Nourish isn't the problem

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Cyrefy said:

The reason nourish is so used is because you can make 90% of weapons that normally have no use because they are extremely weak, actually usable, in addition to opening up space for mods allowing us to use other mods that we never use or even other arcanes that we also never use, that is, nourishment allows us to play with the useless things they create, mark my words, if the use of nourish decreases, so will the variety of mods, arcanes and weapons.

While I think you're right to a degree, and I would expect things like Dispatch Overdrive to get used less, my guess is even deletion of viral on Nourish wouldn't impact variety very drastically.   I think the majority of people use that Viral to supplement weapons they'd be using anyway, either because of fondness or feel or power or whatever.   It'll affect modding variety, but there are other ways to offload viral.  And to the extent that priming weapons get used more, that's variety and somewhat richer gameplay IMO.  There could be other positive effects on variety too, if not directly on variety as it pertains to the ways weapons are used.

And that's all assuming the viral weapon buff gets removed.  Which seems possible but I don't think is at all a given.

[Trollocaustic]

On 2024-02-23 at 9:04 PM, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

But now, it's like a black hole, trying to drag in any new player while compressing the veterans at the core into a density so high that their concerns could never see the light of day.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think this sentiment is true when you take a step back and look at the state of the game without bias or sunken cost...

[PR1D3]

The more i read in this thread the more I think many of the problems people have that Nourish “fixes” (honestly a lot of game issues in general) is player inflicted. A combination of:

1. Stop making crappy builds with a lot of downsides/fail conditions 

2. Stop trying to force certain items into roles they normally can’t do or be comfortable that they’re not going to be as effective as something intrinsically made for it

3. Squad up and have a support frame like we used to do in the early days before everyone wanted to be the Alpha/the guy who gets ALL the kills, and cover for each other’s weaknesses. Do co-op strategies in the co-op game

[Waeleto]

2 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Squad up and have a support frame like we used to do in the early days before everyone wanted to be the Alpha/the guy who gets ALL the kills, and cover for each other’s weaknesses. Do co-op strategies in the co-op game

This one will NEVER happen and you know it

[PR1D3]

12 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

This one will NEVER happen and you know it

I know. It’s fine. I’m fully aware that most of you all are stuck on stupid. It should come with consequences and the demands that the game gets changed/rebalanced in a way that accommodates said stupidity should be ignored by the devs no matter how much REE’ing happens in the forums.

[Cyrefy]

7 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

I know. It’s fine. I’m fully aware that most of you all are stuck on stupid. It should come with consequences and the demands that the game gets changed/rebalanced in a way that accommodates said stupidity should be ignored by the devs no matter how much REE’ing happens in the forums.

Warframe has been a game for years focused on fun not challenge, do you want them to completely change the game's vision? it's because? just because you like other games and want them all to be the same?
This is the problem of several people on this forum, you simply ask for a complete restructuring of what makes warframe warframe

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

26 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

This one will NEVER happen and you know it

It's happened plenty of times just in Pugs. An example is someone brought a wide range hildryn to ESO once to give our team energy orbs at the start of the round. 

Did they need to bring hildryn? No. Did they specifically need to have the smarts to know how ESO works (resetting energy) and accommodate us? No. But they made the run smoother.

[PR1D3]

3 minutes ago, Cyrefy said:

Warframe has been a game for years focused on fun not challenge, do you want them to completely change the game's vision? it's because? just because you like other games and want them all to be the same?
This is the problem of several people on this forum, you simply ask for a complete restructuring of what makes warframe warframe

Don’t even try and pull that crap on me. The devs have constantly made changes to maintain some type of challenge and anything that trivializes the game to unhealthy degrees it’s dealt with. Don’t start with “muh power fantasy is my fun” crap and especially try to rewrite history that your god complex gameplay desires has been what WF has been since day one.

[Cyrefy]

1 minute ago, PR1D3 said:

Don’t even try and pull that crap on me. The devs have constantly made changes to maintain some type of challenge and anything that trivializes the game to unhealthy degrees it’s dealt with. Don’t start with “muh power fantasy is my fun” crap and especially try to rewrite history that your god complex gameplay desires has been what WF has been since day one.

oh ok could you tell me one challenging thing about warframe?

[RichardKam]

5小时前 , Cyrefy 说:

I know this may sound ironic, because saying that something that is being used more than all other options is bringing variety can be a little weird.

Look, it's not whether you can get from point A to point B, but how many WAYS you can get from point A to point B.

I think this would be easily resolved if the arcanes were separated into categories, thus allowing us to use more arcanes in warframes, for example.

There are several things that we don't use in the game, some of them we don't use because we can't give up some other mods or arcanes, I think it's a waste, because some augments for example would be very "fun" but not "useful", you know?

Why not balance it?

I just wanted to say that nourish being at the top demonstrates the size of our need to use other things, most of the time for pure fun.
 
Or we're just tired of using the same mods, the same arcanes, the same everything.

My experience with nourish was that I was able to build with much more freedom, making builds that would only be possible with specific rivens or warframes.

I would really like them to make this variety maintain itself without us needing nourish.

And you don't need to flex, Warframe is an easy game.

Then I have to assume your experience with nourish is a bit one-sided. Nourish viral is the least of the concern, to be very honest. Panzer foxy can instantly stack 10 viral on every living organisms in 5km diameter since like 2020. If you argue with the viral retaliate burst then I might agree with you.

What's unique about nourish is the energy multiplier. It is the only ability and the only subsumable ability in the entire game that multiply your energy gain, which scale with strength up to 3x to 4x or more, regardless of the source, may it be zenurik, emergence dissipate, energy orb, etc. It literally throws the entire energy economy out of the window.

Your logic is a bit contradictory as well when you state Warframe is an easy game but somehow people are afraid to swap out one or two mods? With today's powercreep? I don't get it.

Weapon wise, those who stick with meta will keep using meta, and those who like to experiment will keep experimenting with other weapons. Nourish or not does not matter.

[RichardKam]

6分钟前 , PR1D3 说:

Don’t start with “muh power fantasy is my fun” crap and especially try to rewrite history that your god complex gameplay desires has been what WF has been since day one.

"Well between challenges and power fantasy, we are more incline towards power fantasy because it is more fun." - [DE]Pablo, DevStream or something.

Sorry buddy.

[Cyrefy]

28 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Then I have to assume your experience with nourish is a bit one-sided. Nourish viral is the least of the concern, to be very honest. Panzer foxy can instantly stack 10 viral on every living organisms in 5km diameter since like 2020. If you argue with the viral retaliate burst then I might agree with you.

What's unique about nourish is the energy multiplier. It is the only ability and the only subsumable ability in the entire game that multiply your energy gain, which scale with strength up to 3x to 4x or more, regardless of the source, may it be zenurik, emergence dissipate, energy orb, etc. It literally throws the entire energy economy out of the window.

Your logic is a bit contradictory as well when you state Warframe is an easy game but somehow people are afraid to swap out one or two mods? With today's powercreep? I don't get it.

Weapon wise, those who stick with meta will keep using meta, and those who like to experiment will keep experimenting with other weapons. Nourish or not does not matter.

So you don't understand what I'm trying to say...

I loved the possibilities that Nourish brought.

Because I was able to use arcanes and weapons that were previously very weak, especially single target weapons.

Nourish just showed the problem.

get it?

The problem with those who have things that I don't use, and I always end up using the same builds and the same mods and arcanes.

I just wish there was a way to be able to use these things without the need for nourish.

Even because I don't like nourish, it's horrible to have to give up a system like helminth to have possibilities for changes in other places.

For me, building goes beyond building a warframe or a weapon, I have a passion for creating synergies, I like making multiple things work together.

I don't know, I think it's funny that a comment above talks about a god complex, when anyone who wants a challenge just wants to prove themselves a god after completing it, when in truth, just like any souls like, once you know your enemies' movements it becomes easy, so you were never good, you just memorized the movements

Edited March 6 by Cyrefy

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

"Well between challenges and power fantasy, we are more incline towards power fantasy because it is more fun." - [DE]Pablo, DevStream or something.

Sorry buddy.

Some people on the forums legitimately think warframe is some sad, broken game that needs to be fixed.

It shows how mediocre the populace is, they have to hammer down any nail that sticks up, because they can't handle real beauty!

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

"Well between challenges and power fantasy, we are more incline towards power fantasy because it is more fun." - [DE]Pablo, DevStream or something.

Sorry buddy.

As the old saying goes, "actions speak louder than words" and DE's actions almost consistently run contrary to those words.

[trst]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

"Well between challenges and power fantasy, we are more incline towards power fantasy because it is more fun." - [DE]Pablo, DevStream or something.

Sorry buddy.

Challenge and power fantasy isn't mutually exclusive. As well "inclined towards" doesn't mean they exclusively design for power fantasy. Plus if it was literally all they cared about then we wouldn't see player nerfs, enemy buffs, overguard, damage attenuation, ability resistance, status immunity, defense missions, or this very thread.

Like instead of DE looking at Nourish's usage and thinking "oh that's crowding out other options, we need to fix that by nerfing it" they'd instead say "oh players like free energy with a damage buff? Lets add more of that then!".

[Hypertion]

Nourish having the same damage bonus and energy regen as when grendel wields it is kinda op. the other abilitys in this camp, Eclipse, Roar, all see a weakend version when used by other frames... it makes sense for Nourish to have the same downside..

 

it will still give extra energy, and it will still give you a free viral bonus to weapons allowing you skip viral in your build. Viral is soo good atm that even a 75% reduction in the viral buff will do effectively nothing to keep people from choosing it. you need the slightest bit of viral procs anyways.

[Monolake]

9 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

3. Squad up and have a support frame like we used to do in the early days before everyone wanted to be the Alpha/the guy who gets ALL the kills, and cover for each other’s weaknesses. Do co-op strategies in the co-op game

Too bad its not a coop game anymore since DE been systematically neglecting or straight up killing coop and everyone plays it like a solo game

[SirZorba]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Some people on the forums legitimately think warframe is some sad, broken game that needs to be fixed.

It shows how mediocre the populace is, they have to hammer down any nail that sticks up, because they can't handle real beauty!

Because it is. Rampant unchecked "power fantasy" without any meaningful opportunity cost/limiting factors or even the illusion of resistance from the enemy just turns the game into...mowing the lawn. Mowing the lawn is boring.

Self-limiting by unequipping mods or staying in endless missions well beyond the point of intended gameplay isn't an answer either. That just shows a failure to make an engaging baseline experience. What's the point of having uber godlike equipment if there's nothing to use it on? There's only so far they can go on scaling the base difficulty of content to keep up with the power players have. I think it's long since passed that point because the new "endgame" content in the next update, the Deep Archimedea, limits your arsenal to a handful of randomly picked options so you don't just chew through it with your Torid Incarnon in ~5 minutes. There's really not much else they can do to keep some level of sanity in the difficulty without such designs now.

Edited March 6 by SirZorba

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, SirZorba said:

Because it is. Rampant unchecked "power fantasy" without any meaningful opportunity cost/limiting factors or even the illusion of resistance from the enemy just turns the game into...mowing the lawn. Mowing the lawn is boring.

Self-limiting by unequipping mods or staying in endless missions well beyond the point of intended gameplay isn't an answer either. That just shows a failure to make an engaging baseline experience. What's the point of having uber godlike equipment if there's nothing to use it on? There's only so far they can go on scaling the base difficulty of content to keep up with the power players have. I think it's long since passed that point because the new "endgame" content in the next update, the Deep Archimedea, limits your arsenal to a handful of randomly picked options so you don't just chew through it with your Torid Incarnon in ~5 minutes. There's really not much else they can do to keep some level of sanity in the difficulty without such designs now.

And some people like to fish or fashion or decorate in action games....You have the freedom to play what you want, including picking another game that fits your personal desires. Welcome to the big wide world. 

If there are over 300,000 different species of beetle...that means there's gonna be a lot of different stuff on the planet.

 

[-ShadowRadiance-]

10 hours ago, Waeleto said:

This one will NEVER happen and you know it

But we can DREAM

[Venus-Venera]

Am 24.2.2024 um 01:45 schrieb Waeleto:

Before nerfing nourish can you PLEASE consider that there are 50+ helminth abilities with 15 AT MOST being used ? nourish is used so much because it allows for new builds and for certain warframes to be more comfortable to play it's also the only really versatile helminth ability 

Before nerfing nourish give us other options, look at how many helminth abilities that are USELESS and the game design will OBVIOUSLY push players to use what is better and more versatile over something very niche and bad, you can't be seriously be expecting me to use banish or rest&rage over nourish or eclipse ?

The problem here isn't nourish the problem is how bad other helminth abilities are and after the nerf to nourish/eclipse we'll see roar be next in line then gloom then pillage until the helminth system will be completely irrelevant

Yes. ruined in the wrong place. and you can search FOREVER for logic here. everything popular is just ruined _AS ALWAYS_....
and I've never actually played with it. If I want dmg for ranged/mele weapons, then I can also use a chill Saryn build with 3x buffs. I can just hold the mele button and with mele I have 140k-500k hits and because of the mod there is always more than 9k mil heavy attack ready........ what can live with the dmg on SP???

And when I read messages like yours, I have no other emotion than *facepalm*. but now I'm used to it...

p.s.: kuva weapons? great design, epic sounds and now you only wear them in the circus?

 

 

[Prof-Dante]

What is getting nerfed about it really? are they just reducing values? or removing another major stat from it like the Viral buff or the energy multiplier?

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Qorvex99 said:

What is getting nerfed about it really? are they just reducing values? or removing another major stat from it like the Viral buff or the energy multiplier?

They haven't said.  Just that the target is for it to still be very useful and popular.