Players who are not using PC shouldn't be allowed to host PUBLIC missions

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

This thread seems built on unproven assumptions and good ol' PC master race elitism.

[MarakViri]

On 2024-01-25 at 8:40 AM, Waeleto said:

It's awful to join a mission and find that the host isn't on pc and have to endure terrible enemy spawn, non-pc users shouldn't host public missions until this is changed/fixed
Keep in mind that turning crossplay off places you in a separate server completely so you're basically punished for it

So, just to clarify here. You're complaining that there is a specific part of the community that, by choosing to run missions with CrossPlay enabled on Public, are causing you, someone who is running with CrossPlay enabled on Public, to have a less fun playing experience. And the alternative, in this case disabling CrossPlay yourself, also has a detrimental effect because ... the servers are different, and you will only play with people who, like you, play PC, thus negating your entire complaint, but at the cost of a smaller available player base, because players use CrossPlay?

Am I getting that right? I also notice you specifically called out "non-PC hosted missions" as the complaint. Now, I don't know if you know this, but the minimum requirements for the game aren't actually that high, so an absolute potato of a PC can run the game. The modern consoles are more than capable of actually running the game up to spec, so really your complaint is about OldGen hosts, but of course you didn't say that. Your "PC Master Rac-ism" is showing a little.

But, you're saying that you, in your infinite wisdom and understanding of game design, want all Public games with a Console Player and a PC Player, to be hosted by the PC Player? In my personal experience, while you are correct in there being more spawns, PC players are the ones that want missions to be done their way.

Oh, loading into Hydron to level everything to max? Well, common etiquette for Hydron is a minimum of 10 waves on public. What's that? A PC Host? Awesome. That means more experience right? Well, no, because he just wants to use other players to boost his experience gains (understandably), so that he can max level his level 27 Torid. What's that, he wants to leave at wave 5? A bit rude, but hardly impactful. Oh, he was the host? Well, I guess we all have to extract then, because of the sheer number of Host Migration bugs and lobby breaks that causes.

And, while that particular issue is prevalent everywhere, I've noticed that PC players do it more frequently.

Or, a console player loads into a mission, Capture, let's say, only to find that the host has, not only completed the mission, but gotten to extraction. And they have an entire map to cover to get there, or have to deal with another host migration.

Now, if you limited this to mission types where enemy spawns actually matter, like Survival, then sure. I could agree with you. Except, if you had three console players already in the mission, and then a PC player joins... do they become the host?

Like, do you want console players to be stuck waiting for a PC host to appear so they can run a mission, unless they turn off CrossPlay or Public?

This strikes me as a complaint that you gave no practical thought to at all in regards to implementation.

There have been a few comments attempting to rectify that. A comment about lowering the spawns universally would solve your issue. You'd be able to experience the game the same way regardless of the host. Maybe then you'd realise that nobody wants this. [DE] however, would have to rebuild the coding, again, in a way to squeeze out more processing power from the OldGen units to do this.

Or, alternatively, you could be suggesting the OldGen consoles be locked out of CrossPlay, because surely nobody would complain about having a limited matchmaking group. And they could always run solo, right? Much like you could, but won't, I suppose.

[DE] could let people turn their PCs into dedicated servers, I suppose. That way you would always be host for your own games. And that console players (and PC players who don't do that) would try to auto-fill this before creating their own lobby. That seems like a potentially workable solution.

Your point was valid, but the way you phrased it makes you sound petty and entitled.

A workable solution does need to be found as, even though the impacts are rarely actually impactful to gameplay, as enemy density is only truly important in Survival (and I guess Alchemy now), it is indeed present.

Edited January 26 by MarakViri

[Xzorn]

From my experience Console only has a real issue when it comes to endurance runs. This was PS4.

PS5 probably has less issue while the others might have more an issue. Probably one reason DE turned everything into mission spam.

I imagine a potato PC would have the same issues. The host gets more and more strain as missions go longer but that's P2P for ya.

[Circle_of_Psi]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

good ol' PC master race elitism.

Hey, don't be mean xD

 

^{_{Bad Sierra :(}}

Edited January 26 by Circle_of_Psi

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

To be really real and blunt, even people with bad to medium quality (and lower) PC's as well as all consoles shouldn't be allowed to go public at all, let alone host. Only people with the highest end PC's of the current year, with wired Internet connections, and back up power generators in countries with the best internet infrastructure should be interacting with others in public lobbies. Basically unless you are rich and in Singapore, you should probably not be playing games. Lets just say what everyone is thinking. Maybe instead of gaming, you can get another job you know... to move to a better Internet country and get an actual decent gaming PC. 

Feels really bad when the squad doesn't load in simultaneously, and perform the Ginyu Force dance pose in perfect synchronisation without lag or missed frames. 

Jokes and hyperbole aside, I personally do not mind at all. I played with someone with bad wifi the other day, and they were apologetic about being host, and i felt bad for them, for having to feel like they should apologise, but I would genuinely rather play with a Switch host with slow lag, who is a decent person, letting me be me, than someone who is host with the ideal gaming experience, who is elitist or a Hampton Wick trying to control others experiences. Not that those types are mutually exclusive. I play with some friend who have high end PC's who really don't care either, and are super respectful and friendly to other. Also to be clear, I am not saying if you do care or have preferences, you are elitist or of bad character and can't be friendly and polite. Having preferences is totally valid and fair enough, and you can be that without being a jerk to others, I'm just generalising about my own preferences. 

By a similar same token, if players did care though, and felt this way, they should really just turn off crossplay. You could make an argument that since its on by default, its going to skewer the numbers, and should be opt in instead... but maybe a lot of people, just really don't care either way, and a decent enough spawn rate and other such variables, is fine, as opposed to some perfect scenario otherwise. Or ask for better filter options. Not only won't DE not force such an issue, they'd... just... the awareness around such ideas as conceived by some. You can make other arguments to, about some of the other benefits, but then its just a matter of what your priority is. Do you want the benefits of playing with people who don't mind, or people who do. 

Like the only filter I'd be down for, is "players who want to police and enforce their preferences about what hardware you use, wired only, no wifi, what Warframes you should use, what weapons you are allowed, whether you should play meta, or avoid meta, whether you should only use colour palettes, and every other sort of insistence and attempt to control" and "players who really don't care as long as you aren't a raging drob". Except even then, games are so short anyway, I still probably wouldn't care still, as long as the controlling types were respectful and polite and their attempts to control were fruitless. 

Then once more for emphasis, I really do sympathise with those that want a smoother, purer, better gaming experience, that feels impeded by others. I often go solo in Warframe, because of certain reasons. I'd argue thats just controlling my own gaming experience than controlling others, but either way, similar motivations. Aside from issues around excluding certain players from having options and choices others get to indulge in though, those players engagement and money is also quite valuable to DE. There are likely many superior alternatives DE would actually pursue. So ironically, in this sense, you are the console player with bad wifi, and DE has the superior hardware enforcing their ideal on you (business, as in money and engagement). 

[Hikuro-93]

I agree that something should be done to at the very least increase the spawn rate on PS5/XBSX/S.

This as a player who plays mainly on PS5, and on PC while travelling/AFH (neat Lenovo Legion 5 laptop from last year, haven't had any issues on any PC games so far). 

While the game runs very well in both machines, I do notice that when I'm hosting on PC the enemy spawns are noticeably higher, and far more enjoyable.

I do try not to be a host (not because of this issue, but because I might have to leave "early" and I don't want to force anyone to extract or cause host migrations), but if I could have my PC's spawns on my PS5 as a host, god, that'd sure be wonderful.

Until then it's this, I guess. PS5's simplicity is just it for me.

Edited January 26 by Hikuro-93

[Aruquae]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

This thread seems built on unproven assumptions and good ol' PC master race elitism.

Literally every thread that has to do with this situation is PC elitism

Nobody ever thinks about the console players that have to suffer through PC lobbies because their device can’t handle it

[Circle_of_Psi]

31 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Literally every thread that has to do with this situation is PC elitism

Nobody ever thinks about the console players that have to suffer through PC lobbies because their device can’t handle it

That is a really good point..

[---Merchant---]

Console players hosting are bad at more levels than you realize.

Lets say you get 1000 stoneniums/hour with PC host
This means you get 300 stoneniums/hour when console is hosting because the spawnrates are sometimes less than 30% of pc host

Computers are connected to lan, this means pc connection is always more stable than wifi devices like switch and phones. Which should give them priority even ignoring the spawnrate issue.

And lastly, when your mission is to kill x enemies (for example kill 1000 enemies in survival mission bounty  it takes literally 10 times longer with console host

What should happen
>PC host priority(this is better experience even for the console player)
>If console is the host, scale rewards and missions to the smaller ammount of enemies spawned, if 50% less enemies  spawn then give people 50% more reward per kill
If the bounty is kill 100 enemies, make it 50.
If you need 10 fissures to open relic, drop 50% more fissures. Do not punish people for playing with people with console hardware.
>Turning off crossplay on PC still connecting you to PC users that have crossplay on in case it can build computer party, if computer party can not be done then enter the prolonged search of pc users

When connecting to console host I feel like crazytown visitor, with around 3 enemy spawns/5minutes in survival. Forcing us to just spam the life support machines to not fail.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2024-01-24 at 4:09 PM, Circle_of_Psi said:

As much as I agree with you, there are 2 solutions to your problem

Go Solo

Or

Disable Cross-play

pamofficetheyrethesamepicturememe.png

 

Disabling crossplay isn't a valid solution, as the OP already pointed out.  You only match with other people who disable crossplay, which is effectively the same as playing solo in 99% of content, only without the QOL of a pause button.

 

That said, I don't think outright preventing console players from hosting is a realistic solution.  What I would hope for is more nuanced hosting options.  Let me force host.  Let me avoid console hosts.  I just don't ever want to load into another survival mission and see like 3 enemies to kill because the host is on a Switch or something.  I have a Switch.  I love it.  But I'm not trying to use it for Warframe.

[NeonNebula9]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:50 AM, Shodian2016 said:

Honestly the way to truly fix the issue is just tone down the spawns for all platforms so it's even for everyone. 

How’s that a fix? Please make it make sense. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

10 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

pamofficetheyrethesamepicturememe.png

 

Disabling crossplay isn't a valid solution, as the OP already pointed out.  You only match with other people who disable crossplay, which is effectively the same as playing solo in 99% of content, only without the QOL of a pause button.

 

That said, I don't think outright preventing console players from hosting is a realistic solution.  What I would hope for is more nuanced hosting options.  Let me force host.  Let me avoid console hosts.  I just don't ever want to load into another survival mission and see like 3 enemies to kill because the host is on a Switch or something.  I have a Switch.  I love it.  But I'm not trying to use it for Warframe.

Fair I guess but I have no idea how DE can set it up for you to be the force host either way I'm all for it.

But like I said, I have Zero issues when connecting to matchmaking with Corss-play off, so unless DE switch it so you are forced to be in Crossplay, then I don't see me switching it off until DE either does 2 things.

Preventing console players & low spec/wifi players from hosting

or

ditch cross-play entirely, since everyone who has made a topic like this, doesn't want to play with console players and for good reasons.

or

Make servers for us to connect and ditch the host thing all together

[Shodian87]

6 hours ago, NeonNebula9 said:

How’s that a fix? Please make it make sense. 

Simple, if all spawn rates are the same, there wouldn't be anyone complaining about it. 👍

[ShockTNC]

On 2024-01-24 at 5:09 PM, Circle_of_Psi said:

As much as I agree with you, there are 2 solutions to your problem

Go Solo

Or

Disable Cross-play

So your solution is for him to not play with other people at all, or cut the number of people he can play with down to like 30% of the playerbase. 

[ShockTNC]

On 2024-01-24 at 4:40 PM, Waeleto said:

It's awful to join a mission and find that the host isn't on pc and have to endure terrible enemy spawn, non-pc users shouldn't host public missions until this is changed/fixed
Keep in mind that turning crossplay off places you in a separate server completely so you're basically punished for it

I didn't actually know there were spawn issues with console players hosting. That seems like something DE should have fixed before ever enabling crossplay.  

[NeonNebula9]

8 hours ago, Shodian2016 said:

Simple, if all spawn rates are the same, there wouldn't be anyone complaining about it. 👍

Let’s make it worse instead of fixing it 😀

[Thraxxsis]

wow. people with Pc's can have S#&$y connection too and this person has no idea how this works and should ignored rofl

[sunderthefirmament]

29 minutes ago, Thraxxsis said:

wow. people with Pc's can have S#&$y connection too and this person has no idea how this works and should ignored rofl

It's not about the connection.  It's about processing power.  Console hosts have reduced spawns to keep the processing load lighter on the host machine.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2024-01-26 at 3:10 PM, ---Merchant--- said:

Console players hosting are bad at more levels than you realize.

Lets say you get 1000 stoneniums/hour with PC host
This means you get 300 stoneniums/hour when console is hosting because the spawnrates are sometimes less than 30% of pc host

Computers are connected to lan, this means pc connection is always more stable than wifi devices like switch and phones. Which should give them priority even ignoring the spawnrate issue.

And lastly, when your mission is to kill x enemies (for example kill 1000 enemies in survival mission bounty  it takes literally 10 times longer with console host

What should happen
>PC host priority(this is better experience even for the console player)
>If console is the host, scale rewards and missions to the smaller ammount of enemies spawned, if 50% less enemies  spawn then give people 50% more reward per kill
If the bounty is kill 100 enemies, make it 50.
If you need 10 fissures to open relic, drop 50% more fissures. Do not punish people for playing with people with console hardware.
>Turning off crossplay on PC still connecting you to PC users that have crossplay on in case it can build computer party, if computer party can not be done then enter the prolonged search of pc users

When connecting to console host I feel like crazytown visitor, with around 3 enemy spawns/5minutes in survival. Forcing us to just spam the life support machines to not fail.

 

Im not sold that spawn rates are even different solely based on whether host is pc or console. 

If I go run say, steel path kuva survival solo, its the same for me as if i join a PC host. Or play on PC myself. Because cross save. Im more inclined to think theres another reason for the perceived spawn rate variance between matches. 

But hey, devil's advocate, maybe I'm wrong. Regardless.

Can we not pretend that just because someone is playing on PC, that automatically means they have the best connection quality out of the group and the session wont ever lag like hell? 

I want the game to pick host based on how well the network will perform. Thanks.

 

And can we not pretend that all PC's are the same? Its not like every PC player had 4x 5090 GPU's stuck together and 64 terabytes of GDDRX69 RAM.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Im not sold that spawn rates are even different solely based on whether host is pc or console. 

If I go run say, steel path kuva survival solo, its the same for me as if i join a PC host.

It's really, really obvious if you're used to PC spawns.  It's even more obvious if you carry an enemy radar mod (or more than one).  It's even more obvious if you occasionally or regularly play Saryn.

 

The content I play most frequently are incursions on open matchmaking, which should feature high spawns due being bound to Steel Path.  The difference between a windows logo host and a swirly circle crossplay logo host is like night and day.

 

5 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Can we not pretend that just because someone is playing on PC, that automatically means they have the best connection quality out of the group and the session wont ever lag like hell? 

See my earlier comment:

14 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's not about the connection.  It's about processing power.  Console hosts have reduced spawns to keep the processing load lighter on the host machine.

 

The ping limiter is fairly effective at preventing connections to laggy hosts.  I don't know that the ping limiter works properly with crossplay, but I'm not sure.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Yes let's punish players instead of bonking DE on the head for refusing to invest into their game. Excellent idea. This is how gaming has evolved, right?

At this point, just ban all console players, this legitimately fixes the issue, no? 

Jesus. Reading some of this nonsense has me cheering that none of you have any say in any game whatsoever 🥳

[Xylia]

I said this way back when the first console version of Warframe was announced, and I'm going to say it again:

I always held that releasing Warframe for Console and then making it Cross-play was quite simply a mistake.

I used to play this little MMORPG called Final Fantasy XI. It started out on PS2 and then was ported to PC along with the NA version upon the release of its first expansion. At first everything was just peachy, but as the PS2 started to get to the end of its cycle, phat PS2s were harder to find (the game obviously required an HDD which the PS2Slim did not have a bay for), and as they made more and more content, more stuff we asked for, they said no because of "PS2 Limitations".

This quickly became a meme in the FFXI community, where anybody who came up with an idea would be laughed at and people would all repeat: "PS2 Limitations". Eventually, they had to drop PS2 and 360 support, but too little too late, "PS2 Limitations" was so ingrained into the game's code, upgrades to the systems that really needed upgrading were too difficult by the time it was possible, and the game was already in mostly maintenance mode as most development had ceased, and only small bits of stuff was being added, mostly rehashed and recycled content, and the devtools to make completely new stuff were gone.

Well, same thing is going to happen eventually here in Warframe. We WILL hit the limit of the first console that Warframe was released, and DE will be forced to either drop support, or start touting "Console Limitations" whenever anybody asks for stuff.

Let us hope that DE does not repeat SE's mistake in supporting the old consoles too long that coding around them becomes in-grained into the game's code.

 

That said, I also said a lot time ago that people should be able to go into their settings menu and choose "Please don't make me a host", for those people with old PCs, or slow internet connections, or people with data transfer limits.

 

It simply boggles the mind that we don't have such a feature, in 2024. How long has the game been out yet, and how long have we been asking for this kind of thing?

[Xzorn]

On 2024-01-27 at 12:18 AM, NeonNebula9 said:

How’s that a fix? Please make it make sense. 

 

It's not even really spawn rates. It's cumulative data over long periods straining the host.
More enemies, more drops, more pick ups more data for the host to keep track of till mission complete.

The only Warframe streamer I ever watched was a fellow endurance runner on PS4 and their frames would slowly tank over time.
After a point allies in the mission had trouble picking up items. I assume this happens to PC also if you don't have a good rig.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

It's really, really obvious if you're used to PC spawns.  It's even more obvious if you carry an enemy radar mod (or more than one).  It's even more obvious if you occasionally or regularly play Saryn.

 

The content I play most frequently are incursions on open matchmaking, which should feature high spawns due being bound to Steel Path.  The difference between a windows logo host and a swirly circle crossplay logo host is like night and day.

 

See my earlier comment:

 

The ping limiter is fairly effective at preventing connections to laggy hosts.  I don't know that the ping limiter works properly with crossplay, but I'm not sure.

Even if that were true, and all i see so far is purely subjective anecdote without any proof to even back that up from a handful of people, id rather occasionally have lower spawn rates than laggy at connections because the game decides well theyre PC so what if their rig is a toaster running off of mcdonalds wifi 3 blocks away.

If this was true i shouldnt have to be "used to" pc spawns. I should be able to go into a steel path mission on my PC and see a difference. 

[sunderthefirmament]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Even if that were true, and all i see so far is purely subjective anecdote without any proof to even back that up from a handful of people, id rather occasionally have lower spawn rates than laggy at connections because the game decides well theyre PC so what if their rig is a toaster running off of mcdonalds wifi 3 blocks away.

If this was true i shouldnt have to be "used to" pc spawns. I should be able to go into a steel path mission on my PC and see a difference. 

Fine, I'll test it, though this isn't going to be incredibly scientific.

 

I ran ESO.  With a PC host, my Saryn had a peak of 35 enemies spored.  After one wave, kills were 412 (me), 8, 112, and 135.  667 was the total.

 

With a console host, the peak was 19 enemies spored.  After one wave, kills were 274 (me), 88, 27, and 137.  A total of 526.

 

In both matches, I played fairly actively and spread my spores with my bramma, my 4, and my 3.  I did most of the damage and got most of the kills.  In the PC hosted game I was the only nuker.  In the console hosted game, there were 2 other nukers, which I theorize accounts for the smaller discrepancy between kills despite the peak spore count being so disparate.  I have no idea what platform the console host was using.

 

If anyone cares to and has friends on different platforms, you could set up something much more scientific.  The only people I know who play this game play it on PC though, and I don't really want to bother strangers about this.  I don't think we'll ever hear an official word from DE on this, as it's a bad look for the company.  Admitting that spawn rates and everything associated with them (difficulty, fun, drops, affinity, etc.) are variable across platforms wouldn't be a solid PR move.

Edited January 28 by sunderthefirmament