Update on the Mirage Eclipse Changes

[Captain_Dark21]

1 minute ago, Numerounius said:

They released a new one?

Yea they did and no mention of eclipse

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, Numerounius said:

They released a new one?

https://www.youtube.com/live/_k1tkT_4tUk?si=Pn0aUUUzt3LUYMea

 

[Numerounius]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

https://www.youtube.com/live/_k1tkT_4tUk?si=Pn0aUUUzt3LUYMea

Curses, no CC what a shame.

E:CC has been added, strange that it didn't do it automatically. I thought YT had a live CC system.

Edited March 6 by Numerounius

[MoxXiAo101]

30%is too low!

[Aevire]

On 2024-03-04 at 6:03 PM, L115A3_XB1 said:

Null star only  affects health though and doesnt work on shields and does cap at 90% , eclipse affects health and shields  , only DR now that will be 95% is shatter shield but it only protects from guns so is justifiable 

Yeah I think all of the DR abilities in the game are kind of wonky. Obviously when you go towards level cap there's an issue with enemy scaling damage where all survivability except for shield gating and true invincibility (and like free resurrections and stuff) largely and eventually completely becomes irrelevant. That's one problem. Another problem is that pretty much all damage reduction stacks multiplicatively with every other source, so if you put null star capped at 90% on nezha's warding halo capped at 90% that's 99% DR; if you add bless that's 99.75% DR, etc. It works like most other systems in warframe where all of the things stack multiplicatively with each other so numbers get really large really quick and everything has to be built around that scaling. Kullervo presses one button and gets like tens to hundreds of thousands of overguard. Everything is broken. I'd like to see an eventual Damage 3.0 or 4.0 or whatever we'd be on now that addresses all of this scaling. If enemy damage scaling is brought down to something more reasonable then we can make DR have diminishing returns and still stack with each other, and bring all of the sources of all these numbers down so that one ability doesn't multiply your effective health by 10-20x, or multiply your damage by 4-8x. [DE] can't make survivability a challenge when enemies are doing tens or hundreds of thousands of damage because then it's not a game of managing a resource it's a game of avoiding that system entirely. For the short term I think in general DR abilities should be brought in line with one another. (I don't agree generally that shatter shield should be 95% because it only protects from guns. Other similar abilities with restrictions on their efficacy or usability like Preserving Shell, Null Star, Immolation, and Parasitic Link are capped at 90% and have comparable or harsher restrictions.) In the long term I think Warframe should take a page out of League of Legends' book - it replaced cooldown reduction, which has the inverse of diminishing returns offering better uptimes the more you invest in it, with 'ability haste' which is a stat which has sensible math on the player side with no hard cap but offers diminishing returns. Something like a "fortitude" style stat.

[migoq_aki]

 

13 hours ago, Aevire said:

Kullervo presses one button and gets like tens to hundreds of thousands of overguard. Everything is broken. I'd like to see an eventual Damage 3.0 or 4.0 or whatever we'd be on now that addresses all of this scaling

show me that kullervo with hundreds of thousands of overguard on one click, last I checked he gets 30k on 300% str, maybe you thought styanax but that's capped too (50k on 240 str) and og gets no help, it's an additional gate on sp mostly

we are powercreept to 7 hells, but you're exeggerating way too much in general, though I'm afraid DE is thinking the same

Edited March 8 by migoq_aki

[NoctisC21]

2024/2/27 PM7点49分 , [DE]Juice 说:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

Unacceptable, keep the skill on the original way, what a nice design about this skill, now it’s same as the other boring buff skills and even weaker , boring fks,

[thats_rudiculous_07]

On 2024-02-27 at 10:49 AM, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

Can you make mirage eclipse affect , explosion legerdemain augment as weapon for some synergy with her abilities/kit.

30% is way to low it should be 75-100

Cause roar would still be better cause its more versatile.  Eclipse only affects weapons. It shouldn't be equal to roar  it should be a bit better. Plus when using he ability you'll only be getting one buff.

Edited March 10 by thats_rudiculous_07
Adding

[L115A3_XB1]

On 2024-03-07 at 11:37 PM, Aevire said:

Yeah I think all of the DR abilities in the game are kind of wonky. Obviously when you go towards level cap there's an issue with enemy scaling damage where all survivability except for shield gating and true invincibility (and like free resurrections and stuff) largely and eventually completely becomes irrelevant. That's one problem. Another problem is that pretty much all damage reduction stacks multiplicatively with every other source, so if you put null star capped at 90% on nezha's warding halo capped at 90% that's 99% DR; if you add bless that's 99.75% DR, etc. It works like most other systems in warframe where all of the things stack multiplicatively with each other so numbers get really large really quick and everything has to be built around that scaling. Kullervo presses one button and gets like tens to hundreds of thousands of overguard. Everything is broken. I'd like to see an eventual Damage 3.0 or 4.0 or whatever we'd be on now that addresses all of this scaling. If enemy damage scaling is brought down to something more reasonable then we can make DR have diminishing returns and still stack with each other, and bring all of the sources of all these numbers down so that one ability doesn't multiply your effective health by 10-20x, or multiply your damage by 4-8x. [DE] can't make survivability a challenge when enemies are doing tens or hundreds of thousands of damage because then it's not a game of managing a resource it's a game of avoiding that system entirely. For the short term I think in general DR abilities should be brought in line with one another. (I don't agree generally that shatter shield should be 95% because it only protects from guns. Other similar abilities with restrictions on their efficacy or usability like Preserving Shell, Null Star, Immolation, and Parasitic Link are capped at 90% and have comparable or harsher restrictions.) In the long term I think Warframe should take a page out of League of Legends' book - it replaced cooldown reduction, which has the inverse of diminishing returns offering better uptimes the more you invest in it, with 'ability haste' which is a stat which has sensible math on the player side with no hard cap but offers diminishing returns. Something like a "fortitude" style stat.

yeahh  the biggest issue is enemy damage curve needing checked , I for one would love to see health tanking viable to any level  , it inherently has it s own drawbacks in that you haveto invest in multiple mods but would be nice for health to be fully relevant beyond a certain point  , as for DRs stacking dont see a major issue in their multiplicative stacking really

 

[Numerounius]

1 hour ago, L115A3_XB1 said:

yeahh  the biggest issue is enemy damage curve needing checked , I for one would love to see health tanking viable to any level  , it inherently has it s own drawbacks in that you haveto invest in multiple mods but would be nice for health to be fully relevant beyond a certain point  , as for DRs stacking dont see a major issue in their multiplicative stacking really

There are some stuff that can make health tanking super busted if it was feasible at any enemy level but it wouldn't be that hard to then balance it just like how stuff had to be adjusted for the squish^TM. Plus there is already stuff like true invincibility / shield gating which can already be done anyways.

At least it is feasible to build a DR-based build for a wide range of enemy levels you face. Just that at that point you are better off going for a dps build instead. Hence why the heavy restrictions on damage buffing abilities in helminth vs DR being overlooked / hard capped to prevent it.

And agree with the initial comment, yes health tanking is reasonable but at some point the enemy level scaling just says screw you and forces an extraction due to too many one-shots, there is hardly an in-between that allows for min-maxing from a DR perspective.

[TheLegendCore]

Cmon DE come to your senses !! can we please get 350% additive like you said at first? Or like 200% additive? anything is better than this useless 30%. Its like people told you dont nerf it and you said ok ! we nerf it more LOL.
If this goes live I know that Im deleting the game until it gets fixed. 

[PlatypusWarriorX]

So…

The damage nerf seems awfully drastic compared to the reductions to other abilities in the helminth. I’m also of the opinion that the buffs should be raised, at least a little. That would make Roar the better option for casters and status stackers, and Eclipse the better option for raw weapon damage. I don’t think the option for damage reduction alone is enough to carve out a significant niche for Eclipse as a helminth ability with the current values.

As for on Mirage herself, I don’t have enough experience with her to say for sure, but if I’m understanding correctly her extreme damage potential is where her usefulness comes from, so it’s important that her values are high enough.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

On 2024-02-27 at 8:14 PM, XennethKeisere said:

Show some consistency.

DE? Consistency? Never lmao

[Meji_Kino]

What is the point of the Helmeth system, if you are nerfing the powers to the ground? 

 

Nerfing Eclipse to 30% is kind of horrible. I can use Roar and it will effect more than the damage of the weapon. People will just trade Eclipse for Roar and you will then do an update to increase the numbers of Eclipse or make Roar just as bad. This is just endless. Just make Eclipse 75% - 85% on helmenth, since it only effects damamge of weapons.

 

Forget the nerf on Nurish and Whispers. Just bring the other abilities on par with nurish, then you will not have to nerf other things into the ground when people start using those instead of a nerfed Nurish or Whispers.

 

 

Edited March 13 by Meji_Kino

[s1201418]

How about nerfing roar so THEY ALL LOOK “tHe SaME”

[Varzy]

I really feel like the subsume power bonus should be between 60-100% instead of just 30%.

Yes, 30% matches Roar, but the regular Roar is a 50% boost, the change in power is still about 2/3rd of what the original ability offers.

In contrast, Eclipse is being knocked down to about 1/5th of it's original power. With that in mind, it really doesn't match Roar at all.

Edited March 14 by Varzy
(edited to correct a number and spelling)

[Aerikx]

On 2024-03-13 at 2:23 AM, Meji_Kino said:

Forget the nerf on Nurish and Whispers. Just bring the other abilities on par with nurish, then you will not have to nerf other things into the ground when people start using those instead of a nerfed Nurish or Whispers.

A "Never Nerf, only Buff." Approach is as flawed as always nerfing. It actually is worse than needing as it leads to INSANE power creep, design imbalance, and ultimately ends with updates that effectively reset everything/squish everything causing the game to feel like an entirely different game.

Many MMOs made this mistake back in the early 2000s.

57 minutes ago, Varzy said:

Yes, 30% matches Roar, but the regular Roar is a 50% boost, the change in power is still about 2/3rd of what the original ability offers.

Eclipse does more than just dmg though.

Many on these forums refuse to acknowledge that the ability does more than boost DPS but in actuality it does. And while the Damage Reduction is lesser usee

While many refuse to use it for DR; apparently in their mind that means: "I don't use it therefore that aspect doesn't have exist."; the aspect still exist. 

Ultimately, a person can stick their head in the sand all they want, it doesn't change reality of the situation. 

If a steamroller is out of control and rushing toward someone , sticking their head in the sand only stops them from seeing its approach. But just because they can't see the steamroller doesn't mean it's not there anymore. It's still there, it's still coming, and it's going to run over them if they don't move.

Bottomline is...

It does more than DPS and thus it has to be balanced to account for that. Otherwise you end with a nourish situation. IE: Where people out it on every single Frame in existence (and the cousins too) and wonder why the devs feel it needs rebalancing.

[Varzy]

5 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Eclipse does more than just dmg though.

Many on these forums refuse to acknowledge that the ability does more than boost DPS but in actuality it does. And while the Damage Reduction is lesser usee

While many refuse to use it for DR; apparently in their mind that means: "I don't use it therefore that aspect doesn't have exist."; the aspect still exist. 

Ultimately, a person can stick their head in the sand all they want, it doesn't change reality of the situation. 

If a steamroller is out of control and rushing toward someone , sticking their head in the sand only stops them from seeing its approach. But just because they can't see the steamroller doesn't mean it's not there anymore. It's still there, it's still coming, and it's going to run over them if they don't move.

Bottomline is...

It does more than DPS and thus it has to be balanced to account for that. Otherwise you end with a nourish situation. IE: Where people out it on every single Frame in existence (and the cousins too) and wonder why the devs feel it needs rebalancing.

It's really rude to suggest I've got my head in the sand just because I've voiced a different opinion from you. Nothing you described was news to me, I made my comment while considering the damage reduction factor, not ignoring it.

I don't want game balance to be thrown out the window and I do believe nerfs are justified. But examining the extent of those changes deserves a full discussion.

I realise Eclipse also offers Damage Resistance. It remains to be seen how useful that is - the majority of frames have clear methods of survivability already, so it's hard to gauge how useful it would be. It's hard to predict what scenarios you'd use this ability in as opposed to, say, running Adaptation or Catalyzing Shields/Brief Respite. Does the proposed DR have a meaningful change on existing builds or is it going to be a niche pick? Will the swapping effect feel natural or will it just be something most players forget?

Chroma has a skill that boosts his speed but reduces his armor, but you don't see people using it for that. The same might transpire here.

In contrast, it's much clearer to predict the impact bringing the subsume buff down from 150% to just 30% would be. That's exactly why the discussion is focused on this point.

Roar doesn't simply boost weapon damage - it affects the whole team, affects weapon and ability damage and double-dips on status effects. It simply does more than Eclipse does from a damage point of view. "DPS is damage mitigation" - the quicker you kill the enemy the less damage you take. If I already have good survivability tools, why would I pick Eclipse instead of Roar now?

Ultimately, we'll have to wait and see if this change is actually useful (which is what I suspect DE is ultimately going to do).

But in the meantime, please don't be so dismissive of your fellow Tenno who are sharing their honest thoughts and concerns. You might be surprised to find they've put more thought into the details than you've expected.

[Aerikx]

5 minutes ago, Varzy said:

It's really rude to suggest I've got my head in the sand just because I've voiced a different opinion from you. Nothing you described was news to me, I made my comment while considering the damage reduction factor, not ignoring it.

Reread my comment.

I wasn't implying you. I was referencing a generalization.

Key words you missed:

35 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Many on these forums refuse to acknowledge

If you look into other threads in this issue. You'll see many say: "The DR doesn't matter.", "No one uses it."

I literally never even used the word:

You

In my post.

Check your fire next time.

Edited March 14 by Aerikx

[Varzy]

33 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Reread my comment.

I wasn't implying you. I was referencing a generalization.

Key words you missed:

If you look into other threads in this issue. You'll see many say: "The DR doesn't matter.", "No one uses it."

I literally never even used the word:

You

In my post.

Check your fire next time.

"Referencing a generalisation" while quoting me, and saying people who share my opinion "have their heads in the sand". I naturally assumed you were talking about me when you talked directly to me and critiqued the sentiment I expressed, saying people who hold my opinion haven't thought hard enough about it.

I mean c'mon, seriously. How was I not implied?

And even if you didn't mean to catch me in your statement, like I said in my post,

37 minutes ago, Varzy said:

 please don't be so dismissive of your fellow Tenno who are sharing their honest thoughts and concerns. You might be surprised to find they've put more thought into the details than you've expected.

 

[thats_rudiculous_07]

On 2024-02-27 at 10:49 AM, [DE]Juice said:

Hello Tenno!

On Devstream #177, we outlined our upcoming changes to Mirage’s Eclipse. In making the ability a toggle (Tap or Hold) we also changed the buffs to be an additive bonus (similar to Chroma’s Vex Armor) instead of a final multiplicative. To elaborate further with some maths, we changed it from 200% final multiplicative to 350% stack multiplicative.

After reviewing Community feedback and discussing it internally, we are reverting the latter change. Eclipse will remain a 200% final multiplicative for Mirage, and the Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%. Please note that it won't be the exact same upgrade as Roar, the differences between the abilities will remain.

Subject to change as we continue playing around with it, but we wanted to provide an update as we continue development and read feedback.

Thank you!

Can you make mirage eclipse affect , explosion legerdemain(2nd ability) augment as weapon type for some synergy with her ability/kit.

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, Varzy said:

"Referencing a generalisation" while quoting me, and saying people who share my opinion "have their heads in the sand"

Time I be direct then. Apparently I have to spell it out for you.

I quoted you because it was relevant to my point. Which was that Roar and Eclipse perform different functions. 

And the community seems more than happy to acknowledge Roar's other functions while deliberately and purposely dismissing Eclipse's Damage Reduction. 

If you'd bother to look through other threads on this matter you'd see tons of examples of this. 

Perhaps you shouldn't be dismissive of your fellow (we are not fellows however) Tenno.

Perhaps you might be surprised to learn that they have been involved in a number of discussions around this topic. Discussions that were alluded to in the other Tenno's post. Discussions where the DR has been wholesale written off because the only thing others care to acknowledge is the damage reduction.

1 hour ago, Varzy said:

How was I not implied?

If I was saying your head is in the sand. I would have directly said so. 

Just like how now, I'm telling you now...

You're a damn hypocrite. 

Telling me not to be dismissive but outright dismissing my post after I bluntly told you it wasn't referencing you.

But go ahead and assume I was attacking you. Its honestly irrelevant. 

Either way, you ultimately also chose not to touch upon Eclipses DR functionality as well. Instead, you as well, chose to focus only on the DMG boost and the flawed desire that it needs to match/rival Roar. 

Rhino's roar is a purely offensive ability that unsurprisingly boosts Damage sources. 

That was and is it's intended role. 

Mirage's Eclipse was originally intended to be a fluctuating buff that cycles between defense and offense based on the now defunct lighting/light level of the player location.

IE: It serves 2 purposes.

The RNG aspect was what justified it's strength. The removal of that self-same RNG element is why it's being reduced to static and reliable values.

The argument that needs to be a 1 to 1 match to Roar is disingenuous and foolhardy because of the fact it can offers DR at will. 

75% DR is nothing to scoff at. As that DR is significant for 95% of content in the game. 

Is it good for Endurance Runs? No. 

But we all know DE doesn't build the game to function for however many days, weeks, months, or years players choose to stay in 1 mission.

If anything the discussion should be around making Eclipse a stronger DR ability because the game is seriously lacking in those. 

IE: Reduce the base DR to 45 or 50% but allow players to build for it, allowing it to scale to a cap of 90% or 95% (I wanna say with like 200str) 

But nope...

Let's just keep screaming into the Void about how it's weaker than Roar on non-Mirage Warframes. 

[UlyssesTheDM]

On 2024-02-27 at 1:49 PM, [DE]Juice said:

Helminth Subsume version will be multiplicative and match the exact number for Roar, which is 30%.

For the Helminth system: Eclipse, because it is different from Roar and it doesn't effect DoTs, or teammates, and only affects weapons, not abilities, should not be getting nerfed this hard. 60% would be a great spot for it to start for the diminished Helminth version of it.

Helminth is supposed to be a sidegrade at the cost of replacing an ability, not a strict upgrade. People should be allowed to get big unga-bunga numbers on the screen still, but only for their weapon damage in the case of Eclipse, which is fine.

Also side note, Roar is also fine where it is at since it is also a team-wide buff which is additive to universal faction damage. It makes sense and is good where it is at.

[vylexes]

On 2024-03-14 at 5:01 PM, Aerikx said:

Time I be direct then. Apparently I have to spell it out for you.

I quoted you because it was relevant to my point. Which was that Roar and Eclipse perform different functions. 

And the community seems more than happy to acknowledge Roar's other functions while deliberately and purposely dismissing Eclipse's Damage Reduction. 

If you'd bother to look through other threads on this matter you'd see tons of examples of this. 

Perhaps you shouldn't be dismissive of your fellow (we are not fellows however) Tenno.

Perhaps you might be surprised to learn that they have been involved in a number of discussions around this topic. Discussions that were alluded to in the other Tenno's post. Discussions where the DR has been wholesale written off because the only thing others care to acknowledge is the damage reduction.

If I was saying your head is in the sand. I would have directly said so. 

Just like how now, I'm telling you now...

You're a damn hypocrite. 

Telling me not to be dismissive but outright dismissing my post after I bluntly told you it wasn't referencing you.

But go ahead and assume I was attacking you. Its honestly irrelevant. 

Either way, you ultimately also chose not to touch upon Eclipses DR functionality as well. Instead, you as well, chose to focus only on the DMG boost and the flawed desire that it needs to match/rival Roar. 

Rhino's roar is a purely offensive ability that unsurprisingly boosts Damage sources. 

That was and is it's intended role. 

Mirage's Eclipse was originally intended to be a fluctuating buff that cycles between defense and offense based on the now defunct lighting/light level of the player location.

IE: It serves 2 purposes.

The RNG aspect was what justified it's strength. The removal of that self-same RNG element is why it's being reduced to static and reliable values.

The argument that needs to be a 1 to 1 match to Roar is disingenuous and foolhardy because of the fact it can offers DR at will. 

75% DR is nothing to scoff at. As that DR is significant for 95% of content in the game. 

Is it good for Endurance Runs? No. 

But we all know DE doesn't build the game to function for however many days, weeks, months, or years players choose to stay in 1 mission.

If anything the discussion should be around making Eclipse a stronger DR ability because the game is seriously lacking in those. 

IE: Reduce the base DR to 45 or 50% but allow players to build for it, allowing it to scale to a cap of 90% or 95% (I wanna say with like 200str) 

But nope...

Let's just keep screaming into the Void about how it's weaker than Roar on non-Mirage Warframes. 

Sorry was reading over this and wondering what the heck is this person talking about,75%DR is great for 95% of the game um yea no maybe 60-65% of the game which is not insignificant for sure but long stretch from 95%. Also I don't think you really understand that 30% is a 120% nerf to the ability for a problem that the devs created, As much as a toggle would be nice imagine telling someone that just came back to the game in order for them to reach even the base number that eclipse was previously you will need 500% strength. Mean while the person on previous occasions would get even at the worst of time the full 150% nearly 80-85% on most maps for most of the time and upwards of 400% in the open world content. I don't know anyone that has ever used Mirage DR because of her being beyond squishy as it was, Plus why use the helminth ability after this when you can just bring two mirages with augments have one with the DR and the other with the full unaffected effect buff while a third or you brings Roar to buff that over all effect. 

Don't get me wrong the DR buff will work 100% on frames that are incredibly tanky such as rhino, or Inaros with rework but might be over kill. But never the less even then it might be better to bring a mirage with augment to give 95% DR vs the 75% from helminth that will only effect the frame itself. 

I don't think the answer they give for eclipse nerf is that great of a answer it seems they want to over simplify how Roar works to be honest, it used to be that if the problem was created by them they would fix it without being so heavy handed but this is extreme in my own opinion take as you will but if they started at a more reasonable range say 65% and worked back from there if things were so drastic than players I feel wouldn't be so baffled or outraged.

[VibingCat]

Maybe Eclipse does need a rework because, unlike most abilities it's quite inconsistent and unpredictable due to lighting conditions. I agree with the idea of making it a tap/hold ability to separate its damage buff from its damage reduction buff, but please don't nerf it so much as it was announced. Apparently it's going to give the same damage multiplier as Roar, this way it will be four times weaker! And of course it won't be affecting ability damage and allies (without Total Eclipse), nor will it boost status damage twice as Roar does, so it will be worse in every way except for its re-castability, casting speed and lower energy cost.

If you're going to rework Eclipse, I beg you to reconsider these numbers. At the moment, on Mirage it multiplies damage by 2.0x with 100% strength. Well, in case it won't depend on the local luminosity anymore, I think a constant 1.8x would be fine, instead of a miserable 1.5x that gets almost halved for other warframes.

Honestly, I don't even care about damage reduction; I imagine we all infused Eclipse just for the daylight effect.

Any thoughts?

Edit: it's going to be a minuscule 1.3x as a Helminth ability, duh.

Edited March 27 by VibingCat