Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Monolake]

17 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Doesn't work with toxin damage afaik. And who said the helminth is being buffed from 75% to 90%?

All that was said on stream and in the official recap, but we'll see

[Mimolette]

5 hours ago, Weapon_11 said:

 

While the damage reduction can be good, this does not necessarily translate well into endgame content. We have already seen how 90-95% damage reduction fares into high level SP content - 1 or 2 shot deaths. In these situations, it is better to get rid of enemies before they overwhelm you.

Yea sure, the update will make the new Eclipse more reliable, but even a low value of the old Eclipse that was multiplicative, would still outshine the new max value Eclipse that will be additive. I'm not usually one to post on forums, but since we are all here to discuss, I thought I'd pitch in fellas.

Definitely. In endless SP or the Circuit, Arbitrations and Archon Hunts even, enemies deal heavy damage especially if you're surrounded. Combine that with Mirage's small health and shield values (which are usually best left alone to make space for damage and KPM boosting mods) and it pays to not get hit, by killing enemies faster than they can kill you.

As janky as it was, some players who've played with Mirage or Eclipse extensively would play tactically with the lighting system, i.e. fight in brighter areas going so far as to even memorise the optimal sweetspots across Warframe's randomly generated, but set tiles. I realise not everybody does this, but I hope it shows a very possible example that the old Eclipse lighting, despite being fundamentally unreliable, could still be made decently consistent in an actual in-game scenario.

What troubles me the most is how it affects Mirage more than most. I absolutely adore the frame (my favourite out of the 55 warframes we currently have) and Mirage has been my problem-solver warframe for many problems that need solving. I've always been entertained by the weapons platform playstyle, which can be skyrocketed all the way to level cap with some tweaking. Even when not running endgame content, it feels great to use alongside other weapons that are unique and fun to shoot, but fall short in late game. Eclipse has helped these lesser-used weapons find a better place, and even though the playstyle is 'simple', is why Mirage will always be fresh to me as there will always be new weapons to try out.

My voice in this entire discourse comes directly from a place of love and appreciation for Mirage, and while I understand there needs to be some changes regarding the subsumed version of Eclipse, changing it natively on Mirage will do worse than what might be seen as "simply less damage". It hurts scalability, survivability, and frame identity.

Still, I'll always be thankful for what Warframe has offered all these years, and I hope that we can all unite under a good resolution to this.

[StArtifact]

hace 2 horas, Voltage dijo:

Explain to me how a multiplicative damage bonus (that isn't consistent and also has many bugged interactions) is less contributing to the overarching problem of immense powercreep compared to an additive base damage multiplier that will not only be more consistent, but also create diminishing returns to prevent the player from exponentially trivializing the game.

Reeling in multipliers enables DE to create higher level content with appropriately scaling enemies comparative to our power output. Or would you prefer the direction we've been going in with mechanics like "Damage Attenuation" where the only meaningful damage multiplier is the framerate (among other things ).

It happened to Vex Armor.

It happened to Condition Overload.

It happened to Faction Damage Mods.

It happened to Maiming Strike.

It happened to Blood Rush.

It happened to Magus Lockdown.

It happened to so much more.

It's been Eclipse's turn for a long time now.

Now the balance its very important, in a game where Saryn, REVENANT and Kullervo exist? 
Those warframes that really trivializes the game rn?
And Vex armor and eclipse are a problem?

Nah not buying it

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

28 minutes ago, StArtifact said:

Now the balance its very important, in a game where Saryn, REVENANT and Kullervo exist? 
Those warframes that really trivializes the game rn?
And Vex armor and eclipse are a problem?

Nah not buying it

Just because more braindead things exist doesn't mean DE should stop any attempt to improve balance. 

Also are we forgetting the mass harassment Pablo received when he dared to express he wasn't happy with how overtuned Saryn was? 

Every day Warframe players convince me Warframe players deserve less than nothing. 

[StArtifact]

hace 13 minutos, BansheeAndZephyrMarried dijo:

Just because more braindead things exist doesn't mean DE should stop any attempt to improve balance. 

Also are we forgetting the mass harassment Pablo received when he dared to express he wasn't happy with how overtuned Saryn was? 

Every day Warframe players convince me Warframe players deserve less than nothing. 

Wow, what a very thoughtful response, you're the reason why this comunnity really feels off.

Every new frame with a few exceptions are quite brainded, including a lot of old frames that can do very cool shenaningans, im sorry to pop the bubble of you and the rest of ppl that believes that this is a sort of PvP game for bragging about "ha i did more damage than you", this is a PVE game, no ranking system, no raid, no nothing, there is no really a valid reason for nerfing to the ground cool things that people enjoys just because its a game (And a Warframe is a very fun game tbh).

I've heard the struggling of the Chroma players literally begging for a rework since years and they didnt have anything in return from his massacred boy "for the sake of balance lol".

And if you think that nerfing things so badly that the ones that main that warframe just goes away from the game is valid... Well XD

 

Balance isn't a good excuse when the game is not PvP and there a far WORSE things to patch. Try again.

[Traumtulpe]

This discussion is getting out of hand. The facts as I see them are that Eclipse is dead as a damage buffing subsumed ability, completely non-viable now, but it's the new best defensive ability. We have Roar so whatever.

For Mirage herself, she's still got her doppelgängers buffing her damage. I don't think she needs the extra damage from Eclipse at all. So you either replace the base damage on your weapon for something else, or you use the DR version of Eclipse. Either way works fine, and is honestly preferrable to the terrible mess Eclipse was before.

Now I would have much preferred (and gave feedback to this extend), if Eclipse had been reworked to be interesting, interactive, and functional, instead of turning Mirage into Chroma 2.0, but there were hordes of players all asking for exactly this: "Make it a toggle pls, even if it gets nerfed". You got precisely what you asked for.

[KitMeHarder]

35 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

For Mirage herself, she's still got her doppelgängers buffing her damage. I don't think she needs the extra damage from Eclipse at all.

They're only a mere 80% damage increase at base, have horrendous accuracy for most weapons, don't work with things like Glaive heavies, etc.... HoM is seemingly a very overestimated ability. Is it a damage increase? Yes. But it's really only good with 2 augments, our current Eclipse, and only on a handful of weapons.

Edited February 25 by KitMeHarder

[beiond_]

39 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Make it a toggle pls, even if it gets nerfed". You got precisely what you asked for.

it was never communicated that the ability would be changed other than the toggle, not before or after the vote, i highly doubt that ppl would vote for the toggle if we knew we'd get chroma 2.0, search around the forums, livestreams etc, it was never mentioned that she'd be nerfed in this way at all, we only heard about this in the latest devsteam and it was an offhand remark regarding the change, some ppl might be upset because of the change in calculation but most are mad because we were clearly lied to about the choice we actually had.

Edited February 25 by beiond_

[Traumtulpe]

17 minutes ago, beiond_ said:

it was never communicated that the ability would be changed other than the toggle, not before or after the vote, i highly doubt that ppl would vote for the toggle if we knew we'd get chroma 2.0, search around the forums, livestreams etc, it was never mentioned that she'd be nerfed in this way at all

You're wrong, Pablo quite literally said he'd have to nerf the ability if it became a toggle.

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, beiond_ said:

it was never communicated that the ability would be changed other than the toggle, not before or after the vote,

I think you're misremembering.  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1382344-eclipse-feedback-megathread/

Quote

 

We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors.

• Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth.

 

 

The key part that they've miscommunicated or  changed their minds about  without explanation (yet) is that it would be nerfed on Mirage.

 

Edited February 25 by Tiltskillet

[beiond_]

• 7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

  I think you're misremembering.  https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1382344-eclipse-feedback-megathread/

  
  The key part that they've miscommunicated or  changed their minds about  without explanation (yet) is that it would be nerfed on Mirage.

  16 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

  You're wrong, Pablo quite literally said he'd have to nerf the ability if it became a toggle.

   

  
  Unfortunately you are misremembering friend!
  Pablo clearly said in the post it wouldn't effect mirage and only effect helminth.
  My point still stands and even is reaffirmed by pablos own words.
• We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors.
  • Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth.
     

Edited February 25 by beiond_

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, beiond_ said:

Unfortunately you are misremembering friend!
Pablo clearly said in the post it wouldn't effect mirage and only effect helminth.

Sure,  I made this very point in my reply.

 

[beiond_]

14 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sure,  I made this very point in my reply.

 

ah, i just noticed the quote was the same one, was collapsed so i didn't notice, my apologies! (you know what they say about assuming...) (i'm aware it's not pablo, rather juice that said that, i just associated pablo with the change in my head)

Edited February 26 by beiond_

[Traumtulpe]

Pablo said roughly: "If we make it a toggle we would have to rebalance it, we could either just lower the number for the Helminth version or change the abilities functionality"

Clearly he chose the latter.

[VibingCat]

With such an undeserved nerf of Eclipse, I'd rather have it untouched.

[Ampathetiic]

39 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Pablo said roughly: "If we make it a toggle we would have to rebalance it, we could either just lower the number for the Helminth version or change the abilities functionality"

Clearly he chose the latter.

What is especially frustrating is that he even specifies that the effectiveness reduction would only apply to Helminth. In Devstream 176 he says at 1:00:24...

"The main thing with toggle that I just want to clarify: Right now the Eclipse Helminth is the second most used Helminth in the game. So if we were to just make it a toggle and remove its only weakness- which is how unreliable it is- it would just explode to the moon, so we cannot just do that. We would have to find some way to throttle it back. It's fine for Mirage: For Mirage herself we could just make it a toggle and I think it'd be fine, but for the Helminth which affects everything it would just be too powerful."

He then goes on to name some possible ideas for reworking the Helminth version of Eclipse, none of which include changing the damage calculations. The Mirage part of the nerf really just came out of nowhere.

Edited February 26 by Ampathetiic
mix up

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

What is especially frustrating is that he even specifies that the effectiveness reduction would only apply to Helminth. In Devstream 176 he says at 1:00:24...

"The main thing with toggle that I just want to clarify: Right now the Eclipse Helminth is the second most used Helminth in the game. So if we were to just make it a toggle and remove its only weakness- which is how unreliable it is- it would just explode to the moon, so we cannot just do that. We would have to find some way to throttle it back. It's fine for Mirage: For Mirage herself we could just make it a toggle and I think it'd be fine, but for the Helminth which affects everything it would just be too powerful."

He then goes on to name some possible ideas for reworking the Helminth version of Eclipse, none of which include changing the damage calculations. The Mirage part of the nerf really just came out of nowhere.

I'm hoping they at least do something like raise significantly the base damage bonus for Mirage. 

[Xquavier]

I was under the initial impression that it was going to be relatively the same while I was listening to the stream in the background. The fact is that they nerfed the original version rather than giving the additive version to the Helminth version would be a in-between alternative compromise rather than just making both the original version and the Helminth version act by the same rules.

Just feels a bit out of touch essentially do the same thing that happened with Chroma again despite knowing that Chroma isn't doing too hot within the current survivability meta right now since his Vex Armor: Fury stuff relies on health damage when many things recently have been all about using shield and shield-gating. This additive stuff feels more like it was in mind of the past rather than the future of Warframe's content.

And frankly I don't like they address it as a "second most used" Helminth ability when they clearly showed a graph on Devstream 177 that the second one was Rhino's Roar. It just feels uncalled for to just entirely rework the ability on how it works when the main problem addressed with it is the inconsistency of it WHILE also addressing that if it was made more consistent for the Helminth version that it would skyrocket up in usage. It frankly felt deceptive to not also display the damage calculation changes on the Dante Unbound General Changes card of the Devstream. While I know this change was done in favor of the community, I felt like they could've communicated it a lot more clearly or give some kind of "trial run" for the reworked Eclipse so they can get hands on feedback on whether the base multiplier actually preserves the effectiveness of the original output multiplier. Especially since they could just possibly make it a channeled ability and up the base cost of it.

Edited February 26 by Xquavier
Repetition and also clarification/suggestions in carrying out the changes

[Purple-my-Prime]

I just don't know yet the testing I've done hasn't been enough to confirm that my Mirage prism build dropped in damage. I know it did less damage in the ballroom sim, but I usually use my prism build in duviri and i for sure does more damage in duviri or at least it did. In the Ballroom the lighting conditions are terrible but i also didn't know they changed her eclipse to light and dark modes by toggle. So even though eclipse affects weapons, prism from what i understand works within the lighting condition mechanic. So, will the synergy be affected? I'm going to have to test it again in the ballroom and then in duviri. But i know when i threw my prism in the ballroom over high level enemies it didn't do the damage i see it do it duviri. I know distance is another factor. So, I hope it just because i was in the ballroom because if that's the damage it will do in duviri against high level enemies that will suck. But maybe i have to toggle or use the aug mod to keep it near me. But that's not really the way i prefer to use her. So, I'm just not sure yet if i like the change i guess I'll find out lol.

Edited March 1 by GenXer81
More testing required

[DeathOfASaint]

5 hours ago, StArtifact said:

this is a sort of PvP game for bragging about "ha i did more damage than you", this is a PVE game, no ranking system, no raid, no nothing, there is no really a valid reason for nerfing to the ground cool things that people enjoys just because its a game (And a Warframe is a very fun game tbh).

 

just because it’s a pve game doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to balanced lol

 

also yes much more broken frames exist but it’s a combination of all their 4 abilities which makes them broken, mirages eclipse is the “broken ability” in her kit( not my words, this is what mirage players proclaim ) and is available to ALL frames with helminth so they need to balance around every frame existing not just mirage

 

also tbh if being realistic i frankly doubt the games code can handle letting eclipse be a multiplicative final dmg buff on mirage and an additive base dmg buff via helminth so for DE it’s just easier to make it all around additive 

partly you can chalk it up to the mirage players being completely delusional tbf, iirc eclipse with 300% p strength is like a 400%? final dmg multiplier

yeah i doubt de r fine w giving all wfs a 100% uptime 400% multiplicative weapon buff on demand

technically DE never changed how it works on mirage specifically they just changed the ability as a whole

they just used clever wording to bypass it

Edited February 26 by DeathOfASaint

[Waeleto]

11 hours ago, StArtifact said:

Wow, what a very thoughtful response, you're the reason why this comunnity really feels off.

Every new frame with a few exceptions are quite brainded, including a lot of old frames that can do very cool shenaningans, im sorry to pop the bubble of you and the rest of ppl that believes that this is a sort of PvP game for bragging about "ha i did more damage than you", this is a PVE game, no ranking system, no raid, no nothing, there is no really a valid reason for nerfing to the ground cool things that people enjoys just because its a game (And a Warframe is a very fun game tbh).

I've heard the struggling of the Chroma players literally begging for a rework since years and they didnt have anything in return from his massacred boy "for the sake of balance lol".

And if you think that nerfing things so badly that the ones that main that warframe just goes away from the game is valid... Well XD

 

Balance isn't a good excuse when the game is not PvP and there a far WORSE things to patch. Try again.

THIS ^^^

Some people here literally want to take the fun out of the game

[SDGDen]

21 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Hot take: Eclipse is no longer a damage buff, just get Roar if that's what you want. Mirage now has a reliable 95% damage reduction, this is a buff. Hildryn and Inaros now have reliable damage reduction.

oh no i just realized how insane this will be on hildryn...

my hildryn gets over 8K shields and regenerates around 2K/second after 0.5 seconds not being hit, im already running adaptation on her which effectively makes her a passive shield tank, putting another DR effect on her would be insane.

 

[-Grognak-]

It's nice to ask the players what they want but I bet a lot of people would have voted differently if we would have known what the real choice was.

It's like do you want a reliable functioning car or a car that doesn't work at night? ofc I take the reliable car, well ok here is the reliable car but it cant go faster than Nyx with Assimilate augment.

[MarakViri]

Honestly, reducing the Strength from 300% to 200% would be acceptable (the Damage Reduction drop from 95% to 90% was honestly better than I was expecting).

Changing it from a Unique Multiplier to an Additive Base Multiplier would also have been acceptable. A downgrade, due to the mechanics of the scaling, but acceptable nonetheless.

But doing both? Reducing its base multiplier by a third and changing it to be like Serration, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point, but weaker than them without any strength investment? Outright painful.

The mechanics of Eclipse currently (though not for long given the upcoming update) act like a less versatile version of [Roar], acting somewhat akin to a Faction Multiplier, though only for weapons and not for status effects (so no double dipping). After the update, it's basically just having a Base Damage Mod on your weapons without needing the mod slot.

Of all the options that creating a toggle would have, this was arguably the worst implementation.

(Option A) = Reduce the strength of the Multiplier, but maintain its functionality

(Option B) = Maintain/Increase the strength of the Multiplier, but alter its functionality (from Faction to Base)

(Option C) = Reduce the strength of the multiplier and alter the functionality.

Of those three options, (A) would be the one I would vote for. Even lowering the Strength from 300% to 150% (100% for Helminth) would be acceptable. Heck, halving that to 75%/50% would also be something I would accept, since it's a single-target [Roar] that doesn't double dip.

Going with (C) though ... I'd honestly think I'd prefer just deleting the ability. On the positive side though, DE did want to reduce the pick-rate for this ability (and Nourish, which is also being nerved, though we don't know how), and I certainly won't be using this ability (at least not for its offensive half) if they make the change. Even the frames that currently have this ability as their Helminth option will not be retaining it, as [Roar] would now be better 98% of the time.

Heck, even on Mirage would likely be losing this ability when I finally get around to, you know, using her, as a free damage mod just ... doesn't do enough, if not for the easily attained 90% DR. I mean, it works with her First Ability, sure, but so does Roar, which benefits her other abilities as well and, without the sheer enormity of Eclipse's damage value, it no longer seems worth the trade off.

Heck, might even replace it with something completely useless for her kit like Rebuild Shields. Might be able to meme with that at least, which is more than I can say for Eclipse.

Edited February 27 by MarakViri

[DexXean]

13 hours ago, Ampathetiic said:

What is especially frustrating is that he even specifies that the effectiveness reduction would only apply to Helminth. In Devstream 176 he says at 1:00:24...

"The main thing with toggle that I just want to clarify: Right now the Eclipse Helminth is the second most used Helminth in the game. So if we were to just make it a toggle and remove its only weakness- which is how unreliable it is- it would just explode to the moon, so we cannot just do that. We would have to find some way to throttle it back. It's fine for Mirage: For Mirage herself we could just make it a toggle and I think it'd be fine, but for the Helminth which affects everything it would just be too powerful."

He then goes on to name some possible ideas for reworking the Helminth version of Eclipse, none of which include changing the damage calculations. The Mirage part of the nerf really just came out of nowhere.

I always assumed everything said on  Dev stream isnt final and also saying "I think" to me at least clearly implies they were not too sure on final values/decisions yet. Over time in devs stream they always repeat the phrase "nothing is final its a dev build" so I was always under the assumption ANYTHING on dev streams should be taken with a grain of salt cuz any decision can change b4 it finally happens. So Pablo saying "I think" in his wording in the two times he really talks about mirage in the past dev streams I tells me its not a PROMISE if he mentions "I think".

Edit: whether eclipse is nerfed or changed or not I think ppl are being disingenuous saying Pablo made a Promise or final decision on stream live without him actually directly saying mirage would never get nerfed/changed

Edited February 26 by DexXean