Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[NaoQalli]

23 hours ago, Hexerin said:

To get the full five rewards, you are required to activate all of the modifiers in the left-hand column. That includes using a loadout comprised entirely of the weekly randomized equipment. It isn't optional, and that is why people are criticizing the design of the mode.

The fourth and fifth rewards from the week are locked behind this. You have to do a run with everything enabled (including randomized loadout) to enable this, at which point you have to do a second run with everything (including this) enabled to get the full rewards for the week.

There are no confirmation that you need to activate all modifiers yet. Pablo specifically mentioned that the team is still ruminating between "most, if not all [modifiers]".

Edited February 25 by NaoQalli

[Hexerin]

Just now, NaoQalli said:

There are no confirmation that you need to activate all modifiers yet. Pablo specifically mentioned that the team is still ruminating between almost all modifiers or all modifiers.

Firstly:

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

We're less than a month away from the patch, what we're seeing is how it's going to work. You don't make fundamental changes to a system when this close to release.

Secondly, read the tooltip. It explicitly states that you have to use all of them to unlock Elite, and you have to use Elite to get enough points to get all five rewards. This is not complicated, the stream showed everything we need to know to know how this will work.

[NaoQalli]

7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Firstly:

Secondly, read the tooltip. It explicitly states that you have to use all of them to unlock Elite, and you have to use Elite to get enough points to get all five rewards. This is not complicated, the stream showed everything we need to know to know how this will work.

The "tooltip" is a devbuild IMMEDIATELY superceded by Pablo's words still brainstorming on whether they want to put either "most, if not all [modifiers]". Your speculation is practically meaningless when we don't even know if they're going to release this update before the next March devstream.

Talk to me again when you have explicit evidence it's a hard confirmation.

Edited February 25 by NaoQalli

[Hexerin]

5 minutes ago, NaoQalli said:

Talk to me again when you have explicit evidence it's a hard confirmation.

Another example of "common sense is not so common".

[NaoQalli]

On 2024-02-26 at 3:00 AM, Hexerin said:

Another example of "common sense is not so common".

Ah, ad hominiem. Sweet words in my ears.

Unless you're a DE insider who can confirm that Pablo is 100%, beyond any and all reasonable doubts, not going to tweak one variable that determines how many points you need to unlock elite, under any circumstances, no matter what happens, regardless of how long it takes for the new update to launch: it's never going to be a hard confirmation. It's wishful thinking.

Edited February 27 by NaoQalli

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-02-23 at 5:47 PM, Kaiga said:

I'm sorry but that's complete cap
Most players (and i'm guessing you) think that the base steel path where an unmoodded frame can facetank for a bit to be "high level" but no, level 300+ with perma debuffs is going to be a genuinely unfun experience. Why? Well...

The thing you can do with old or low survivability frames is to slot shield gating and rolling guard to avoid being one tapped, but those things don't work on nullifiers, disruptors, toxin clouds, eximus, and so on. Health and armor will not save you after a certain point, everyone knows this.
You have to play extremely cravenly even with these setups, which is again, unfun, and probably not the experience DE wanted to have for their flagship endgame content.

I have to disagree here. I would understand if we were talking about endless missions but SP level 300-350 of the murmur faction, particularly when we have a new set of radiation mods that saves us a slot, I think we are overreacting quite a bit. We also 100% do not have to choose these restrictions AND we are even allowed to select how much of a challenge we want by NOT choosing some of the restrictions. 

Guy, I don't get it. This is an optional bonus to the challenge that is geared for those ready for a rare Warframe challenge. It's another SP Circuit, but lower leveled and not endless. You absolutely do not have to partake in it at all but, just like any other video game with a special, elusive reward, the option is there if you feel up to it. Why complain that rare opportunity away...or complain it to a nerf? Is this the actual goal here? If so, then I think you guys are ruining a really cool opportunity for, finally, some sort of bragging rights element in the game. 

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, kamisama85 said:

Every major update always comes with free tickets to the 'How dare you tell me its a skill issue' choir performance.

its not a skill issue! i just dont like playing with anything except my revenant and phenmor.

/s

 

[Skoomaseller]

said it before for the circuit will say again for whatever the #*!% they're cooking up next

if your "challenge" hinges on a dice roll for what you're gonna tackle the mission with, then it is not a challenge, it is a game of luck.

if luck is a challenge to you then idk what to say. enjoy your slop I suppose. 

"B-BUT MUH REVENANT! BUT MUH INCARNON WITH DEVASTATING ATTRITION!" I don't use revenant, not anymore, and I don't use the Zariman incarnons. DE made their bed making that frame and weapons, they can go lie in it. 

Edited February 25 by Skoomaseller

[Misgenesis]

Cant wait for the next great endgame after this one with yet another 100 levels added in response to our power. Though i suppose its a lot less work than redoing years worth of content numbers wise.

[SDGDen]

11 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

said it before for the circuit will say again for whatever the #*!% they're cooking up next

if your "challenge" hinges on a dice roll for what you're gonna tackle the mission with, then it is not a challenge, it is a game of luck.

if luck is a challenge to you then idk what to say. enjoy your slop I suppose. 

"B-BUT MUH REVENANT! BUT MUH INCARNON WITH DEVASTATING ATTRITION!" I don't use revenant, not anymore, and I don't use the Zariman incarnons. DE made their bed making that frame and weapons, they can go lie in it. 

this is true, the problem hinges more on the fact that forcing players to use weaker gear is the only way DE can challenge the playerbase right now without going through significant nerfs.

and the playerbase does not like nerfs, therefore luck-based difficulty it is! 

[Skoomaseller]

1 minute ago, SDGDen said:

this is true, the problem hinges more on the fact that forcing players to use weaker gear is the only way DE can challenge the playerbase right now without going through significant nerfs.

and the playerbase does not like nerfs, therefore luck-based difficulty it is! 

so they end up not challenging anyone anyway. 

[SDGDen]

5 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

so they end up not challenging anyone anyway. 

they end up challenging the people that don't get cheesy gear for the archimedea, but only the subset of those players that will still try.

btw, speaking of which, i already spotted a way to cheese it:

you can re-play deep archimedea as much as you want afterwards, and loot is individual, the challenges are *also* individual.

so you could just have someone with no modifiers on a cheese setup carry a couple people with max modifiers and their RNG'd loadouts through, if the person with the cheese setup already did their run before that, there's no reason for them to run any of the modifiers.

 

[Merkranire]

My god this community’s an insufferable lot that say one thing then do another while acting like they’re looking for that next chance to prove themselves competent at something other than a bunch of numbercrunching

[drnlmza]

16 hours ago, Hexerin said:

We're less than a month away from the patch, what we're seeing is how it's going to work. You don't make fundamental changes to a system when this close to release.

a) Changing the points required to achieve various ranks is hardly "a fundamental change" - it's the sort of late implementation balancing that's expected.

b) This is DE we're talking about, who have a long history of tweaking stuff (sometimes significantly) far closer to release than they really should.

The same people who, in the Devstream announcing Citrine (which was only a couple of weeks before they released her), demonstrated her animations with a placeholder model because the final one wasn't finished and didn't give information on ANY of her abilities because they were, in their own words, still working on finalising them.

The same people who changed Qorvex's passive between Devstream 175 (late November) and his release (mid-December)

 

Why on earth are you so convinced they've set everything in stone here?

 

 

[Aruquae]

On 2024-02-23 at 7:24 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Do you have any non meta weapons forma'd and ready to go? 

I do actually, quite a few. But I know for a fact I’m going to get the vulkar, which I despise. 
What is the point of building great loadouts with weapons you enjoy if you can’t even use them…

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Hexerin said:

We're less than a month away from the patch, what we're seeing is how it's going to work. You don't make fundamental changes to a system when this close to release.

So? It is a devbuild we see, that doesnt mean it is the current build for them, just the current build that has been patched to show. It is also about numbers and wording when it comes to what needs to change if a change is made, that is not "fundamental changes". Ontop of these very obvious things we also have Pablo's words that supersedes whatever is shown, since Pablo's words are the most recent and up to date info regarding this.

[Drachnyn]

I am interested in this game mode but it might suffer from the same problem as circuit where the fun randomized game mode is behind all the boring level grinding.

[TeaHands]

On 2024-02-24 at 5:56 PM, MutoManiac said:

DE wants you to forma everything out the wazoo so they can stay in business. In all fairness, Duviri/circuit forced me to appreciate and use a lot more frames and at the same time making me enjoy the game more. Looking forward to the new stuff.

Also were about to see the introduction of more Tau Shards and more Shards in general. Mix that with Helminth's Subsumes and Invigorations you can get A LOT of usage out of every frame in this game. It's encouraging you to build up your Arsenal, which I personally love. But I can understand why someone wouldn't like that

[Numerounius]

I just want the death requirement removed. It is the only way out of some nasty bugs that can occur. And there are abilities that rely on hitting death so if you accidentally misjudge you shouldn't be punished as a result. You can still make a mode difficult while still having death be an option.

Other than that there are going to be quite a list of issues that I can point out already despite the gamemode not being fleshed out yet:

Why reduce the random generated from 5 to 3? What is the randomness based on? If its based on forma I consider that to be okay, should be upped to four items in each area though.

Are the two keys burned up upon entering or mission competition? And is the randomness rerolled as a result afterwards regardless of status? The keys are not burned up with netracells so there is a chance that may also be the case with the deep. And needing to re-roll is going to sometimes be necessary.

Rewards? I'm glad the rewards are staying the same but getting legendary arcanes after maxxing them out after beating the mods at max level is not the right choice. Adapters and stuff like ayatan sculptures/forma fine but not something that you only need 21 of max.

Squad/MM play? Does that play into randomness?

Edited February 26 by Numerounius

[Aerikx]

21 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Guy, I don't get it. This is an optional bonus to the challenge that is geared for those ready for a rare Warframe challenge. It's another SP Circuit, but lower leveled and not endless. You absolutely do not have to partake in it at all but, just like any other video game with a special, elusive reward, the option is there if you feel up to it. Why complain that rare opportunity away...or complain it to a nerf? Is this the actual goal here? If so, then I think you guys are ruining a really cool opportunity for, finally, some sort of bragging rights element in the game. 

The outrage is because:

They want free and easy legendary loot. 

(It's like the Plague Star folks who claim they want it to be frequently because it's a fun event/experience. When in truth, they just want free forma)

They want Deep Archimedia to be hard enough that casual players are excluded.

(Kind of like how folks wanted Archon Hunts to be hard as hell. But then got salty when the Archons turned out to not be pushovers, requiring players to actually fight them thanks to the supposedily bad mechanic of Damage Attenuation)

All so they can turn around and sell the loot for an exorbitant price to those casual players. Telling them that they need the loot in order to have a chance at clearing the very content that drops it. 

(IE: Raids and the precedent that it's community created.)

Or to be more blunt:

"Please DE, give me a real challenge. I (generalization) want to flex on the community and show just how much better I am than the majority of it." 

*DE creates an actual skill check of a challenge that takes away the Meta 999Billion damage while immune to all forms of damage meta builds* 

"No! Not like that!" 

This reminds me of the rage over the whole hidden 'The Fragmented One' Super Boss. 

People raging because they can't go in, turn damage immune and just face tank the boss. The fight is more about actually dodging attacks, and dps'ing at appropriate times. 

I solo'd the damned thing (as Ash) by memorizing it's attack animations, learning how to dodge it's attacks, and using a mix of Operator/Warframe powers, Rolling Guard, and Adaptation when needed to heal, buff, or block attacks/make up for when I mess up. And I can count on 0 hands how many people have given a crap about the hands on my landing craft. 

In the end I don't see Deep Archimedia getting run very often by the majority of the community.

So eventually DE will lower the difficulty and then it'll be outrage over how easy it is for folks to get legendary arcanes. 

Honestly, I hope to enjoy it. As I enjoy Duviri forcing me to make due with what I'm given. Gives a survival vibe to some content. Forces me to approach fights differently. Instead of "Keep everything dead." Sometimes it's "Stall for time.", "Distract.", "Everyone take a nap.", etc. 

[Agall]

On 2024-02-23 at 7:10 PM, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

Tell me you've never seen the level cap without telling me you've never seen the level cap

There's many ways to get to level cap. Almost any build can be 'viable' at level cap with Unairu, since that can eliminate the need for immunity, armor/shield strip, etc. Almost any weapon with enough mods on it can do enough damage on a stripped level cap enemy.

The game really isn't that difficult, regardless of 'getting good', someone who understands the base mechanics of the game can flourish with almost any build.

As someone who plays on both the most ridiculous top spec'd PC setup possible and a Steam Deck, it is dramatically more difficult to reach 'skill cap' on a controller compared to mouse+keyboard. I would argue its not even obtainable, even for the best player on a controller. It simply doesn't provide fine enough control compared to a mouse, especially with the intensity of the movement mechanics. I could see though how someone on a controller might think the game is difficult enough to think there's not nearly unlimited combinations of builds capable of being 'viable' at level cap.

 

On 2024-02-23 at 7:23 PM, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

I simply pointed out YOUR proclamation that any frame with any weapon can be used in any high level content.

So you're basically saying Inaros with a Stug is viable "high" level, correct?

Entirely viable, most definitely will use Unairu though. You also get 2 firearm and 1 melee slot for a reason.

Edited February 26 by Agall

[Kaiga]

On 2024-02-25 at 8:53 AM, kamisama85 said:

Every major update always comes with free tickets to the 'How dare you tell me its a skill issue' choir performance.

I don't think anyone here, particularly since levelcap is being discussed, claims that this new content is too difficult.

Instead, the whole thesis is that RNG deciding how much fun you get to have each week is bad, boring design, especially when the arsenal from 5+ years ago still remains uncompetitive in modern content. You, grandmaster, should know that more than anyone.

[Aevire]

Another major content update that strongly incentivizes and borderline punishes players for not having enough slots. Oh, whoops, I'm a f2p player who's been playing for less than a year and I don't have any of the weapons the Archimedea wants me to get. Guess I just can't get the highest tier reward! Whoopsie! I think people complaining that they can't bring Stug or whatever to level 300 normal enemies is kind of missing the point. Assuming Deep Archimedea don't lock you into playing solo, just have one player bring Unairu and one player bring Madurai and clear your way through the map with Operator if you have to. In my opinion the problem is mostly that if you roll Ambassador, Sporothrix, Envoy for the week, and you don't have any of those weapons or slots for them, you just can't meet that requirement without either selling one of your weapons that - if you do have limited slots - you've probably invested a lot of time and effort in, or having to buy weapon slots for platinum and farm one of those weapons before the end of the week. I get the intention here but without any option for loaners this is as much a reward for having the slots to own potentially off-meta gear as it is for using that gear. Not super interested in people complaining they have to use suboptimal weapons because they just don't like them - sorry you can't bring viral slash tenet arca plasmor, revenant, kuva nukor, glaive prime to every single node in the game, guess you'll have to try something new for once - but in a game where owning every item both necessitates farming (or buying, I guess) every item and buying the slots to hold them all, this gamemode does feel hostile to players who don't own a lot of slots.

[schilds]

5 hours ago, Kaiga said:

particularly since levelcap is being discussed

roflmao

People bring up "level cap" all the time. It means nothing. It's a flex and a putdown. What it tells us is the person bringing it up has nothing else of substance to say, because if they did then they would not need to hallucinate garbage about other people they don't know.

There's some severe cognitive dissonance going on here. If *difficulty* isn't the issue then why would the uncontroversial statement, that all frames are viable, even get you all hot and bothered?

Edited February 27 by schilds

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, Aerikx said:

The outrage is because:

They want free and easy legendary loot. 

(It's like the Plague Star folks who claim they want it to be frequently because it's a fun event/experience. When in truth, they just want free forma)

They want Deep Archimedia to be hard enough that casual players are excluded.

(Kind of like how folks wanted Archon Hunts to be hard as hell. But then got salty when the Archons turned out to not be pushovers, requiring players to actually fight them thanks to the supposedily bad mechanic of Damage Attenuation)

All so they can turn around and sell the loot for an exorbitant price to those casual players. Telling them that they need the loot in order to have a chance at clearing the very content that drops it. 

(IE: Raids and the precedent that it's community created.)

Or to be more blunt:

"Please DE, give me a real challenge. I (generalization) want to flex on the community and show just how much better I am than the majority of it." 

*DE creates an actual skill check of a challenge that takes away the Meta 999Billion damage while immune to all forms of damage meta builds* 

"No! Not like that!" 

This reminds me of the rage over the whole hidden 'The Fragmented One' Super Boss. 

People raging because they can't go in, turn damage immune and just face tank the boss. The fight is more about actually dodging attacks, and dps'ing at appropriate times. 

I solo'd the damned thing (as Ash) by memorizing it's attack animations, learning how to dodge it's attacks, and using a mix of Operator/Warframe powers, Rolling Guard, and Adaptation when needed to heal, buff, or block attacks/make up for when I mess up. And I can count on 0 hands how many people have given a crap about the hands on my landing craft. 

In the end I don't see Deep Archimedia getting run very often by the majority of the community.

So eventually DE will lower the difficulty and then it'll be outrage over how easy it is for folks to get legendary arcanes. 

Honestly, I hope to enjoy it. As I enjoy Duviri forcing me to make due with what I'm given. Gives a survival vibe to some content. Forces me to approach fights differently. Instead of "Keep everything dead." Sometimes it's "Stall for time.", "Distract.", "Everyone take a nap.", etc. 

I've never seen a nail get hit in the head so hard and so precisely. You've spelled out the pattern of those types of players pretty clearly, and it's a shame that the cycle never ends. I hope it finally does though.

I just wish they all would quit whining how DE issues a challenge. Long time players claim how easy the game is and how they can level cap, but are exposed to have only been able to rely on meta builds. I mean, where are all of the "this game is super easy" players? A challenge is coming and you guys are backing out or waiting for DE to feel bad and nerf it due to these poor excuses?