Nourish isn't the problem

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-02-23 at 6:57 PM, UnstarPrime said:

If Nourish wasn't a problem, then there'd be a more equitable usage spread among those 15 abilities.  But it was a clear outlier.

Which isn't to say that there isn't also an issue where certain Helminth abilities were dead on arrival; there is!  But that's a different problem, with a different solution.

We shouldn't pretend like there's only one problem with the Helminth system that will require one solution to fix.  The reality is that it's a complex system and balancing it will require multiple different kinds of adjustments from multiple different angles. 

There appears to be usage equity among the 35 or so helminth abilities that dont get used at all. (At least relatively).

 

[baked]

The fact that Nourish was one of the worst subsumes pre-Grendel rework AND it was already a nerfed subsume, and then post-rework became BUFFED, astounds me. It's like DE forgot that it was Grendel's subsume?

It pains me that Nourish is so widely used because it puts Grendel in the same camp as Sevagoth and Hildryn where players will just ignore the warframe it comes from because it's so much stronger on any other warframe. I'm glad to see it nerfed especially because it could have just one of the current effects (viral explosions, viral damage buff to weapons, energy gain multiplier) and it'd be a widely used subsume with benefits for most Warframes, and it currently has every buff it gives Grendel and it doesn't even need an enemy inside you to cast it as a subsume!

Of course there are other subsumed abilities that could be better, but I don't think that's got anything to do with Nourish. No other abilities can do what Nourish does, so post-numbers-nerf it'll still do what it does, just a little worse. It'll be like Blood Rush going from 60% to 40%, or CO going from 120% to 80%. Everybody's still going to use it, their numbers will just be a little lower. I reckon DE should've never put buffed Nourish into Helminth and just axed 1-2 of its features from the get-go. Energy buff OR Viral buff OR the Viral explosions on enemies, 1-2 of those are plenty strong regardless of numbers.

[SDGDen]

14 hours ago, ValtrPrime said:

If most of constructs are 0 forma, then we're not really in the same line. is like a note on the side of a cookie.

my WF builds don't have any forma because they don't need it. i like the extra challenge of optimizing for level 200 steel path enemies *without* use of forma. 

"we're not on the same level" my ass. i simply don't *need* to use six forma's on a frame to get great performance out of them. that's a higher tier of optimization than any 6 forma build. 

[Nira]

The problem in my eyes is a lack of flexibility and imagination in a percentage of the player base, and an over-reliance on content creators for making builds. I've met more than one that will tell me my Harrow build is bad because I haven't replaced Thurible with Nourish like Knightmare Frame told them to.

But also what Xzorn said about the strength of viral status. I'd happily see that whacked with the nerf hammer. 

Edited February 25 by Nira

[SDGDen]

53 minutes ago, Nira said:

The problem in my eyes is a lack of flexibility and imagination in a percentage of the player base, and an over-reliance on content creators for making builds. I've met more than one that will tell me my Harrow build is bad because I haven't replaced Thurible with Nourish like Knightmare Frame told them to.

But also what Xzorn said about the strength of viral status. I'd happily see that whacked with the nerf hammer. 

honestly, call me old-fashioned but i tell all the newbies i shepherd to NEVER copy a build off the internet. learn the mechanics of the game and tune your own builds.

this is also how most of my builds dont end up with gloom, eclipse, roar or nourish. there are so many other subsumes that are quite powerful in niche situations. anyone tried tempest barrage with a couple of emerald archon shards on *any* frame with decent energy regen? it's actually kinda insane on limbo because of how abilities interact with the rift, and tempest barrage can overlap as many zones as you want.

[Berzerkules]

On 2024-02-23 at 11:38 PM, SDGDen said:

people got too used to their practically infinite energy so they could spam AOE abilities to their heart's content.

spamming AoE abilities is fun huh?

7 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

anyone tried tempest barrage with a couple of emerald archon shards on *any* frame with decent energy regen? it's actually kinda insane on limbo because of how abilities interact with the rift, and tempest barrage can overlap as many zones as you want.

 

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

spamming AoE abilities is fun huh?

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

i never denied it was! the build i mentioned does not make any use of nourish though, i'm only running energy nexus on my limbo and i usually don't even use zenurik.

also, unlike some of the things being spammed through the use of nourish's energy boost, tempest barrage is a 25 energy ability, it's *meant* to be cast frequently. 

 

[Berzerkules]

22 hours ago, SDGDen said:

i never denied it was! the build i mentioned does not make any use of nourish though, i'm only running energy nexus on my limbo and i usually don't even use zenurik.

also, unlike some of the things being spammed through the use of nourish's energy boost, tempest barrage is a 25 energy ability, it's *meant* to be cast frequently. 

 

IDK where you got the idea that low base energy drain of an ability means it's supposed to be spammed.

Look at Nova's 1st ability null star, you literally can't recast it until charges run out(unless you use neutron star). If you use molecular prime with molecular fission augment you basically never have to recast her 1. You end up kind of spamming her most energy hungry ability to maintain her least. 

I just found it funny that one comment seemed to be condemning AoE ability spam and another comment in the same thread you suggest players use AoE ability spam. 

Nourish is good and all but there are so many ways to trivialize the energy economy in this game. No matter what DE does to nourish players will spam abilities just as much as they ever did. 

I just hope we get to keep the free viral for full strip green shard corrosive viral primer builds

Edited February 26 by Berzerkules

[SDGDen]

14 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

IDK where you got the idea that low base energy drain of an ability means it's supposed to be spammed.

Look at Nova's 1st ability null star, you literally can't recast it until charges run out(unless you use neutron star). If you use molecular prime with molecular fission augment you basically never have to recast her 1. You end up kind of spamming her most energy hungry ability to maintain her least. 

I just found it funny that one comment seemed to be condemning AoE ability spam and another comment in the same thread you suggest players use AoE ability spam. 

Nourish is good and all but there are so many ways to trivialize the energy economy in this game. No matter what DE does to nourish players will spam abilities just as much as they ever did. 

I just hope we get to keep the free viral for full strip green shard corrosive viral primer builds

it's something called "basic game design", you can design an ability to be more or less spamable based on the amount of mana (in this case energy) it costs to cast. this isn't the only factor involving it, which is where your argument comes from.

for example, lets look at just instant-cast abilities (meaning ones that do not have a duration and are immediately recastable).

mag's crush costs 100 energy, compared to volt's shock which costs 25, in most circumstances you'll have the energy to cast shock much quicker than you have the energy to cast crush. crush is not meant to be spammed to the same degree as volt's shock. because of this, shock is also less effective compared to crush.

you can almost compared them to having a cooldown, 25 energy abilities frequently would have no cooldown or a very low one (2 to 4 seconds) while frequently, 100 energy abilities would have a much higher cooldown (think 10 to 20 seconds)

sure, null star cannot be recast until the charges run out, however it's effectively a no-cooldown ability. when it goes down you'll pretty much always be able to get it back up immediately.

her 4, meanwhile, isn't really meant to be spammed, it's meant to be cast once every 10 to 20 seconds. this is also how the augment for it is designed, since it procs on killing primed enemies, you only need to recast her 4 when you need to prime new enemies, which you only really need to do a couple seconds after the expanding sphere that primes enemies dissapears.

you can also see this lower cost = intended to be spammed design in some 4th abilities: ember's inferno and ash's bladestorm have a pretty low cost *per enemy they target*, this allows these abilities to be spammed at smaller groups for a much lower cost compared to for example saryn's miasma (which costs a full 100 energy even if you only hit one target with it) 

 

of course, none of that matters in the current meta since it's *way* too easy to simply have infinite energy, but that *is* how the game design behind it works.

 

[Drachnyn]

Am 24.2.2024 um 02:33 schrieb CrownOfShadows:

I agree with Pablo it often feels like you just should use nourish no matter what.

It's only 1 stack of viral, i think that's 100% boost

But a big part of it is also that so many other helminth abilities are just bad. What other abilities are even able to compete in the first place, not just with nourish but with the baseline abilities you are trying to replace? Roar and Sunder are easy answers but I dont think many others exist. There are so many bad helminth abilities that I am not convinced nerfing nourish will do anything to its usage stat at all.

My impression is as usual DE does want this system to be super powerful they just dont want helminth to be the nourish machine. Ideally the greatest benefit of subsuming should go to players who have it maxed out with every frame fed. I dont think this nerf can achieve that.

I'm not even necessarily arguing against nerfing nourish mind you. The ability is clearly extremely powerful on most frames and even with a reduction in viral damage and energy multiplier it is still going to easily compete for the best helminth ability.

[Berzerkules]

20 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

it's something called "basic game design", you can design an ability to be more or less spamable based on the amount of mana (in this case energy) it costs to cast. this isn't the only factor involving it, which is where your argument comes from.

for example, lets look at just instant-cast abilities (meaning ones that do not have a duration and are immediately recastable).

mag's crush costs 100 energy, compared to volt's shock which costs 25, in most circumstances you'll have the energy to cast shock much quicker than you have the energy to cast crush. crush is not meant to be spammed to the same degree as volt's shock. because of this, shock is also less effective compared to crush.

you can almost compared them to having a cooldown, 25 energy abilities frequently would have no cooldown or a very low one (2 to 4 seconds) while frequently, 100 energy abilities would have a much higher cooldown (think 10 to 20 seconds)

sure, null star cannot be recast until the charges run out, however it's effectively a no-cooldown ability. when it goes down you'll pretty much always be able to get it back up immediately.

her 4, meanwhile, isn't really meant to be spammed, it's meant to be cast once every 10 to 20 seconds. this is also how the augment for it is designed, since it procs on killing primed enemies, you only need to recast her 4 when you need to prime new enemies, which you only really need to do a couple seconds after the expanding sphere that primes enemies dissapears.

you can also see this lower cost = intended to be spammed design in some 4th abilities: ember's inferno and ash's bladestorm have a pretty low cost *per enemy they target*, this allows these abilities to be spammed at smaller groups for a much lower cost compared to for example saryn's miasma (which costs a full 100 energy even if you only hit one target with it) 

 

of course, none of that matters in the current meta since it's *way* too easy to simply have infinite energy, but that *is* how the game design behind it works.

 

getting lectured on basic game design by someone that doesn't forma their frames is also pretty funny

On 2024-02-24 at 11:29 PM, SDGDen said:

my WF builds don't have any forma because they don't need it.

 

[Corvid]

6 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

getting lectured on basic game design by someone that doesn't forma their frames is also pretty funny

 

Did you miss the part where they said they didn't need to forma their builds, not that they were unable to. In other words, it's a deliberate choice on their part to curate their gameplay experience and push their optimisation skills.

[SDGDen]

9 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

getting lectured on basic game design by someone that doesn't forma their frames is also pretty funny

 

what do those two things have to do with eachother?

first, if your argument is "not formaing your frames makes you a bad player", that's incorrect. in fact i'd say being able to tune your own builds to the point where they don't *need* forma makes you exceptionally good at buildcrafting, much better than the people that just copy builds off of overframe or youtube.

and if your argument is "if you're a bad player you can't understand game design" that is also wrong. someone who studied game design but never played any games is likely to know more about game design than someone who played tons of games but never studied.

lastly, if instead you're arguing "you don't forma so you don't understand the game's design", that's also incorrect. i have *two* 8 forma lato's that i did for fun, just because i don't need any forma on my frames does not mean i don't forma or i don't understand the design decisions behind the game.

also: currently have around 50 forma sitting in my inventory for future use on weapons, farmed 100 of them during the last plague star. so yeah.

 

 

this is literally just a strawman. 

 

 

Edited February 26 by SDGDen

[Karyst]

On 2024-02-24 at 2:45 AM, Waeleto said:

Before nerfing nourish can you PLEASE consider that there are 50+ helminth abilities with 15 AT MOST being used ? nourish is used so much because it allows for new builds and for certain warframes to be more comfortable to play it's also the only really versatile helminth ability 

Before nerfing nourish give us other options, look at how many helminth abilities that are USELESS and the game design will OBVIOUSLY push players to use what is better and more versatile over something very niche and bad, you can't be seriously be expecting me to use banish or rest&rage over nourish or eclipse ?

The problem here isn't nourish the problem is how bad other helminth abilities are and after the nerf to nourish/eclipse we'll see roar be next in line then gloom then pillage until the helminth system will be completely irrelevant

And after that, we'll get incarnon helminth that will be relevant. See the pattern yet?

[Aruquae]

I nourish nerf complaint 

Who would’ve thought this would happen…

Imo it’s completely fine, nourish did a lot for a single ability. It also “isn’t going to affect Grendel,” which is a bonus. 

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

what do those two things have to do with eachother?

first, if your argument is "not formaing your frames makes you a bad player", that's incorrect. in fact i'd say being able to tune your own builds to the point where they don't *need* forma makes you exceptionally good at buildcrafting, much better than the people that just copy builds off of overframe or youtube.

and if your argument is "if you're a bad player you can't understand game design" that is also wrong. someone who studied game design but never played any games is likely to know more about game design than someone who played tons of games but never studied.

lastly, if instead you're arguing "you don't forma so you don't understand the game's design", that's also incorrect. i have *two* 8 forma lato's that i did for fun, just because i don't need any forma on my frames does not mean i don't forma or i don't understand the design decisions behind the game.

 

this is literally just a strawman. 

 

I didn't say you were a bad player, I just find it odd that you don't forma your frames. I started putting potato and forma into frames when I got my first primes. It's like the natural progression in games to upgrade your gear if possible. 

Making the decision to challenge yourself by gimping your potential from the beginning of a game is just something I would never do so I don't understand it. Willingly not adding forma to frames is completely ignoring a basic part of this games design that effects how players use their abilities. Forgoing that aspect of the game then telling others how abilities are supposed to work just doesn't make sense to me. We aren't coming from the same place, our in game experience just isn't the same and our expectations aren't going to align. 

Like when I'm not playing games I'm riding bikes, really nice bicycles. I've ridden a huffy and I've ridden bikes that cost as much as a motorcycle. If someone that has only ever ridden a huffy starts telling me about the ride quality of their 20y/o huffy and how it's all the bike anyone needs I'm going to be a little skeptical. Like sure, the guy can ride. He's been doing it long enough that he can get around on that thing but if he only knew.

Oh yeah nourish

I bet DE is going to pull some eclipse switcheroo on us and completely scuff nourish into oblivion. 

Edited February 26 by Berzerkules

[_Anise_]

On 2024-02-24 at 12:45 AM, Waeleto said:

Nourish isn't the problem

there is also honestly a LOT of fluff in the helminth system,

did it really need 4 different abilities that generate energy ? who is looking for energy economy from it and taking nerfed duration dispensor, lycath's hunt where the only effect is to drop health / energy (+ ammo) when they can take nourish/fractured blast for extra free damage with viral / bleed while also making energy / health?

same with group up there are a bunch of different "grouping like" tools like more choice than you would realistically need but again some shine though as obvious choices and others have weird limitations like larva range nerf, does -4 meters really make a difference to the balance? I have seen people suggest to not use it because other skills have unnerfed range like ensnare just giving effectivly the same thing and 30 meters before modding with no nerf

there are several different decoy like abilities in there though they do all have slightly different utility

tldr

I kinda agree with the topic, the problem wasn't nourish its lack of other compelling alternatives, which could be achieved either by putting more interesting different abilities from the same warframes in or by buffing base versions of theses helminth abilities (without augments)

in the case of dispensor maybe it zaps nearby enemies with electricity (and remove the pointless duration nerf that exists for no reason) so it becomes it's own little soft cc shock mote ? then maybe it dosn't look so bad compared to its alternatives ?

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Nourish is a problem, "just buff everything else" won't help at all, you balance the game with nerfs and buffs and no amount of number changes is going to make people start using other abilities if Nourish is left untouched.

This ability just does too much for a helminth option

[Raikh]

Nourish is probably a little too good right now, so nerfing it within reason would technically be appropriate. However, this doesn't really help balance the Helminth system in any meaningful way. A lot of abilities just aren't worth taking and some are even what their original Warframe is actively subsuming away themselves.

Balance adjustments for the top end choices only start mattering when plausible alternatives even exist and right now, they often do not. Depending on the gravity of the upcoming Nourish nerf it will probably even the scales a little more among the top 5-10 , but do absolutely nothing for the rest. Only if they gut it completely will people hop to the next best energy generating Helminth ability and thats not creating more compelling choices either.

Edited February 26 by Raikh

[_Anise_]

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Nourish is a problem, "just buff everything else" won't help at all,

is it even a problem? what is wrong with more people choosing something ? is it upsetting the balance of the game and braking something ? probably not its just the most appealing choice ?

Pablo basically said "I dont want someone to come along and go, well I like this but its wrong to put this on because nourish is better" (said no one except Pablo)

they are literally nerfing it not for balance but because more people choose it , the two are not the same, they can make less people choose it by providing compelling alternatives.

Edited February 26 by _Anise_

[RichardKam]

9分钟前 , Raikh 说:

Nourish is probably a little too good right now, so nerfing it within reason would technically be appropriate. However, this doesn't really help balance the Helminth system in any meaningful way. A lot of abilities just aren't worth taking and some are even what their original Warframe is actively subsuming away themselves.

Balance adjustments for the top end choices only start mattering when plausible alternatives even exist and right now, they often do not. Depending on the gravity of the upcoming Nourish nerf it will probably even the scales a little more among the top 5-10 , but do absolutely nothing for the rest. Only if they gut it completely will people hop to the next best energy generating Helminth ability and thats not creating more compelling choices either.

I do not think there should be a balance helminth system anyway. Helminth is optional, not mandatory. If a frame is working nicely there is no reason to engage helminth. There are over 50 helminth abilities, of course some will be more useful than the others. The usage will never be balance.

A major advantage of Nourish is that it literally thrown the energy economy away. Zenurik with Nourish will be more than sufficient to fuel the most energy hungry frame. A minor advantage is the burst viral as crowd control, which boost survivability. Viral proc on the other hand is relatively minor when we have panzer. No other helminth ability gives you so many good stuff in one package.

[_Anise_]

12 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

If a frame is working nicely there is no reason to engage helminth

I don't have a helminth on octavia or dagath and they feel just fine, the few places I actually used nourish were on a hgih energy economy quick thinking build to make a frame really tanky, worked but felt a bit boring and was still susceptible to high damage spikes and the other was on a saryn build someone recommended for the damage portion not the energy, none of this felt broken enough to justify nerfing.

also on general topic this ability is already gutted by having the healing portion removed, how much more are they going to do to it ?

Edited February 26 by _Anise_

[Waeleto]

10 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

No other helminth ability gives you so many good stuff in one package.

That's exactly my point, the usage rate of nourish will OF COURSE be high when there are so many helminth abilities are awful, some warframes have their worst ability be a helminth while others have their best, there will always be a number 1 ability over the others and while i can justify the nerf of thermal thunder because of harrow/garuda i can't justify a nerf to nourish 

[Raikh]

3 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

I do not think there should be a balance helminth system anyway. Helminth is optional, not mandatory

It being optional doesn't mean it shouldn't be somewhat balanced to offer interesting choices. Ofc balance would never be perfect but there should atleast be an attempt to introduce useful abilities into the system, rather than abilities the Warframe seeks to replace or ignore themselves, which is also an indicator that something may not be quite right with the original Warframe and thus hinting to a larger issue.

7 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

No other helminth ability gives you so many good stuff in one package.

You can't really argue Helminth balance is irrelevant and turn around and say a Helminth ability is too powerful. If balance doesn't matter at all then something being way too strong doesn't matter either. Otherwise I agree that Nourish in its current state is probably too good but on DEs terms they have been balancing more around popularity than straight up power and if most Helminth choices are inherently uncompelling nerfing Nourish to a reasonable level will probably not have a notable impact on that end.

[Drachnyn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb _Anise_:

is it even a problem? what is wrong with more people choosing something ? is it upsetting the balance of the game and braking something ? NO

Pablo basically said "I dont want someone to come along and go, well I like this but its wrong to put this on because nourish is better" (said no one except Pablo)

they are literally nerfing it not for balance but because more people choose it they are not the same.

Balance has been thrown out of the game long ago. DE has little else left other than usage stats. Grinding out new content more to get an extra copy of the new frame is desireable for DE. People not doing that because nourish is so powerful is not as desireable for DE.