Revenant is too much of a crutch

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Hm, yeah, but it's kindof a free gift via Circuit, it's not like they grinded the syndicate for it. Honestly props to you, I doubt 90% of Revenant players use the augment.

Good point.  I forgot about the Circuit method of getting augments.  There really isn't much of an excuse not to use it then.

[ReddyDisco]

49 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Let that sink in.

[CrownOfShadows]

9 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I view their lack of dying as contributing.

This is fundamentally the problem

[Aerikx]

25 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

This is fundamentally the problem

So effectively you want to have to lower skill and new players dying all over the place, possibly compromising the mission, and requiring you to come pick up.

As Sunder said, the majority of players already go into missions expecting to carry it. 

Also while Warframe is a co-op game, it's solo accessible for a reason. 

[CrownOfShadows]

6 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

So effectively you want to have to lower skill and new players dying all over the place, possibly compromising the mission, and requiring you to come pick up.

As Sunder said, the majority of players already go into missions expecting to carry it. 

Also while Warframe is a co-op game, it's solo accessible for a reason. 

True and False. Like I don't mind a Loki or even an Octavia (although that is fundamentally problematic as well) as long as they are DOING something. The thing about Revenant is that he is just enthralling enemies (if that - I've seen plenty that don't lol) and then doing nothing after. Basically at the most basic, low-effort level, I'm asking that Revenant DO something besides that (and even enthralling, as mentioned in the OP, is not that awesome of a team ability).  Like please CONTRIBUTE?!@?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? wtf

And yes, I solo a lot. SHOULD I THOUGH???!?!? Is that what this game is about!?? I beg to differ sir. WF is about co-op. That is its fundamental premise. Otherwise thank you, I'll #*!% off and go play any number of other games. That might make YOU happy, but does it make DE (or the general playerbase) happy? It's not about ME it's about the generic player experience.

Revenant is a kill-joy anyway you look at it. You see a Revenant, you immediately determine that player as useless (whether they actually are or not due to WEAPONS and not the FRAME), and this is because that frame IS USELESS from a team perspective. WHAT does he ACTUALLY contribute i beg you? (Besides the mediocre cc from his thralls?) He is immortal and (irritating) and THAT"S ALL>>

Like I'm not especially trying to be elitist, but a Revenant in my group contributes nothing while bumping the modifiers. So gtfo or contribute damn it. You do NOTHING>

[AntifreezeUnder0]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well I'll bash you for pretending that players being immortal while doing nothing is ok. It's not. Contribute or why are you here? Oh because you can be? Not good enough, sorry. What else you got? This is about players doing nothing. Ok, imagine you're in a defense with 3 Revenants. Just imagine that. Who is doing all the work? The Revenants? No. YOU?!?!?! Yes.

Sorry it's not. Contributing nothing is almost the exact same thing as afk. Whether that's their intention or not. It sucks

Then i would say we need to punish those who hog up all the enemies, because of metaslaving since they simply make others have nothing to do. And by the way you been going on in this thread one seem to be one of those who kill everything and then bithc about that others did nothing.

[CrownOfShadows]

55 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

seem to be one of those who kill everything and then bithc about that others did nothing.

Like maybe that's exactly the problem? If nobody else kills anything ( or does ANYTHING) then somebody HAS to? Or else the mission fails. Maybe that's the ENTIRE POINT....

Like what happens when you afk? The rest of the team "kills everything"? Hello?

Like plz, be useful at least. I don't think being immortal for free is a great design choice, but at least be useful?!?? Are you trying to say 'nah, f*ck that, we don't need to be useful'?

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

So effectively you want to have to lower skill and new players dying all over the place, possibly compromising the mission, and requiring you to come pick up.

As Sunder said, the majority of players already go into missions expecting to carry it. 

Also while Warframe is a co-op game, it's solo accessible for a reason. 

Yeah this "just play solo" argument is DOA. Plz, stop with this. Why don't YOU play solo?!?!?!?!? Hm? Like sorry for wanting to play with people.....

As for newer players dying all over the place without Revenant:

1. This really wouldn't be the case, there are plenty of options besides Revenant (which also happen to mostly contribute or else have other drawbacks that make them less enticing)
2. Yeah, well, maybe we should just disable all scaling in this game to accommodate new players? Like there's  a progression system, respect it or not (and Revenant just doesn't, more than anyone else - everyone else had respectable-ish drawbacks - I'm not happy about them, but they have a certain status quo).
3. Git gud

[ECCHOSIERRA]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

So if there's defense mission and it's just you with 2 or 3 Revenants you're cool with that? Just checking. Like honestly. Be real.

And your excuse for Revenant being useless is "because weapons GOOD" ... sorry that't not  good enough, why not play literally ANY other warframe?

If i go into a mission, any mission, I make sure im capable of completing the mission by myself, if necessary.

I dont go into random public games with such poor gear that im completely dependent on my team doing all the work. 

And the more you throw a fit about how bad you NEED PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE but staying alive and using weapons doesnt count because reasons, the more im convinced that there is an underlying skill issue and instead of becoming a better player youve decided to compensate by demanding everyone else "contribute" to make up for it.

If im wrong, then i dont understand where all this vitriol is coming from.

I mean what do you EXPECT? What does someone have to do to be Worthy(tm) of being in your squad, of you saying "okay theyre contributing enough"?

I gotta buff you? I gotta debuff all the enemies *you* are facing? I gotta crowd control all the enemies for you? How about you handle you.

T

 

That isnt me trying to flex or say "look im so good". Its just reality.

You cant count on your random teammates being particularly good at the game and that problem has been around since before revenant (not prime) even existed. And as you yourself already acknowledged, would be around even if Revenant didnt exist.

Apparently thats the difference between me and you, and that would explain why youre so salty about this.  

You got two options pal.

1) get good. Deal with the fact you cant force everyone else to play the game you want them to and you got no more of a right to throw a temper tantrum about it than they do if YOU arent playing the game the way THEY want you to. Dont depend on everyone else carrying you with buffs because youre incapable of completing the objectives without help.

2) dont do that, and continue to throw a hissy fit every time things dont go your way.

 

You can kick and scream all you want. Those are your options.

So yes, im more than "cool with that". 

This game isnt known for being difficult.

hell my freaking sentinel routinely gets more kills than anyone else in the quad when i play hydron.

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

So what would you do if none of us were there? LOSE? C'mon. Contribute a LITTLE holy christ

Explain to me how you fail a mission with 3 Revenants in the squad. 

Im assuming youre not talking about spy vault alarms.

Because that would actually be impressive. 

Edited March 3 by ECCHOSIERRA

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, ECCHOSIERRA said:

You got two options pal.

1) get good. Deal with the fact you cant force everyone else to play the game you want them to

I AM good son. I can carry an entire mission to cap by myself. That's not why I play WF. I play WF because I enjoy playing with people.

I fully accept that other people have other ways of playing. I fully accept that other people might be less engaged than I am.

I do NOT accept lazy people, people who who do NOT contribute, people who refuse to be a part of the mission because they are immortal, people who are essentially prevented from being part of the mission because their frame lacks the tools to do so.

Do you accept that. Do you?

[CrownOfShadows]

8 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

I mean what do you EXPECT? What does someone have to do to be Worthy(tm) of being in your squad, of you saying "okay theyre contributing enough"?

I gotta buff you? I gotta debuff all the enemies *you* are facing? I gotta crowd control all the enemies for you? How about you handle you.

Explain to me how you fail a mission with 3 Revenants in the squad.

I EXPECT you do DO something. Maybe you as a Revenant player ARE killing things (via your weapons ofc lol) fine, but is that the case for this MR15, or this MR9, or this MR 16?

NO.

It is NOT the case. These are leeches. And don't get me wrong, I can tolerate ONE leech I suppose, fine whatever, but when the entire mission comes down to me, SCREW you guys, I WILL SOLO, why are you even here? Hello>?

I can guarantee that unlike you these people had no intention of solo-ing this mission. They just showed up, hoped someone would carry them, and they are immortal so they are 'contributing'. WRONG. SO WRONG. Grow a pair.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I AM good son. I can carry an entire mission to cap by myself. That's not why I play WF. I play WF because I enjoy playing with people.

I fully accept that other people have other ways of playing. I fully accept that other people might be less engaged than I am.

I do NOT accept lazy people, people who who do NOT contribute, people who refuse to be a part of the mission because they are immortal, people who are essentially prevented from being part of the mission because their frame lacks the tools to do so.

Do you accept that. Do you?

You can throw a fit and not accept the sun rising in the east and setting in the west, but its still gonna.

I can go on a whole tirade about how i "dont accept" people trying to make petulant demands about how other people play the game, but youre still gonna.

I dont buy it. 

"Prevented from being part of the" BRUH.

you gotta be joking.

Its no secret that any frame with good survivability, whether it be from high health and armor stats or shield set ups or defensive abilities or invisibility or damage reductions or *whatever*, + any decent weapon especially ones like torid incarnon or amprex is MORE than capable of "contributing" in a squad. 

 

 

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, ECCHOSIERRA said:

You can throw a fit and not accept the sun rising in the east and setting in the west, but its still gonna.

I can go on a whole tirade about how i "dont accept" people trying to make petulant demands about how other people play the game, but youre still gonna.

I dont buy it. 

"Prevented from being part of the" BRUH.

you gotta be joking.

Its no secret that any frame with good survivability, whether it be from high health and armor stats or shield set ups or defensive abilities or invisibility or damage reductions or *whatever*, + any decent weapon especially ones like torid incarnon or amprex is MORE than capable of "contributing" in a squad. 

 

 

Like I said in the OP, of course there are other ways for players to cheese, but those all require investment and/or have certain drawbacks. Revenant is a get-out-of-jail free card that is abused and abused and abused. You still haven't responded. Would you be ok with just you and 2-3 revenants in a high level defense? Like hello, you would be doing ALL the heavy lifting there. Is that cool? Sure it might be fine here and there, I GUESS> but is it fine as a META, as the predominant playstyle??????

I submit> NO

[Skoomaseller]

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Is it the player's fault or DE's fault? Honestly i'm not sure. Maybe a little of both.

it's DE's. you can't really fault anyone for just picking what's most convenient, and gets the job done. not sure what was going through their minds when designing revenant, I mean granting easy, literally effortless (one and done) Godmode for virtually unlimited time is certainly... a choice. 

I get what you're saying about people relying too much on revenant, but I don't see it as a crutch but rather them just picking what's convenient. it's a bit silly to see people using x warframe or y weapon as a "crutch"; people just gravitate to what's easy, or what's fun, etc. it's not like they can't conquer content without it.

however, revenant being so easy that people end up relying on him alone for 99% of content is a point I can understand.

But it doesn't begin with revenant. it begins with rhino. A very easily obtained frame, obtained very early into the game that also provides effortless immortality via iron skin. for 100% of base star chart, it's more than enough.

there's also wukong who, while the immortality provided is transient, still allows for effortless gameplay. and he is acquired via dojo, which any low MR player can just join. 

if DE wants to tackle this, they should shuffle around the bps dropped by bosses, and maybe move wukong out of clan research.

that is, if they even see it as an issue, which i doubt they do. I personally think it'd be better for the game and players, but I don't think it's something too serious that it needs to be addressed ASAP. because end of the day, warframe is an easy game, and even if you don't rely on immortal/hyper tank frames, you'll still complete your missions with relative ease. 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I EXPECT you do DO something. Maybe you as a Revenant player ARE killing things (via your weapons ofc lol) fine, but is that the case for this MR15, or this MR9, or this MR 16?

NO.

It is NOT the case. These are leeches. And don't get me wrong, I can tolerate ONE leech I suppose, fine whatever, but when the entire mission comes down to me, SCREW you guys, I WILL SOLO, why are you even here? Hello>?

I can guarantee that unlike you these people had no intention of solo-ing this mission. They just showed up, hoped someone would carry them, and they are immortal so they are 'contributing'. WRONG. SO WRONG. Grow a pair.

MR15 MR9 MR16 MR30 MR 69420MLG bruh MR =/= skill.

MR =/= knowledge of game mechanics. 

MR =/= efficacy in a squad.

 

Now. You can come up with whatever arbitrary subjective standard you want for what is and isnt "contributing" but if other players "contributing" is M A N D A T O R Y for you to succeed without falling into a frothy rage than something aint right.

If you literally go into a public match and literally match with 3 people who are literally doing absolutely nothing but standing there AFK than hey, by all means, leave the squad and solo. Leave the squad and find a new session.

Im willing to bet i have more hours in this game than you, and I have literally never had that happen. 

If i go into a public match and 3 people are literally playing revenant and have mk 1 bratons and nothing else, at bare freaking minimum they are distracting enemies from me and or the objective. 

Any enemy focusing on them, is not actively attacking me and or the objective. 

If them being there means less enemies are attacking me and or the objective, then them being in the squad is more beneficial to me than the spot being empty.

They are "contributing". 

And whats funny about this whole thing is you could just as easily throw a fit for the opposite reason: 

"Slowva is making all the enemies move too slow" 

"Mesa is stealing all the kills" 

"Octavia is turning the ai off no fun" 

"Saryn is nuking the whole map this isnt fun" 

Etc.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Skoomaseller said:

it's DE's. you can't really fault anyone for just picking what's most convenient, and gets the job done. not sure what was going through their minds when designing revenant, I mean granting easy, literally effortless (one and done) Godmode for virtually unlimited time is certainly... a choice. 

I get what you're saying about people relying too much on revenant, but I don't see it as a crutch but rather them just picking what's convenient. it's a bit silly to see people using x warframe or y weapon as a "crutch"; people just gravitate to what's easy, or what's fun, etc. it's not like they can't conquer content without it.

however, revenant being so easy that people end up relying on him alone for 99% of content is a point I can understand.

But it doesn't begin with revenant. it begins with rhino. A very easily obtained frame, obtained very early into the game that also provides effortless immortality via iron skin. for 100% of base star chart, it's more than enough.

there's also wukong who, while the immortality provided is transient, still allows for effortless gameplay. and he is acquired via dojo, which any low MR player can just join. 

if DE wants to tackle this, they should shuffle around the bps dropped by bosses, and maybe move wukong out of clan research.

that is, if they even see it as an issue, which i doubt they do. I personally think it'd be better for the game and players, but I don't think it's something too serious that it needs to be addressed ASAP. because end of the day, warframe is an easy game, and even if you don't rely on immortal/hyper tank frames, you'll still complete your missions with relative ease. 

Right but I see 0.01% of Rhino's / Wukongs (now) compared to Revenant. That's the main issue, together with them contributing nothing. Like a Rhino buffs and/or lifts right? Don't get me wrong, there is a deep pool here to take advantage of, Loki, and Ash are real problems (and Octavia and Ivara) but they have real drawbacks too, like if you run Loki you have to be active, otherwise you WILL get wrecked, and same for ash and octavia and a lot of other frames. This is mildly true even for Revenant, but not anywhere near the threshold needed - and I suppose that's the thrust of this post. Like just plz give him a skill that is useful for everyone (and not augment based, because mods & exilus * sh*t).

Now a certain amount of plat investment is needed for Revenant Prime (I seriously doubt these players are are mostly using vanilla Revenant - a big part of the problem honestly, there's almost no grind - it's almost pay-to-win at this point, like really), so at least they have to engage a little, but omg should they be in end-game content? Uh....

 

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

not sure what was going through their minds when designing revenant,

I can kind of get it.  Less so with Mesmer specifically.  But what I really don't get was adding the CD on Mesmer charge loss instead of buffing his other abilities.  (Don't even get me started on their stated reasoning for adding the CD, after making no allowances for the extra vulnerability of other frames that were more fragile and more dependent on CC and more impacted by Eximus 2.0.)  :/ )

You are totally right though.  It's utterly pointless to blame players for DE's mistakes.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

And whats funny about this whole thing is you could just as easily throw a fit for the opposite reason: 

"Slowva is making all the enemies move too slow" 

"Mesa is stealing all the kills" 

"Octavia is turning the ai off no fun" 

"Saryn is nuking the whole map this isnt fun" 

Etc.

Like I said in the OP, there are many ways of cheesing, just none so easy as Revenant. Get Revenant? Good. You can do 100% of the game's content without issue and 99% of it cheesing while relying on other players. He is the pre-eminent cheese-warframe frame - do you disagree with that??? Is it not a problem?? Does it not suck for everyone else carrying him? Hello?

Now to be fair (which you are not) let's examine Loki. Get Loki, you can cheese 99% of this game's content. YES. But does it require engagement? YES. I don't like the issues with invisibility, but at least they have some drawbacks (not as much as I'd personally like but they're there). Other cheese frames? You mention Mesa and Saryn, and for sure they are nukers, Revenant is not a nuker, but are Mesa and Saryn afk do-nothing frames? NO they are not. They require constant engagement. You must do things. Or why are you here? Doing nothing should = no reward. What is the issue?

[CrownOfShadows]

20 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

If you literally go into a public match and literally match with 3 people who are literally doing absolutely nothing but standing there AFK than hey, by all means, leave the squad and solo. Leave the squad and find a new session.

Plz stop with this "just don't play the game" bs

[CrownOfShadows]

23 minutes ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

MR15 MR9 MR16 MR30 MR 69420MLG bruh MR =/= skill.

MR =/= knowledge of game mechanics. 

MR =/= efficacy in a squad.

 

Now. You can come up with whatever arbitrary subjective standard you want for what is and isnt "contributing" but if other players "contributing" is M A N D A T O R Y for you to succeed without falling into a frothy rage than something aint right.

If you have a MR 15 Revenant, and an MR9 Revenant and an MR 12 Revenant in your Netracell group are you going to succeed? Of course. That's not what this post is about. It's about the workload. You will be doing 90% of the work in that mission, because the Revenants don't do sh*t but stay alive and maybe spray their 4 sometimes. Same for Archon missions. Same for every SP mission actually. I'm just tired of doing all the work for people who do none of it, that's all.

I'm not saying MR = talent/sophistication (although there's some merit to that) but I am saying that low level players use Revenant too much and it's too free compared to what they contribute.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

• Revenant allows low level (and low-skill) players to play high level content without contributing anything.
• Revenant himself does not have very many team skills. In fact, if you aren't running his augment, he doesn't contribute anything really. He provides no defense to objectives. His ability dps is typically not great (his ability dps is his 4th and that's it, so if a player hasn't built for that they do jack). Basically, he isn't killing anything or protecting anything, his only team benefit outside of an augment build is his mild cc with his thralls but.....
• Revenant is irritating to play with. This is for the above reasons but also, of course, because of his converting enemies that you are trying to kill. In some respects, this is even more irritating than either Nekros or Nyx, because in those cases you can't damage them - they have full ally status, whereas this is not the case with Revenant, which makes it not only frustrating for the team but frustrating for the Revenant player themselves as they need those thralls.

Ok in order:

This implies a lack of contribution is a problem. And I know in any other game it would be, but I know lots of players on these forums actually enjoy having underpowered newbies on their team because it increases the enemy spawn density

Neither does Excalibur and he does just fine

A little known fact about dead Thralls is, they generate energy pillars that shoot at other enemies. So dead or alive, the Thrall continues to attack the enemies

 

As for the broader perspective, I think Revenant has a pretty cool power set that's only ruined by Mesmer Skin being way too powerful. Yeah it was buffed because Eximus are immune to sleep, but the buff ended up benefiting him under way too many circumstances. How it should work is: he only gets the 0.5 seconds of pure invincibility if the enemy doesn't fall asleep

[Monolake]

Invulnerability with no drawbacks or limitations is just very bad design, it removes any challenge and danger making it harder for designers themselves, it ruins gameplay. No 'endgame' or difficulty is possible while you have easy team-wide invincibility, we've been thru this 10 years ago with Trinity. DE made the same mistake again.

And then on top of it DE keeps on nerfing and limiting other things (ie shards nerf, overguard cap, Hydroid low armor cap etc) while Revenant cheat-skin remains in game... where is any consistency and balancing?
If you want the game to be always easy no-challenge why gimp other things then? Un-nerf the shards, uncap overguard, unnerf Chroma and give Trinity Blessing 100% DR back - shes the support frame after all, unnerf DR mods stacking... the list could go on.

Edited March 3 by Monolake

[trst]

Honestly Revenant needs Mesmer Skin gutted in exchange for having a more worthwhile kit. The gimmicks and mechanics are there but his numbers are too low to really matter and he lacks any good status synergies.

[SDGDen]

15 minutes ago, trst said:

Honestly Revenant needs Mesmer Skin gutted in exchange for having a more worthwhile kit. The gimmicks and mechanics are there but his numbers are too low to really matter and he lacks any good status synergies.

imho, they need to remove the "1 second full invulnerability" from mesmer skin, maybe give it more charges to compensate or give it a relatively high maximum cap of charges since his other abilities can restore charges.

the biggest issue is that thralls will usually instant-die due to teammates, fix that and his kit should already work *a lot* better.

 

 

 

as for the rest of the thread.

yes revenant is a crutch, but he's far from the only one. warframe simply isn't balanced. period. and because of the kinds of responses showcased in this thread and DE listening to those responses, warframe won't BE balanced.

if you're looking for a game where you can actually enjoy the gameplay on public missions, you should go somewhere else. in warframe you'll run into largely two groups of people: those built for full-group carries (who will not leave you with even a crumb of the action) and those who've stacked fully into taking advantage of those carries (which is where most revenant players end up). ironically this issue prevents MOST of the build expression that people tend to tout as being a core selling point from being effective.

 until DE takes the nerf sledgehammer to *most* of the game, your only real option for a balanced game that allows you to play whichever loadout you enjoy with reasonable effectiveness and without being screwed over by randoms is to play solo or quit and go play something else.

 

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

I don't really care since he doesn't do anything annoying like Limbo, Wisp, Nova, etc. I'm happy to just ignore revenants that I get grouped with.