What warframes need a rework?

[ReddyDisco]

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

and her 1 please

It's a cheap cast fireball ability, with augment it adds heat damage to weapons for you and teammates. It's also a free helminth subsume slot, don't think it needs any changes imo

Edited February 15 by ReddyDisco
Spelling

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

3 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

It's a cheap cast fireball ability, with augment it adds heat damage to weapons for you and teammates. It's also a free helminth subsume slot, don't think it needs any changes imo

I really don't see how something being so minor to a Warframes play style is good, especially when it's so bad by itself that it can be Helminthed off. 

I don't think Fireball should just have the Augment baked in for obvious reasons, but making it better at taking out an enemy or two really isn't too much to ask. The rest of her kit could use some tweaks for sure, but Fireball is probably the easiest to fix since it's mostly just a damage increase.

You could totally increase Fireballs base damage so the multiple cast gimmick works a bit better, maybe even give two extra balls that spawn to hit other enemies to help it spread the damage a bit better. If that's not really going to fix anything, give it some utility, Ember would be pretty happy with a grouping ability considering how her 4 works.

Would you not want Calibans Razor Gyre to be buffed in some capacity even if it got a good Augment?

Edited February 15 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

I really don't see how something being so minor to a Warframes play style is good, especially when it's so bad by itself that it can be Helminthed off. 

I don't think Fireball should just have the Augment baked in for obvious reasons, but making it better at taking out an enemy or two really isn't too much to ask. The rest of her kit could use some tweaks for sure, but Fireball is probably the easiest to fix since it's mostly just a damage increase.

You could totally increase Fireballs base damage so the multiple cast gimmick works a bit better, maybe even give two extra balls that spawn to hit other enemies to help it spread the damage a bit better. If that's not really going to fix anything, give it some utility, Ember would be pretty happy with a grouping ability considering how her 4 works.

Would you not want Calibans Razor Gyre to be buffed in some capacity even if it got a good Augment?

It's her base ability though, and it serves as a CC. Non SP enemies easily get destroyed by her 1 and, in SP, the augment can really play a significant role in boosting the squads damage. Not all of the abilities are supposed to be super stellar, but are they all useful? In Fireball's case, yes for low and high level. 

[Xzorn]

Ember, Volt, Saryn and Frost were all in the same boat with their first abilities when Damage 2.0 came out.

They were all meh touch up CC with Volt probably being the best since it had the higher AoE even though the skill could miss at the times. They got outscaled very easily, though to be fair most ability damage was like that. Weapons were how you killed higher level enemies and when the augments came out that was their best use.

Saryn was the only frame saved from this fate and likely on accident. They tried so hard to force her kit into her 4th to prevent spam they made her 1st one of the better in the game. Viral or Corrosive versions. Ember wasn't so lucky. Even now, ability damage only half works because enemies are made of paper.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

6 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

It's her base ability though, and it serves as a CC. Non SP enemies easily get destroyed by her 1 and, in SP, the augment can really play a significant role in boosting the squads damage. Not all of the abilities are supposed to be super stellar, but are they all useful? In Fireball's case, yes for low and high level. 

Why would you ever think Fireball is good CC of all things? CC implies something that hits a group, since it's "crowd control", and Fireball is mostly single target since it has a tiny 2.5 meter range. It can kind of do it, sure, but you have two other abilities if you want CC.

Fireball is mostly supposed to be a damage ability, it has a really high damage increase built into it for holding it down for the charge, then it has a recurrent cast multiplier, THEN it has the flat double damage increase from anything already on fire on top what fire already does. Yet like you already admitted, it falls off pretty hard in SP and doesn't really justify the energy cost over just casting Inferno again.

The only real issue Fireball has is that the base damage isn't very high, 400 damage is kind of pitiful at higher levels even with a ton of multipliers and you could easily fix that by just increasing it. It still slaps at lower levels, and now it works better at higher levels without relying on a completely different usage case from the Augment. You use the Augment for gun damage, not for ability damage. I'm mostly suggesting things like multiple Fireballs on cast so you don't have to cast it as much (as it'll increase the multiplier faster in two casts instead of three) and so it has more area coverage.

I can understand this argument for say Loki or Harrow, they aren't ability damage Warframes almost entirely based on obliterating everything on the screen with raw DPS. This is Ember though, her kit is literally designed to kill and delete things. Heat is purely a DPS option even for modding with very light CC. I don't see why this is such a strange suggestion.

Edited February 16 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , (XBOX)Graysmog 说:

Yet like you already admitted, it falls off pretty hard in SP and doesn't really justify the energy cost over just casting Inferno again.

A reminder that the game was not designed or balanced around SP. By the same token of logic, almost 90% of damage abilities in the entire game are useless against SP lvl 100 corrupt heavy gunner. When was the last time you use spectral scream in SP?

Not everything needs to be Dagath or Gyre. Surely we can always buff certain thing to make it more powerful in this power fantasy simulator, but the current status of fireball is OK-ish.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

17 hours ago, RichardKam said:

A reminder that the game was not designed or balanced around SP. By the same token of logic, almost 90% of damage abilities in the entire game are useless against SP lvl 100 corrupt heavy gunner. When was the last time you use spectral scream in SP?

Not everything needs to be Dagath or Gyre. Surely we can always buff certain thing to make it more powerful in this power fantasy simulator, but the current status of fireball is OK-ish.

What? 90% of damage abilities aren't useless in SP, that's a gross exaggeration. Most are fairly decent or have options to work just fine for SP, which is true even for Fireball, the Augment is a decent option for SP. The problem is Fireball sucks by itself. You're already admitting it has a problem by saying it's just "ok-ish" at it's job as a DPS ability. 

Spectral Scream is one of the worst DPS abilities in the game, it has been a constant point of exasperation since DE has upgraded it quite a bit and it still doesn't do much of anything. I'm really not sure why you're even bringing this ability up as some kind of point? We're also talking about Ember here, not Chroma, who is known more for how tough he can be and his weapon DPS over his ability DPS regardless. It actually makes more sense for Spectral Scream to not be great at damage, even if it still shouldn't be THAT bad.

A lot of the game is being updated to deal with SP and content similar to it like Archon Hunts, you have shield changes, elemental changes and entire Warframe reworks to have a character handle higher level content with more versatility. DE wants to give us more options, and that's why things are being buffed or changed in general. If that wasn't the case, why would DE buff characters like Hydroid to his current level when he worked just fine for the star chart? Warframe is a constantly evolving game, and thanks to that, things get nerfed and buffed accordingly to keep up with the current level of content.

Duh, I'm well aware not every Warframe is Gyre or Dagath, I already pointed out Warframes not as focused on pure Ability DPS like Trinity, Loki, Harrow, Frost and so on. Ember however is a lot more like Saryn or Octavia, she's heavily built around killing things in a large area fairly quickly. So yeah, she's supposed to be in that same ballpark and functions fairly similar to Gyre or Dagath.

[Hexerin]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Ember however is a lot more like Saryn or Octavia, she's heavily built around killing things in a large area fairly quickly.

Except, she doesn't do that on SP. _{^{Especially against Corpus.}}

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , (XBOX)Graysmog 说:

 Ember however is a lot more like Saryn or Octavia, she's heavily built around killing things in a large area fairly quickly. So yeah, she's supposed to be in that same ballpark and functions fairly similar to Gyre or Dagath.

Hmmmm.....how about Ember is......Ember? Why she should be more like Saryn and Octavia or a MK-II of some other frames?

Listen, I am fine with buffing fireball damage. Maybe a bit of damage increase or something along that line, but that's it. Fireball is a signature ability. Straightforward and simple.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

49 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Hmmmm.....how about Ember is......Ember? Why she should be more like Saryn and Octavia or a MK-II of some other frames?

Listen, I am fine with buffing fireball damage. Maybe a bit of damage increase or something along that line, but that's it. Fireball is a signature ability. Straightforward and simple.

Ember is a DPSframe first and foremost. Being similar to other DPSframes and doing things a bit different while still being a valuable option in the same category is kind of a given. Ember overall is fine and does work as a DPS option, it's mostly just that Fireballs damage isn't very high and stops really being used over the usual Fire Blast and Inferno combo. It falls behind the rest of her kit and could use a touch-up.

Yes I'm well aware, and that's what I was mostly suggesting. A buff to Fireballs damage, and the different ways you can go about it, like increasing the base damage or making multiple Fireballs occur on cast instead. Not really sure why I have to keep repeating this, I never said Ember was awful or something, I said Fireball could use a buff.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Except, she doesn't do that on SP. _{^{Especially against Corpus.}}

Ember only removes Armor and Heat doesn't work especially well against Shields. Her not being as effective against Corpus isn't really surprising. You'll have to build around that for obvious reasons. Hopefully DE looks at how inconsistent damage from her 3 and 4 can be, but that's a separate issue.

Completely on her own without any help from outside sources like Helminth? No not as well, a lot of DPSframes usually resort to changing up builds drastically in order to nuke things that have basically doubled their defenses. You usually need a lot more investment, but you can still do it. Ember generally requires a lot of spamming and can be really Energy hungry if you try to do it without stuff like Roar or Breach Surge, but again, you can still do it.

Saryn for instance has her Spores and 4 fall off pretty hard in SP, so you need extra stuff to supplement it, like Helminth or Archon Shards. Either that, or you can just go nuts with pretty bonkers Toxic Lash builds that really don't care what level the enemy is.

Gyre doesn't exactly nuke in SP either without some help from Armor Strip in some fashion, but it's not like she's magically not a DPS option anymore.

Edited February 17 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

22 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Ember is a DPSframe first and foremost. Being similar to other DPSframes and doing things a bit different while still being a valuable option in the same category is kind of a given. Ember overall is fine and does work as a DPS option, it's mostly just that Fireballs damage isn't very high and stops really being used over the usual Fire Blast and Inferno combo. It falls behind the rest of her kit and could use a touch-up.

Yes I'm well aware, and that's what I was mostly suggesting. A buff to Fireballs damage, and the different ways you can go about it, like increasing the base damage or making multiple Fireballs occur on cast instead. Not really sure why I have to keep repeating this, I never said Ember was awful or something, I said Fireball could use a buff.

I can get behind this. I'm definitely not against Fireball getting a change, but I'm not for it either, mostly because I have reservations about how basically any improvement would make her kit truly over the top powerful.

Fireball's quirks and mechanics drawbacks balances her AOE dominant kit, IMO. However, the overall utility power of Fireball, in regards to the augment and its effects on her passive and her 2, allows for creativity to take over and open options for SP builds. It's strong and versatile enough for SP but also can be left out for a subsume. I like that balance. 

All of that said, maybe a tracking element or a wider splash would be cool. Another option is to remove the charge up mechanic and, instead, hold to release  three medium sized fireballs in a spread. Maybe

[traybong111]

On 2024-02-16 at 9:48 PM, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Ember is a DPSframe first and foremost. Being similar to other DPSframes and doing things a bit different while still being a valuable option in the same category is kind of a given. Ember overall is fine and does work as a DPS option, it's mostly just that Fireballs damage isn't very high and stops really being used over the usual Fire Blast and Inferno combo. It falls behind the rest of her kit and could use a touch-up.

Yes I'm well aware, and that's what I was mostly suggesting. A buff to Fireballs damage, and the different ways you can go about it, like increasing the base damage or making multiple Fireballs occur on cast instead. Not really sure why I have to keep repeating this, I never said Ember was awful or something, I said Fireball could use a buff.

As a long time Ember hater who misses Flash Accelerant more than anything I would like her to be able to add fire damage to her weapons without the augment. Frost doesn't have an innate cold damage addition either to be fair, but he has supreme area lockdown and better armor strip than Ember (not to mention wholly superior selection of Augments, which isn't hard to do because all of Ember's Augments are lazy uncreative trash.) Volt has the shield which is one of the best damage-amplifying abilities in the game disguised as a defense ability and the less I say about Toxic Lash the better. 

I've also always wanted the "elemental" frames to have their own little spin on their 1s. Saryn has the most unique iteration but Frost's lingering ice patches and Volt's chain lightning are good enough I suppose (though I wouldn't mind a buff either.) So Fireball's spin would be that Ember can throw out multiple at a time--2 at rank 1 and all the way up to 5 at rank 3--to make up for the relatively small AoE on individual projectile. However, that runs into, yet again, her 1 and 4 being redundant with each other--which is a design overlap that, yet again, only Saryn has received any kind of thought for. 

So basically buff or change Fireball (and Freeze). Give her heat damage overdrive so that infinitely scaling energy cost on Immolation feels like it's fueling something worthwhile at least. Could even call it Overheat for old time's sake. 

Edited February 18 by traybong111

[MrNishi]

On 2024-02-09 at 6:24 PM, Pakaku said:

I just play her as a shotgun sniper. Her 3 will drop energy orbs if you make headshot kills, but meleeing heads is awkward. Shotguns tend to make the best of close-range gun combat, although any gun will accomplish the same thing close-range, and I find my energy is always topped off

If her 4 augment was an innate part of her kit instead of a lazy band-aid patch, I'd consider her whole kit built perfectly fine

Her 3 synergizes well with Glaives, Exodia Contagion Zaw, and less-so with Gun Blade/Corufell Heavy shots 

Opening up Range with her 2 being a Leap+Primer (then Stealth cloak for melee critical buffs from 1 and Attack)

~1cast cloak double jump + Exodia Contagion is satisfying on 2 cast primed enemy groups

4th ability on Voruna is bad replacement fodder. 

The 4th passive of not costing a life to die is maybe useful for newer player leveling and much like Exlated weapons the ability damage is too mod-restricted. (For my liking...so I run Roar to help boast her 2 (Fangs of Raksh) can get really decent DoT damage spreading. 

[Cyrefy]

Nyx - it's a problem, she offers group control in a sea of nukes, and you can say that she is invulnerable with the fourth skill, but so is the Revenant and he has more mobility and an augment that makes the team invulnerable too, I won't even mention that he also has control over his enemies...

Chroma - has only one use and that is to multiply credits...

Gara - lacks in versatility, she can only do 1 build in one way in order to do something.

Styanax - it has a problem, the overguard only works for a few levels +/- 250 SP, after that you lose it while you catch it, it looks very good on paper, because you see a styanax in a survival period of 10 to 20 minutes "shining" but no, it doesn't, it gives 50k overguard, yes it does, but at the beginning of survival no one needs it, when someone really needs it you carry 8k to 10k per cast you can't even take advantage of it because it ends before it falls to the ground, I'm not in favor of him gaining infinite overguard, but I would like it to be something that scales with the enemies' life or armor/shield, otherwise the first skill is simply a joke, I'd rather put khora esnare... or anything else, in my opinion the third skill is the best...

Voruna - I can fix her easily, her biggest flaw is how weird her fourth skill is in the kit, if the player can use literally any melee weapon to give a heavy attack, why not let her fourth skill be based on her melee weapon equipped, I researched a lot about it, people who use the fourth skill only use it for one reason "it looks cool" and that alone, there is simply no justification for it not being like that, it doesn't make any logical sense, it does exactly what a heavy attack would only make it much worse, another thing is the randomness of the status effect of the second skill, it took years to change eclipse due to inconsistency, I wonder how many years it will take to change this skill...

[Nerthiril]

On 2024-03-04 at 7:47 PM, Cyrefy said:

Chroma - has only one use and that is to multiply credits...

Agreed. They’ve fallen so far from ultimate eidolon hunter to just being there for PT credit doubling. I even think people just subsume over VA when doing that so basically no one even uses their abilities when doing PT as chroma anyways.

On 2024-03-04 at 7:47 PM, Cyrefy said:

Voruna - I can fix her easily, her biggest flaw is how weird her fourth skill is in the kit, if the player can use literally any melee weapon to give a heavy attack, why not let her fourth skill be based on her melee weapon equipped, I researched a lot about it, people who use the fourth skill only use it for one reason "it looks cool" and that alone, there is simply no justification for it not being like that, it doesn't make any logical sense, it does exactly what a heavy attack would only make it much worse, another thing is the randomness of the status effect of the second skill, it took years to change eclipse due to inconsistency, I wonder how many years it will take to change this skill...

Voruna yah. But I don’t think they need a rework. Maybe just a tweak. Reworks I’d save for ones whoes most of their kit just doesn’t work in the current system of which 1-3 all work flawlessly and really pair well together with the melee playstyle. 4’s main issue Imo is that it isn’t statstickable. If you could use a stat stick for it that would definitely increase its potency

[Hypertion]

top 5?

Nyx

Chroma

Inaros

Caliban

Limbo

 

 

[Aruquae]

4 hours ago, Hypertion said:

Limbo

Finally someone said it

Please give my boy Limbo some love 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2024-03-04 at 4:47 PM, Cyrefy said:

Styanax - it has a problem, the overguard only works for a few levels +/- 250 SP, after that you lose it while you catch it, it looks very good on paper, because you see a styanax in a survival period of 10 to 20 minutes "shining" but no, it doesn't, it gives 50k overguard, yes it does, but at the beginning of survival no one needs it

Seems like he's in the same position as the majority of frames in that way.  But with an added 0.5 gate on top of his shield gate and less vulnerability to toxin  if he chooses to go with Intrepid Stand.