is 75% DR enough?

[_Anise_]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Cap of 90% for armor/shield stripping

I think you still misunderstand, no one is asking for a 90% cap on Tharos strike, (I think?) it was only used as an example of how building for power can cap abilities (100% in the case of Tharos strike)

so a subsumed eclypse at a reduced 50% starting DR (for example) with the same upper cap as the base version could reach 90% DR (the cap) at the cost of going all in on ability strength

which would make it NOT viable to subsume on every single frame

Edited March 15 by _Anise_

[Aerikx]

38 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I think you still misunderstand, no one is asking for a 90% cap on Tharos strike, (I think?) it was only used as an example of how building for power can cap abilities (100% in the case of Tharos strike)

so a subsumed eclypse at a reduced 50% starting DR (for example) with the same upper cap as the base version could reach 90% DR (the cap) at the cost of going all in on ability strength

which would make it NOT viable to subsume on every single frame

Thank you.

I've been rereading my post and wondering if I had somehow explained it badly/wrong.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Cap of 90% for armor/shield stripping

I think you still misunderstand, no one is asking for a 90% cap on Tharos strike, (I think?) it was only used as an example of how building for power can cap abilities (100% in the case of Tharos strike)

I think when I see "Tharos strike" and "90% cap" I get... triggered (?). Sorry for derailing the topic.

ps. I understand how it would work for Eclipse (or whatever it was called) and I agree.

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, Aerikx said:

While I am entirely on board for making Eclipse DR powerful. I just want to state that enemies SHOULD still be able to kill players.

What fun is a game that has no fail condition, threat, or danger to gameplay? 

The difference between 75% DR and 90% DR is the speed at which they kill you. With the former, you die extremely quickly (often faster than you can respond), whereas with the latter you generally have plenty of time to respond to incoming damage spikes and GTFO to relative safety.

[trst]

10 hours ago, Hexerin said:

75% DR will not be enough to make health tanking builds viable on the frames you'd want Eclipse on for its DR. Full stop, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about (or are comparing to normal star chart, which is not relevant for balance discussions).

Source: Myself, a Trinity lifer. Link is 75% DR, so my natural gameplay already tells me what I need to know to answer this thread's question accurately and factually. If it wasn't for Blessing granting additional survivability, Trinity would not function with a health tanking build.

I don't think anyone is trying to claim that Eclipse alone is enough to make health tanking viable. But also frame builds don't exist in a vacuum.

In the case of Trinity sure 75% DR alone might not be enough but if you put Eclipse on top of that Trinity ends up with 93% DR, factoring in her base armor and she has 95% DR, and if you threw a stacked Adaptation in on top of all that she'd have 99.5% DR vs those damage types. 

Just in general Eclipse plus Adaptation alone is 97% DR before armor and with base armor that ranges from 98-99% DR.

And when just considering Tenno Shields for how it works on Shield Gating builds Eclipse alone is 87% DR and with Adaptation it's 98% DR.

 

Now in comparison to another Helminth option, Defy, even the squishiest frames get up to 74% DR with Defy fully stacked. But on all frames Eclipse + base armor is more total DR than Defy + Base Armor plus all the other caveats Defy has.

[Tiltskillet]

10 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Revenants Thrall ability does. And strips overguard *chuckles* also gives you a slave.

Well we were talking about things that mitigate the damage to player Overguard.  Unless you're saying that Enthrall strips player Overguard somehow?  Which would be pretty funny.

When I try using Enthrall on an eximus with Overguard in the Sim, I'm not able to target it, and I wasn't able to get the beta thrall mechanic to work on it either.  So I'd like to know more details if that's what you're talking about.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

53 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Well we were talking about things that mitigate the damage to player Overguard.  Unless you're saying that Enthrall strips player Overguard somehow?  Which would be pretty funny.

When I try using Enthrall on an eximus with Overguard in the Sim, I'm not able to target it, and I wasn't able to get the beta thrall mechanic to work on it either.  So I'd like to know more details if that's what you're talking about.

I am aware, i appologise, i wrote that way to early in the morning pre-coffee before going to work and i wrote it like an idiot.

 

23 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Ancient Healer Specter aura do reduce incoming damage to Overguard directly.

What i meant was, this effect, is transfered over when you break overguard from an eximus ancient healer (not just a specter), and use enthrall or Nyx mind control on it. The effect of reducing OG dmg is given to the player.

(It might be a bug and not intended, i am not aware but i've noticed i take significantly less OG dmg when im paired for example with a frost who can apply it when i was on my Nyx. After testing with a rev without using mesmer skin for testing purposes, the same results happened.

[Hexerin]

9 hours ago, trst said:

I don't think anyone is trying to claim that Eclipse alone is enough to make health tanking viable. But also frame builds don't exist in a vacuum.

In the case of Trinity sure 75% DR alone might not be enough but if you put Eclipse on top of that Trinity ends up with 93% DR, factoring in her base armor and she has 95% DR, and if you threw a stacked Adaptation in on top of all that she'd have 99.5% DR vs those damage types. 

Just in general Eclipse plus Adaptation alone is 97% DR before armor and with base armor that ranges from 98-99% DR.

And when just considering Tenno Shields for how it works on Shield Gating builds Eclipse alone is 87% DR and with Adaptation it's 98% DR.

 

Now in comparison to another Helminth option, Defy, even the squishiest frames get up to 74% DR with Defy fully stacked. But on all frames Eclipse + base armor is more total DR than Defy + Base Armor plus all the other caveats Defy has.

Adaptation and armor are assumed when talking about health tanking builds, that should be obvious and thus not needed to be mentioned in discussion.

[Aerikx]

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Adaptation and armor are assumed when talking about health tanking builds, that should be obvious and thus not needed to be mentioned in discussion.

You're not wrong, but to be fair...

Not everyone has Adaptation. Significantly more players than you might think don't know it even exists.

[trst]

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Adaptation and armor are assumed when talking about health tanking builds, that should be obvious and thus not needed to be mentioned in discussion.

Except they do need to be mentioned as the 75% from Eclipse is not just 75% in the context of using it to make frames tankier. Especially as the point that keeps getting brought up is that it should remain at 90-95% or be moddable to hit that point except that 75% is already enough for a build to exceed 95% on any frame. Also I assume most players aren't considering the innate DR shields have and thus aren't considering those interactions with Shield Gating either.

Also your statement of Eclipse not being enough to enable health tanking builds assuming Adaptation/armor or not doesn't matter as it's still false. As the 98-99% DR with those three is enough to make a health tanking build. Yes it does still need the component of some form of health sustain but at this point that might as well also be assumed since the alternatives still require energy sustain either in maintaining ability up-time or ability spam for shields.

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, trst said:

Except they do need to be mentioned as the 75% from Eclipse is not just 75% in the context of using it to make frames tankier. Especially as the point that keeps getting brought up is that it should remain at 90-95% or be moddable to hit that point except that 75% is already enough for a build to exceed 95% on any frame. Also I assume most players aren't considering the innate DR shields have and thus aren't considering those interactions with Shield Gating either.

Also your statement of Eclipse not being enough to enable health tanking builds assuming Adaptation/armor or not doesn't matter as it's still false. As the 98-99% DR with those three is enough to make a health tanking build. Yes it does still need the component of some form of health sustain but at this point that might as well also be assumed since the alternatives still require energy sustain either in maintaining ability up-time or ability spam for shields.

Look, I'm not going to argue with you on this. You're simply wrong here, backed up by extensive actual gameplay experience showing you being wrong. Paper theory does not equate to actual practice. If DE doesn't allow Eclipse to scale up to the 90% DR modern standard, it will simply not be worth the Helminth injection over other options (such as shield gating) on the overwhelming majority of frames that might have considered it.

Edited March 16 by Hexerin

[trst]

58 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Look, I'm not going to argue with you on this. You're simply wrong here, backed up by extensive actual gameplay experience showing you being wrong. Paper theory does not equate to actual practice. If DE doesn't allow Eclipse to scale up to the 90% DR modern standard, it will simply not be worth the Helminth injection over other options (such as shield gating) on the overwhelming majority of frames that might have considered it.

Except this is literally how the math works out. Your experience doesn't cause DR to not stack. Also in the situation of assuming Adaptation is in use the difference between 75% and 90% Eclipse is 98% DR vs 99% DR.

In the end Eclipse will, in-fact, be a simple zero investment method of adding extra survivability onto any frame. As an option that doesn't need to be spammed nor heavily invested into stat/mod wise. The only question that remains is if players will look at that 75% and assume it's bad because they refuse to look at the math.

[Monolake]

75% DR is only 4x mitigation, 90% is 10x mitigation

So 75% alone is low and wont save you (and that is why Trinity Blessing is hopelessly outdated and unused)

But you can use it on a frame who is already tanky and has damage mitigation skill, so extra 4x on top could be good... but sort of redundant, since health tanking quickly becomes useless getting outscaled by enemy damage.

[Lord_Drod]

What I don't like about Warframe is how these system just don't go well with each other.  If I did slap on a bunch of armor and DR, adaptation, aerial damage DR etc, I'd still like brief respite.  Why?  Because its awesome to get your shield back.  I'm just used to rolling and getting it back now, and casting an ability, bulleting away etc.  So if I'm still doing that, I wouldn't even really get the value of the armor, since it has no effect on shields, when I think it should.

It took a while to get used to shield gating, but I mostly don't miss all the extra investment health tanking cost, which freed up a lot more slots for whatever I wanted to do, which ended up being a faster aerial style or having more offensive power for your frame if its an ability killer.

The murmur, as some have mentioned aren't a very difficult faction overall, as far as dealing damage to you from range, so even an archgun equip can go a long ways when you move around quickly.  There's plenty of ways to deal with a necramech and in archimedea, you'll need just one of those for disruption.  Even using your own mech isn't a bad option! 

So only assassinate solo could be a problem, where you just have to make it through the first phase, but I don't anticipate it being harder than earning my hands were.  As far as normal missions, it kinda depends on the frame and your playstyle, but I'd rather rely on status spreading, grouping, CC etc, than being able to take damage.  Enemies get deleted so fast as well, so in squads, you aren't even under too much aggro consistently, where multiple DR abilities/mods etc are beneficial.