the main damage gets the additional multipliers" though if I am also getting it right, that'd mean that multishot hits wouldn't get "additional multipliers" which I presume you mean things like bonus headshot multipliers like the ones granted by Deadhead & Target acquired, and additional critical multipliers like the ones provided by vital sense and so on?

If this is the case... well you just kinda destroyed a lot of crit-based guns and most of the better ones the game has to offer?

Melee Duplicate offers a logical solution to a common problem, albeit in the form of an exaggeratedly grindy to obtain item;
If a weapon cannot achieve higher tiers of crit and therefore way bigger critical multipliers, allow it to hit twice where others do once but harder.
This means two times the chances to proc statuses, crits, among other things.

Nerfing in the way you suggest, with the aim for the more OP weapons, would also affect a ton of others that aren't close to be as good.
Creating augments, special mods or arcanes that can benefit more weapons & provide diverse builds, like Primary Frostbite / Blight or others did, is a much more reasonable approach, but ultimately I don't think Duplicate will succeed given the fact that most good melees already surpass 100% crit chance with the mods we have, and with as much damage as we can gain, its effect will simply not matter.

The few weapons that can end up making reliable use of it just won't be enough.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Snip

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Snip

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Snip

Added clarity to OP of what I mean.

[UnstarPrime]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It has an interesting effect , it effectively adds multishot to your melee on a regular (yellow) crit , 

This means that if you have orange or red crits ,  you don't benefit from it at all.

Has this interpretation of the functionality been thoroughly tested?  Because my interpretation of "Base Critical Hits" was "Critical Hits that are not 'second strikes'".  I know not many people have access to these arcanes at present, so has someone presented evidence demonstrating that yellow crits are duplicated and orange/red crits are not?

On Base Critical Hits
100% chance for your attack to strike a second time

[KitMeHarder]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am saying if a weapon does get an orange crit , it's status tics would be only as powerful as a yellow crit and not orange crit.

It's still backwards logic. Why would I care about building more crit then? Why would I not just add more base damage, faction damage, etc... You'd still end up with much more damage than the previous "yellow crit proc" and all you did was make the system extremely convoluted.

If DE didn't want orange crits to do more damage, they would have capped crit chance at 100%. There's no reason to have crit tiers if all it does is make things not make sense.

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's one of the reasons why I am not too bothered by it being so rare.

So Warframe, the F2P game about collecting gear, should completely redo their damage system to encourage players to not "bother" anymore? Does that make sense?

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

Has this interpretation of the functionality been thoroughly tested?  Because my interpretation of "Base Critical Hits" was "Critical Hits that are not 'second strikes'".  I know not many people have access to these arcanes at present, so has someone presented evidence demonstrating that yellow crits are duplicated and orange/red crits are not?

On Base Critical Hits
100% chance for your attack to strike a second time

Yes , have rank 1 duplicate and it works as i mentioned. A second instance with its own status and crit chance.

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

It's still backwards logic. Why would I care about building more crit then? Why would I not just add more base damage, faction damage, etc... You'd still end up with much more damage than the previous "yellow crit proc" and all you did was make the system extremely convoluted.

If DE didn't want orange crits to do more damage, they would have capped crit chance at 100%. There's no reason to have crit tiers if all it does is make things not make sense.

So Warframe, the F2P game about collecting gear, should completely redo their damage system to encourage players to not "bother" anymore? Does that make sense?

Did you not understand my example ? You would still do the higher crit damage , your status procs would be based on the base crit though.

I don't think you got the whole point I am making with regards to power creep and curbing mechanisms to reduce the gap between broken gear and not so broken gear. This is all thanks to how convoluted the system already is , I would personally love it if they just removed the various multipliers and limited it to 3.

Also , If DE wanted to incentivise red or orange crits they wouldn't have capped the melee duplicate either :D , so they are thinking of some limiters on power already.

 

[Xzorn]

I'm not sure I'd model designs after a band-aid arcane grind fix for what they did to melee. It also doesn't even fix everything.

I used to use the three main Blade Whips as comparison.

• Jat Kusar scaled terribly, only good for Infested.
• Mios was a middle ground. Okay scaling potential.
• Lacera was the highest scaling potential. This was esp true for old Gas + Electric.

The difference should be obvious these days. The lack of IPS getting in the way of the Elemental procs you wanted.
Hybrid Viral + Slash or pure physical Slash was still a thing but there were other options. My Riven Serro was a beast.

Most Melee are lucky to get 60% Crit with Sacrificial Steel making Blood Rush still idea,l so they didn't solve their obsession with the combo meter either. All they did was make low Crit weapons comparatively even worse and limit options further than the new status system already did.
 

Inarnon weapons almost have the right idea. It's just poorly done. Some examples of pick combos that make more sense.

• Gun - Multi-Shot uses ammo + Punch-Through hits have a 10% chance to refill magazine.
• Melee - Non-Critiical hits that apply status will have triple potency + Hits that do not apply status increase +%Status chance.
• Low Mag Size - First Shot in Magazine has +%Status and -%Crit Dmg + Last shot in Magazine has -%Status and +%Crit Damage.
• Semi Auto Gun - Head-shots have 50% Ammo Efficiency + Head-Shots deal 100% head-crit Multiplier.
• Melee - Heavy Attacks grant 25% base Crit Chance for 15 seconds. + Slide attacks grant +%Status for 10 seconds.

Personally they either need to revert some changes or add a Status Multiplier stat to function similar as Crit Multiplier for 100%+ Status.
Non-Crit or Low-Crit is just dead otherwise.

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you not understand my example ? You would still do the higher crit damage , your status procs would be based on the base crit though.

Yes, you do more damage... but you don't. I did not think I had to spell it out for you that regardless if the raw damage is still increased, it would make no sense as to why the proc/multishot wouldn't. Something like slash procs, that players would steadily see increase as they add more damage, get headshots, use WF buffs, etc... would suddenly cease to continue functioning that way. 

People think current WF doesn't make any sense when they first play, and now you want to add backwards stuff that truly doesn't make sense?

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

regards to power creep

This community largely does not understand what the word "power creep" actually means. People like yourself wrongly use it to label progression, so that you can fearmonger your point across. 

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also , If DE wanted to incentivise red or orange crits they wouldn't have capped the melee duplicate either

No, they would have added it 10 years ago. A singular piece of brand new gear your point does not make.

Not to mention, this is what DE almost always does. They adopt the "it's better to add underpower gear and buff it, than overpowered gear and nerf it". I.E...

• They added a new projectile type in the form of the Arca Plasmor. Mechanically strong, but horrible stats. Then we progressed to the Catchmoon, then the Stropha, then the Nataruk, and now finally the Lex incarnon (with a bunch of less noteworthy weapons in between).
• Same thing with the Hespar. Largely not that great and with a horrible stance, so then they added the Corufell to succeed it. And I'm sure the Ghoulsaw and Sun & Moon will get the same treatment.
• They add the Lenz. Again, horrible charge time, no status, takes forever to explode, etc... But it's popular, so next they add the Bramma.
• Etc...

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes, you do more damage... but you don't. 

Such a logically sound statement :D

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I did not think I had to spell it out for you that regardless if the raw damage is still increased, it would make no sense as to why the proc/multishot wouldn't. Something like slash procs, that players would steadily see increase as they add more damage, get headshots, use WF buffs, etc... would suddenly cease to continue functioning that way. 

I think it makes sense , you are of course free to not agree.

You are still getting more damage , just not as much as before. As higher crit would be more suitable for direct damage not DoTs.

17 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

People think current WF doesn't make any sense when they first play, and now you want to add backwards stuff that truly doesn't make sense?

People don't understand it cause it is too convoluted with its different multipliers. 

New players will not be reaching orange crits for quite some time , they will not care. Don't hide behind new player experience as a justification

20 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

This community largely does not understand what the word "power creep" actually means. People like yourself wrongly use it to label progression, so that you can fearmonger your point across. 

I do not speak for the community , neither should you.

The differences are quite clear , one let's you use that incremental power against incrementally increasing challenges.

The other is incremental power against challenges that remains the same.

Warframe does have power progression up to a point , and then it starts creeping as the challenges can't keep up.

30 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

No, they would have added it 10 years ago. A singular piece of brand new gear your point does not make.

It does actually , that's the whole point of me having this conversation. It's the seed that spawned this discussion. The game 10 years ago was very different from what we have now.

37 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

.

Not to mention, this is what DE almost always does. They adopt the "it's better to add underpower gear and buff it, than overpowered gear and nerf it". I.E...

• They added a new projectile type in the form of the Arca Plasmor. Mechanically strong, but horrible stats. Then we progressed to the Catchmoon, then the Stropha, then the Nataruk, and now finally the Lex incarnon (with a bunch of less noteworthy weapons in between).
• Same thing with the Hespar. Largely not that great and with a horrible stance, so then they added the Corufell to succeed it. And I'm sure the Ghoulsaw and Sun & Moon will get the same treatment.
• They add the Lenz. Again, horrible charge time, no status, takes forever to explode, etc... But it's popular, so next they add the Bramma.
• Etc...

Ah yes , the plasmor that lost the headshot multiplier , the catchmoon that got it's distance reduced , the natatuk that need a relatively lower fire rate (or decent reflexes) to get perfect shot, 

And not to mention the ammo changes for most explosives ,

no nerfs there :)

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

For additional  clarity

That makes more sense. And yeah I can see that balance if we are only talking how status and crit effect eachother. Would give more meaning to stacking status aswell if you want to increase the damage output of the damaging status effects since you'd apply more of them instead of bigger ones through higher crits. And it would like you say only impact the builds that can achieve orange crits, which also means it would practically only impact the stronger weapons that currently are in need of balance/nerfing.

I got the impression from your original post that everything would be based on if you crit or not, like adding multishot only on crits, status on only crits etc.

Soooo 👍 from me.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That makes more sense. And yeah I can see that balance if we are only talking how status and crit effect eachother. Would give more meaning to stacking status aswell if you want to increase the damage output of the damaging status effects since you'd apply more of them instead of bigger ones through higher crits. And it would like you say only impact the builds that can achieve orange crits, which also means it would practically only impact the stronger weapons that currently are in need of balance/nerfing.

I got the impression from your original post that everything would be based on if you crit or not, like adding multishot only on crits, status on only crits etc.

Soooo 👍 from me.

Yay 🙂

[darklord122]

I hope you realize this would effectively kill status based weapons seeing as most of them if not all rely on the increase in status damage per crit tier, Which effectively would mean you would need to buff those weapons in turn to either do more crit across the board to compensate for the lack of damage and then focus would more be adjusted based on crits and damage rather than status for most weapons in the game, so we would be in an even bigger crit damage meta.

Its also not somewhat of a nerf, Its a straight up nerf to all weapons in the entire game. If what you said game true all weapons would see a decrease in damage even with high crit builds as what you suggest would change nothing other than status tier scaling which there is no real reason for capping seeing as there are enemies at high levels that have such a high status damage reduction that most statuses wouldnt be useful enough and as a result would effectively make status based weapons that rely on their respective procs worthless and would most likely kill status as a whole at end game if there is no way to scale them higher and unless you suggest end game should be nerfed as well in turn, Mods and status weapons would massively stagnate at that point because base damage status modifiers are just not as powerful as the crit based ones.

And if your solution is to add more status in terms of procs to compensate for the lack of damage then you will still be back to square one, The damage would be more or less the same as one large proc and people would find the most effective way to apply procs the fastest instead. Nothing would be fixed or adjusted to be more "balanced" Just more of the same.

People in the scenario without the proc addition would however more than likely pick just straight up damage and than likely would make the entire game monotonous in terms of the modding system, As experimenting with status effects wouldnt be worth it with the exception of a few such as corrosive for example which would only work in the first place due to status stacking, Not all statuses will benefit from that.

I also took a look at the arcane myself and it seems to be an arcane suitable for melee weapons that cant quite hit that crit ceiling of either pure orange or orange to red. Its made to reroll for an extra hit, crit and an extra status proc which is good for those types of weapons. It effectively makes weaker weapons stronger. But it does not suggest the whole status system has to be locked to yellow crit tiers for the damage they do.

Its a neat idea, But honestly would fall flat in terms of endgame. They have already added challenges and strong enough enemies that can tank statuses like no ones business, We dont need to nerf it. I mean S#&$ there is a boss right now that is flat out immune to one of the strongest statuses in the game and they will probably only add more.

Edited January 25 by darklord122

[0_The_F00l]

34 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

I hope you realize this would effectively kill status based weapons seeing as most of them if not all rely on the increase in status damage per crit tier, Which effectively would mean you would need to buff those weapons in turn to either do more crit across the board to compensate for the lack of damage and then focus would more be adjusted based on crits and damage rather than status for most weapons in the game, so we would be in an even bigger crit damage meta.

Its also not somewhat of a nerf, Its a straight up nerf to all weapons in the entire game. If what you said game true all weapons would see a decrease in damage even with high crit builds as what you suggest would change nothing other than status tier scaling which there is no real reason for capping seeing as there are enemies at high levels that have such a high status damage reduction that most statuses wouldnt be useful enough and as a result would effectively make status based weapons that rely on their respective procs worthless and would most likely kill status as a whole at end game if there is no way to scale them higher and unless you suggest end game should be nerfed as well in turn, Mods and status weapons would massively stagnate at that point because base damage status modifiers are just not as powerful as the crit based ones.

And if your solution is to add more status in terms of procs to compensate for the lack of damage then you will still be back to square one, The damage would be more or less the same as one large proc and people would find the most effective way to apply procs the fastest instead. Nothing would be fixed or adjusted to be more "balanced" Just more of the same.

People in the scenario without the proc addition would however more than likely pick just straight up damage and than likely would make the entire game monotonous in terms of the modding system, As experimenting with status effects wouldnt be worth it with the exception of a few such as corrosive for example which would only work in the first place due to status stacking, Not all statuses will benefit from that.

I also took a look at the arcane myself and it seems to be an arcane suitable for melee weapons that cant quite hit that crit ceiling of either pure orange or orange to red. Its made to reroll for an extra hit, crit and an extra status proc which is good for those types of weapons. It effectively makes weaker weapons stronger. But it does not suggest the whole status system has to be locked to yellow crit tiers for the damage they do.

Its a neat idea, But honestly would fall flat in terms of endgame. They have already added challenges and strong enough enemies that can tank statuses like no ones business, We dont need to nerf it. I mean S#&$ there is a boss right now that is flat out immune to one of the strongest statuses in the game and they will probably only add more.

What are you even talking about ? Do share examples if you want me to consider this an actual discussion.

I have no intent to compensate anyone for anything , it is entirely to reign in specific weapons that can achieve orange or red crits while also proc status DoT (usually bleed) consistently.

Edited January 25 by 0_The_F00l

[darklord122]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What are you even talking about ? Do share examples if you want me to consider this an actual discussion.

I have no intent to compensate anyone for anything , it is entirely to reign in specific weapons that can achieve orange or red crits while also proc status DoT (usually bleed) consistently.

Yes let me share examples of a hypothetical change to the game.

First off, Your change would effectively nerf all status. Not some weapons. This means mods, arcanes and weapons that have built in status would effectively be locked to yellow crit. This would nerf them across the board and scaling the damage would be horrible in end game.

You also didnt understand the term for "compensate" somehow. Certain weapons would need a compensation to keep up or be reworked entirely. Weapons like the torid would downright stop being viable in endgame, So what do you have to do? Compensate for the lack of status it can do. You dont seem to understand, Nerfing status to be locked to one tier of crit nerfs every weapon in the game. It doesnt reign in "some" weapons as all weapons would be effected. Unless you suggest only specific weapons get this treatment. In that case they would just stop using them and get other high meta weapons instead.

What mastery are you btw? Do you know the causality of this change in end game? Cause you dont seem to understand the figures of damage reduction.

Edited January 25 by darklord122

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are still getting more damage , just not as much as before. As higher crit would be more suitable for direct damage not DoTs.

Yet you have not addressed that there are complete work arounds to your suggestion (build for things besides crit/partial crit). Nor have you addressed the fact that it doesn't even exclusively target meta weapons. You'll be nerfing weapons like the Tiberon Prime and Heliocor more than you will weapons like Bramma and Innodem. It is an objectively bad system and an unneeded one.

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The differences are quite clear , one let's you use that incremental power against incrementally increasing challenges.

The other is incremental power against challenges that remains the same.

Those are not the definitions :) 

And I find it hilarious that you phrase it like the challenge in this game has not massively increased over time.

"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept."

Power creep has nothing to do with us getting stronger while "the enemies remain the same". Power creep is when our own gear is one upped by a statistically better piece of gear in almost every way (in a quick turnaround), invalidating the time and effort spent to get the previous gear. (Gear can still be replaced (it's literally the game's business model) so long as the turnaround is reasonable, and something like the Lenz-to-Bramma's 2.5 years, is.)

Where as players (and the majority of their arsenal) getting stronger is progression and progression alone (and that is not to say enemies aren't also getting stronger). 

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah yes , the plasmor that lost the headshot multiplier , the catchmoon that got it's distance reduced , the natatuk that need a relatively lower fire rate (or decent reflexes) to get perfect shot, 

And not to mention the ammo changes for most explosives ,

no nerfs there :)

You completely missed the point :)

For this conversation whether these items were nerfed or not doesn't matter (Lex is stronger than all of them, and you conveniently omitted it). It's that DE first implements meh versions of new items before quickly ramping up the tempo. So your point of "Melee Duplicate is meh, thus DE are beginning to 'reign in the power creep'" does not historically make sense.

You also act like it's the only melee arcane they added, and that ones like Influence/Exposure aren't as strong or stronger.

Edited January 25 by KitMeHarder

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

Ive run every netracell mission I could and still do not have one of these elusive unicorn arcanes. Melee duplicate shoukd duplicate itself and find itself in my mission reward 

[0_The_F00l]

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Yes let me share examples of a hypothetical change to the game.

First off, Your change would effectively nerf all status. Not some weapons. This means mods, arcanes and weapons that have built in status would effectively be locked to yellow crit. This would nerf them across the board and scaling the damage would be horrible in end game.

You also didnt understand the term for "compensate" somehow. Certain weapons would need a compensation to keep up or be reworked entirely. Weapons like the torid would downright stop being viable in endgame, So what do you have to do? Compensate for the lack of status it can do. You dont seem to understand, Nerfing status to be locked to one tier of crit nerfs every weapon in the game. It doesnt reign in "some" weapons as all weapons would be effected. Unless you suggest only specific weapons get this treatment. In that case they would just stop using them and get other high meta weapons instead.

What mastery are you btw? Do you know the causality of this change in end game? Cause you dont seem to understand the figures of damage reduction.

I ask for examples and you give me possibilities.

And the only weapon you do give is an OP weapon (in its incarnon form) that will likely get nerfed due to its performance .

The mention of "endgame" is an illusion , there is no endgame beyond what the players want to make of it , nobody is forced to sit hours in SP with only the most Meta loadout. I dont think you have actually used any actual status weapons in the game , you will realize most of them dont even reach 100% critical chance. And so these weapons wont be affected. So now your OP meta weapon does slash procs that only tic millions instead of billions? i can live with that.

The only few instances would be when you are using specific frames and arcanes that add flat crit that allows such weapons to reach higher crit tiers.

I m not sure what mastery has to do with it , but sure , i am currently LR3. I am pretty clear on what will happen , weapons that consistently have orange crits or higher and also proc a lot of slash /toxin / fire will lose a significant portion of their DoT damage. You might not realise this , but there arent that many weapons that can do so by themselves.

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yet you have not addressed that there are complete work arounds to your suggestion (build for things besides crit/partial crit). Nor have you addressed the fact that it doesn't even exclusively target meta weapons. You'll be nerfing weapons like the Tiberon Prime and Heliocor more than you will weapons like Bramma and Innodem. It is an objectively bad system and an unneeded one.

Heliocor is a melee weapon , has no forced bleed or even enough status or slash weightage to consistently proc slash. even if you go all status. Hammers are one of my most liked weapons , four of my most favorite loadouts have hammers in them and i do not wait for enemies to bleed to death with them.

Tiberon has an augment that adds crit on headshots , if you are actually getting persistent headshots in actual gameplay and not in the sim you will be killing enemies long before you reach orange crits.

Yeah i am not too worried about them.

Do feel free to build for partial crits or ignore it completely , i have absolutely no issues.

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Those are not the definitions :) 

And I find it hilarious that you phrase it like the challenge in this game has not massively increased over time.

"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept."

Power creep has nothing to do with us getting stronger while "the enemies remain the same". Power creep is when our own gear is one upped by a statistically better piece of gear in almost every way (in a quick turnaround), invalidating the time and effort spent to get the previous gear. (Gear can still be replaced (it's literally the game's business model) so long as the turnaround is reasonable, and something like the Lenz-to-Bramma's 2.5 years, is.)

Where as players (and the majority of their arsenal) getting stronger is progression and progression alone (and that is not to say enemies aren't also getting stronger).

I never said they were definitions , i highlighted differences.

I do not have a problem with your definitions, and warframe does have progression , it also has power creep each time new weapons or gear is released that makes older gear irrelevant as they can more easily achieve the same level of power and challenges with fewer resources, 

Does not change my opinion on what i have recommended.

4 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You completely missed the point :)

For this conversation whether these items were nerfed or not doesn't matter (Lex is stronger than all of them, and you conveniently omitted it). It's that DE first implements meh versions of new items before quickly ramping up the tempo. So your point of "Melee Duplicate is meh, thus DE are beginning to 'reign in the power creep'" does not historically make sense.

You also act like it's the only melee arcane they added, and that ones like Influence/Exposure aren't as strong or stronger.

Oh , like you omitted most of the things i had said? hah :D , you will probably omit most of what i said here too and nitpick things to suite your rhetoric,

I haven't missed the point , i have dismissed it , DE does changes that can be both buffs or nerfs depending on ... their mood i guess , on whether they want to add some balance. Having such discussion lets them (and us) get ideas .

So they may one day wake up and just say , "you know what , there is too much damage , we cant add reasonable challenge to the game that players cant delete in a second with specific loadouts , and not everyone enjoys not playing without the actual gear they farmed/bought so letsnot make another duviri, the attenuation thing works for now , lets put attenuation on all enemies ", thats a much worse option in my opinion.

Also Lex may have the higher damage per shot , but my god does it suck to use in most missions due to its horrendous fire rate in the incarnon form, i prefer the felarxs incarnon myself, for when i need to throw plasma orbs rapidly. i dont think it deserves any nerfs cause its already a bother to use.

I am not acting at all :) love the exposure on my atlas but it tends to screw up my proc weightage on other weapons , its probably the default arcane for most players just looking for damage.

Infulence is ok - it needs either a very specific elemental loadout or needs to be paired with , electric proccing gear. it has interesting results with the Titron slams.

Animosity is nice - use it on some weapons that have kind of a hybrid (from a light - heavy perspective), light leaning build - its already having sufficient checks as i can only have that heavy damage once in a while (works best with tennokai and i have opinions about having that be mods and not innate mechanic).

Fortification is ... honestly i havent bothered with this, i should test if it stacks.

Retaliation can get pretty high numbers with hildryn , but too unreliable on most other frames that dont have shield regen option, 

vortex is fun , but we have had a similar arcane for zaws for much longer ,

, i am only highlighting the duplicate here cause it already has curbing mechanisms baked into it without depending on external factors (kind of) . So if the mechanism exists , it is possible to replicate it (with some modifications).

Edited January 26 by 0_The_F00l

[PR1D3]

I don't know about the execution but I ultimately agree with the sentiment. Good luck, cause a chunk of the community will now descend upon you for dare suggesting something that would the wrangle/reel in the damage output and potentially make the big numbers go away.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

I don't know about the execution but I ultimately agree with the sentiment. Good luck, cause a chunk of the community will now descend upon you for dare suggesting something that would the wrangle/reel in the damage output and potentially make the big numbers go away.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2024-01-24 at 9:51 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

So for those that are unaware there is an arcane called melee duplicate

It has an interesting effect , it effectively adds multishot to your melee on a regular (yellow) crit , 

This means that if you have orange or red crits ,  you don't benefit from it at all. That's one of the reasons why I am not too bothered by it being so rare.

That got me thinking , maybe that's one of the ways we could curb some of the power creep we have.

Maybe not something as extreme as becoming nearly useless. But what if any special effects (like DoT status procs and multishot) are limited to base crit multipliers and only the main damage gets the additional multipliers of reaching higher crit tiers.

Yes , it's technically a nerf but it should only affect extremely broken loadouts and not affect moderate ones.

Edit : For additional  clarity, it would not reduce the chance to proc any status , it would only affect how powerful the proc is (by virtue of crit multipliers) . Right now a status proc tic on orange crit is a lot more powerful than on yellow crits. I am saying if a weapon does get an orange crit , it's status tics would be only as powerful as a yellow crit and not orange crit. The direct damage would be unaffected.

For example:

Base damage : 100

crit multiplier : 2

Yellow crit damage: 200

orange crit damage: 400,

If a DoT is procced ,

Yellow crit proc : based on 200 damage ,

Orange crit proc : also based on 200 damage.

No.

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No.

Yes

[Chewarette]

On 2024-01-24 at 8:17 PM, UnstarPrime said:

Has this interpretation of the functionality been thoroughly tested?  Because my interpretation of "Base Critical Hits" was "Critical Hits that are not 'second strikes'".  I know not many people have access to these arcanes at present, so has someone presented evidence demonstrating that yellow crits are duplicated and orange/red crits are not?

On Base Critical Hits
100% chance for your attack to strike a second time

Just for the record, I know @0_The_F00l has already replied to you, but testing was not required as it was noted in the patchnote. So that's not up to interpretations

 

Quote

Melee Duplicate (Legendary)
On Base Critical Hits: 100% chance for your attack to strike a second time. 
*Base Critical Hits (yellow by default) are all critical hits that are not “big” (orange by default) or “super” (red by default). 

 

[KitMeHarder]

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yeah i am not too worried about them.

Yes, it's been apparent that you don't care this entire thread.

You don't even care enough to get the correct stats of the Tiberon. It can get orange crits with just Point Strike, let alone any other crit mod.